Goths "more likely to self-harm"., The BBC gets all observant. Options

[Wookiee]

This is the neeeewwws.

Up to 14% of teenagers self-harm, but half of the 25 who described themselves as Goths had done so, reported the British Medical Journal.

Most self-harmed before becoming a Goth, suggesting they chose the subculture because they felt their emotional distress would be understood.

Goths favour black clothing

Crikey! Whoda thunkit?

[Felander]

This is the neeeewwws.

Up to 14% of teenagers self-harm, but half of the 25 who described themselves as Goths had done so, reported the British Medical Journal.

Most self-harmed before becoming a Goth, suggesting they chose the subculture because they felt their emotional distress would be understood.

Goths favour black clothing

Crikey! Whoda thunkit?

Whoa. I applaud the BBC's powers of perception.

[pgrmdave]

I think it's interesting that it's so much more common in Goth culture - I had assumed that it was widespread throughout cultures and was merely more accepted, thus more talked about, in Goth culture.

[I_am_the_best]

I think it may just be people wanting to fit into the 'goth' stereotype and think that they need to be miserable hence self-harm.

[Novander]

New Scientist took a slightly different approach to the report: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8996...e-children.html

[Phyllis]

Only 25 participants felt strongly associated with goth culture.

Well that makes the results not even worth publishing. If I did an essay on that study, I'd probably get severely marked down (if not failed entirely) for using such crappy statistics.

I really hate when people publish such things as if they are fact, and add only a minor warning about the size of the study. Though, at least they mentioned the size at all. Most don't. So they'd probably get a D+ and a note saying "See me after class."

[pgrmdave]

The person who did the actual research did make mention of that:

“Rather than posing a risk, it's also possible that by belonging to the goth subculture, young people are gaining valuable social and emotional support from their peers.” But he cautions: “However, the study was based on small numbers and replication is needed to confirm our results.”

I think it is worth mentioning simply because the statistics were so different - 14% overall vs. 50% who identified as goth. It's possible that it was simply error, and not unlikely, however, it does warrent notice.

[Phyllis]

Yes, I know it was mentioned by the person who did the research. But it was a very short sentence in comparison to the rest of the article, likely to be overlooked by most.

My annoyance was mainly directed at the media and their irritating tendency to publish stories about studies that have little to no evidence as if they are confirmed fact.

They could have worded it as "Goths may be more likely to self-harm" and I would not have such a problem with it. Instead, the headline reads "Goths 'more likely to self-harm'." This gives the impression that it is proven fact. But like I said, at least the mentioned the size of the study. A lot of times when statistics are published in a news article, they don't do that.

I'm very critical of statistics when they appear in the media. It really is a pet peeve of mine, because it contributes to people going around, saying "I heard blah blah blah" and a bunch of people become misinformed. The stuff in the news report is pretty obvious stuff for anyone without their head stuck in the sand, but misuse of statistics is just irritating to me for some reason.

[pgrmdave]

What bothers me most about it is that the entire article seems to say that goths are a really good supportive group that help people cope and stop cutting themselves, but the headline leads you to the opposite conclusion.

[trunks_girl26]

Well, the title is mainly used to draw people in to read it, right? And as most people know, bad news is the most eagerly heard, so logically, they're not going to use a title that would potentially lessen the amount of people reading the article (I mean, look at the attention it's getting right now, even).

Yes, it's underhanded, it's sneaky, and it's not truthful......but you read the article.

(Of course, this now makes me want to write an article on puppies and chipmunks playing together, and then titling it, Puppies Attacked by Rabid Chipmunks, just to see how many people would read it.)

[Astarael]

The misleading statistics (and title) are definitely annoying. If you read the article in depth and note the sentence about the study group size then it's better, but people who just read a few sentences and then spread the snippets that they read are just going to make more people uninformed about what the data really means.

[Izzy]

I'm pretty sure if you interveiwed 1,258 teens who described themselves as goths, the amount of them who self-harm would be around 14%

Glasgow researchers surveyed 1,258 teens at the ages of 11, 13, 15, and 17.

Since when is 11 considered teen? Not that I'm complaining

[Wookiee]

The misleading statistics (and title) are definitely annoying. If you read the article in depth and note the sentence about the study group size then it's better, but people who just read a few sentences and then spread the snippets that they read are just going to make more people uninformed about what the data really means.

Yeah, but it's funny.

It would be funnier if the headline was "Goffs", and more relevant if it read "Emos". Damn those dirty emos.

[gothictheysay]

Yeah, devils_daughter, but you can't know for sure. Gross estimating doesn't do you much good in the real world.

(Of course, this now makes me want to write an article on puppies and chipmunks playing together, and then titling it, Puppies Attacked by Rabid Chipmunks, just to see how many people would read it.)

DOOOOOO IIIIIT

[Izzy]

Yeah, devils_daughter, but you can't know for sure. Gross estimating doesn't do you much good in the real world.

Is there like a way to contact the BBC, if so I'm going to ask them to survey exactly 1,258 Goths, and then once they get the percentage of how many of them self-harm, add it to the article. That's the only way we'll know for sure.

I showed the article to one of my teacher -my favorite teacher!- yesterday (only to find out later she had already read it ) and we got into a discussion about how cutting isn't the only way to self-harm yourself. You can also do it by throwing up your food, starving yourself, uhm..and some other stuff that I forgot.

[Phyllis]

No, it isn't "the only way we'll know for sure," devil's daughter.

For one: the BBC publishes news. They are not psychologists, or even statisticians. They are not professionally qualified to conduct such a study, any more than an lawyer is qualified to prescribe medicine.

I'm just...going to leave it at that before my mind completely breaks.

[pgrmdave]

Maybe someone here could do a simple, informal study - find a few different group of goths online and ask them to fill out a survey including whether or not they've ever self-harmed, and whether or not it was before, during, or after they considered themselves to be goths.

[Astarael]

That would be interesting, but you'd have to get a really broad spectrum of goth groups to get any sort of data that made sense. I'd still be more interested in a large statistician-conducted survey, though. The BBC would likely wind up doing it by all the goth in one sort of groups or something, and that would skew the resutls badly.

[pgrmdave]

Well, my thinking was to find a few different goth groups online, and ask them to fill out a simple survey - of course there would be problems (it would only be goths online, it would most likely be a small survey, and it would most likely be of only 4-10 different groups of goths) but it would provide a basic idea - if the numbers are at about 14% give or take a few then we would know that the original study was simply a fluke - if, however, we found that it was much higher, then the original study's findings would seem more reasonable.

[Phyllis]

No, you wouldn't know that the original findings were simply a fluke.

There are a lot more factors than the size of the study and how participants are selected (it takes a lot longer than it sounds). Such as the wording of the questions. A person can answer a question differently based on how it's worded.

Additionally, when performing the study online, what is to stop someone from responding multiple times and skewing the results?

Neither we nor the BBC have the tools or the expertise to conduct such a study and draw any sort of meaningful conclusions (meaning something that can be published rather than just handed in as a project for psychology class).

[pgrmdave]

I know there are many more factors, but I wasn't really planning on doing a serious scientific study - just a quick, simple study that will provide a very rough idea of it. And, while it's not perfect, you can log ip addresses to help ensure that each person only gets one response. I'm not suggesting that it would be publishable, but I think that it would be a place to start. I know there are many more factors, but I wasn't really planning on doing a serious scientific study - just a quick, simple study that will provide a very rough idea of it. And, while it's not perfect, you can log ip addresses to help ensure that each person only gets one response. I'm not suggesting that it would be publishable, but I think that it would be a place to start.

[Izzy]

You could try making it a poll on Matazone? That way people could only answer once.

[pgrmdave]

Ah - but we don't want a simple poll, because we need at least three questions to be answered - Do you, or have you at any time committed self-inflicted harm? Do you, or have you at any time considered yourself a goth? If both those questions are yes, did you harm yourself before, during, or after considering yourself goth?

[Izzy]

Ah - but we don't want a simple poll, because we need at least three questions to be answered - Do you, or have you at any time committed self-inflicted harm? Do you, or have you at any time considered yourself a goth? If both those questions are yes, did you harm yourself before, during, or after considering yourself goth?

I thought we only want Goths to vote in this one?

I was think someone would bring that up. That's why you can do it like this. Poll question: Do you self harm. Possible answers: No. Yes, but I quit. Yes, But I started before I considered myself Goth. Yes, but I started after I considered myself Goth. Or something like that. And hopefully people will be mature with it, and only vote if the actually consider themselves Goth.

[CrazyFooIAintGet...]

what if they consider themselves goth, but have no goth friends? Also some people take their gothness more serious than others.. some people wont consider themselves goths but could be by other people. I dont think its as simple as one poll based on the participants opinion of gothyness.

A poll on here might be interesting, but i dont think you could make any sort of conclusion from it. I think theres already one on cutting here somewhere though.