What on earth are you supposed to do in the face of religious bonkers- Options

[Mata]

I'm sure many of you will have heard of the West Boro Church and their 'God hates fags' campaign. Of all the delightful things, they're now bringing it to Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...-UK-picket.html

(Apparently, Barack Obama is the antichrist.)

What's the best way to counteract this kind of thing? I'd love to swap Bible quotes with them, but I just don't know if you can try arguing with people who will clearly pick and choose what they wish to listen to and what they don't.

I also wonder: are these people happy? Maybe their lives are made easier when there's a simple line between what's evil and what's glorious.

[pgrmdave]

The only thing worse than a dumb bully is a smart one. Make no mistake, Fred Phelps is a very smart man who knows exactly what he is doing. I don't understand why he does it, but I suspect that for some reason, he likes the attention. The best thing that could happen, in my opinion, would be a total boycott by all media of his church. No interviews, no news stories, no pictures. Take down his wikipedia article, remove the stories written about him on the internet. Make him have no voice.

[leopold]

Unfortunately, freedom of speech does come with the drawback that you get over-zealous nutters who abuse it and cause a nuisance. And as much as anyone (myself included) would like to counter their skewed view with some rational discussion, as you already say, they won't listen to anything you have to say unless they agree with it.

We know these guys are trying to metaphorically hit us in the face with their dogma. I'd just ask them why they feel it necessary to save my life, point out it's not their life to save and walk away. I find the "Yeah, whatever" approach works just fine too; if they won't listen to my viewpoint, then why should I listen to theirs?

So perhaps that's the answer. Just don't give them any air-time. If they see there's no point preaching to people who won't listen then they might just bugger off.

[CrazyFooIAintGet...]

Freedom of speech should not apply to hate speech.

I don't think you can just ignore them and they'll go away. Arguing with them is just going to make them shout louder. I think the best way to counteract them is by taking part in counter-protests. There was one recently where a bunch of people showed up with nicer signs like "god loves everyone" which was pretty cool

Also: pirates!

[Yannick]

Wait 'til 2013. Start with the "I told you so's", throw in some God-paradoxes, ask why he 'hates amputees', point out exactly how evil he is (while wearing this t-shirt), and end it with there being no purpose in a God that doesn't interfere with your life and a savior that only comes around every few millennia (after going through the ineffectiveness of prayer and explaining that the world would be exactly as it is today regardless if a god started it off or not.)

Assuming that fails because the person you're explaining it to is too thick-headed, either go into vast detail about how moronic s/he is, or walk away.

[Rubium]

Having only seen the Louis Theroux's documentary on the West Boro Church I'm confused as to whether they actually have supporters in the UK? It would appear unlikely that they would even allow this "group" of uncouth ruffians into the country. unless its got a bigger following than I thought, in which case its a very scary world out there.

[Daria]

Having only seen the Louis Theroux's documentary on the West Boro Church I'm confused as to whether they actually have supporters in the UK? It would appear unlikely that they would even allow this "group" of uncouth ruffians into the country. unless its got a bigger following than I thought, in which case its a very scary world out there.

There are plenty of $cientology "churches" in the UK. There is the BNP. There's plenty of space for nutcases to follow Phelps.

[Smiler]

They are amazingly out there and I can easily see some people in the UK buying it and getting involved for various reasons, right or wrong. The difficulty lies in that as a belief set it's no less valid than anyone else's in the wider umbrella of adoptive Christianity. Yes it's far more extreme, contentiously vocal and not entirely without blatent hypocrisy that's conveniently muted or brushed off by church members but in picking and choosing what they want they're still only following suit and adding to all the other variations. The worst thing is that the extremities are what they thrive on for attention to get the message out and it works. Thread = case in point.

Having only seen the Louis Theroux's documentary on the West Boro Church I'm confused as to whether they actually have supporters in the UK? It would appear unlikely that they would even allow this "group" of uncouth ruffians into the country. unless its got a bigger following than I thought, in which case its a very scary world out there.

Louis Theroux's documentary is good but I think Keith Allen's is perhaps, just a touch, better. Covers a lot of the same ground as you'd expect but Keith Allen is well known for his atheistic view and he's also a very well read man who knows the Bible and in it isn't afraid of chalenging points rather than just note them. It's actually quite interesting to see the relationship to's and fro's with certain family members.

[Felander]

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Mata]

It would be nice to walk up to one of them with their 'God hates fags' signs, read, nod, and say 'Yeah, I hate smoking too'.

Anyway, that's a fair point that most of the rest of Christianity ignores inconsistencies in their lives whne compared to the teachings of Christ. What that makes me wonder is just how far do you have to stray from Christ's teachings before you can no longer call yourself Christian?

Some would say that the following is key to his message:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
—Matthew 5:38-42, NIV

Clearly this isn't subscribed to by many Christians, but they are at least taught that it's a good idea. The WBC seem to preach a message that is in complete contradiction to Christ's message, so can they really be counted as Christians?

[Phyllis]

The best way to counteract it? Easy. Do what these kids did.



Phelps and co. might not even get past immigration. I read somewhere or other that they were turned away at the border in Canada not long ago, where they were going to protest outside a funeral. They stood on the US side and shouted at Canada. I'm pretty sure if they were turned away, we wouldn't be able to hear them across the Atlantic.

[Mata]

I do like the plan of 'the longer you protest, the more money we raise for causes that you hate'. I wonder how well that worked out for them? That's got to give you some pretty divided feelings: should they protest longer and put the other people into poverty, or should they stop as soon as possible? Tricky.

I'm still amazed that the WBC's protests are legal. They're pretty threatening, and I could've sworn that sort of thing is frowned on. Do they get away with it on the grounds of religious freedom in the US? In the UK we've got laws against inciting hatred and violence, and the WBC's slogans are probably covered by that, but does religious freedom in America give you the right to say anything you want (just so long as you don't fly planes into buildings when no-one listens)?

[Yannick]

I'm still amazed that the WBC's protests are legal. They're pretty threatening, and I could've sworn that sort of thing is frowned on. Do they get away with it on the grounds of religious freedom in the US? In the UK we've got laws against inciting hatred and violence, and the WBC's slogans are probably covered by that, but does religious freedom in America give you the right to say anything you want (just so long as you don't fly planes into buildings when no-one listens)?

Pretty much. As long as you aren't at school, where your rights are limited ( ), you can say anything you want. However, if the protest actually is violent, then that goes against the 'peaceful gathering/protesting' that the first amendment entitles you to, and can lead to fining/arrest. On the other hand, if the protesters are peaceful, but the people around them are not, the people, rather than the protesters will be removed. (One time a rally surrounded some mayor's house, middle of the night, and the neighbors started throwing eggs at them. Police were notified, and the neighbors were charged.)

[Daria]

Woo hoo! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/7898972.stm?lss

[Faerieryn]

I show my year 10s a piece that Sky News did a few years back called "Inside the Church of Hate" which I got from these forums. The group I showed it to this year took 10 minutes of a 15 minute film to work out what "fags" meant!! Aside from that though I got some very interesting comment from them. Namely "How dare they!"

[pgrmdave]

Well, as per the legal status - like I said, they are very smart. They know exactly how far they can push legally, and they know how to bury people who bring suits against them under years of paperwork, how to appeal their cases, etc...

And remember, there are many passages of the bible that support what they think, selective reading can go both ways. While I think that the whole "be nice to everybody" is the central message, I can understand there are highly flawed arguments in favor of other readings.

[Mata]

There is definitely some teaching in the Bible that is against homosexuality, and I don't think that there is anything that is explicitly in support of it. If a person were to follow all the teachings in the Bible to the letter then I would have to accept that their choice of being anti-gay was consistent with the teachings of their faith; however, when people pick and choose what teachings they want to follow it comes across as a justification for their prejudices.

[Eli]

^ Izzy: I hate those "peaceful" protests they have downtown, its a bit creepy to drive down the road and see a big sign saying "KKK assembly, next left"

It would be nice to walk up to one of them with their 'God hates fags' signs, read, nod, and say 'Yeah, I hate smoking too'.

Aww..Mata already said it. I hate when people use the word fag..and gay. Their meanings are overly abused on homosexuals. I mean who wants to be called a "Happy cigarette" ?

(Haven't been on forever, miss being informed)

In my personal opinion I don't understand why these people even bother with this sort of protesting. I'm not agreeing with their cause, but if their minds are really set on "GOD" as the answer to everything, then why bother with homosexuals at all if you think they're going to got to hell anyways? I'm not to big on the bible, but I agree with its moral sense. If god says to love all creatures, then why contradict his teachings if your so devoted to following his (FALSE) works? They're all hypocrites and no matter how smart they may be, there still morons and will always be morons in my eyes.

[Yannick]

Haha, I remember when the KKK and a bunch of black people were protesting on the same day, and it was just total chaos. Would definitely not want to be there. Has anyone noticed how people get upset over everything these days? Personally, I'm not really a fan of being PC (though I still don't call people 'gay' or 'retarded'.) Just say what you want, and if people don't like it, they can leave because there's no such thing as a right to not be offended. ..But I forgot what I'm talking about this.

Also, zomg, Eli = non-theist and religion basher now? ..That's new?

Any chance that if these guys get stuck at border patrol in the UK, when they decide to come back to the US, they're denied access?

[Eli]

Also, zomg, Eli = non-theist and religion basher now? ..That's new?

Heh..I've come to my senses?

[Yannick]

Heh, guess we won't be doing that "turn away, count to 10" thing much anymore.

[Faerieryn]

As far as I am aware there is nothing against homosexuality itself, just the act of homosexual sex (and between two men- I don't think it mentions women at all). This would suggest that it is indeed possible to be homosexual and follow the bible. I'm not sure though, I could be wrong

[Phyllis]

I've heard that some Biblical scholars think the "thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman blah blah" line is about homosexual rape, not consensual sex. It was all the rage back then to rape everyone, men included, when you pillaged a town.

And Izzy, Daria already posted an article saying they've been banned from the UK. You guys have to keep them over there for now.

[Yannick]

And Izzy, Daria already posted an article saying they've been banned from the UK. You guys have to keep them over there for now.

Ugh. Let's get them to protest in Iraq or something.

[Phyllis]

Ugh. Let's get them to protest in Iraq or something.

Uh, haven't we done enough damage over there without inflicting Fred Phelps on them?

Let's keep our loonies to ourselves, please!