Patriotism, The Euro And More Options

[Polocrunch]

The issue of the Euro has reared its head very little during the election campaign in the UK, though I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because Michael Howard doesn't want to associate himself with the disaster that was the Tories at the last election (remember that awful 'Keep The Pound' campaign?), maybe the other parties think it's a bit of a vote-loser. We may discuss that later, but my main question for this thread is as follows:

How much do you value your country's independence and sovereignty? Would you care if part, or most, of it was given up for various reasons? Much of Europe has decided to give away some of its sovereignty in order to get the benefits of a economic and political security, but would you, or do you, accept it for your country? Would you support leaving the UN to preserve your country's independence; would you support your State from leaving the Union to escape the clutches of the federal government of America; would you try to get Britain out of the EU before we are sucked into a federal superstate? Would it matter to you?

Personally, I can't see what all the fuss is about preserving our sovereignty and 'identity'. Did you know that most of our 'identities' were invented during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries? They're just constructs; imaginings. I can't understand why people are so attached to notions of 'England', or 'America', or 'Texas', when there are plenty of places that are extremely similar - if not identical - to these. And I really don't get why people are so attached to individual items or features - like a currency - or to landscapes - like the English countryside, which actually looks an awful lot like the Irish countryside, and which is mostly covered in horrible suburbs and chavs.

Perhaps someone could explain to me what it's all about. In the meantime, give us your musings on national identity, patriotism, the EU, the UN and whatever. I'd like to hear what people say, and especially what justifications they give.

[Novander]

I'm Welsh. I'm very proud to be Welsh. I'm sure that if I actually lived in Wales, I wouldn't be half as proud. But I'm glad that Wales is part of Britain. And when Britain decides one way or another if we want to be American or European, I'll be glad we're part of something even bigger. And when America and Europe kiss and make up, I'll be celebrating along with everyone else. And when the entire planet is ruled by a just and fair Internet God and everbody speaks the International language of Spinaglishese (a mixture of Spanish, English, Binary and Chinese), I'll finally be truly happy.

But I'll still be Welsh, and I'll still love the Welsh countryside.

Not because its any different from the countryside anywhere else. In fact, its not as good as some places. I've seen bigger mountains and greener hillsides in America, but they don't make me think 'home'.

See, I think we have a national identity because we want to feel we have a home; somewhere comfortable, familiar and safe.

So in answer to your question, I will gladly give up being British and become European as soon as it feels 'safe' economically, socially and few other 'lly's that I can't think of at the moment. Soon after that it would become familiar, and finally comfortable and then it would be 'home'.

Its happening already. With the internet, and this 'golden age of communication' social barriers are being taken down and familiarity is already growing. Hooray for that.

[Polocrunch]

Hmm, so your nationalism is the nationalism of the childhood home? For instance, I enjoy my home, my family and the area in which I live because I have lived here a long time and have good memories associated with it. And I know it really well and feel safe and secure here, like I did when I was a kid and didn't have to concern myself with my well-being. That makes sense, I suppose. What I'd love to know is how those feelings of comfort, familiarity and security can get turned into the ugly sort of feelings that were most horrifically displayed in the mid-20th century.

[zivane]

Hmm, being an American and having traveled a teansy bit, I'd say that even with the European Union and the United States of America in their joining of countries or states, or what have you, most areas still keep most of their identity as in cultures, food, accents. Then again, I'd be happy with one great big union of the whole world... but that's a rather silly idea when you could possibly rule your own country, right?

For the most part, I'm very unpatriotic and the way that I'm still convinced I was born in the wrong country (I decided that when I was 6, I should've been born elsewhere, no where in particular, just elsewhere). I can see why people are nationalistic though. It's like being part of a team. With goals. And a future. And set rules and customs and things to do that are all very clearly defined and everyone knows where everyone else stands in relation to eachother. Becoming a little melting pot can be scary if you've got a low openness factor (mccrae and costa, five factor method).

If people really did want to stand by eachother despite cultural differences and rulings, they wouldn't have to be afraid of losing their identity so much. Although I can tell just how American I am when I'm not in America.

[Jonman]

I grew up from 6 onwards in a fairly unremarkable place (Purley) near a fairly crap place (Croydon), near a fairly marvellous place (London). I feel no bond to any of those places because I grew up there. I love London, but that's more about what it offers me as an adult.

As for this country, I disagree with too much about it to feel any sense of nationalistic pride. And the Royal Family are a joke to me. So there's no issues of 'sovereignty' for me.

Oddly, the one place I do feel drawn to and proud of is Seattle. Odd, because it's in a country which (especially currently) has many things about it (politically) that I abhor. Actually, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Seattle is fiercely Democratic, full of ex-hippies, and is very very laidback. It's pretty far from the gun-toting, truck-drivin good ole' boys version of America.

So I have no patriotism. I tend to think that patriotism is a ludicrous concept anyway. By all means agree with your country's actions or policies, but patriotism seems all-too-often to be blind, with no good reason to support your country, other than it being your country, which, let's face it, was an accident of birth, and nothing more.

As for Europe, I can't help but feel that as the world moves on, we have to move with it. The British Empire is long-gone now, and we're just not a big enough country, politically or financially to go it alone. The US will continue it's attempts at hegemony, and there's going to be a growing Asian bloc. If we don't join Europe, we risk being sidelined, and falling by the wayside. The only other option I see is to become the 51st State, which I think is an idea that would have little popular appeal either side of the Atlantic. If nothing else, perhaps the EU could rein in our government a little, and prevent another monumental cock-up like Iraq. Likewise for the UN.

Meandering on from that point, I'm also worried by the 'special relationship' we have with the US, again, with the whole Iraq debacle. To be frank, I'm not sure what's in it for us.

I'm unsure on the Euro, as Britian is one of the stronger economies in Europe, and my inexpert knowledge of economics thinks that that could drag our economy down. The flip side of that coin is to say that while the economic impact of joining the euro could be rubbish in the short term, it'll provide stability in the long term. The upshot is that I don't know enough about economics to make an informed decision on that one, but I sure as hell couldn't give a flying pig whether we have a picture of an old wrinkly bird with a metal hat on the money.


/mental wanderings

[zivane]

England should never give into the Euro... British currency is just worth so much nowadays. ^.^

[CommieBastard]

I agree with the Monster Raving Loonies on this one. We shouldn't join the Euro - we should invite other countries to JOIN THE POUND.

[Jonman]

I agree with the Monster Raving Loonies on this one. We shouldn't join the Euro - we should invite other countries to JOIN THE POUND.

The French would be well up for that, eh?

[gothictheysay]

we should invite other countries to JOIN THE POUND.

I don't think our government would even think of it, but I personally would love to! ;D

[Moosh]

To quote Terry Pratchett on this, in a quote from one of his books (Monstrous Regiment) that pretty much sums up what I consider the stupididty of mindless patriotism. (that's not all patriotism, that's mindless patriotism)

"So... if our people are groophar stupid, then we should fight for groophar stupidity because it's our stupidity"

*groophar being a troll word that means f*cking

[zivane]

I'm confuzzled.

But... if countries joined the pound... uhh, the pound would start to lose it's value, ne?

[pgrmdave]

I love the idea of America, it is my home, and I would defend it if my country needed me. I love New Jersey (as my friends can attest to) and I would do what I could to make it a better place. I love NYC, the size of it, and the people in it. The gruffness of it and the feeling you get when you are there, of being alone in masses of people, anonymous. I also support the sovereignty of these governments, I would not want to see our government changed, or have our power restricted. I support the U.N. to a point, if we need to go to war for the best interests of the world and ourselves then we should do it whether or not we have support from the United Nations. Our currency draws us togeather as a nation, and it is a source of pride for us, especially when I see foreign currency and it looks too colorful, ours is green, and distinctly American. And if the whole world were to move to a single currency, I don't think that it would really change the value of anything, merely stabilize values across borders, individual areas of the world would still be more or less economically sound than others.

[Jonman]

I support the U.N. to a point, if we need to go to war for the best interests of the world and ourselves then we should do it whether or not we have support from the United Nations. 

But that's the point of the UN. If going to war is in the interests of the world, then there will be support from the UN.

Our currency draws us togeather as a nation, and it is a source of pride for us, especially when I see foreign currency and it looks too colorful, ours is green, and distinctly American. 

I've often wondered how blind American's cope. Each bank note in the UK is a different size, as well as being a different colour, so blind, and almost-blind folk can tell them apart. There's no danger of mistaking a fiver for a fifty, something I've done on numerous occasions in the US.

[CommieBastard]

But that's the point of the UN. If going to war is in the interests of the world, then there will be support from the UN.

... the UN being saintly and infallible. And having never, say, ignored genocides, or ignored its influential members blatantly flouting its rules.

[Mata]

I've often wondered how blind American's cope. Each bank note in the UK is a different size, as well as being a different colour, so blind, and almost-blind folk can tell them apart. There's no danger of mistaking a fiver for a fifty, something I've done on numerous occasions in the US.

I know this! When they first get them from the bank they fold them in certain ways, eg. length-ways for a fifty, diagonally for a ten, etc. Obviously they do have to rely on the people at the bank not being naughty, but if you can't trust the people in banks... Well, then our whole system of society will topple.

[zivane]

I could ask my mum about that one. She just always knew how many of what she had on her at all times. *shrug*

[Jonman]

I've often wondered how blind American's cope. Each bank note in the UK is a different size, as well as being a different colour, so blind, and almost-blind folk can tell them apart. There's no danger of mistaking a fiver for a fifty, something I've done on numerous occasions in the US.

I know this! When they first get them from the bank they fold them in certain ways, eg. length-ways for a fifty, diagonally for a ten, etc. Obviously they do have to rely on the people at the bank not being naughty, but if you can't trust the people in banks... Well, then our whole system of society will topple.

Which is fine until you pay for a $2 item with a $20 note and get 6 notes in return, three of which are $5 and three $1.

[Jonman]

But that's the point of the UN. If going to war is in the interests of the world, then there will be support from the UN.

... the UN being saintly and infallible. And having never, say, ignored genocides, or ignored its influential members blatantly flouting its rules.

Ah, but it's influential members flouting the rules IS in the interests of the world.

...

From the point of view of those members of course.

Nah, you're right. Of course it's a buggerred system, but it's the best one we've got right now.