Goth or not? labels/tribes?, whats what and does it matter? Options

[Matthew]

Ok, I'm sure I'm gonna take flak for some of this, but...

Many moons ago, when I were a lad, there seemed to be all kinda little tribes and depending on what you were into, it was a good gauge of who you were.

Now, I'm not really trying to argue that we need labels or small minded people judging us by our appearance or tastes, but there seemed to be more of a community feel to it all.. I mean, we're kind of a community right?

This is what I mean:

Goths: likes poetry, haunted castles, wearing black, back-combed hair, the cure, the sisters...

Crusties: likes dreadlocks, tye-dyed clothes, fire breathing, the levellers, new model army...

Cyberpunks: likes poopers, caffine, hot wiring anything, bleepy music...

Townies: generally try to aggravate anyone not the same as them...

I could carry on for hours, but I'm sure i'm already testing some folks patience...
I guess my point is that when folks come into my record store now, I'm getting an awful lot of abuse and attitude from people I thought I had something in common with!

There's a gang of what the locals call " Gothics " now in the last few months they've stolen from me, vandalized my shop, attacked passers by, even tried to start a fight with me... the list just goes on!

Whats going on? We all used to look out for each other, the alternative lifstyles, no matter what their diffrences, there was a sense of belonging.

Are these the ramblings of a past it old codger? I'd like to think not!

[Matthew]

Whoopsie! Meant to post this in issues! Anyone know how to move it?

Just a quick addition... think I didn't make myself clear, I'm not having a go at anyone, I just wanna know if other feel that once things were more than a fashion statement?

Oh I'm so gonna get flamed!

[Righteous]

It's not a "label" or "tribe" thing, homeboy. It's a "cool cat" versus "complete twat" thing. Unless absorbed by the collectivist group mentality, you can't make blanket satements about people. A lot of times it's a situation of, "Hey, you're cool and if you need, I'm here because I've learned how cool it is to have others there for you." This isn't always the case. It could be a case of, "You're a little bit different from me, even though you're outside the norm, therefore, you suck."

I consider myself "alternative," however I primarily fall into the category of "Ri/James/Tragick."

And dude, lighten up. We're a lot more accepting and open-minded here than most boards. DOn't worry. Unless you decide to be a little bitch, we won't have issue with you.

[Moosh]

As a teenager I disagree with your idea that there are less 'tribes' around now. We have the Goths, the Punks, the Townies/Chavs, the Poptarts, the Skaters, the Hippies etc.

I think your experience with the 'Gothics' was because you thought they wre goths, and tried to talk to them as goths, whereas they were not goths but were probably called that by the townies (who call everyone who likes rock music a 'Goff') and were probably pretty pissed off about being called goths.

[funky fairy]

When I was a teen, a long, long , long time ago, we had Skinheads, Heavy Rockers, Mods, goths were around but dont know what they were called, punks and New Romantics.

I, of course belonged to the New Romantics, the bestest ever group!

[Righteous]

They're a lot more diversified. You have metal heads (and all the factions therein), alternatives, goths, punks, hardcore kids, industrials, rednecks, preps (my guess is equates to townies), emo kids, hippies (my guess is equates to crusties) and probably more that I can't think of.

A lot of it is based not only on music but activities. My brother and I were the only metal heads on the whole team. The rest were rednecks and preps.

I hate the label "freak." Around here, it's put on anyone who wears black and listen to harder music. It pisses me off.

What exactly is a "new romantic"?

[funky fairy]

A New Romantic was a person into Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet that type of music. We wore frilly shirts and little suede boots and had a long fringe.

[Cath Sparrow]

New Romantic also was the precurser to Goth.

Rule one of being a Goth never admit your a Goth

[{Gothic Angel}]

*Does not classify herself as a goth, but is often classified as such by others*

I like the way the black and red, fishnets, corsets, collars etc look, so I tend to wear them sometimes. I primarily listen to rock/metal/ "alternative" music, and I'm intelligent and quiet with a somewhat cynical and philosophical view on life. This tends to result in me being classified as "goth".

However, in the summer, I wear brightly coloured sarongs, floaty tops, flip flops, headbands, etc. I have a pair of elf ear-tips which I love. I like to go out into the sunshine *gasp*, and ok, sit in the shade, but the outside is nice sometimes. I guess I'm more hippy than goth at that point.

I was talking to my freind about this today actually. She was saying that she's found this "emo" guy she's getting close to and she wants to have different clothes and different classifications for the different aspects of her personality, but she can't face the people who would call her a wannabe. I kinda realised that's what I do - I have different aspects of my personality. I don't see why I should only live with one of them all the time.

[Snugglebum the D...]

Yup - so I'm a Goth?

Crusties: likes dreadlocks, tye-dyed clothes, fire breathing, the levellers, new model army...

Yup - So I'm a Crusty?

Cyberpunks: likes poopers, caffine, hot wiring anything, bleepy music...

Yup - So I'm a Cyberpunk? (see where I'm going here)

Townies: generally try to aggravate anyone not the same as them...

Okay - I don't do that. I'm really selective as to who I aggravate.

However - you've totally pigeon holed Townies in your post. Whereas you have listed 'traits' of the others, you've just listed what you dislike about Townies. I'd even say that you've done to Townies in your post which you yourself dislike others doing to you?

It's a two way street

[JimiJimi]

Hmm, I think that labelling is getting dangerously close to stereotyping. I know of a few people who act very gothic but wear very colourful clothes indeed. I know some 'cyberpunks' with dreadlocks. I know people who wear burberry but don't aggravate everyone they see. Ah, it's a funny old world.

Although, I find it funny when I walk past 16 year olds who shout 'Get a hair cut!' at me, despite me being nearly old enough to be their dad... Ah, good ol' 'chavs'.

[bryden42]

I'm with you on this one Matthew (i can't get used to calling you that). I've known Matt for 16 years or so and I was one of the people that used to be in his "Tribe". The way that i remember it was thus:

If you were into the alternative scene it was because you were

a) intelligent enough to realise that there was an alternative to following the fashion slave directive
picked on enough by the mainstream that thats where you ended up.

either way it tended to be that the alternative scene was proliferated with intelligent people that were polite enough and tended to shy away from violence (except on the dancefloor )

Now I have to admit that i wasn't there for the original punk movement (hell i was born in 1976) And my view of things might be radically different if I had been, as it strikes me that old school punks got a reputation for violence that was not undeserved. Yet every old school punk that i have ever spoken to has been intelligent enough and eloquent enough to be able to explain their political and social views.

Nowadays it all seems to me (IMHO) that it is about rebelion, aggression and antisocial behaviour for the sake of it, it's all self centered and self serving behaviour and the most common phrase when conversing with people is "F**k Off" and "'cause I want to". the amount of poseur posturing is unbelievable!

I went to a club in Edinburgh during the Edinburgh festival recently and had the misfortune of having 2 people on the dancefloor try to pick on me, presumably because I was older than most people in the club by a significant way, I was dancing quite merrily with the 2 girls I had gone to the club with when a guy barged past them and tried to push me over his mate who had gone on to all fours behind me. The manouver didn't work as the guy trying the shove was half my size and i had already noticed his friend behind me. My point is that this was a clear case of bullying ignoring all rules of mosh pit etiquette. It would never have happened during the period Matthew was intimating to.

I suppose that as an addendum I should clarify my idea of a moshpit. A moshpit is a gathering of likeminded individuals where a cathartic release of aggression is allowed and encouraged by all taking part. Shoving and punching (and to a lesser extent kicking) are allowed, head shots and pod shots are frowned upon, if someone goes down everyone tries to get them up.

[Snugglebum the D...]

, head shots and pod shots are frowned upon, if someone goes down everyone tries to get them up.

Damn - I wanna be in your mosh pit!! Nowadays it's all about the pain, it would seem.

I'm too pretty to get all f@cked up!!

[bryden42]

Nowadays it's all about the pain

I have no problem with the pain, at the end of the day if I can't take the pain i leave the pit. But i'm a firm believer in give as good as you get in mosh pits. and that was my problem with the 2 idiots in Edinburgh, they weren't willing to take it as well as give it, it was a cheap shot and it was cowardly. And they took real objection to the fact that i picked up the guy that was trying to push me and slammed him bodily into his mate on the floor. If they didn't want to be treated like that they shouldn't have initiated the manouver!

[Righteous]

I thought it was standard practice to help others up and limit hits to the head and other vital areas. There is the occasional buttnugget who decides it's better to push others around rather than work with the violent harmony. I also hate people who stand on the edge of the pit and act like you're the one with the problem when you slam into them.

[voices_in_my_hea...]

I could list all of the school's little "groups" for hours.

Preps, Jocks, Cheerleaders (They all have the same exact personality traits, yet they don't hang out with each other.... I have yet to understand this.) Outcast, Deliquents (sit with the dorks) Dorks, Girly-girls and Peverted Guys. Oh, almost forgot the band geeks. How Dare I.

If you sit with the "Dorks" (*raises her hand*) then that just means that you don't fit in anywhere else... Or, You've figured out that the people who came up with this whole label system have way too much time on their hands and probly sat with the geeks.

There are no "wars" between groups, I'm friends with a couple of the Cheerleaders. Maybe I just go to a peacefull school. Or I'm completly oblivious to everything going on around me. Etheir one.

[Forever Unknown]

Gah.

You're going to get your bastards in any subculture. I think we need to stop thinking "Oh, you're a Goth, so you must be like this" - even if it's something positive because, at the end of the day, we're all human. There are million of horrible people in the world and it's irrelevant how they dress, what they're into. They're just bastards. End of. And I'm pretty sure it's always been like that.

I can't understand why people have to classify people mostly on the way they dress (and it is, at the end of the day - people look at a Goth, or Punk, or whatever, and make a judgment on their musical preferences, political views and religion). Why can't it just be about what people think is fun, or nice, or comfortable?

As for the pits comment - I've never found myself in one where someone falls and they're left there. Punches in the head are an unfortunate but common occurance, but often not intentional. So, y'know. It's probably again one of those times where you just ran into a bastard.

[Matthew]

Ah the old mosh pit, and dancing ettiquette!

ER, just feel I need to try to clear a few things up, and after reading my original post and a few replies, feel some of it wasn't taken in the spirit it was meant...

Yeah, I'm well aware that labeling people is wrong, and that there are always a few bad apples around, but the group that I mention in my post is simply reinforcing the negative stereotypes that some people have... maybe they're venting their own frustration over various things through saftey in numbers, but it's aggression for aggresions sake.

The little Goth/Cyberpunk/Crustie thingie was just my attempt at a tongue in cheek way of pointing out stereotypes that we sometimes use ourselves...
And I've been called all of the above and more at various points of my own evolution...

All I was trying to provoke and discuss thought in was not "A Goddamn those pesky kids" thing nor was it " I've got a problem with certain types of people" lets all get judgemental... but to put the idea out there of community, no matter what you consider yourself to be, and how the idea doesn't seem to be around any more...

I used to find it a great comfort that no matter where I moved in this country, at some point I'd run into someone else dressed in black, tattoo'd or peirced, with funky dreads, who was reading a great book, was into esoteric music, who had ideas and theories: just someone with whom there'd be a spark of recognition that we were the one's the rest of the world considered odd... I've met many great friends this way and had many adventures!

Bryden42 Really put what I was trying to get at with far more eloquence than i've managed, in that there's no shared bond between the weirdos and outcasts anymore... I just wanted to know if anyone experienced anything simillar... maybe I'm doing what all old timers do and looking at the past through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think so.

Apologies if I aggravated anyone.

[bryden42]

Matt, I think we're just old

[Witless]

*preens*
While you folk fear labels for fear labels because of dangers, I've never been labelled anything but quiet or shy.
Never had goth, rocker, townie, trendy or any of that.. dunno why, guess I don't really look like anything, so people just can't find a label to slap on me. I find the shy label amusing though. It's not really true that I am shy but having people use an inaccurate descriptive word to describe me rather than a general label is a lot nicer.
Pretty appreciate of it to be honest, feels like I can go to a "townie" pub and be ok there. Go into a goth club, and have intelligent conversation there, or even stand at street corners and chat with prostitutes and talk about the state of the economy, and no one would bat an eyelid!
*preens again*

[Tarantio]

, head shots and pod shots are frowned upon, if someone goes down everyone tries to get them up.

Damn - I wanna be in your mosh pit!! Nowadays it's all about the pain, it would seem.

I'm too pretty to get all f@cked up!!

The few pits that get started at the Cathouse (usually only on sundays when the "geezers" are all in attendance) are proper old fashioned ones. I know, I've taken part in them. Soon as someone goes down, they get hoisted up and out by about six people, there's no headshots or down-lows, and anything spiky gets ditched before one starts. That said, I was in a few pits at the Rammstein gig in the SECC and they were just viscious. I would have to agree that they're all about the pain - the guys starting them looked like a bunch of slapheads more than moshers, and were all drunk and out to hurt someone. Not pleasant when there are little people around!

Oh, and more on-topic, I was never a part of a group, per se. None of them wanted me in them So I was always a bit of an individual (or a bot of a loser, depending on how you look at it).

[Cath Sparrow]

I thought it was standard practice to help others up and limit hits to the head and other vital areas. There is the occasional buttnugget who decides it's better to push others around rather than work with the violent harmony. I also hate people who stand on the edge of the pit and act like you're the one with the problem when you slam into them.

So your saying that the people who want to dance but not join the mosh pit aren't allowed? Because ye sometime I want to dance to a track that being played but I dont join in the mosh pit because I've a few to many dodgy joins already so dont want to get messed up any more so if I've no where else on the dance floor to go I'm going to glare and shove my elbow into anyone who comes flying out of the mosh pit at me because if I want to dance I've not much choise.

I used to find it a great comfort that no matter where I moved in this country, at some point I'd run into someone else dressed in black, tattoo'd or peirced, with funky dreads, who was reading a great book, was into esoteric music, who had ideas and theories: just someone with whom there'd be a spark of recognition that we were the one's the rest of the world considered odd... I've met many great friends this way and had many adventures!

I think you'll find most of them lurking round on the internet these's day's. I know from going to meets from this forum I've met quite a few people like you describe here.

[LoLo]

Whoopsie! Meant to post this in issues! Anyone know how to move it?

Just a quick addition... think I didn't make myself clear, I'm not having a go at anyone, I just wanna know if other feel that once things were more than a fashion statement?

Oh I'm so gonna get flamed!

You ask a very nice Mod, such as myself, to move it and it gets done. There you go.

[Mata]

I used to find it a great comfort that no matter where I moved in this country, at some point I'd run into someone else dressed in black, tattoo'd or peirced, with funky dreads, who was reading a great book, was into esoteric music, who had ideas and theories: just someone with whom there'd be a spark of recognition that we were the one's the rest of the world considered odd... I've met many great friends this way and had many adventures!

I think you'll find most of them lurking round on the internet these's day's. I know from going to meets from this forum I've met quite a few people like you describe here.

This is true. I met Matt(hew) when he was working in a video shop and we bonded over a repeatedly borked copy of Dark City, and friendship somehow bloomed from there, eventually ending up with us travelling to the US together and various other hi-jinks.

Part of the reason that this forum is the way that it is, is that I wanted to create a space where like-minded people could meet and chat about things that they enjoy. I think you're right Cath, these days it seems that most real bonding happens online, though I'm not sure why this has become the case. Maybe it's because any social movement that's too visual is plucked and commodified before it's really matured. This means that culture ends up a big melting pot, leading to a lack of defined groups and conflict between 'them' and 'us' ('us' being whoever you know and 'them' being any outsider). The internet can't be harvested in that way because it has no defining look, so there's still the chance for people to take their time and get to know each-other without judgements being drawn.

Hey, Bryden, have you got any old photos of Matt you could scan in?

[bryden42]

I have but he has old photos of me, I dare say, and that would just be a bad thing!