The Death Of The Pope Options

[believe]

I think this is where I'm glad I'm not catholic. Though I still think as in above post that such gifts are different from random luxury.

Minor edit- The above edited post, that is. Because I suck.

[acid_rain_child]

I kind of think of the Cardinals as the Justices of Catholicism. Whatever the Pope is, he's going to put Cardinals of his same feather in charge. A never ending cycle with Catholicism, but at least we get a liberal president every once in a while to appoint likewise Justices.

If anything, the Catholics are going to be more defensive of their morals in these times. There are so many touchy issues (homosexuality, abortions, condoms etc.) that they really can't afford to change ideals right now. They have to put their foot firmly down and support what they've always supported in order for everyone to still think they've got their s**t together.

[Mata]

Pardon the pun, but I don't expect miracles from the next pope. I'm realistic that women priests are not likely, and that homosexuality is going to remain deemed 'evil', but I hope that the views of Catholicism on condoms and also their treatment of known child-abusing priests will be revised.

As I've said before, the teachings of the Catholic church are directly related to the deaths of millions of people around the world and particularly in Africa. Any benevolent organisation has a responsibility to the welfare of their members, and the next pope needs to realise that the nature of disease has changed since biblical times. How can a virus be evil? If the Catholic church truly believes that HIV is a punishment for evil deeds then they can try infecting their next pope with it. Surely if he's good then he will recover?... Sorry to be flippant, but I think that Catholicism needs to drag itself out of the middle ages and confront the issues that face the world right now.

[believe]

Lets pretend that AIDS is a punishment for evil deeds for a moment. Even if we say for the sake of debate that that is true.. its spreading beyond the 'guilty' and into innocent and creating many orphans and AIDS babies. Even if a punishment for sin is an expected consquence, a church should still be working on helping the orphans and widows suffering because of such. Which would be helped by having AIDS fought or protected against. heh.

[Jaq]

Problem is, for the Church leaders to live in luxury is actually supported Biblically.

It is also refuted Biblically.

The donkey being a symbol of humility and poverty.

[ravein]

I have a idea.. wait for it... How about they don't elect a new pope and people actually read their chosen religious reference manual and make up their own minds!! I really can’t help but to feel that organized religion is a kin to Jim Jones and Kool-Aid. To follow one persons interpretation without question is cheating the religious work itself. If you want to have someone to consult that is fine, but when you stop interpreting a work yourself and depend on one person’s insight you lose a little of yourself.

I think the Pope did some great things in regards to spreading peace. Nevertheless, being part of the homosexual community he can bite my shiny gluteus maximus in regards to his social doctrine. I still respect him as a person and I am very glad his suffering has ended. It was horrible to see him is such pain. I really admire his courage and desire to lead as well.
Plus, how can you not love sound bites like these..
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/26...s.ap/index.html

[Mata]

Wow, how cool would it be to say 'I break-danced for the pope!'?

I agree Rav, while I don't agree with all of the things that he stood for I was glad to hear that his suffering was finally over.

[Tigersong]

Pardon the pun, but I don't expect miracles from the next pope. I'm realistic that women priests are not likely, and that homosexuality is going to remain deemed 'evil', but I hope that the views of Catholicism on condoms and also their treatment of known child-abusing priests will be revised.

As I've said before, the teachings of the Catholic church are directly related to the deaths of millions of people around the world and particularly in Africa. Any benevolent organisation has a responsibility to the welfare of their members, and the next pope needs to realise that the nature of disease has changed since biblical times. How can a virus be evil? If the Catholic church truly believes that HIV is a punishment for evil deeds then they can try infecting their next pope with it. Surely if he's good then he will recover?... Sorry to be flippant, but I think that Catholicism needs to drag itself out of the middle ages and confront the issues that face the world right now.

I agree with you totally, Mata, that the Church really needs to open its eyes to modern times. However, I'm pretty sure that it's not church doctrine that HIV is a punishment for evil deeds... some local priests may believe that, but the Vatican certainly does not teach that, nor is it able to control the (wacked out) beliefs of all priests.

The next pope is likely to be just as conservative as JPII was. There is one "liberal" candidate, Cardinal Godfried Danneels, who has stated that condoms are not sinful in (limited) certain circumstances). My hope is that someone like him will get into power, because then he will be able to appoint cardinals who are a little less conservative, and they will elect a slightly more liberal pope, and so on... and then hopefully 100 years from now, the Church may be finally moving into the 20th century. I don't see the largest church in the world collapsing any time soon (it may slowly die out, but that will take time), so I figure that's our best hope.

[Calantyr]

I find all the talk of 'liberalising' the church to be rather.... odd. The church is not there to be popular. It is there to hand down 'truths' as given to Man from God and through his son, Jesus.

As a result it is incapable of 'shifting with the times'. Any such action not just raises doubt as to the legitimacy of the institution, but also raises the wishes of Man above the will of God.

The church can change, as recognition that the Earth is not flat or the centre of the Universe shows. The thing is that to my knowledge this was not explicitly stated in the good book. However, there are some 'truths' that are carved in stone (excuse the pun).

Accepting homosexuals, as an example, will not happen unless the Bible is rewritten. And theres about as much chance of that happening as there is of John Paul ][ coming back as a cyborg.

Destroy a bastion of tradition that has persisted more or less for nearly 2000 years while the world around it has been consumed by ever-changing events? Not gonna happen. Any attempt would surely shatter the 1 billion or so Catholics into rival sects. And I am not sure it would be entirely peaceful either.

Saying that, the Church has done (and is currently) doing great evil in the world, to my mind at any rate. Official Catholic spokespeople are saying that condoms can not help stop the spread of AIDS, even with mountains of evidence to the contrary. John Paul ][ was a vocal supporter of this. Even after all the good work he has done, this has undoubtably resulted in the deaths of many

I have even read reports in the last few years of Catholic priests in africa stating that condoms are the REASON for AIDS. It is part of some conspiracy. Nutty? Oh yes... I truly hope these were just some fringe crazies that slipped through the watchful eye of the Church. Like peodophile priests.... ones which the late Pope seemed to shield from justice Maybe he just couldn't comprehend the ghastly nature of the crime... *shrugs*

Reform is needed, and the late Pope was a good start. But nothing great will happen for a while. I celebrate his life for that and I am saddened by his death, but he is not what I would consider the shining light of human goodness. Though maybe his more conservative choices that could have been avoided (like through a Papal Bull or something) were through ignorance. Most of these choices came late in his Papacy though... and during this time I am not completely sure his actions were completely his own. It is not unconcievable that an ill, old, and incredibly frail man had someone make up his mind for him. *shrugs again*

I reckon they will elect a nice old conservative Pope. One that will not live long and would rather consolidate the changes that have been pushed through rather than create any new bombshells. This will give them time to think through the direction they wish to go in, and also see what the actions of the late Pope have resulted in. Hopefully drawn from an area of great religious strife. One who would rather draw together the religions of the world and lessen the attractiveness of religious violance, than cause any great stir. In essance, follow through with the possibly most enlightened policies of John Paul ][.

There is a Nigerian candidate who could fill this role. Nigeria has seen far too much blood spilt between Christians and Muslims recently. But to my knowledge he is an arch-conservative, so things may actually regress.

It is also rumoured that John Paul ][ secretly cannonised a Chinese priest. Secretly so the government there would not pursecute him. If this man was to be called to rome and made Pope, it could do wonders for the strengthening of the faith and strengthening of religious tolerance in that country. Or it could backfire. Who knows?

[Mata]

Given the Dali Lama's relationship with the Chinese government, I seriously doubt that a Chinese pope would be likely to make any difference to their policies. Nice idea though!

Apparently there is historical precedent that shows that the voting for new popes often is on the principle of finding someone with different views to the pope before. This does make sense when you think about it; by alternating between conservative and more liberal popes you can generate a faith that is capable of adapting slowly to the environment around it and new challenges as they evolve. There's a chap from Brazil who would be the best bet if this trend were to continue.

Apparently the most predicatable thing about papal votes is that it usually surprises everyone, so I'm not about to run out and start betting any time soon!

Given that condoms weren't invented until a few hundred years ago, I find it unlikely that they were explicitly mentioned in the Bible, so anything about them is based on interpretation of the existing texts. Where there is interpretation I retain hope for progress. Sadly, I think that even if the next pope did do an about-face on the issue, I think it is still going to be way too late for a very significant proportion of the poorest people in Africa and around the world.

[Calantyr]

Given the Dali Lama's relationship with the Chinese government, I seriously doubt that a Chinese pope would be likely to make any difference to their policies. Nice idea though!

-/-snip-/-

Given that condoms weren't invented until a few hundred years ago, I find it unlikely that they were explicitly mentioned in the Bible, so anything about them is based on interpretation of the existing texts. Where there is interpretation I retain hope for progress. Sadly, I think that even if the next pope did do an about-face on the issue, I think it is still going to be way too late for a very significant proportion of the poorest people in Africa and around the world.

Ah yes, the Dali Lama. I had completely forgotten about that. Maybe the Pope being so highly recognised in the western world would make a difference. It may have an effect on trading partners or the like. But China has always been rather stubborn so I suppose thats just a hopeful dream... Not to put down the Dali Lama, but in the West™ he isn't held as high as the Pope.
The USA (with a supposedly catholic Bush at the helm) might not appreciate the Chinese cracking down on the Catholic Pope. *shrugs*

As for condoms, they have existed for thousands of years. The ancient Egyptians had them, made from pig intestines I believe. The upper classes have always had access to them to some degree or another. Maybe there isn't anything about them explicitly said in the Bible, but a lot of dogma has built up over the millenias. Something about sex only being for procreatian. Using bodies simply for pleasure is evil. But I'm not too sure on the actual stance.
And even if there was a U-turn on it, it is so fundamental to Catholicism that there may even be a split. Scary thought... and in the meantime hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of people die through sexually transmitted diseases.
*sighs*
There isn't really a happy quick solution. Except maybe God coming down and kicking everyone into shape.

[CommieBastard]

The USA (with a supposedly catholic Bush at the helm) might not appreciate the Chinese cracking down on the Catholic Pope. *shrugs*

Bush isn't Catholic; I think he's a Methodist.

[believe]

I find all the talk of 'liberalising' the church to be rather.... odd. The church is not there to be popular. It is there to hand down 'truths' as given to Man from God and through his son, Jesus. As a result it is incapable of 'shifting with the times'. Any such action not just raises doubt as to the legitimacy of the institution, but also raises the wishes of Man above the will of God.

I'm not going to quote the whole post, though I was tempted. I just wanted to applaud it. Very well said and true. The Bible isn't going to be rewritten and the Church isn't there to be popular or liberalize itself with the times. The Bible speaks repeatedly of following the world as one of the great evils and temptations. With that doctrine, it would be much harder to get a majority of catholics or christians to feel comfortable with things outside or directly in contradiction to the Bible. Though people certainly have their own views on some issues and stuff.

Its a struggle I have had and still have, as I find I'd be more liberal than God on my own. >.> Its why I try to concentrate on practical solutions that everyone can agree on. Like how protect people from abuse, limit or end suffering and so on. Thats my hope for the Catholic and Protestant Churches. I don't ever think the world and the Church will agree, but at least the world (and Church) can be made a better place, one person at a time.,

And it may not be entirely relevant for the Catholic Church, but the argument I always hear against sex ed as that it will encourage people to have sex outside of marrage. Same with condoms. That sex/immortality will seem even more acceptable, everyone will do it and so on. The pleasure argument is probably still used somewhere, but its not the one I've heard/read on. The tiny problem with that is that people are already doing and per usual, the wrong people are often suffering for it.

[Calantyr]

The USA (with a supposedly catholic Bush at the helm) might not appreciate the Chinese cracking down on the Catholic Pope. *shrugs*

Bush isn't Catholic; I think he's a Methodist.

Really? I thought I saw on BBC earlier that he was a Catholic. Oh well.
I wonder if it would hamper trade though... China depends heavily on imports... would the rest of the world suffer from lack of their exports?

[Tigersong]

"Something about sex only being for procreatian"

That's not actually taught anywhere in the Bible, but is a doctrine that has built up over 2000 years of a very bizarre preoccupation with sex in the Church, especially in connection to the story of Eve/sex as being the transmitter of original sin.

There's other things I could comment on, but it's late and I'm tired.

[sjbbandgeek]

This is very subtile in the bible, but have you ever noticed that with the trinity, The father is giving everything to his son and the son is giving everything to his father, through this love, life, or the holy spirit, is created.
Using this analogy with love, we find that the sole purpose of sex is for both love giving and life giving. As the pope once said, the opposite of love is use.

[believe]

There's also the Song of Solomon. *keff*

[Mata]

Ah, but all that sex in the song of Solomon as actually about the love of Christ for humanity. Honest guv. It's not pr0n, honest. No, really. It isn't.

[elphaba2]

We had to read that aloud in my youth group years ago, and it was terrifying. I was about 11 at the time, and the only girl in the group, so guess who got to read all the female bits?

*shudders*

It is interesting that the church's struggle for a pure image has led to an extreme decrease in our image of them. The Song of Solomon isn't included in a huge number of Bibles printed, and by sweeping all the dirty priests under the rug they've caused this sniggering sort of paranoia.

I have to say though, as a person, I thought the Pope was a really nice. After his assassination was foiled, he went to the prison and forgave the assasin. I know I wouldn't do that. I don't agree with his views on abortion, gay rights, the AIDS epidemic,--scads of things, but I respected him as a leader of a church I'm not part of.

Also, he had people breakdance for him, and that's pretty damn cool.

[believe]

Mata:

Ah, but all that sex in the song of Solomon as actually about the love of Christ for humanity. Honest guv. It's not pr0n, honest. No, really. It isn't.

I'm not sure I can believe that, having read it. I don't think Christ loves me like that, thank you very much. >.>

[beleraphon]

Given the state of the christian faith I don't want the christian god to love me. So far its proved to be a vicious blinkered hateful thing and I want no involvement in it at all.

[Wytukaze]

Breaking story! Pope not as dead as first believed! See here.

I figured this was the best place to report that.

[CommieBastard]

Given the state of the christian faith I don't want the christian god to love me. So far its proved to be a vicious blinkered hateful thing and I want no involvement in it at all.

Maybe in the Old Testament, but He seemed to mellow a bit in the New.

[Polocrunch]

Perhaps because he was seeking a broader audience?

[believe]

Perhaps because he was seeking a broader audience?

The wine improved.

But I suppose you could say that either way, what with the message being taken to the gentiles. And things like the Roman Centurion.