Poem, first post-new poem(s?). Options

[over_the_aybss]

w/e.

Just letting people know that I will not be posting on any forum anymore because it seems all people will do is argue with me. And that ever since I have gotten all these "comments"about my writing, I have not written a poem since. i belive that some of the stuff written has made me lose my appeal of writing peoetry because I do not belive what i write is good anymore.

So goodbye.

really this time

Have a good life all of you

[Mata]

Bear with this, it does get to a good point at the end:

*deep breath*

Right...

This person is just being childish and wanting an ego rub. they aren't worth much more than this if they can't deal with criticism.
It gives me the s**ts

That didn't really help anything.

PWM, I see what you were trying to do, but I think you've missed the point that a vast amount of people don't actually care half as much about the technical details of stanza construction as you do.

Some people write and share poetry just to try and get things off their chest. The very act of creating anything is usually more important than the final result. If you think that's a load of rubbish then maybe you should read up about Gustav Metzger and autodestructive art.

I think what may have happened here is a conflict between a Poet (a person who takes the form and the progression of it very seriously) and a person who is writing poems. The two of them have utterly different perspectives on what is important. The Poet believes that the act of writing is entirely about the resulting words. These words may be laboured over for years on end (Coleridge was rewriting The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner for 28 years and still never got it how he would have liked). A person who is writing poetry may be something completely different. For them it is about the expression of a moment in their lives. To paraphrase Wordsworth's introduction to The Lyrical Ballads, it is about man in a state of vivid sensation being expressed in the common language of the land. Such times may not lead to the most erudite or well expressed poems, but they retain a charm and that gives them importance for the writer.

This leads to the issue of how they should be responded to. As with poems that can be thought to be great or a load of rubbish (I believe Ted Hughes has already been mentioned (and no, I'm not really bothered by his stuff either, although I do quite like 'The Bricks' in the Tate)), a response to a poem can often be read two ways: a critique can easily be seen as an insult, and there is a narrow line sometimes. For the record, I do think that PWM would have been on the correct side of that line if it weren't for the fact that this was clearly this person's first post, and without being able to judge more easily what sort of reaction was being sought then it is always better to err on the side of caution before going off into a full critique of form and expressive terms.

So what can be done?

In future, if a poem should strike you as something that you desperately want to critique then firstly always find something nice to say. If you really cannot find _anything_ nice to say then you have two options:

1) shut up and don't say anything. If you feel so strongly that the poet is hopeless then it's probably far better to just let them happily chip away at their notebooks than it is to entirely discourage them from writing something else

2) politely state that the poem doesn't appeal to you for a number of reasons and then ask if the person if they are looking for a detailed critique, emphasising that it is the form of expression that you are going to discuss, not the subject matter. This isn't rocket science. This forum is built on respect, and sometimes we have to ask others to clarify what they are looking for to maintain that respect.

2 brings me on to my final point. Yes, people have written about rejection, isolation, individuality, and lack of understanding before. They will again. This doesn't mean that it is impossible to write a good poem about it. A lot of people have these feelings at some point in their life and so it is only natural that there will be a lot of poems about it. Surely it is better that a person writes about something that they feel rather than forcing themself to write about fluffy bunnies all the time?

Many great poems have been written about these subjects and others that are related, death, longing etc etc etc. The subject matter of the poem really isn't something that should ever be a main point in a criticism.

I used to drink at a pub called The Ship. It was one of very few 'alternative' pubs in my home city out of a very large number of drinking establishments. We would describe it as the pub where everyone was being different in exactly the same way. Even rebelion frequently has conformity, but still there is a market for goth music with lyrics saying exactly the same things as they were twenty years ago. All the people in the pub thought that they were being individual, despite the fact that to an outsider they were just a mass of black, but, the thing is, that they were right. They were being individual, just as the people in every other pub, living room, bedroom, tent, or hut in the world was being different.

We are all individuals, and what we feel will always be personal to us. Part of feeling isolated is a difficulty in recognising that other people may have felt the same emotions, but even if they have it doesn't matter because those emotions are still real and expressing them is still perfectly valid. In such circumstances it is often more important that the expression happens at all rather than the precise technical qualities of it.

I agree, the poems might benefit readers if they have a different arrangement, punctuation etc. but would OTA's feelings benefit from this?

Don't always look on the words of poems as the important end result. Sometimes it is that the process has occured that it more important, and in such cases the writer will often not really be that bothered by the final result as much as hoping that people can understand the emotions that they are feeling.

I read those poems and I know the emotion that OTA is feeling and in that they are effective. My personal thoughts on the validity of those feelings to my life are utterly unimportant. PWM, your comment that the subject matter is overused is really missing the point. That's like saying to a person with clinical depression 'why can't you just cheer up?' The point of the poem is that you understood how OTA felt. Your personal opinion of the feelings expressed in the poems is that they are angst. The poems were effective in conveying the feelings of the writer to you, that those feelings are not ones that you give a damn about is besides the point and shouldn't enter into your discussion of the poem.

If you can't relate to the emotions in a poem in the same way as the writer then you most likely aren't the target audience. Your options then are then either to ignore it or politely ask if the writer would like a little criticism of their style. Launching into this from a person's first post is always going to make a bad impression, and a little caution never goes amiss.

[artist.unknown]

Agreed, Mata, Mike's aproach often tends to discourage the less tough-skinned poets and should be mitigated in instances where he doesn't know that the poet is looking for an intensive, blunt criticism. In PWM and Ange's defense, though, I think the melodramatic reaction may have been a bit much, and the poet should perhaps have been a bit more gracious about constructive criticism. The one thing that's important to learn as an artist or poet is that not everything can be taken as a personal attack. Listening to other opinions never hurts, and if you truly do disagree, ignoring them never caused much serious trauma either. Aggressive rejection of other opinions is not reasonable when it comes to art, even your own.

Besides, without a little criticism here and there, where would the angst for the next piece come from?

[PsychWardMike]

Mata, I wasn't trying to villify anyone. If I did, then I apologize. However, I believe was, before being antagonized, fairly respectful. I've come to try to adopt your belief that creation is an inherently good thing, hence my "Keep writing. Refine yourself." Comment. I don't mean to be combatitive, but I honestly felt it was lacking in poetic essentials and I said that in my review. As far as the subject matter, I believe that my response was misinterpreted. When I said that everything had been said before, I meant that there was an abundance of cliched phrases. If that was offensive, I didn't mean for it to be, but I again believe it true.

In short, I didn't mean for anything to be augering. It was a simple critique that got way out of hand because as nice as I'm trying to be, people still can't take it.

[Mata]

Mike, I really do understand what you were trying to do. Maybe it's the poet in you, but sometimes when you're giving honest feedback you use words that are perhaps more emotive than you realise.

Things did get out of hand in this thread, and a feedback loop developed, which is unfortunate, especially if it has meant that OTA truly has been discouraged from developing her writing. As you say, some people aren't at the point in their writing careers where they can take criticism, constructive or otherwise. As I've said in the Criticism thread, in future it might be a good idea to mention that you are a poet and politely ask if they would like some criticism of their form to help them improve their writing.

Poetry for many people is so personal that criticism can be taken as a deeply intimate insult. It might not be this way for you, but for some this is the truth and they see any criticism as demeaning their right to feel the validity of their own emotions, which understandably makes them very defensive. I think that's what happened here.

[over_the_aybss]

Hey,
Me again. Don't worry, I am not going to explode again this time. I am writing to apoligize for the things that I overreacted towards and the insults I flung at posters.

After reading all the new posts, I have seen the views of other posters that I was not able to see before. As a new poster, and one of low self confidence, some of the things written offended me, although they were not actually that bad. I do want to creative critscm,but as a new poster I was not expecting it to come so fast and fourisly.

I did except creative critscm and I apologize again for how I reacted to it.


(Thanks to Mata for writing what I never could)

Many thanks to all,

over_the_abyss

[Mata]

Nice to have you back. I don't like it when things go sour and especially when it is over a misunderstanding!

[froggle-rock]

I'm not a poet, nor do I go out of my way to read poetry. My favourite poet is e. e. cummings. The poems by him that I have read seem to use punctuation quite sparingly. I hold him to be my favourite poet because he stirred up raw emotions in me. Maybe I should make an effort to expand my reading of poems, but to be honest I doubt I will.
I'm not trying to take away from the craftsmanship aspect of writing a poem, but 'reading' poetry to me is about being either me touched by it or not.

It's good that you came back

[rainbowclogs]

I think Mata made some good points there and also showed you that we all have different tastes as well which often makes our criticisms of poems very different. The bricks in the Tate are a good example to use again. I personally found no creative genius in their presence, but I can happily stand in the Saacthi Gallery and feel overwhelmed by the imaginative genuis of a room full of petrol. We all differ and yet we are all the same in our own funny ways, if that makes sense...??That's the beautyof it all (cue a drift into rainbow dreaminess and philiosophical trance-like state!!..).

I'm looking forward to your next creation personally. I often like to use poetry as a means to paint and have found some inspiration from the creations on this site so feed my ideas (if that doesn't sound too strange!!)
As I said before..........
KEEP WRITING !!

Rain xxxx

[over_the_aybss]

Ok here is something complelty diffrent by me. This is a series of poems that make up a continuing story. This is all I have so far but I guess I can say that it is Romeo and Juliet esque. I was not sure where to put the commas and such so when you read it, put them in as you think needed. Now this I want construtive Cristsicm on (dont give me that look) I will not react like I have before. I promise.
Remeber these are 3 diffrent peoms that make up 1 story. More to come/


Now I Know

I saw you there
Hair glittering against the artificial light
Your eyes closed against the outside world
Heartbeat and music
In time with each-other
Until everything stops
And nothing breaks the small shelter
You have made for yourself
Time slams back
Reality reveals itself again
And you open your eyes.
And turn off what kept you alive
Knowing Once again
It is time to face the day



The streets are empty
Thrash swept against vacant roads
By a unforgiving wind
The scent of rain hangs in the air
Fog becomes the darkness that covers all
As I sit on the desolate road
And let the wind whip around me
I am alone



Under the cover of darkness
You sneak under the window
That divides us
The tap of stones on the glass
Awakens me from a light sleep
And everything comes flooding back
We are not supposed to be together
You and I
Yet we find ways
To see the one we love
I remember the night
You danced and swayed in the middle of the kitchen floor
Now all I have is a tapping
But it’s all I need
To remember you

[depressed lonely...]

I like these batter than your previous things...but I would find them a little boring and generic if you hadn't made the connection between them and romeo and juliet which makes them kind of interesting.
Like a good connection to the baz lurman leo de-crapio modern thing which in that context iritated me

[beleraphon]

They read more like song lyrics than poems to me, have you considered setting them to music?

[over_the_aybss]

ok. This has nothing do with the above peom. Thats a long work in progress.

This one has a story behind it. There was this guy I was going out with and really liked, i guess you could say loved. Then he AIMed me and said we were not acutally going out and when I asked if he liked another girl, he said yes. Now he says that he is regretting breaking up wiht me, I am very confused. So I was sad and wrote this.

Now I know this is not good, I just wanna get it off my chest.

P.S. I know this doesnt go here, but if anyone has any advice on my perdictiment, could you say something? Thanks


Fuck You
Fuck all the compliments you've given me
Fuck all the "I love you's"
Fuck the times we spent together
Now your gone
And all the memories just break my heart even more
So fuck you
It doesn't hurt anymore

[Mata]

For advice: as hard as it sounds, I don't think that you should allow yourself to be hurt by him again. It's your call, and you know far more about the situation, but it seems like he doesn't know what he wants that well either. That could just be very confusing to go out with. If he's still hopeful in six months and you're still tempted then think about it, but he might be flitting because he wants what he can't have.

I don't usually allow swearing on the forum unless it it strongly justified by the situation. I'll let this one go, but try not to make it a central piece of future poems please!

[over_the_aybss]

sorry That whats happens when someone kinda pisses u off (err.. can i even say that) This is actually the first one that I wrote with swearing and since i never write them, it wont happen again.

[Mata]

Thanks

You can say 'pisses', that's not very rude really, although I try to get everyone to type the full versions of words on here, so I consider the 'u' to be more rude!

I must sound really pedantic... I'm not usually lecturing people about the rules, you've obviously caught me at an odd time.

Good luck with the man problems. You might want to post about it in the Personal Concerns forum if you want to talk about it more.

[over_the_aybss]

For some stupid reason, writing it there never even crossed my mind. And if it had, it probably just shot out the other side of my head. But thanks, i'll do that now.

You very helpful


P.S. I cant help writing the U's. AIM lingo is stuck permently on my brain.







I just went back and looked over this post. I put in a WHOLE LOTTA smilies

[over_the_aybss]

I wrote about it on the other board. WHOOT!


sorry, this is a whole lot of SPAM, but, i dont have any new poems so this is the best I can do.

[Mata]

I cant help writing the U's. AIM lingo is stuck permently on my brain. 

You'll get used to it quite quickly, and it makes life easier in the future when you're sitting down to write formal letters. It's good practice to resist accidentally putting in a 'U' by mistake when it might be important.

[PsychWardMike]

Cheers Mata. I actually find it harder to write in AIM speak than I do as I'd normally write something for a school paper.

I did know a teacher who used to accept AIM speak in papers, though. It made me sick.

[over_the_aybss]

I cant help writing the U's. AIM lingo is stuck permently on my brain. 

You'll get used to it quite quickly, and it makes life easier in the future when you're sitting down to write formal letters. It's good practice to resist accidentally putting in a 'U' by mistake when it might be important.

Besides, I spend most of my day on the computer on AIM. even in school :looks around wildy: "Who said that"

knowing me, I will probably end up writing it when I am in college. Now there's a good way to fail
(but seeing how I spend the whole school day online, college may just be an AIM dream for me )


My New Motto: I'll try but if I dont succeed, Somebody slap me

[over_the_aybss]

Yeah yeah, its me again. But this time I actually have a poem instead of spam :insert startled gasp here:

This is one that I like. I was in school and looking around the crowded hallway (1500 kids in whole school) and noticing that many were to themselves and almost as if they complelty blended into thier sorroundings (this includes me, I am not the most talkitive person in school. actually quite shy) So here is the peom that I got from that one crowded hallway



Around us all is movement
do we turn to see
who is beside us?
or do we stay looking
straight ahead?
does breath make you wonder?
does the pounding of your heart, make you want to cry?
Knowing you are here
Alive
the precious life, each holds in thier own hands,
and the pin-pricks, guiding lights
that how the way of the future
a heartache excites
knowing you have the power
to live at all
I am
We are
Infinite

[Mata]

My New Motto: I'll try  but if I dont succeed, Somebody slap me

You've come to the right place!

(The 's' shouldn't be uppercase and you forgot the full-stop! )

[over_the_aybss]

My New Motto: I'll try  but if I dont succeed, Somebody slap me

You've come to the right place!

(The 's' shouldn't be uppercase and you forgot the full-stop! )

Man, are you ALWAYS like this!??

How do people live with you?

OOOO..READ POEM AND TELL WHAT YOU THINK PLEASE!

[Mata]

Nope, I'm not usually pedantic, but if you ask to be given a slap for bad grammar then I'll happily be picky!

Well... Okay, I'm a bit of a grammar-Nazi, but not too bad usually...

As I've said in this thread before, I'm not a big fan of most poetry. The things I like have usually endured a few hundred years before I've got around to reading them, so that in itself is a test of their strength.

I think the second half of the poem is stronger than the first half: I'm not sure that questions often help a piece to convey its meaning. I think if you ask a question when you're writing it needs to be answered, rather than assuming the reader understands you, and then it would be better to just present your answer in the first place!

It's definitely got promise. As I think has been mentioned before, you might need to really think about the pacing of the lines and the way that you use punctuation. Things like commas give people a speed at which to read the lines, without these it's easy to just flow between words and all pacing gets lost... This said, I think it shows promise. The imagery is improved from even the first poem you posted on here. Keep going!