Israeli/Palestinian situation, A collapse into a third world war? Options

[bryden42]

when I am god, I am going to take away the land in question and then neither of the naughty boys can play with it, they can then both sit in their rooms and think about it.

[That_Guy]

Oh, if only it were that easy.

[pgrmdave]

Israel tried being peaceful, and they were still attacked. Would you sit idly by as your family was attacked? Israel is trying to destroy a threat to its citizens. Yes, they have killed civilians, but what choice do they really have? Israelis are being killed, and they are being killed by a group which chooses to hide among civilians. Should the Israelis simply give up, and allow terrorists to continue to attack so long as they hide among citizens?

[Calantyr]

Israel tried being peaceful, and they were still attacked. Would you sit idly by as your family was attacked? Israel is trying to destroy a threat to its citizens. Yes, they have killed civilians, but what choice do they really have? Israelis are being killed, and they are being killed by a group which chooses to hide among civilians. Should the Israelis simply give up, and allow terrorists to continue to attack so long as they hide among citizens?

Certainly not. But systematic bombings runs of all the infrastructure (and large residential areas) of Lebanon in almost certainly not the answer. You only have to look at Iraq to see how well that deals with terrorism.

Of course Isarel is going to be branded with hot irons no matter what they do.

[pgrmdave]

I don't think that what they are doing will solve the problem completely, but I don't know what else they should do. They pulled out, they were peaceful, they have the ability to completely annihilate the middle east, but all they want is Israel, and yet their neighbors still continued to murder them. They are acting out of frustration, and I don't blame them. Since they tried being peaceful, they are trying to be forceful. Perhaps it will work, perhaps it won't, but at least it's an attempt to change things.

[That_Guy]

I think the real victim here is the Palestinians. Israel has already given up Gaza and (I believe) the West Bank, and yet the Islamic extremist leaders continue to convince them that Israel is trying to squash them.

If anything, Israel should give some sort of penance to the Palestinians for the land that they had taken from them. Not that it's right, but it could mollify them without causing a lot of bloodshed.

[bryden42]

I know that my previous message was a little infantile but I do mean the sentiment behind it, This is a fight, just like the issues in northern island, for a scrap of land. I know there are a lot of other issues that have arrisen since, but at its heart, this is a fight for a bit of land.
I have seen this so many times.... do you know where? in the playground, "Its my teddy bear" "No its not it's mine" I had it first" "yeah But I have it now" "but its mine" "you put it down" "didn't say you could have it though", For f**k sake can't people grow up?
Anyone any ideas how many times the British isles have been invaded/conquered/colonised, not sure myself but its loads, (the French, the Norse, the Romans to name the first three to come to my head) it happens and has done since the day we realised that the seas were a bit choppy and decided to crawl out of them onto land.
And I'm not even going to start on the "my god said it was ours" "no my god said it's ours" argument!
To reiterate, this is playground politics taken to the global stage, played with bigger nastier sticks and it infuriates me that these 2 supposedly ancient religions/civilisations can't act like the "growed ups" they are and come to some arrangement.

[I_am_the_best]

First war Israel has lost and only because they were told to stop. Now The surrounding countries shall see this as a chance and hope that they can demolish Israel. Everyone is very terrified.

[gothictheysay]

bryden42, I agree. It's so hard to explain sometimes because everyone wants to pick sides.

IATB, wasn't there a ceasefire ordered? Both Lebanon, or Hizbollah, and Israel stopped, so I can't see any way that Israel "lost", unless I'm not up to date on something. I don't think surrounding countries will see it as a chance to demolish Israel - a lot of them have wanted to demolish Israel anyway. I dunno, I was kind of happy to hear that there was a ceasefire and no one else would be hurt.

[I_am_the_best]

I can see your point but all the newspapers were saying that Israel accepted defeat. It was a very difficult war with many moral complications and Olmad (I forgot the new priminister's name) admitted that he had made many mistakes. Although Hezbollah have stopped, all the other countries and terrorist groups will think 'Aah, so Israel are possible to defeat - they must be getting weaker!' and such like. Especially since Hamas was recently elected in Egypt... who knows what could happen? The fear is that Tel Aviv will be bombed. I mean, there are often suicide bombs there and all over the rest of Israel but an air raid would really be the end of it. It is so terrifying.

[That_Guy]

The countries surrounding Israel know her power all too well. Israel is known to have one of the best-trained armies in the world, not to mention their 3-billion-dollar budget, courtesy of the US of A.

Although you are correct about the terrifying part. Innocent bystanders- of both sides, mind you- are the true victims in this sitiuation. I remember seeing a newscast about a man living outside of Israel, somewhere in the mountains. Everyone in his town was living in constant fear of being blown to smithereens by Israeli shellings that were claimed to be directed towards terrorist groups.

[Mata]

On a side note: it puts the 'risk' of terrorist attacks in the West into perspective when you know that in Irsael over the past few weeks you were still four times more likely to be killed by a car than you were from a terrorist attack. How much more of a risk are cars to people in our countries than terrorism, and how much more attention does terrorism get from our governments?

[Calantyr]

On a side note: it puts the 'risk' of terrorist attacks in the West into perspective when you know that in Irsael over the past few weeks you were still four times more likely to be killed by a car than you were from a terrorist attack. How much more of a risk are cars to people in our countries than terrorism, and how much more attention does terrorism get from our governments?

There's a slight difference between accidental road accidents and actively seeking out people to murder them with bombs. There is less chance of getting knifed in the street than there is of getting run down by a car, but we are justifiably worried about it.

Only idiots will see this as a sign of Israel getting weaker. Israel didn't fulfill its objectives because it restrained itself. Despite what some media sources have implied, Israel DID try to limit civilian casualties on both sides. It did not use the full force available to it.

In a total war where the survival of the Israeli state is on the line we will see the full fury of the beast. There is nothing in the region that would be able to stand up to that now that the Iraqi army is gone. I pity the fool that tries.

[I_am_the_best]

Yes, I think that Al Qaeda came with a video saying that the supporters of Israel will be attacked. Although British media is pretty biased towards Palestinians, I think the country as a whole is counted as supporting Israel.

I should hope everyone's getting used to the new airport security checks! You should see it in Israel - 3 hours of security for non-jews! Israel has certainly learnt its lesson about airport security ever since the first Japanese tourists came to Israel (one of them opened is suitcase, removed a machine gun and shot randomly at anyone. My uncle was sent to go to the airport being important in El Al and said that the blood was literally running like a river.) But I am so glad that our police force precented the attacks that were to happen recently. I am scared of what will happen in the future.

[thatguy486]

If it comes down to a mass invasion of Israel, they'll take the middle east out of the equation. There Military is on par with the US, British, and Germans. In a stand up fight, Israel always has and always will win. IMHO the Israelis had every justification for their actions in Lebanon. They were giving up old territories to the Palestinians, they were trying to put the conflict to rest by appeasing the Palestinians. So Hamas and Hezbollah capture soldiers thinking that they can start doing whatever they want and Israel will comply if it means peace. The Israelis decided, no were not going to bend over to these terrorist acts. They went into Lebanon looking to personally demolish Hezbollah. They said if we do not get our men back we will turn the clock back of Lebanese industry 50 years. They were provoked, they reacted.

2001, 9-11 the united states suffers from the worst terrorist act in history. Why? because Al-Qaeda thought that if they could cause enough damage at once they could scare us into giving them concessions. Instead we decided we aren't going to bend over to a terrorist group who just murdered thousands of our fellow citizens. So we invaded Afghanistan and ended the threat. We then took it a step further and rebuilt Afghanistan when we could have just left them in total ruin. (I'm not going to mention Iraq because in my opinion as an American we had no reason to go and shouldn't be there right now) What Israel and the US have shown is that when you anger either the regional super power OR the only super power left in existence they WILL fight back.

Times are dark for the simple fact that whoever perpetrates a terrorist act against either of these nations will end up with them at their doorstep. When I see the aggressive nature of Israel I see them wanting this threat over, and their willing to end it themselves. Their tired of giving in, tired of having to apologize for retaliations on attacks made against them. They want peace and their willing to go to war to secure it. If the human race has shown anything throughout the course of history, its that peace only comes after war. If the middle east does explode into turmoil, then its self induced. They were the aggressors, and when we bite back they complain to the rest of the world that were being Imperialistic and that were warmongering. The sad thing is that the rest of the world gives Israel the slap on the wrist saying they shouldn't have retaliated. They do it because there all tied to the middle east financially, and they don't want to lose money because they supported Israel. The world only cares about two things nowadays. Money and Land, those are the only reasons were still having wars anywhere around the world. Its because were running out of room and money. Until the population stops growing, theres going to be an increase in fighting for land and money.

I say we all get off our collective butts and use they money we do have to start colonizing the Moon and Mars. Id say with 120 years of dedicated world wide research we could have the technology to do such an act. So why don't we? Because everyone is to attached to their money to give it up.

I'm starting to rant so I'm going to finish up.

Israel retaliated to an attack against them. Its all simple scientific law. For every action there is an opposite reaction. But the Israelis didn't want an equal one so they took it to the next level and have turned the clock back on Lebanon's infrastructure so they cannot buy the weapons from Syria and Iran that have hurt Israel in the past. They got tired of being poked to quote, pgrmdave.

[Calantyr]

Stuff

I'd agree with a large part of that.

The problem is that Hezbollah attacked Israel because they think Israel attacked first. Both sides see the other as the aggressor, no matter the realities of matters.

For Hezbolla, Israel simply existing is an attack against them. I really don't see this ending.

[thatguy486]

It will end when eiether hezbollah/hamas cease to exist or when Israel no longer exists.

The least likely being the latter.

[That_Guy]

Even if Hezbollah were to be destroyed, there's no telling if the fight would stop. Hatred of Israel is deep-seeded within Arab cultures- From an early age most Arabs refer to Israelis as pigs, and children's games are slightly different in places like Gaza (Such as "Kill the Israelis").

[thatguy486]

True, Im just saying that the attacks form hezbollah/hamas will end only when eiether criteria is met.

[I_am_the_best]

I doubt it will ever end fully. I mean, even if the governments agree to live in peace, there will always be groups of people who still don't want Israel there. Ever since Israel was created they have been arguing. It's the norm in a scary morbid way.

[thatguy486]

It depends, give a people enough time the newer generations of Arabs might grow old of the conflict and choose peace.