Vegetarianism Vs Meat Eating Options

[leopold]

The fish industry isn't a whole lot better, really. Some freshwater fish farms keep their fishes in conditions as cramped as any chicken battery, they're fed pellets with additives to "improve" the colour and texture and aren't really cared for. As for sea fishing, some of the methods used for catching aren't particularly friendly to other species and others indiscriminately sweep up whatever comes along, regardless of whether it's fit for either sale or consumption. Factoring in the overfishing element as well (cod is now considered to be close to an endangered species) and it doesn't look good for our piscine pals.

Personally, I'd like to see more guidance on our meat products. We get clear enough labelling for vegetables which are grown organically and eggs from free-range and corn fed hens, so I think we need to see more to identify more ethically reared/farmed/caught meat and fish.

Actually, isn't it terrible that we refer to these as industries? Or is it just me?

[believe]

The fish industry isn't a whole lot better, really. Some freshwater fish farms keep their fishes in conditions as cramped as any chicken battery, they're fed pellets with additives to "improve" the colour and texture and aren't really cared for. As for sea fishing, some of the methods used for catching aren't particularly friendly to other species and others indiscriminately sweep up whatever comes along, regardless of whether it's fit for either sale or consumption. Factoring in the overfishing element as well (cod is now considered to be close to an endangered species) and it doesn't look good for our piscine pals.

Personally, I'd like to see more guidance on our meat products. We get clear enough labelling for vegetables which are grown organically and eggs from free-range and corn fed hens, so I think we need to see more to identify more ethically reared/farmed/caught meat and fish.

Actually, isn't it terrible that we refer to these as industries? Or is it just me?

I don't care nearly as much as the condition about which fish are kept in, because I don't think of them in the way I do cats, dogs, etc. Not that I randomly torture fish, but yeah. The ocean fishing methods I do care about, especially as it effects dolphins, sharks and all.

[leopold]

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? Doesn't a trout or a salmon deserve the same level of basic reasonable treatment as a chicken? The salmon is an amazing example of piscine tenacity. The fact they survive as a species is nothing short of remarkable and I'd say that this alone should have earned it a bit more respect than to rear it in a metal tank full of murky water and feeding it pellets to make it's flesh more pink.

If that doesn't bother you, does that make you a fishist?

To be fair, though, if I stopped to consider all the harsh treatment of animals in food production, I'd stop eating it altogether. The reason I haven't is not because I don't care, I just choose to tune it all out. I'd still want to eat chicken and bacon, but I doubt I'd be able to kill them myself. Mainly because I'm not quick enough to catch a chicken and pigs are vicious little buggers...

[believe]

It's not necessarily about respect, as much as I don't like anything to suffer more than necessary. Well, okay, I would rather not kill animals at all and magically learn to love all vegetables. Until that happens, I accept that I will eat meat, but I do not want them tortured, abused or otherwise harmed. Killing a cow after a comfortable farm life is very different from being shut up in a cramped pen, shocked, then killed, etc. I have far less faith in the fish's higher brain functions and ability to process pain on the level of a cow. It doesn't mean I want them abused or hurt for run, just I don't think they have the functioning levels of mammals. The type of fish we eat, anyway.

And sure. >.> I am bigoted against fish!

If I could stop, I so would. Instead, I focus on the things I can like buying organic once I pay off school fees.

[leopold]

Hmmm... I could be wrong on this, but doesn't physical pain fit within the subconscious brain functions? I thought pain was the body's way of letting the brain know something is wrong, which would be more akin to a survival instinct. An animal may not know what pain is, but it sure as hell knows there's something amiss back there and it's a sitting duck for any predator unless it goes and hides sharpish.

Unless you're referring to emotional pain, which would then grant the cow with some sort of sentience. Which would then lead to the conclusion that cows are basically weak-willed doormats; how else could we explain a creature weighing in excess of two tonnes allowing us reedy, feeble humans to boss them about? They could kill us far more easily than we could them.

[Daria]

Yay for Leo! Thank you for being an omnivore who cares about fishing!

Believe: it isn't necessarily the pain the fish go through (although that is important)- freshwater farms are also in lochs, lakes and big bodies of water. The build up of nutrients, drugs, chemicals (including those to kill lice which salmon are plagued with) kills off other aquatic life. It can also causeseutrophication, affect local soils and makes the body of water all manky and unuseable. I know in Scotland, where a lot of fish farming goes on, there are piles and piles of laws, legislation and paperwork you have to go through before starting up (and even when you're running) a farm but the effects are still felt. I have no idea what the procedure is in America, or even in mainland Europe, though.
Fish are also pretty bad if you consider the amount of energy it takes to catch them, process them, keep them cold, move them about the country and get them to shops- and then from the shop to your house, cook it and put it on your plate. Not to mention chemical spills and leakages into the sea, diesel and oil slicks, and trash just thrown over the side of boats.

I'd be happy if everyone went back to having a smallholding. COMMUNIST MEDIEVAL COMMUNITIES HERE I COME!

[leopold]

You're very welcome, Daria. In fact, everything you said about the Scottish fish farming is what got me to reconsider my own view of farmed fish in the first place.

It does bother me that it seems more acceptable to mistreat fish than it does chickens. I wonder if it's because we're basically land animals and don't really understand what it's like to live in the wet stuff?

[Daria]

That, and the detatchment that arises from never seeing a fish in its natural habitat- we all may have seen it on tv, but it's much more likely that at some point you would have seen a chicken bobbing about in a field. Maybe. I don't know, I was brought up with them in my back garden so I have no idea what it's like to be entirely urban!

Also, chickens are a tad more intelligent than fish, but only by a little bit. I once taught one of my hens to play football with me

[believe]

leopold:

An animal may not know what pain is, but it sure as hell knows there's something amiss back there and it's a sitting duck for any predator unless it goes and hides sharpish.

I had read somewhere about there being doubts as to the sophistication of a ...lobsters? (I think) nervous system and it's ability to feel pain. Some sort of sea creature. I acknowledge survival instincts and tolerate that, as that's reflexive and instinct to some extent. In any case, I was comparing the awareness of a cow to a fish in processing pain, fear, etc.

Unless you're referring to emotional pain, which would then grant the cow with some sort of sentience. Which would then lead to the conclusion that cows are basically weak-willed doormats; how else could we explain a creature weighing in excess of two tonnes allowing us reedy, feeble humans to boss them about? They could kill us far more easily than we could them.

More or less, yes. And I don't know about being doormats, as much as being the creatures they -are-. Relaxed, often more docile, etc. In any case, I don't use superiority as a reason to just hurt something, even a doormat. And some cows -do- kill people.

Daria:

The build up of nutrients, drugs, chemicals (including those to kill lice which salmon are plagued with) kills off other aquatic life. It can also causeseutrophication, affect local soils and makes the body of water all manky and unuseable. I know in Scotland, where a lot of fish farming goes on, there are piles and piles of laws, legislation and paperwork you have to go through before starting up (and even when you're running) a farm but the effects are still felt.

Ergh. That's depressing and I didn't mean to sound like I was endorsing it. I don't think causing harm to the enviroment is a good thing and it seems like there -has- to be a better way. Not overfishing populations would be a start. I don't want oil spills and the like, I just feel less guilty about pain that they might not never feel compared to a warm blooded creature that definitely does.

[leopold]

Unless you're referring to emotional pain, which would then grant the cow with some sort of sentience. Which would then lead to the conclusion that cows are basically weak-willed doormats; how else could we explain a creature weighing in excess of two tonnes allowing us reedy, feeble humans to boss them about? They could kill us far more easily than we could them.

More or less, yes. And I don't know about being doormats, as much as being the creatures they -are-. Relaxed, often more docile, etc. In any case, I don't use superiority as a reason to just hurt something, even a doormat. And some cows -do- kill people.

That's not really what I meant. I'm a fairly docile sort of chap myself, but if someone came at me with a cattle prod, I'd be very inclined to do them a mischief first, in order to protect myself. Having a couple of tonnes of weight to play with would just make it a bit easier.

As for cows killing, I suspect the majority of deaths are wrong-place-at-wrong-time incidents of people being caught in a stampede or their car rounding a corner to find a bovine wall in the way. I don't think we can call these cows killers. Cows who've just given birth may be more stroppy and protective, and we all know how aggressive and terrirorial bulls can be, but even then I think the death of the human is more to do with the sheer size of the beefs overwhelming the human victim, more than any actual desire to kill.

What do you call a cow that kills? A moo-derer

Sorry, poor jokes are a speciality...

[Greeneyes]

At a whim (and after a poorly timed shopping trip involving BOGOF chicken), earlier this year I declared myself vegetarian for a month. Purely for reasons of expanding my mind, and also because I enjoy cultivating my friends' opinions of me as being a bit weird. Ten exciting thoughts on this (of varying relevance):

1) Quorn is pretty good.
2) Butter beans are pretty mank.
3) Tofu was originally pretty mank, but was later upgraded to being pretty good.
4) Except the silken stuff. That's still mank.
5) You have to eat a lot more food in order to get a full serving of protein.
6) Counting protein made me count other things. Never before had I actually cared about the nutritional content of things. I am now a healthier eater, and have turned into one of those people who read labels in the supermarket, who at one point I thought had a screw a little loose.
7) Nothing tastes as good as meat, but once you're on a roll, its pretty easy to stay on one.
8) Except for sushi compulsions. When I wasnt sushi, I really want sushi. (sushi = pretty good). I sustained myself with principles instead of sushi. It didn't taste as good.
9) People behave strangely to such a decision. I was genuinely surprised. It is as if they are unable to take it seriously, like it doesn't matter if you eat meat. To be perfectly honest, I always inwardly considered people who voiced things like this to be a little on the sensitive side, but it really is bizarre how people react. Needless to say, that perception of things is altered.
10) Perhaps the strangest thing I found from the whole experience is that at the end of my month, I found myself avoiding eating the meat in my freezer. I am still unable to place my finger on exactly why. It was not disgust at meat, or the idea of failing, I just thought of eating it and felt compelled not to. That continued for several weeks until I decided I didn't want to waste the meat, so I'd better eat it. I have continued to eat meat again since.

Other malformed thoughts:

I drink moo milk, although, something about it bothers me. I do not like the idea of where it comes from. That said, the taste of soya milk is a little too prominent. I think one day, I will commit myself to switching, and wait for my sense of taste to adjust, until my tea and my cereal tastes the same. Then I'm through with moo juice.

Eating eggs is also weird, when I think about it. I only really use eggs in cake though - I am not sure I would eat egg regularly now.

Neither of the above apply to advocaat though, which I could drink by the bottle.

I think one day I will turn properly vegetarian. I think I would be unable to eat something that I had personally killed, and for that matter, i think I would be unable to kill something personally. In my mind, it seems sensible that humanity as a whole will eventually become vegetarian, although, I find myself unable to articulate exactly why I think that.

This post lost coherency once it was outside of my head.

[Smiler]

T'is a fun argument and I'm not going to chip in too much cos I'm firmly a meat eater and think that eating ethically bred meat is fine provided it's not over bred nor wasted. However, i'm also not in a financial position to be too picky and must admit that haven't to this point dug too far into checking sources, which is perhaps wrong.

That being said I sat down today to watch the new That Mitchell and Webb Look on BBC 2 and found the best veg vs. Meat clip! It's the first sketch after the credits and can (for a limited time presumably) be found on the iplayer here. It's the first episode of Season 3's third episode but seeing as no-ones clipped it and stuck it on somewhere else I can link it to the iplyer link will have to do for the mo.

[TenaciousC]

I eat chicken, turkey, fish, and eggs. Rarely I eat some pork (my mom cooks the best country ribs and kabobs), and once or twice a year I eat beef. I rarely eat pork because my roommate is Muslim and since the cookware is hers, we can't really cook pork in it. Well, we can, but she wouldn't use it anymore. In my 2nd year of college, I ate a semi-raw hamburger at a bbq; I puked so hard, the meat came out of my nose. So then I said to myself that I would not eat beef much anymore. I don't really like the taste or texture of steak anyways.

My iron is low, but other than that, I personally feel better about what I'm eating than when I ate red meat regularly.

[Radaga]

Red, raw and/or very rare, dripping blood meat eater.

But I am also a big fan of the "Steak and Salad" setting: low carb yet sustaining meal

Fish, birds, game, pork, eggs, dairy, molluscs and crustaceans, fruits, greens, vegetables in general - basically anything that is considered or have ever been considered a delicacy for people, I would make a point in trying at least once, at the very least.

p.s. and yes, if it were something that resembled human meat (HUFU anyone?), that would not involve ethical and legal problems, it would be included in the above list.

[Hobbes]

At a whim (and after a poorly timed shopping trip involving BOGOF chicken), earlier this year I declared myself vegetarian for a month. Purely for reasons of expanding my mind, and also because I enjoy cultivating my friends' opinions of me as being a bit weird. Ten exciting thoughts on this (of varying relevance):

1) Quorn is pretty good.

It is, isn't it?

I was semi-vegetarian for a couple of months when I was with my ex (a veggie), and although she had no problem eating meat, I wanted to 'experience' being vegetarian for a while. As Greeneyes said, Quorn is actually pretty good. I can't get enough of the Quorn equivalent of Scotch Eggs and, equally, the prepacked sliced Quorn sandwich meats are rather tasty. I don't think much of it tastes anything like meat; indeed, the Quorn Chicken-style pieces don't taste anything like chicken, but it is a fair substitute.

Currently I am back to being a carnivorous beast, but I still buy some Quorn products as meat alternatives with lower fat and calorie content.

I must reiterate though:

Quorn Scotch Eggs = yummy yummy yummy, I got love in my tummy

[Daria]

I must reiterate though:

Quorn Scotch Eggs = yummy yummy yummy, I got love in my tummy

Ohhhh yes. Only thing I can actually say that I love from Quorn are their scotch eggs. It's funny the things you miss when being veggie for a long time- we recently tried Asda's veggie sausages and beans from a tin. Also delicious

[craziness]

i'm an omnivore but i am against animal cruelty. i feel that it's natural for us to eat other species, like the animals we have domesticated, but not to hunt endangered and wild species of course. i never feel guilty eating chicken or cow because both of those animals are pretty stupid in my experience. I feel kind of bad eating lamb but it sure is delicious.... i try to eat organic or free range meat without hormones and antibiotics because all of that stuff is scary and bad. i have heard the argument about vegetarianism being more environmentally friendly before, and being that i am a huge environmentalist, i have considered it, but by the same token i feel like once the meat has gotten to the market its already dead and if i don't eat it, it might just get thrown out. i try to stay a relatively functioning person in society, so i am not going to quit being a student to create my own farm to live off of, although it would be much better for the environment and my theoretical animals and me.


oh and i think i might actually feel more guilty eating fish than cows/chickens/pigs/etc because of overfishing and all.

[Daria]

Demand causes production. If the meat doesn't get sold, they cut down production.

/end spasm

[Faerieryn]

I am a meat eater. I try to eat as free range as much as I possibly can as I think you do more for animal wellfare if you eat free range than if you stop eating meat altogether- think about it, we're not the kindest creatures in the world- if the whole world went vegetarien tomorrow we'd mass slaughter all the food animals to make way for mass farming- if everyone bought free range, the battery farmers would have to let all the little batteries run free!!!
Joking aside.

I try to avoid eating baby animals- lamb etc as it doesn't make sense to me to kill something to be eaten when it is smaller than it would be as an adult. I think killing and eating small birds is wrong- why should five creatures die to feed a family of five when for much the same sort of taste you could eat a chicken! In all honesty I don't eat as morally as I would like to, simply because I don't have the money. Perhaps one day, in the future, I'll be able to afford to eat my morals!

[gothictheysay]

Yeah, I don't know if I get any points for not eating baby animals... I don't know exactly how the reasoning works out there, whether it's actually better or worse to partake of the younger ones. I have had lamb before and it is tasty, but after interacting with several lambs, generally lamb makes me go "OMG BABY SHEEPY NO I CAN'T EAT THAT!" I've never really had veal, so that's easy for me to avoid. But in the same way I don't feel a lot of guilt eating chickens as I find them annoying most of the time... yes, I do realize that this is a horrible method of determining guilt from eating animals, but since I do like meat and don't really plan on cutting it out completely it is sort of what I end up following. Beef is great, but I think if we all ate less cow and bred less cow for eating the environment would be better off.

note: I can't remember if I said any of this in my first post and I am kind of too lazy to go back and check if I did.

[Hobbes]

Demand causes production. If the meat doesn't get sold, they cut down production.

/end spasm

And/Or... the suddenly unrequired livestock, with no place to go in this instance, goes instead to a slightly more unnecessary slaughter?

[Daria]

*shrug* through that reasoning, people should eat roadkill.


(No seriously, they should do. Apart from mixi rabbits)

[gothictheysay]

And/Or... the suddenly unrequired livestock, with no place to go in this instance, goes instead to a slightly more unnecessary slaughter?

I feel that would only happen if meat consumption reduced drastically. If it's done gradually, i.e. more and more people become vegetarians over time, instead of a bunch of people doing it all at once, that wouldn't happen. I think the former situation is more likely than the latter.

[Hobbes]

And/Or... the suddenly unrequired livestock, with no place to go in this instance, goes instead to a slightly more unnecessary slaughter?

I feel that would only happen if meat consumption reduced drastically. If it's done gradually, i.e. more and more people become vegetarians over time, instead of a bunch of people doing it all at once, that wouldn't happen. I think the former situation is more likely than the latter.

To be fair, I was being fairly flippant anyway.

Having said that, just look at the awful slaughter that would occur if the promotion of vegetarianism became TOO good!

[Daria]

We'd have to start using vegans as fodder for the triffids.