Importance of Words to Music, a lyrical and melodic inquiry! Options

[trunks_girl26]

I resisted the urge to put this in Issues, even though it tends to be rather culturally relevant. Mods feel free to move this if they would like.

I just finished having a rather intense discussion with another forumite *cough*pwm*cough* which started as one about the limitations (or lack thereof) a choir has with music, as opposed to an orchestra and branched into one concerning the importance of words to music in general.

He tends to be of the opinion that words aren't as important as melody, while I feel that words can be as powerful, if not more, than the melody.

So, I put it to you, good Matazonians:

How important are words to music?
If words have no importance, would it be possible to take the same melody, put it to radically different phrases, and not not drastically change its meaning?
Does culture play a part in how important words are to music, if so how?

[PsychWardMike]

The simple fact that music without words exists and is equally - if not moreso - brilliant and beautiful than music with lyrics shows that words are secondary to music.

[Apollyon]

I tend to agree with PWM here.
To take the opposite of what you said, Daria, couldn't you take the same words and change the tone of the music behind them, therefore also radically changing the meaning? Both melody and lyrics are important parts of music, but without melody there can be no music, whereas there are as many songs with lyrics as without.

[trunks_girl26]

The simple fact that music without words exists and is equally - if not moreso - brilliant and beautiful than music with lyrics shows that words are secondary to music.

But words exist without music as well, and that can be equally, if not more brilliant then when they're set to music.

[trunks_girl26]

I tend to agree with PWM here.
To take the opposite of what you said, Daria, couldn't you take the same words and change the tone of the music behind them, therefore also radically changing the meaning? Both melody and lyrics are important parts of music, but without melody there can be no music, whereas there are as many songs with lyrics as without.

Sadly I'm not quite as cool as Daria

But there are just as many songs that rely on lyrics to relay the music's message. Take something like broadway or rap for example: broadway songs are meant to help further a point in the story or lighten the mood. Sure, if you're seeing the show, you could maybe guess what the music's point was, but in just listening to it, there are so many interpretations that someone could have, the music loses it's intended purpose.

And with rap, the music relies very heavily on rhythm and lyrics because of where it evolved from. Without lyrics, rap is reduced to very little in the way of music.

[Forever Unknown]

I think that in some situations, noise can say much more than words. I never used to feel this way until about a year and a half ago when I discovered 65daysofstatic, who are an amazing instrumental ("instruMETAL!") band.

Words, to an extent, are a limit. They can add depth to a song but generally they convey one meaning/issue/feeling per track. The music thus tends to back it up, meaning they're supporting one another and therefore limiting one another to that subject.

When it's just music, though, there are no limits. I'm not saying this is superior at all - it's nice to have a clear meaning in some music and lyrics support this possibility.

When it comes to instrumental music, there tends to be more layering of instruments and noise which can't so much be done when there are vocals because it would confuse the matter. It can also lift and fall at will without having to keep itself in check for the sake of a vocalist - same goes for rhythm changes, etc.

I'd suggest you give bands such as 65daysofstatic (in particular), Explosions In The Sky, Rachel's, Mogwai, Boards of Canada etc. a listen to see what I mean

I refer you to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WneDU-K3Sww
You'll have to excuse the video but they were/are poor little monkies. Never before have I heard something so jubilant, willful, strong and heartbreaking at once. I wouldn't just say this is 'music' - it's a living, breathing, sprawling and dynamic thing that wouldn't come across the same with lyrics.

You'll have to excuse the gushing, but really, 65dos are probably the most impressive and hard working band of the moment.

[Wookiee]

I also disagree with the OP. In fact, I often find instrumental music more interesting and "meaningful" as I am able to project my own feelings onto a song, and it can even be different whenever I listen to a particular song.

With regards to hip-hop, I'm far more interested if the track is well produced and musically interesting than if it's just a repetitive sample loop and a spit. More often than not, performers guilty of this are also the least interesting rappers.

I listen to an enormous amount of electronica, the majority of which is wordless, and it can be all at once thrilling and demented, and heart-tuggingly gorgeous. Venetian Snares and Squarepusher are both particularly good at f'king my brain sideways in this regard.

Also worth mentioning is Sigur Rós; not instrumental, but unless you speak Icelandic, or can comprehend Jonsi's fictional Hopelandic lyrics, the effect is much the same. Do the words matter if you don't understand them? Is the voice just another instrument?

I'd argue yes, it is. Because frankly, I don't give a toss what the words are to Toxic, 'cause I can totally shake my bits to it. And a boring, crappy song can have the most amazing lyrics, but I won't want to listen to it.

Actually, come to think of it, how is this even a debate? Of course the melody is more important. It's music. If all you're interested in is words, fill your iPod with audiobooks and poetry.

[Daria]

Sadly I'm not quite as cool as Daria

LIES! ALL LIES!

I would agree with both sides of the argument (and I was going to use Mogwai and Sigur Rós to emphasise my point).
Post Rock especially, is all about the melodies and the crecendo of the instruments. It can conjure up some incredible images in your head and move you to tears. Sigur Rós can do the same- his voice isn't just singing, it is being used as an instrument. But if you take other musicians, such as ... I dunno, Willie Mason. Ignoring the arguement that he can't sing, his music (usually just drums and an acoustic guitar or two) wouldn't have the same potency if it wasn't for his lyrics. Or, take for example, music in languages similar to your own (i.e German). I find it a little annoying that I don't know what the lyrics are because, unlike how the guy from Sigur Rós uses his voice, they usually just sing the lyrics as any English-singing band would. It is as though they are speaking gibberish instead of adding another instrument to the mix.

I think the best example of a song to highlight JUST how important lyrics are, could be one by an English rapper called Plan B. I have tried looking for the song name to no avail- I will edit this when I find it. Anyway, it is just him and his acoustic guitar, strumming a loop but rapping a story that runs backwards about this guy being stabbed (real Brixton gangsta, yo). The imagery he creates is incredible- the detail he gets into the song and the emotions are so real. Without the words, the music would mean very little.

I guess I'm going to sit on the fence with this one and say that it really does depend on what type and style the music is. The more complex the structure of the music, it doesn't really need a voice. But the more simple it is, perhaps it does.
*shrugs* I can't sing nor play instruments- I just knows what I likes.

[bryden42]

I think I am going to have to argue that you cannot compare the three things we are trying to compare here.

Poetry or prose.
Instrumental music.
songs with lyrics.

I personally feel that the three that I have mentioned here are seperate and distinct forms, And whilst they can overlap in their purviews and influence each other, they shoul dnot and cannot really be compared on an equitable basis.

[Wookiee]

I think the best example of a song to highlight JUST how important lyrics are, could be one by an English rapper called Plan B. I have tried looking for the song name to no avail- I will edit this when I find it. Anyway, it is just him and his acoustic guitar, strumming a loop but rapping a story that runs backwards about this guy being stabbed (real Brixton gangsta, yo). The imagery he creates is incredible- the detail he gets into the song and the emotions are so real. Without the words, the music would mean very little.

Sick 2 Def. And Ben's lyrics are important, and I really hope he develops and his writing matures, as he has great potential. But again, music; as a standalone track, the single acoustic guitar highlights the stark imagery of the song. And also, the meter and rhythm of Ben's delivery make it much more than just a recital. So yeah, lyrics, woo! I love me some lyrics, don't get me wrong. But still, I'm listening 'cause it's music.

[Daria]

I was considering that as the name, but wasn't sure. Thank you

Would you not say, though, that sometimes lyrics are just as important as the music? Rage Against The Machine, or any other political rock band for that matter, have a lot to say and just so happen (or at least used to) say it to music. Without the lyrics, the music would still be awesome, but it wouldn't have the same impact as it does WITH the lyrics.

[Wookiee]

I think I am going to have to argue that you cannot compare the three things we are trying to compare here.

Poetry or prose.
Instrumental music.
songs with lyrics.

I personally feel that the three that I have mentioned here are seperate and distinct forms, And whilst they can overlap in their purviews and influence each other, they shoul dnot and cannot really be compared on an equitable basis.

The question is "how important are words to music?", so I think it's perfectly valid to discuss the three forms in context. I think the point is that music and words can happily exist separately of one another, but my feeling is that when you introduce words to music, the music is what is really important.

I was considering that as the name, but wasn't sure. Thank you

Would you not say, though, that sometimes lyrics are just as important as the music? Rage Against The Machine, or any other political rock band for that matter, have a lot to say and just so happen (or at least used to) say it to music. Without the lyrics, the music would still be awesome, but it wouldn't have the same impact as it does WITH the lyrics.

I'm going to just disagree vehemently with Rage Against The Machine entirely. They needn't have released anything more than the first album, and even that is a rinse and repeat job. But to argue your point, the lyrics and vocals can add to the song, but if you just took the lyrics away and read them aloud, it would be a bit rubbish.

[Daria]

mmm... Perhaps. But their meaning- the political messages they are trying to get across etc etc- would still be there if you took them away from the music. But the music wouldn't be politically charged anymore.

[Wookiee]

But the music wouldn't be politically charged anymore.

I don't see this as a bad thing at all. I find overtly political music incredibly frustrating, as the majority of it is ill-conceived, poorly articulated, heavy handed and over-simplified. And a lot of it is by people like Bono and Zach de la Rocha. Also, someone please bleach Bob Geldof's brain for me? And set fire to his daughters, kthxb.

[Daria]

But the music wouldn't be politically charged anymore.

I don't see this as a bad thing at all. I find overtly political music incredibly frustrating, as the majority of it is ill-conceived, poorly articulated, heavy handed and over-simplified. And a lot of it is by people like Bono and Zach de la Rocha. Also, someone please bleach Bob Geldof's brain for me? And set fire to his daughters, kthxb.

Hehehehe, I will do if I get the chance.

I'm not saying all music has to be politically charged, but some being so is a good thing. Asian Dub Foundation, for example, creating anti-racism music. Surely it is a good thing if people can be positively influenced by it? So what if it is simplified, it still has the power to get people to their feet and realise things are wrong in the world.

[Wookiee]

Hehehehe, I will do if I get the chance.

I'm not saying all music has to be politically charged, but some being so is a good thing. Asian Dub Foundation, for example, creating anti-racism music. Surely it is a good thing if people can be positively influenced by it? So what if it is simplified, it still has the power to get people to their feet and realise things are wrong in the world.

Again, I love me some lyrics, if they're not cringingly bad, and I agree it can be a positive thing. But it's still not my primary concern with music, and I prefer lyrics to be... oblique? I suppose? Perhaps even pretentious, on the artful side rather than the "oh I have such a serious message to convey" way of things. I like lyrics to be part of the music, to suit the song and the melody. For example, I think Black Francis and Isaac Brock are two of my favourite lyricists, and they're able to write the most wonderfully weird and abstract stuff, utter nonsense, and make it sound like pure poetry by their delivery, the melody and the music.

For politicking and social commentary, The Holy Bible by Manic Street Preachers is a good one. James Bradfield wrote amazing music to Richey Edwards' most dense and f'cked up screeds, but if I just heard the words on their own, I'd quickly lose interest, because no matter how stark, how extreme they are, no matter how literate or articulate, on paper they're just deranged agit-punk manifestos. I think Edwards realised his words were far more potent with the music than without. And The Holy Bible is a brutal social commentary, but it's also a balls out rock album, and I think the fact it's both is what makes it brilliant.

[bryden42]

Has anyone here seen three men and a baby? I wouldn't nescesarily recomend it. but there is a great scene where tom selleck is reading a boxing commentary to the eponymous baby to get it to fall asleep. Steve gutenburg approaches him saying that this is awful, and he shouldn't be doing it. Toms reply is that it doesn't matter what you read as long as you read it in a soft and gentle tome of voice.

I'm much the same with music most of the time, If I'm an a mood for loud and angry I will listen to Rammstein, or Pantera or something, Quite alot of the time I have no idea what they are singing about, but I dont really mind because its loud and angry (although I do love looking up rammstein lyrics, They make me laugh sometimes).
Conversly if i'm in a mood for happy smultz i'll listen to maria muldaur, the fact that she's singing about taking your camel to bed is irrelevant to the fact that it is happy music.
If I want in depth heavy lyrical content that needs listening too, then i'll go leonard cohen or NIN.
It all has it's place, its all music (except for leonard which I would consider poems set to music). Its all important, just at different times and when I'm in different moods.
so I stand by my original statement that you cant really compare them.

[pgrmdave]

Ummm, doesn't it heavily depend on the specific song in question? A lot of pop music has rather unimportant music, but the message is in the lyrics, even more so for rap, where there doesn't need to be music, and more so for poetry (which is a form of rap, or rather, rap is a form of it). I think that there are some songs and artists whose music is poetry (Pink Floyd!) and both the lyrics and the music go too hand-in-hand to consider either more important.

That doesn't mean that I find lyrics more important, but that I think that they can be equally important, depending on the song in question. In general, there is more music without lyrics or in a language I don't understand, and in those songs, I find the music more important.

[Wookiee]

think that there are some songs and artists whose music is poetry (Pink Floyd!)

If I want in depth heavy lyrical content that needs listening too, then i'll go... NIN.

... yeah?

so I stand by my original statement that you cant really compare them.

Well, I did. So you can.

[trunks_girl26]

Ummm, doesn't it heavily depend on the specific song in question? A lot of pop music has rather unimportant music, but the message is in the lyrics, even more so for rap, where there doesn't need to be music, and more so for poetry (which is a form of rap, or rather, rap is a form of it). I think that there are some songs and artists whose music is poetry (Pink Floyd!) and both the lyrics and the music go too hand-in-hand to consider either more important.

That doesn't mean that I find lyrics more important, but that I think that they can be equally important, depending on the song in question. In general, there is more music without lyrics or in a language I don't understand, and in those songs, I find the music more important.

Yes, Dave, that was actually my original point. It does depend on the genre and song as to *how* important lyrics are, however I very much disagree with the opinion that they have no importance whatsoever, which was the opinion that sparked this debate in the first place.

[pgrmdave]

The simple fact that music without words exists and is equally - if not moreso - brilliant and beautiful than music with lyrics shows that words are secondary to music.

Could this not be turned around against you? The simple fact that powerful, beautiful, moving lyrics (both poetry and prose) exists without music shows that music is secondary to lyrics? (Not that I agree with this, but I disagree with the argument).

while I feel that words can be as powerful, if not more, than the melody.

The key word here is can. The original post doesn't say that lyrics are more important, but that in some songs, they are. Clearly lyrics are less important in instumental music - when they don't exist. However, there are some songs where the lyrics are of the utmost importance, they convey the full meaning of the song with or without the music.

[I_am_the_best]

I don't think they are as important. Music can tell a story without words, take Chopin's 2nd Ballade for example, it is probably possible to guess the story from it without hearing the poem first. And sometimes it's possible to write through music what is impossible to write through words, e.g. Debussy' Prelude de l'après-midi d'un faun - try writing that as a song! But all that said, I guess it really depends on the type of music. I'm sure a large majority of pop songs, since the actual music is generally very repetitive (verse, chorus, verse, chorus...), then the words are a lot more important and I wouldn't really enjoy it otherwise, whether they mean something or not. If the lyrics don't mean anything then I'll still like the song just as much, but if they do mean something then it will simply add to my liking. So, as important as lyrics are in pop songs, I don't think the meaning is as important.

Gah, no paragraphs.

[pgrmdave]

Music, while able to tell stories, cannot be as specific as words can be. It can give you a wonderful feeling of the blues, but only the lyrics can tell you why. Simon and Garfunkle's "Sound of Silence". The music conveys meaning, but only the lyrics give you those wonderful visuals. The Decemberists's Mariner's Revenge Song - While the music gives you and idea, the picture of

"Tie him to a pole and break
His fingers to splinters
Drag him to a hole until he
Wakes up naked
Clawing at the ceiling
Of his grave "

Is better at displaying the pure hatred than the music. There are many more lyrical songs that are good examples - a lot of Jethro Tull, anything where there are puns or word play. The music is needed, yes, but the lyrics are too. Without the music, the lyrics are often not as powerful, without the lyrics, the music isn't as specific in its imagery.

[Tarantio]

The simple fact that music without words exists and is equally - if not moreso - brilliant and beautiful than music with lyrics shows that words are secondary to music.

In an interesting twist to this, it can also be argued that songs (seperate to music in that they involve singing, and therefore lyrics) can, and have existed, and excelled, without music. The majority of hymns are sung without accompaniment, and indeed many of a bands best live performances are performed with little or no musical backing, "unplugged" so to speak.

I tend to see the two - music and singing - as two extremes of the same thing, rather than seperate entities. A lot of todays bands employ the difference in the two in their music, including long musical interludes in their songs, or songs that use lyrics as a form of music, or somesuch. In the case of pop songs, 99% of them don't rely on the lyrics as anything other than a catchy set of words to sing their tune to, but this isn't true of all music. Alternative and rock, as well as R+B, often have something to say with their songs, in which case the lyrics are completely the most important part of it. Singing a song in this way relies on the music to set the mood for the words, rather than the words giving substance to the beat of the music.

They're two extremes, I reckon, that you can see the difference between by listening to and comparing such artists as, for instance, the Chemical Brothers vs. the Manic Street Preachers, or Faithless against Modest Mouse. A couple of examples of the bands that have experimented with mixes of the two from my own collection are Bloc Party and Biffy Clyro, both of whom are reccomended listening.

[gothictheysay]

I can't really compare them either. Sometimes the lyrics add a lot, sometimes they don't. I can't say instrumental music is better than songs with lyrics. If the song doesn't have lyrics, OK, cool. If it does, then they're probably pretty important to the song. I can't find myself trying to pinpoint one being better or more important. I'm not actually very interested in this at all, because the importance very much depends... I think it's too broad and too varied for me to think about properly. (no offense meant, Ange dear! I just love music so much I couldn't possibly try to say which part of the music is better.) I'll just appreciate it the way it is.