Xmas, taking the christ out of christmas? Options

[kidvicious2punk]

there are some people who think that writing the short form "xmas" in place of christmas is nothing short of secular and disrespectful.

there was a segment on the daily show with jon stewart in which some one complained that the saying "happy holidays" is also taking away from the religious values of christmas.

in response,jon said [it was close to this,not exact],
"well,yes the holiday season is considering christmas,but,new years is also a holiday.sure,you could say 'merry christmas and a happy new year',but some of us have things to do."

maybe the fact of the matter is that the meaning of christmas is becoming less and less clear.but i dont think its that big of a deal that people would like to save time in writing out the whole word and simply came up with "xmas".

thoguhts?

[Calantyr]

'Christmas' was a celebration long before Christ turned up on the scene. Infact the birth of Christ was changed to match the EXISTING celebration so that more people could be convinced to celebrate and convert to the new religion.

Check some of the early churches that still exist around the middle east. I.e. the Coptic church in Egypt. They celebrate the birth of Christ sometime in January I believe, and it pre-dates what the more wide-spread churches decided on later.

So celebrating the 'Christmas holidays' in a more secular way is fine by me. There has always been a winter festival in many cultures for as long back as history recalls. Why should we not pay homage to such a special time of year. People come together, cheer is spread, we are thankful for the gifts the year has brung, and we prepare for the coming one. There is nothing especially 'Christian' about it. You can worship him at this time as well, but that isn't the totality of the 'holiday'.

And yes I do appreciate the irony of secular types still calling it a 'holiday', when they refuse to accept that it is a 'holy day'.

[kidvicious2punk]

haha,indeed.

i myself dont practice the christian religion.

i just think its funny how on the ONE day when EVERYONE is supposed have peace on earth and whatnot,people find even the littlest things to complain about.


:]

[Calantyr]

Hey, there is nothing more fun than arguing the toss with someone.

Why do you think I'm on Matazone today? It's deffinitely not for the eggnog.

[Moosh]

The 'X' in Xmas is actually the greek letter 'chi'. Which is an abbreviation of Christ.

/nerd

But yeah, I agree with Calantyr about the winter festivals going back for thousands of years, just because people need a pick-me-up in the dark, dull, depressing winter months.

[Calantyr]

The 'X' in Xmas is actually the greek letter 'chi'. Which is an abbreviation of Christ.

/nerd

That is bloody interesting to know. I suppose it all makes perfect sense now... gah!

[Astarael]

I think I knew that the X was an abbreviation for Christ but not which letter it was. Useful fun fact for me to pull out in little debates like this.
Anyway, there are other holidays in December that predate Christmas and are important parts of every religion. There's more pagan-type festivals than most people think and Hanukkah is older than Christmas and an important Jewish holiday. (Kwanzaa is a black pride holiday invented less than fifty years ago, so I'm not going to bother with it. Feel free to debate that if you want.) Why are some Christians whining about an abbreviation that may bother people of other religions less than seeing "Christmas" blared everywhere bothers them. "Xmas" is just a handy abbreviation to save time and bother people less. I've never seen the problem with it.
Anyway, it's a good point that New Year's is less than a week away, making it another happy winter holiday.

[Overfriendly_Kit...]

As a Roman Catholic I am deeply depressed that my religion is being hyjacked by profiteering organisations that charge people money to jump on to the "They're killing Christmas" bandwagon.

It sickens me that so many newspapers and media companies are creating a religious fervour against secularism - where there is actually very little (if any) evidence of Christianity being curbed at Christmas.

It makes me angry that in the name of Christian rights people are actually attacking other religions because of the overhyped lie that religions like Islam, Hinduism and Judaism get special treatment while Christianity is being censored.

I am bored of hearing the same old b.s. trotted out each year with tawdry idiots foaming at the mouth about Political Correctness going mad by banning the Little Baby Jesus ™.

I mean there is some group in the US who are targetting shops that don't have the word "Christmas" in their advertisements... They appear to be complaining because the celebration of Jesus' birth isn't being over-commercialised enough. Shouldn't they be more concerned about the true meaning of Christmas rather then the sales that inspire us towards gluttony, greed and coveting those material trappings which we cannot take with us into paradise?

Another one is with people like Fox news - complaining about the tree in New York being described as a Holiday Tree, and not a Christmas tree... Personally I find it offensive to my religion that these so called followers of Christ are worshiping what are pagan traditions, and calling it Christianity. The "Christmas" tree has NOTHING to do with Christ, or his birth. It harks back to ancient (pre-Christian) pagan traditions where animal entrails were wrapped on the branches of trees to celebrate the winter sabbat and herald in the gradual end of winter and welcome the begining of spring. This is not worshiping Christ. If we have trees in our living rooms then it is for traditional NOT religious purposes.

This links to a NOT WORKSAFE site (repetative bad language)... I think that it might be a touch biased, but it gives a good idea of just how some people are taking this campaign too far...

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

If we have trees in our living rooms then it is for traditional NOT religious purposes.

Umm...if the tree is part of a Pagan celebration, then surely it is religious, it just has nothing to do with Christ.

I always think Xmas looks and sounds ugly. I have no problem with what it's called, it really makes no difference to me.

[voices_in_my_hea...]

The 'X' in Xmas is actually the greek letter 'chi'. Which is an abbreviation of Christ.

/nerd

The one time I have something smart-sounding to say, and someone beats me to it.

[Astarael]

Good point, OFK. If we Christians (I'm a Methodist, for the curious) care so much about our meaning of Christmas, then why do we panic when it's not advertised absolutely to death? To me, it would seem like a more holy day if it wasn't advertised from the rooftops and fought over in the media.
Since I've had to do some research to duke this out another forum, allow me to mention that the Christian Advent wreath is derived from a pagan wreath for the four seasons. Just about every symbol of Christmas is stolen from some pagan religion or other if you do enough digging.
The site was interesting enough, and it had some good points, but it might be a bit more effective without the swearing.

[craziness]

The 'X' in Xmas is actually the greek letter 'chi'. Which is an abbreviation of Christ.

/nerd

That is bloody interesting to know. I suppose it all makes perfect sense now... gah!

OMG really? i seriously always thought it was "cris" as in cris-cross and an X is a cris cross..... i feel soooo dumb right now

merry xmas anyway

[Overfriendly_Kit...]

If we have trees in our living rooms then it is for traditional NOT religious purposes.

Umm...if the tree is part of a Pagan celebration, then surely it is religious, it just has nothing to do with Christ.

True, though as a Christian it is perfectly okay to have any kind of traditional / festive ornamentation - which is what the tree provides for us, so long as it is not combined with the religious... which is why I said if we have trees it should be for traditional purposes.

What I should have made clear is that those who follow some of the pagan traditions may well have a tree for legitimate religious purposes (though having spoken to my Celt Pagan mate he says that it should be oak trees, and you shouldn't uproot / cut them down just to haul into your home... go to the tree instead).

Good point, OFK. If we Christians (I'm a Methodist, for the curious) care so much about our meaning of Christmas, then why do we panic when it's not advertised absolutely to death? To me, it would seem like a more holy day if it wasn't advertised from the rooftops and fought over in the media.
Since I've had to do some research to duke this out another forum, allow me to mention that the Christian Advent wreath is derived from a pagan wreath for the four seasons. Just about every symbol of Christmas is stolen from some pagan religion or other if you do enough digging.
The site was interesting enough, and it had some good points, but it might be a bit more effective without the swearing.

True, I wish that advertising Xmas was only about the religion. Jesus was born roughly 2000 years ago... most probably in January, so lets celebrate. Not Jesus was born on the 25th of this month so buy early.

There are loads of pagan symbols that have been usurped into Western Christianity (many of the older and orthodox churches ignore this)... from the Yule log to the wreath... though there are Christian symbols such as the nativity, the wandering star, the host of angels, shepherds manger etc that are applicable for this time... (though I don't really see the point in having them other than for ornamentation - we shouldn't be worshiping idols after all).

Year that site does raise good points, but as you say the effectiveness is lessened - which is a pity, but I doubt the author was really aiming to score highly on the official debating circuit.

[Astarael]

Eh, it was a pretty good rant. Plenty of emotion, and you can tell that the author cares.
The wandering star thing is a tad pagan too. Comets, stars, and meteor showers heralded the birth of people who would change the world, according to some mythologies. I'll have to dig through my book of King Arthur myths to see if it happened for him, as I'm having a brain fart.
The ornamentation like manger scenes in yards can be a bit over the top sometimes, especially when you see the homeowners praying in front of the manger scenes. I've only seen it happen once or twice, but it's definitely a bit odd.

[oobunnie]

I dont get what the big problem is about. I had a man get angry with me a couple of days ago for writing Merry Christmas on the back of his bill. This was 2 days before Christmas. Anyways I asked him if his famliy was still planing on eating the turkey dinner and all the comercial stuff that goes with it. And he was so I really didn't see what his problem was. Well no I said "Merry f*cking holidays then." and walked away. Honestly how can you want someone to say merry anything to you when your wandering around rudely bothering rather busy people for no reason.
I'm not Christian but I do realize that the end of December is for the gemeral populize Christmas time; and there for I dont see what the problem is. I celebrate many non-religeous parts of Christmas just like most people do. So I don't understand why anyone would want to throw a stinking fit over the fact that someone says Merry Christmas to you because it not only festive, but what that person thinks is a nice/happy thing to say.

[Astarael]

Political correctness is such an annoying aspect of today's society. Sometimes it helps prevent cruel racist, sexist, or bigoted statements about others, but it's a bit ridiculous when it's carried so far that people can't say "Merry Christmas" (or "Happy Holidays" if you're on the Christmas-is-everything side) without someone exploding and getting offended. The only safe people to mock these days are white heterosexual Protestant males, it seems. Start poking anywhere else and you get a lawsuit. Bah.

[Jatopian]

Indeed, Astarael... but God help him if he complains, because then he is branded racist.

So now, to everyone I wish this that I culled from a cartoon while flipping (Chalk Zone, if it matters):
Merry Chris-Hanukah-mas,
Merry Chris-Hanukah-mas,
Merry Chris-Hanukah-mas,
And a Happy Rama-Kwanzaa-dan!

[bryden42]

It harks back to ancient (pre-Christian) pagan traditions where animal entrails were wrapped on the branches of trees to celebrate the winter sabbat and herald in the gradual end of winter and welcome the begining of spring.

Hi OFK, I thought that this was a bit weird and double checked with my wife (practising pagan) not sure where you got this from but this is (according to my sources) incorrect.
The pagan winter festival is Yule and it celebrates the death of the Oak King and the rebirth of both the Holy King and the Sun (also dionysus and baldur depending on what pantheon you follow). there are obvious tree conontations there. there is also a tradition of wassailing (sp?) which is going around to houses and asking for alcohol (specifically cider) to pour on to the roots of the trees in order to wake them up for the coming year.
There is also the Yule Log which is burned to bring good fortune for the coming year.
My wife knows of no rituals both now and in the past that involved animal entrails on trees.
It was my understanding that the tradition of the "Christmas Tree" was brought to England by Prince Albert when he married Queen Victoria in the 1800s.

anyway, happy non-denominational festive celebration to all

[Usurper MrTeapot]

The Yule log represents the Oak King and was made out of Oak, suprisingly. When you burn it, it represents the Oak King's death, scattering the ashes are sowing the seeds of the next Oak King who will defeat the Holly King at midsummer.

There isn't any evidence I've ever come across where trees were decorated with entrails of animals. It is suggested that the Druids hung candles from evergreen trees at Yuletide to bless them for being green all year round, and I'll have a flick through a few books and see if I can find where baubles and tinsle came from.

[Astarael]

Where did you get the information about the animal entrails on trees? I didn't really think about it at the time, but I did some research after seeing the above two posts and couldn't find anything. It sounds vaguely familiar, like I've seen this information before, but I just can't remember where.
I've heard about the Holly King, the Oak King, the Yule log, and so on before. I'll keep looking for the stuff about the animal entrails.

[Overfriendly_Kit...]

It harks back to ancient (pre-Christian) pagan traditions where animal entrails were wrapped on the branches of trees to celebrate the winter sabbat and herald in the gradual end of winter and welcome the begining of spring.

Hi OFK, I thought that this was a bit weird and double checked with my wife (practising pagan) not sure where you got this from but this is (according to my sources) incorrect.
The pagan winter festival is Yule and it celebrates the death of the Oak King and the rebirth of both the Holy King and the Sun (also dionysus and baldur depending on what pantheon you follow). there are obvious tree conontations there. there is also a tradition of wassailing (sp?) which is going around to houses and asking for alcohol (specifically cider) to pour on to the roots of the trees in order to wake them up for the coming year.
There is also the Yule Log which is burned to bring good fortune for the coming year.
My wife knows of no rituals both now and in the past that involved animal entrails on trees.
It was my understanding that the tradition of the "Christmas Tree" was brought to England by Prince Albert when he married Queen Victoria in the 1800s.

anyway, happy non-denominational festive celebration to all

Happy non-denominational festive celebration(s) to you too.

First off you have to be careful when talking about paganism, as it is simply a form of reference to so many other individual religions, and the one form that your wife follows isn't necessarily anything to do with the one my mate practices. There are at least fifteen European traditions that celebrate the winter sabbat, mostly independently of each other at the moment. Before the spread of the Holy Roman Empire there were hundreds of thousands. The Oak King is celebrated in different ways by different peoples, some call him the Green Man, others assign him a non-gendered role of the great oak, and there are many traditions here that don't even recognise the Holy King.

The practice of hanging entrails (both animal and in some instances human), can be found in many Central and Eastern European countries, with the practice being recorded by Roman intellectuals writing about the Empire's frontiers and the nomadic tribes they interacted with.

Among early Germanic tribes the Yule tradition was celebrated by sacrificing male animals, and slaves, by suspending them on the branches of trees. According to Adam of Bremen, in Scandinavia the pagan kings sacrificed nine males of each species at the sacred groves every ninth year. According to one legend, Saint Boniface attempted to introduce the idea of trinity to the pagan tribes using the cone-shaped evergreen trees because of their triangular appearance.

source: wikkipedia, though it goes on to say that this wasn't the influence for tinsel... which is contrary to what my mate has said and what I have read about in the Fortean Times and seen on a number of the many, many crappy BBC and Channel 4 documentaries about Christmas that they trot out each year (I'm sure Tony Robinson did one where he talked about this practice).

[Rykan]

I think it was on the radio I heard this but Xmas is a perfectly valid shortening of Christmas. Like what CheesesMoose was saying, the symbol and similar symbols were used in Christian imagery.

[Astarael]

Nice picture. I like the intricate Celtic-ish (they look genuinely Celtic to me, but I'm easy to fool) designs all around the edges particularly.
Huh. Interesting stuff about the entrails, but I'd be interested to know if anyone still does that these days. I can think of a few ways and places to buy some intestines, but I don't know if any modern pagans would want to bother. Would your friend know that, Overfriendly Kitten?

[Moosh]

I think it was on the radio I heard this but Xmas is a perfectly valid shortening of Christmas. Like what CheesesMoose was saying, the symbol and similar symbols were used in Christian imagery.

Yeah, technicaaly it should be XPmas, or Chi, Rho, mas. But XPmas would look to much like an advert for Micro$oft so yeah

/sorta spam

[Astarael]

*chuckles* I would get myself set up with a Linux system, but it doesn't seem to be compatible with most of my Forgotten Realms games. Micro$oft it shall stay unless I can overcome that little hiccup.