Israeli/Palestinian situation, A collapse into a third world war? Options

[I_am_the_best]

After the capture of Gillad Shalit and two other Israeli officers, Israel and Lebanon have been exchanging air raids destroying the 'peace' (comparitive to previous wars) that had been kept during the past decade. I would post a link to the BBC news site explaining the situation (which I'm sure you already know abbout) however the BBC is very biased towards the Palestinians. This morning, on radio 4, a reporter said (talking about the Israeli raids in Lebanon resulting in 50 civilian deaths) 'had this raid been in the day time, the death toll could have been higher'. This disgusts me because the reason that Israel is bombing during the night time is because they don't want to kill people, they just want the freedom of the prisoners. Palestinians want Israel anihilated.

Of course, I am very worried for Israel and fear a repeat of 1967 on a much larger scale however my fear is constricted because Israel has, no doubt, the best army in the world. Unforunately, the west is most likely to get involved. America supports Israel, Britain supports Israel's surrounding countries. It is unlikely that Britain and America will fall out but if America gets involved, then the war could escalate. If America is involved, then Britain most likely will follow, whether we will fight for Israel or the Arabs, I can't decide. And after this, who knows what the war could grow into.

Your views?

[pgrmdave]

America will not get deeply involved because of Iraq. We have too much stake in the region to be too openly supportive of Israel, whether or not we think they are in the right.

Edit: And it is amusing that your media are very biased toward the Palestinians, while our media tend to be biased toward the Israelis.

[Calantyr]

After the capture of Gillad Shalit and two other Israeli officers, Israel and Lebanon have been exchanging air raids destroying the 'peace' (comparitive to previous wars) that had been kept during the past decade. I would post a link to the BBC news site explaining the situation (which I'm sure you already know abbout) however the BBC is very biased towards the Palestinians. This morning, on radio 4, a reporter said (talking about the Israeli raids in Lebanon resulting in 50 civilian deaths) 'had this raid been in the day time, the death toll could have been higher'. This disgusts me because the reason that Israel is bombing during the night time is because they don't want to kill people, they just want the freedom of the prisoners. Palestinians want Israel anihilated.

Of course, I am very worried for Israel and fear a repeat of 1967 on a much larger scale however my fear is constricted because Israel has, no doubt, the best army in the world. Unforunately, the west is most likely to get involved. America supports Israel, Britain supports Israel's surrounding countries. It is unlikely that Britain and America will fall out but if America gets involved, then the war could escalate. If America is involved, then Britain most likely will follow, whether we will fight for Israel or the Arabs, I can't decide. And after this, who knows what the war could grow into.

Your views?

You know I've been suprised that I can find so few threads on the current crisis. perhaps because the Israel issue has been done to death? No matter.

First of all your accusation that the Israeli's have been misrepresented by the BBC (and others). The BBC DOES have liberal bent, but it is shown with an understanding there are naturally differing views and there is always a counterpoint to their allotted reports. The invention of RADAR hasn't completely removed the benefits of bombing at night. It offers lower visibility and less chance for intervention if enemy planes are scrambled. I have no doubt that the Israelies want to minimise casualties but there is ALWAYS more to war than just minding the sensibilities of the airchair generals.

And I take umbrage to the accusation that all Palastinians want the destruction of the Israeli state. Many do not. Of course Israel's actions in the past (and the Palestinions actions that may or may not have caused them) have not exactly fostered the most fluffy sense of well-being in the area, but the majority of Palestinians are content to work and live in the same world as the Israeli state. Perhaps because of the repurcussions? Who knows. Many have jobs in Israel, and far more realise that continued carnage will only harm them in the long run. Of course everyone always picks up on the extremes of any argument... but it is the extremists that are the reason for todays conflicts, not the layman in the street.

And the UK will undoubtable follow the US in this... escalation. I'm not saying this out of some duty of service to the US, it simply makes sense. Moral sense at any rate, though geo-politics is probably the least moral subject in human history...

Hezbollah are a part of the Lebanon state. They have been since the end of the civil war in Lebbanon. Part of the reason why the Lebbanon state secured *some* security was through deals with Hezbollah. It is not a joyous union, most people who support the democratic principles of Lebanon despise the union... but it is necessary to avoid a bloody civil war in the country.

As a result Israel targets many parts of Lebanon in retaliation for the kidnappings and attacks... and you know what? I think they are completely justified. Lebanon allows these extremists to maintain some sense of internal order. That is maintained, but this is the result to the wider international community. Short term goals, long term problems... but you can not blame Lebanon as a whole for the recent problems. To do so would completely discredit the widespread and dangerous effort to bring Lebanon out of crisis and into the modern world. Lebanon is not the villain, strong elements within are. Do not cast the entire country aside because it has such deep problems....

So yes, I think Israel has all the right in pursuing their captured soldiers. They are a nation of warranted conscription... if we disregard these soldiers plight, remember that any adult in Israel is subject to conscription through *need* (if I recall correctly). It has a duty to protect it's people... and I do not think anyone can say that it outright provoked this current crisis.

Maybe they have gone above and beyond what is required? I do not know. I am not a general and I do not know if targetting the entire infrastructure of a country is necessary to dislodge an armed 'terroristic' group sanctioned by said country... All I know is that Israel has to do something, and the Lebonease government is not helping. At least not openly.

Of course, as always, the loosers are the ones caught in the middle of such conflicts.

[That_Guy]

It's really more than meets the eye, at first glance. It could be that Israel is just using the captured soldiers as an excuse to invade Lebanon and Gaza.

But then again, it's also possible that the Palestinian underground counted on such an attack happening. They know well that they can't win by force, so they make themselves look as desparate as possible to gain the support of other countries.

[I_am_the_best]

but the majority of Palestinians are content to work and live in the same world as the Israeli state.

Yes but unfortunately the leaders are not happy. In Egypt for example, how did Hamas get elected?! They are a group designed specially for the destruction of Israel. IT's been said time and time again that the political leaders of the Middle East are mostly for Israel's death. And we're forgetting Iran, sitting quietly in the corner, I just fear what will happen when they strike.

remember that any adult in Israel is subject to conscription through *need* (if I recall correctly).

Yes, many of my cousins and friends have gone to the army or are currently in it. It is a very hard time for family and friends. There is little partiotism involved, just the knowledge that they have to and that is the way of life.

t's really more than meets the eye, at first glance. It could be that Israel is just using the captured soldiers as an excuse to invade Lebanon and Gaza.

I disagree. Israel has no reason to attack Lebanon and Gaza. Besides, Israel rightfully won over Gaza in 1967's Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim (Erm, war with six days). Israel simply wants to defend its state and live happily. It's just scary how far Lebanon has managed to reach with their shells, lets pray they can't reach any further!

[Witless]

You know I've been suprised that I can find so few threads on the current crisis. perhaps because the Israel issue has been done to death?

Yeah that'd be the main reason I haven't posted much in here. I mean.. if you look for it, there's big issues in a lot of places (insert the various issues of africa here).

Yeah Israel as a more mighty military.. but that's not a new danger to be quite honest. The current crisis, is more like chapter 102, in a chain of crisis..ess.. (is that a word?). I don't really have more to add to this topic that I haven't said in previous middle east flavoured topics. So... </spam>

[That_Guy]

I disagree. Israel has no reason to attack Lebanon and Gaza. Besides, Israel rightfully won over Gaza in 1967's Milkhemet Sheshet HaYamim (Erm, war with six days). Israel simply wants to defend its state and live happily. It's just scary how far Lebanon has managed to reach with their shells, lets pray they can't reach any further!

As I remember, Israel was originally formed on previously Arab-owned land- and the only reason they succeeded is because Europe wanted to wash their hands of pre-Holocaust mistakes. The Palestinians had no say in this. I don't think that's rightful at all.

Also, I don't see how bulldozing rows and rows of homes in between borders without discretion (Think Israel's occupation in Gaza) is "defending". I guess my (Not very well-coordinated) point is, both sides hate eachother's guts.

[monkey_called_na...]

as much as i gather from what i ahve read so far consisted of the first kidnapping's condition was the release of all the children from the other contries prisons.

i think that is a reasonable demand.

other then that i have been really very busy the last few weeks with what is happening in mexico, the wil, and the comrade from spaiun which shall be arriving at my house wensday... that doesnt speak english (or alteast a very limited amount). so i havent really been able to follow the events.

[Calantyr]

as much as i gather from what i ahve read so far consisted of the first kidnapping's condition was the release of all the children from the other contries prisons.

i think that is a reasonable demand.

Women and children, up to almost 5,000 of them I think.

I don't think it particularly fair OR sane considering that (I think) they have all gone to trial and been convicted of terrorist actions towards Israel and they're in prison in the first place to serve punishment for their crimes.

And No I'm not fond of locking up kids, but I'm also not fond of kids trying to blow up civilians.

As for the creation of the Israeli state in the first place... yeah that's a sticking point. If the European nations genuinely felt sorry for the persecution of the Jews then perhaps they should have given them land from within their own borders, not stealing someone elses. But the Jews decided on the Holy Land as it's their ancient homeland, so meh. And the Palestinians stole it from the previous occupants generations and generations ago. That's sorta the excuse.

Colonialism was never a good idea. The rather arbitrary carving up of it afterwards wasn't much better either.

[pgrmdave]

Israel pulled out of Gaza and Lebanon, and then this happened. Israel tried to be tolerant - not nice, but tolerant - and pulled out, trying to let everybody just live their lives, and Hamas and Hezbollah think it best to attack Israel. If France killed an English soldier and professed to want to wipe England off the face of the planet, would anybody stop England from attacking France?

[That_Guy]

Can someone please clear this up for me? Were the Israeli soldiers captured across the border, or did someone go into Israel to capture them? I'm not exactly keen on this.

[pgrmdave]

Hammas soldiers snuck across the border into Israel through a tunnel and they killed a number of soldiers (I'm not sure how many) and they captured one. I'm not sure, but I believe that Hezbollah also snuck across the border and captured two Israeli soldiers, but I haven't heard much about that.

[I_am_the_best]

As I remember, Israel was originally formed on previously Arab-owned land- and the only reason they succeeded is because Europe wanted to wash their hands of pre-Holocaust mistakes. The Palestinians had no say in this. I don't think that's rightful at all.

Also, I don't see how bulldozing rows and rows of homes in between borders without discretion (Think Israel's occupation in Gaza) is "defending". I guess my (Not very well-coordinated) point is, both sides hate eachother's guts.

I have always been told that the Jews fought for Israel and eventually bought it after the British cleared out and the UN offered it to them. The Palestinians weren't too fussed because the land was a rather large swamp. The Jews worked very hard on the land turning into the beautiful country it is today and after the Palestinians saw the potential of Israel, they disagreed. Besides, the Jews deserve Israel after being tortured like they were (and boy, can I tell you horror stories from it), 6,000,000 of them killed - that's almost the same amount of Israeli citizens.

I think that Israel is somewhat glad about the new prime minister. Instead of staying relatively calm and defensive, he is going for a more attacking approach proving the great potential of the army. Hezbollah, having weapons from many Arab countries, will be shown that they shall not use the weapons and if they do, shall be destructed. Besides, if they do use any nuclear weapons, Israel is so small that the surrounding countries shall too be affected.

[Calantyr]

I have always been told that the Jews fought for Israel and eventually bought it after the British cleared out and the UN offered it to them. The Palestinians weren't too fussed because the land was a rather large swamp. The Jews worked very hard on the land turning into the beautiful country it is today and after the Palestinians saw the potential of Israel, they disagreed. Besides, the Jews deserve Israel after being tortured like they were (and boy, can I tell you horror stories from it), 6,000,000 of them killed - that's almost the same amount of Israeli citizens.

I think that Israel is somewhat glad about the new prime minister. Instead of staying relatively calm and defensive, he is going for a more attacking approach proving the great potential of the army. Hezbollah, having weapons from many Arab countries, will be shown that they shall not use the weapons and if they do, shall be destructed. Besides, if they do use any nuclear weapons, Israel is so small that the surrounding countries shall too be affected.

Erm... the Palestinians were pretty fussed about the whole thing from day one. They were kicked out of their homes and had their land confiscated. And it wasn't useless swamp, this was valuable land along the coast.

And sure the Jews deserved something... but why should it be the Palestinians that gave them compensation for the holocaust made by Europeans? That's like me hitting you in the face and you suing a random stranger.

There is an awful lot of bad blood about the whole thing. But I'm not going to take sides as I think all parties have acted bloody stupidly in the whole matter...

[Izzy]

I think Israel is in their right to start attacking and blowing up Lebanon,(considering that they didn't release their captures soldiers) but I also think it would have made more sense to have a trade (if Israel had any of Lebanon's soldiers).

There's aslo been talk of a cease fire..How long do you think it'll take 'til it happens, or do you think that the UN will just let them blow the guts out of each other?

[pgrmdave]

A cease fire will come, likely within a week or so. A trade wouldn't really make sense for the Israelis, and it could set a dangerous precedent. A trade would mean that Israel would release people who could potentially harm Israeli citizens, probably would harm Israeli citizens, in return for Israeli soldiers, who would only be trying to prevent the harm. And it could make it more likely that Israeli soldiers are captured in the future to be used as bargaining chips.

Israel is fighting a war. People are dying on both sides. However, Israel was not, until recently, on an offensive, they were only defending themselves. War can only be won defensively if you can run your opponent out of resources, but with Israel's enemies being backed by Iran and Syria, the time it would take to run them out of resources is prohibitive - Israel had to go on the offensive.

[That_Guy]

Well, some invasion of some sort was definitely justified for Israel, but not to this scale. Blowing up bridges and shelling cities won't exactly help the sitiuation, because it's not that hard to hide two people somewhere in the mountains in a secret bunker.

[I_am_the_best]

But since Israel was made for the Jews, the Jews compared this to when they were in slavery in Egypt and were taken to the promised land, the land was their's at the very beginning at least... Perhaps what I have been told is a) a happier childish version and b.) particularly biased towards Israel.

^ But blowing up bridges snd shelling cities is proving to Lebanon and to Iran and Syria what Israel is capable of - and they are capable of a lot more! It's just a warning. They need to attack now or else they may never have the chance. It's odd though, a couple of years ago I was walking around Haifa without any fear at all (except for the disturbingly high security: soldiers walking around with machine guns, numerous baggage checks even entering markets...) and now it is being fled and bombed.

However, many citizens are very pleased about this war and believe that there shall be a positive outcome to it. It is time for Israel to take the upperhand and to anihilate terrorist groups and those for the destruction of Israel, and they shall win no doubt.

[Calantyr]

All the nations in the 'Middle East' know exactly how powerful Israel is. It's called a regional superpower for a reason.
It has been attacked numerous times in its short history. A few times all its neighbours have attacked it at once, and it has emerged victorious every single time (I think).

The Six Day War is a case in point. It's neighbours were gearing up for war and rattling their sabres threateningly at Israel. So Israel launched an offensive against all of them at once and beat the hell out of them.

In fact I do not think a nation has declared war on Israel since the Yom Kippur in '73, where they managed to beat back both Egypt and Syria at once before the cease-fire came into effect.

Don't mess with Israel, they have big sticks...

[pgrmdave]

The problem is that often it seems that Israel's neighbors provoke it and then complain when Israel attacks. An (imperfect, incomplete, impromptu) analogy:

Two children, Harry and Larry, are sitting in the back of a car. Harry starts to poke Larry. Larry complains to his parents, and they tell him just to ignore it. Well, Harry keeps poking Larry, and irritating him. This goes on so long that Larry just can't take it any more and punches Harry hard. Which one is in the right? Harry used inequal force, but only after trying to be peaceful. Larry was hurt badly, but had many chances to stop poking, and thus not be harmed by retaliation.

[I_am_the_best]

Inequal force? I think that it is equal force really. The Palestinians have been bombing Israel almost every week with suicide bombers, you just don't hear about it as much anymore because it's no longer news, just a daily occurrence. And now that Israel starts to bomb them back it's news, so one hears about it. If Larry had a background of bullying and rejection since the womb and Harry had been hitting him on the arm instead of poking...

[That_Guy]

Revenge isn't justification enough- the invasion of Lebanon will only provoke these suicide bombers even more, and just because a group of rogues are attacking a country does not mean that said country can go about randomly attacking cities. The Israelis were probably as happy as all get-out when two of their soldiers were captured, it gave them justification for a full-scale invasion on Lebanon (Which will probably end up concluding with occupation and a puppet government) without having to offer an explanation to the U.N.

[I_am_the_best]

^ They're not invading Lebanon. They don't want Lebanon. They just want Israel. Lebanon is being bombed. And it's not just a group of rogues, it is almost the entire of the Middle East who are attacking them.

Also, I don't really agree that Israel was happy about the captured soldiers. Of the people I've spoken to in Israel, a large majority were simply scared of what would come next. It wasn't really a good event, it was more a final straw. It's not like they're looking for excuses to attack, why would they bother? It's a matter of life and death for the entirity of Israel.

[That_Guy]

Are you kidding me? I just saw on the news about how Israel was just getting ready to occupy a city. And as for a matter of life and death, bombing civillians isn't going to save Israel. Heck- it's probably going to hurt them. Blood will not clean blood. I thought we had learned this from the sitiuation in Iraq- the number of suicide bombers spiked since the invasion in 2001. The only reason Israel is in trouble right now is because they have refused to pay the Piper on their land, not one penny of consolation to the people they have stolen it from.

Besides, Israel has one of the best armies on the planet. Why would they even bother putting up with all the attacks on them if they didn't have any moral obligation holding them back? The Israeli military brass probably went in there with intentions closer to flattening cities out of rage than to rescuing soldiers.

[I_am_the_best]

I am not sure which news you're watching, it sounds fairly biased. Israel doesn't want to invade Lebanon. They don't want Lebanon. What on Earth would they want Lebanon for?

And it is a matter of life and death. If Israel sat quietly sipping cups of tea whilst Hezbollah planned their attacks, they'd probably be dead by now, all of them.

They didn't go in with the intention of flattening citie out of rage. If they were angry, don't you think they would have done something years and years ago? This is almost 60 years of on and off fighting.

I think perhaps Hezbollah took these two soldiers to almost egg the Israelis on and tease them slightly. They are very stupid, they should know who they're messing with! Also, Israel does warn civilians to get out of the cities before they bomb them, they're bombing systematically. Lebanon is bombing randomly. Israel wants to destroy Hezbollah, the civilian deaths are just what come from war and you can't help it.