The Draft Options

[Patient #212]

I think we all know what it is. Anyway, this seems to be a political topic thrown about quite a lot lately. Here we go:

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq?

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

Just some topic starters to get you thinking, but feel free to say whatever or go off on other related ideas. Guidelines, not rules. I'll be back with my opinions when things have heated up a bit more...

[Sir Maxerpopple]

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq?

We don't need to, we have an armed forces 3 million strong, we're set.

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

Mixed feelings, some for, some against. It'd get nasty.

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

If we're invaded and troops are needed, yes it is justified, otherwise I can't see the purpose unless we get into another world war where we need sheer numbers of troops to win.

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

I have no problems with compulsory military service, like the Israelis do. Creates character and unity.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

Comply. I obey the law. And anyone who isn't physically unable to comply ought to as well.

But don't worry about us needing troops in Iraq, we have plenty, there won't be a draft any time soon. We can also pull our troops out of places like the Korean DMZ, they aren't really there for any good reason.

[Tomoyo]

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

Patriotic "Duty" should never come before personal values. The country that a person is born in is a completely arbitrary, and no one has any choice in the matter. Therefore, I don't understand why people feel the need to become so violently attatched to their countries.

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

YESSSSSSSS.... the government of the United States was originally instated to be a government of the people, by the people and for the people. How can a government be serving its people if it packages them up unwillingly and sends them off to fight in a war they don't believe in? And sooo many people are against the war in Iraq.

The whole purpose of the U.S. going to Iraq [according to the government anyway] was to rid a country of a Terrible Dictator who was imposing on the rights of the Iraqi people and threatening the safety of the whole world. Hussein is criticized for not allowing the general public any say in the government. It would just be hypocritical for the U.S. start drafting people without allowing them any say in the matter.

Besides, when are people going to figure out that WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER?

[tptcow]

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq?

I am probably incorrect, but I think the U. S. has around 1.4 million either only in active service, or overall.

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

heh...

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

In cases such as World War two, the patriotic duty would outway personal choice.

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

Using the wars in which the U. S. was involved in the latter of this past century, yes.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

If I found out that the draft was going to be reinstalled because of the war in Iraq, I know of a possible way I could get out. If that failed, then there would be no way of getting by for me.

[ravein]

If this was a war I supported or felt was justified, I would go in a second. Being that it is not.. I would move to Canada if drafted. Actually I am already thinking about it, but that is beside the point. I think there is one other thing people have not thought about. In the fight for equality, women have put themselves on a level playing field. We have fought to be treated the same as men. What will the female reaction be if the draft is changed to include women. Women are quite capable of fighting in war, and carrying their own load. But will they want to? Are the American people ready to see their female citizens being pulled into a bloody war. I feel as a moral of the equality we fought so hard for, we should. Being a female, if this was a war I supported I would go if drafted. Being that it is not, as stated above.. I will not lift one finger to kill a Iraqi citizen who is just defending their home.. I am taking my happy arse to Canada

[Phyllis]

No, I don't think the US would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq. Like Maxerpopple pointed out -- we have plenty of volunteer troops already. If the US did reinstate it...there would be a lot of protests. There already are, concerning the war in Iraq, but it'd divide our country further between the extremely patriotic people who think America can do no wrong *coughbscough* and the people who are critical of the way our government does things. I personally think that military service should be completely voluntary...and we do have a ton of volunteers. I'm just not crazy about the idea of my government commanding me (or anyone else who feels strongly against such things) to kill for them. No, thank you.

If I was in a position to be drafted...I wouldn't worry at all. Well, assuming it was in the next year, anyway. They wouldn't take me on account of me being on blood thinners...I'd just have to go through a physical and that would be that. I wouldn't be much good to them. An obese woman who has a high probability of bleeding to death from very slight wounds. Yeah, that'll win the war. However, if my husband was in a position to be drafted...that'd be a different story. We'd seriously go to Canada...not like when I joked about it with the healthcare...seriously. The same if I found myself physically able to be drafted. I feel no patriotic duty to kill anyone and/or be killed. I'm a big critic of our national government (my own state government, that's a slightly different story...but I wouldn't go to war for them either)...why would I risk my life for something I wholeheartedly do not believe in?

[Polocrunch]

I'll just re-adjust these for UK citizens:

Do you think the UK would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq, or because UK troops are overstretched globaslly?

No, it would only encourage the British government to send us on yet more military escapades. I'd prefer that we stuck to peace-keeping in collusion with other nations and the UN. If we're running low on troops we should apply to the UN for legitimate peacekeeping troops.

If the UK did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

Pretty badly, seeing as how we're a bunch of sissies. Sure, a couple of fascist idiots would love every minute of it, but they'd be in the vast minority. It might do some good for all of those good-for-nothing louts that seem to hang around everywhere and damage our society. But that's just me being bitter and insensitive. Better to solve any societal problems by changing our society, rather than shipping our thugs off and giving them weapons training.

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

Patriotic duty is a bit of a joke to me, but then I don't live in a time where we are under credible threat of conquest by another power. Any threats to our democracy will come from within, so "patriotic duty" is no longer a valid concept. Same goes for you Mericans, by the way. Patriotism isn't really necessary any more.

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

Hell yes! Forcing someone to leave their home, perform hard labour and spend time in poor living conditions without having committed a crime? Sounds like the ultimate police state to me. Plus, you're making people kill others. Murder and coercion aren't really conducive to the protection of civil liberties.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

I'd move to Europe or Canada without a second thought. No way am I being dragged off and forced to kill people. Nor am I about to have my life interfered with for any cause. If I think it's worth fighting for I'll sign up voluntarily. Otherwise you'd have to catch me at Customs and take me away at gunpoint. I also value my life extremely highly, and I would never be able to kill someone.

[oobunnie]

Well I dont live in the states but I'll still answer.

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq? No, from what I understand you lot have a very large army. So I dont think calling up random citizens for no reason is very good. Unless that is you are planning to start taking over more countries, because then if theres anything that risk has taught me, you need enough people to leave behind as you move on.

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react? Bloody revolution. No thats a bit strong, but there would be alot of protesting. Some will disagree with it on moral grounds, others just wont want to leave the luxuries we have.

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice? Little bit of A little bit of B. Under most circumstances it should voluntary. In some extreme times however (ie. World war, your country being invaded) then I think drafting is more justified, but I wouldnt call that " patriotic duty".

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?
Yes. Is there anyway to answer no to this. Like I said in my answer above, there are sometimes that we have to put our civil liberties aside, but I dont think it should be done without darn good reason.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge? If I lived in the states I would either dodge to Canada, or take some drugs a couple of nights before I did my physical. If I agreed with the reasons why the had to draft, well they wouldnt have to draft me because I would have already signed up.

As for women in drafting, I think then wouldnt simply because the idea of daughters coming home in body bags hasnt been able to sink in yet. The guys do have a few more years of being in th army and a couple more world wars under there belt. So I think its mostly about the reaction people will have to one gender over another coming home dead.

[Dreams On Hiatus]

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq?

No.

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

They'd be outraged. I'd be outraged.

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

Personal choice, personal conscience; that is more important than patriotic duty.

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

Yes.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

I would refuse. They can throw me in jail. It's called civil disobedience.

[artist.unknown]

I do not agree with any draft, anywhere, because I do not believe in armed conflict. However, in this case, may I throw another thought into the arena?--the war has been put into action by what could be called a modern aristocracy. It's no secret that one must be ridiculously rich to support campeigns, etc. However, this war is being fought mostly by underpaid men from the lower classes. I have a sick suspicious that if a draft were instated, support for the war would drop dramatically; after all, by that point, it levels the playing field. If the moneyed classes who support the war for the sake of their bloody great cars suddenly find their sons being shipped off to war, I wonder if they'd support it anymore?

Personally I believe military service should be voluntary. Flipping through the papers this morning I read a quote from bush praising the "mighty" American military. Does that kind of talk only disturb me? Propenganda speech--building up the egos of a warring mass--that is disturbing. This comes from the one waving around a "Kein Blüt für öl" poster at protests--yes, I am aware of what this ego and compulsory military service can do to a country. There is the principle of the thing as well; I am antiwar due not only to pacifistic views but also because of the motivations behind this war in particular. I refuse to say the flag salute or anthem of any country because I cannot always promise I can agree with or comply with it, so why should I swear I will? No sane general would want me in his ranks, drafted or no.

Although I am in no real danger of being drafted, I would say that if I were I would do anything in my power to avoid combat at least (mein vati, oncle, and at least two or three other relatives are ordained--it wouldn't be strange if I followed that tradition). If not I would leave the country or allow myself to be jailed. My copy of Civil Disobedience was so ragged I needed to duct tape the binding; I agree with Thoreau on this matter entirely.

[Patient #212]

Do you think the U.S. would have any justification in reinstating the draft due to the war in Iraq?

Absolutely not, of course. We have quite a substantial military. I suppose it's possible that the we could expand our realm of military conquest to the point where troops would be spread thin, but I can't really imagine it.

If the U.S. did reinstate it, how do you think the general public would react?

I can't help but think that not very many people would be anything less than very angry. People who were already against the war would be naturally outraged, those that supported it from a distance would probably change their minds if they found themselves directly involved, and only the hardcore supporters would be left.

Do you think military service should be completely voluntary or are there some cases in which patriotic duty outweighs personal choice?

Completely voluntary. I don't believe "patriotic duty"-- whatever that is-- is justification for anything. In fact, things like unconditional belief in a cause just breed blindness, and that's never good. I suppose pride in one's country is fine, but it shouldn't dictate one's life. Personal choice is paramount in this situation, I think. If a person believes in something, they'll choose to step forward. If I thought something was important enough to die for, I'd do it (although, thus far in life, I haven't seen much that is worth it).

Do you think the concept of a draft goes against ideals of personal liberties?

Yes. The government should not have the right to rip people out of their lifestyles regardless of their beliefs and force them into the military. Even if you support the idea of a draft, I don't see how anyone could see it as in line with personal rights.

Creates character and unity.

I always thought that "builds character" thing was odd. How does it build character? Shouldn't you be able to create your own character through whatever means you choose in your life? It's an inborn thing, not something a drill sergent tells you to have. If anything, following shouted orders, dressing in uniforms, and following strictly enforced rules destroys individuality, I should think.

What would you personally do if you found yourself in a position to be drafted? Would you comply or dodge?

The war in Iraq is not something I believe is good and I wouldn't want to be forced to ship out to the Middle East and murder people. I'm fairly sure I'd be settling down in Canada.

As for women in drafting, I think then wouldnt simply because the idea of daughters coming home in body bags hasnt been able to sink in yet. The guys do have a few more years of being in th army and a couple more world wars under there belt. So I think its mostly about the reaction people will have to one gender over another coming home dead.

Hmm. I'm 99% sure they couldn't get away with NOT drafting women. While it's probably true that people in general wouldn't be used to or like the idea of their daughters going off to war, the government couldn't come out and say "one gender is more fit to die than the other". Historical tradition shouldn't have any bearing on who's drafted and who's not. As ravein said, women want equality. How can we suddenly say, "Oh, well you men are much better cut out for this than we are. We take it all back. We just meant equality in all things not involving danger."? I don't want to go to war, but my excuse isn't going to be that I'm female.

[Silver Star Ange...]

I don't think we should have a draft. You should be able to choose if you want to throw yourself into a battlefield. Also, drawing random people might lead to not enough servicemen having good experience or training.

[Tigersong]

I was born and raised a pacifist in a family with a long military history, so my opinion can vary from day to day, but...

In my not so humble opinion, any government that forces people to fight in a war they feel is unjustified is acting as a dictatorship, not a legitimate democracy. I believe that conscientious objection is a right for every person. For example, Mennonites would be commiting a grave religious sin in their mind if they went to war. As a socialist, I'm all for government involvement in our day-to-day lives, but that's going to far. It's is a breach of personal liberties, for sure.

If I was called on to go to war in a cause that I felt was justified (ie. against Hitler), then I would consider it. I wouldn't deal well with the rigours of war. I'm just too fragile, physically and mentally. As it stands, there's no way in heck that I'd go to war against Iraq, a war that has no justification and was the result of neoconservative misrepresentation of the truth.

[Sir Maxerpopple]

I always thought that "builds character" thing was odd. How does it build character? Shouldn't you be able to create your own character through whatever means you choose in your life? It's an inborn thing, not something a drill sergent tells you to have. If anything, following shouted orders, dressing in uniforms, and following strictly enforced rules destroys individuality, I should think.

The unity thing is more important for me, but strong military character is not bad. Prussia and Sparta had strong military values and had good, strong states.

[Tigersong]

The unity thing is more important for me, but strong military character is not bad. Prussia and Sparta had strong military values and had good, strong states.

Yes, and Spartans left newly-born babies that were too "weak" for the military upbringing on the slopes of Mount Taygetos to die of exposure.

A strong military state doesn't mean a strong moral or healthy state.

(getting off topic, I know. Apologies).

[Sir Maxerpopple]

Spartans did a lot of cruel things. They also did a lot of good ones. Just because we adopt some more miliary society values doesn't mean we will become Sparta. And I would say they had rather high moral fiber. Their government was surprisingly uncorrupt.

[artist.unknown]

The unity thing is more important for me, but strong military character is not bad. Prussia and Sparta had strong military values and had good, strong states.

I agree that as a society we have fallen into a state of sloth and poor values and must constantly feel victimised. However, being able to shoot people is not "character", nor is the ability to mindlessly follow directions. The sort of things that go on in military bases do not seem to display "strong values" to me. Surely we can be more clever about building character strength in our societies without war? Compulsory military service is a cheap, self-serving answer to this problem.

[Tigersong]

Spartans did a lot of cruel things. They also did a lot of good ones. Just because we adopt some more miliary society values doesn't mean we will become Sparta. And I would say they had rather high moral fiber. Their government was surprisingly uncorrupt.

True, it was a (relatively) uncorrupt government. It also actively promoted and practiced infanticide in the interests of war.

All I'm saying is that just because it was a strong military state and a stable state doesn't mean that it's a "good, strong" state. After all, probably one of the strongest military states the world has ever seen was Nazi Germany.

[Sir Maxerpopple]

All I'm saying is that just because it was a strong military state and a stable state doesn't mean that it's a "good, strong" state.

Neither am I. The point is that it can help, I'm not saying we become another Sparta.

[Polocrunch]

Though Sparta had some admirable traits, they wouldn't necessarily carry across to modern society. Military discipline and obediance are some of the main traits of fascism. Because of the nature of armies, they tend to become breeding grounds for intolerance and fascist attitudes. This is not the way I would like to see modern democracies moving. I fear that things could easily spiral out of control.

Additionally, the Armies of numerous countries have frequently interfered in the running of the country when they are made stronger. Armies need to be kept small and distant, and people need to have a healthy wariness of their armed forces.

[Tigersong]

Though Sparta had some admirable traits, they wouldn't necessarily carry across to modern society. Military discipline and obediance are some of the main traits of fascism. Because of the nature of armies, they tend to become breeding grounds for intolerance and fascist attitudes. This is not the way I would like to see modern democracies moving. I fear that things could easily spiral out of control.

Additionally, the Armies of numerous countries have frequently interfered in the running of the country when they are made stronger. Armies need to be kept small and distant, and people need to have a healthy wariness of their armed forces.

I concur.

The only legitimate reason I can see for a military these days is for the sake of international peace and security.

But hey, Alex, aren't you like, Mr. Junior Army Guy? In like, the cadets, or something?

[MistressAlti]

A friend of mine, upon turning 18, just registered for the draft. He did some research on it at the same time, and he found a strange fact... women aren't even allowed to voluntarily register for the draft. He had never thought about this before. Shouldn't that kind of discrimination be illegal?

He sent an email of inquiry to the Selective Service, asking them about why women can't voluntarily register for the draft, and why it isn't considered discrimination that they can't, and this is a direct quote from the letter he got back:

The only observation I would make is that registering with Selective Service is not a "right," but a legal requirement.

...

[Tigersong]

A friend of mine, upon turning 18, just registered for the draft. He did some research on it at the same time, and he found a strange fact... women aren't even allowed to voluntarily register for the draft. He had never thought about this before. Shouldn't that kind of discrimination be illegal?

He sent an email of inquiry to the Selective Service, asking them about why women can't voluntarily register for the draft, and why it isn't considered discrimination that they can't, and this is a direct quote from the letter he got back:

The only observation I would make is that registering with Selective Service is not a "right," but a legal requirement.

...

First off, you can voluntarily register for the draft? Huh. Whodathunkit!

Second, yeah, that's pretty blatant discrimination, but it comes from an old mindset and worldview. I doubt it's ever been changed -- or that it will ever be changed -- because the whole concept of the draft belongs to a different era, a different paradigm.

[gothictheysay]

1. It SHOULDN'T be a legal requirement

2. They don't let women join? I can understand not drafting them (such hardset tradition, I know to be equal we should be, but we have enough problems today anyway to overlook that fact for now) but not letting women join...that's...uggh.

[Phyllis]

They don't let women join? I can understand not drafting them (such hardset tradition, I know to be equal we should be, but we have enough problems today anyway to overlook that fact for now) but not letting women join...that's...uggh.

Nope, they sure don't let women register with the Selective Service. And here is a page that explains why. But if you're a man and you don't register within a certain amount of time after you turn 18, you can be thrown in jail.

I didn't know it was a legal requirement to register with Selective Service until my husband got some papers in the mail telling him he had to register or he'd be in big trouble. He'd been 19 for quite a few months when this happened. Very bad timing as well -- he got the papers right after 9/11...within a month, I think. Before that, I thought it was only a requirement if you were applying for a FAFSA to get federal money for school (it's a question on the application). So, he registered. Neither of us were too happy with that outcome.

Here's a quote from the main page of the Selective Service website (check out those guys on the main page -- they look WAY too happy about registering...oy).

Notwithstanding recent stories in the news media and on the Internet, Selective Service is not getting ready to conduct a draft for the U.S. Armed Forces -- either with a special skills or regular draft. Rather, the Agency remains prepared to manage a draft if and when the President and the Congress so direct. This responsibility has been ongoing since 1980 and is nothing new. Further, both the President and the Secretary of Defense have stated on more than one occasion that there is no need for a draft for the War on Terrorism or any likely contingency, such as Iraq. Additionally, the Congress has not acted on any proposed legislation to reinstate a draft. Therefore, Selective Service continues to refine its plans to be prepared as is required by law, and to register young men who are ages 18 through 25.

Hmm. Interesting. I also found this:

Residents of Puerto Rico, Guam, Virgin Islands, and Northern Mariana Islands are U.S. citizens. Citizens of American Samoa are nationals and must register when their permanent address is in the U.S. This also goes for a national or citizen of the Republic of the Marshall Islands or the Federal States of Micronesia if they live in the U.S. for more than one year for any reason, except as a student or employee of the government of his homeland.

Funny. I believe residents of PR, VI, and etc. aren't allowed to vote in our elections...yet they have to register with the Selective Service. Figures. Also, illegal aliens are required to register. Yeaahh...that's gonna happen.

Also, here is a page with information about what would happen in a draft if one were to occur.