Intersexed Babies Options

[Phyllis]

This came about from a conversation in IRC. I seemed to be the only one there who was certain that I would leave the kiddo's genitals alone and let them decide for themselves when they got older. I'd never consider doing otherwise, based on what I've learned in psychology courses.

Wikipedia article on intersexed individuals, in case you're unfamiliar with the terminology or the medical procedures involved.

Anyway...what would you do if you had a child who was born intersexed?

[Calantyr]

I saw a documentary about this a while back. They interviewed many people, some who had their sex chosen for them. They nearly all turned out depressed and wanting to be the OTHER gender. Maybe they all felt cheated out of the possibility of choosing their direction in life. Or that simply the wrong choice was made.

The few who were allowed to choose their gender later in life were all happy normal individuals... so I think I would go with that option.

[pgrmdave]

I know that it is more complicated than this, but I would elect to have the surgery - if the child has a y chromosome, then I'd make it male, if not, I'd make it female. Yes, there are a small, small percentage for whom that's not true, but it's been true for so many more people than it's not, I think that it is a reasonable course of action.

[Phyllis]

Except for the fact that those who are chosen to be female often have little to no ability to feel any sort of sexual stimulation, Dave. It's sometimes also true for their male counterparts, though less common.

Not like a parent really wants to think about their ickle baby being able to have an orgasm...but it's a part of their adult life they would likely be dissatisfied with if they couldn't.

[Witless]

I voted not sure, quite simple because I know when faced with the decision it would be 1000 times harder to think clearly about what is best, than sitting here discussing it.

I honestly don't know what I'd do if faced with it.

[Spacehappy]

I saw a documentary about this a while back. They interviewed many people, some who had their sex chosen for them. They nearly all turned out depressed and wanting to be the OTHER gender. Maybe they all felt cheated out of the possibility of choosing their direction in life. Or that simply the wrong choice was made.

The few who were allowed to choose their gender later in life were all happy normal individuals... so I think I would go with that option.

I saw this myself, it was kind of scary that all the children that had there gender picked actually wanted to be the other sex.

As a parent it would be very difficult to chose either a intersexed child or male/female. Mainly due to naming and clothing, even now as a society we bracket people. But i'd like to think if it was my child then i would wait and let them chose.

[Izzy]

I'd have them surgicaly altered when they're a baby becuase if they didn't know about it, there's no chance that their peers in school would know about it either, and then that way they won't get picked on. If they did know, they probaly wouldn't tell annyone about it, but you know how nasty rumors spread.

[Phyllis]

And how would you keep them from knowing about it, devil's daughter? Let's say they want to get a sex change, because they're one of the overwhelming number of intersexed individuals who feel they were assigned the wrong sex. They go in to consult with a doctor about it later in life...doctor looks at their medical history. Surprise...you're intersexed and your parents never told you about it.

I'd be pretty angry in that situation. That's a HUGE secret for your parents to keep from you.

Seriously, how many people see your hoo hoo before you're old enough to make such a decision, anyway? For me it was just doctors and the people who changed my diaper. I never got naked in any locker room.

For naming purposes, I'd go with a gender neutral name that could go either way. But I would dress them as one gender, to make it easier to fit in with peers (if they had the Y chromosome, dressed as a boy...not, dressed as a girl). I don't think there would be anything wrong with being open and honest with the kid about the fact that they're different, and why they're different, and that other people (especially kids) might not understand.

(All of this is kind of pointless, since I don't intend to have kids, though...hah)

[elphaba2]

There are plenty of gender-neutral clothes around, too. I know when I was a kid I ran around in overalls and jeans nearly all the time. There's also the option of letting the child pick clothes they respond to, though that might have a lot to do with what sort of friends it would make rather then a true gender identity. Regarding the hoo-hoo--I do remember playing dress-up with other small kids and seeing a hoo or two. But such a situation would be plenty avoidable.

Here's a question--is it possible to raise an entirely androgynous child? There are names that could go both ways (Taylor, for example) and a solution to almost every problem that can come up, with the possible exception of potty time in school.

[gothictheysay]

... have a nervous breakdown? x_x

I'd be tempted to go for the surgery, but now that I think about it, it may not be the best decision. I think I'd probably dither over a decision for a while, but it sounds most fair and ethical to wait until the child is older. How old, though, is my question...

[Spacehappy]

They go in to consult with a doctor about it later in life...doctor looks at their medical history.  Surprise...you're intersexed and your parents never told you about it.

For naming purposes, I'd go with a gender neutral name that could go either way.  But I would dress them as one gender, to make it easier to fit in with peers (if they had the Y chromosome, dressed as a boy...not, dressed as a girl).  I don't think there would be anything wrong with being open and honest with the kid about the fact that they're different, and why they're different, and that other people (especially kids) might not understand.

You raise a few points here.

First is at some point even as a child your going to notice your "diffrent", children today are alot more aware of "self" than i was as a child. Children look at each other's genitals all the time, they are either bathing or playing, but at some time they will look.

Second naming, well in the US (i say US as it's naming policy has been diverse for years (Sunshine, Rainbow ect (not that i hate these name's)). Some names are easily nongender specific, and i might be missing some thing but i tend to find the UK is traditional in names. Now this may be me (and bare with me here, i've not debated on these forums for a long time), but i'd find it hard to, find a "nongender specific" name.

To Devils_Daughter. The thing is that it has been proven that picking of the sex of these children can be wrong, as most want to actually be the other sex. Can you really make a life altering choice for your child at that stage in life?, knowing full well that they might be unhappy for the full span of it?. If the answer to that is yes, then i really hope you would reconsider to consigning a child to that kind of misery.

[Astarael]

I'd be very uncertain and confused if I had an intersexed child, but I'd like to believe that I'd leave their genitals alone and let them choose later in life. It would be difficult to work out the issue of childhood curiosity and potty time, but I hope that loving parents could find a way to deal with it, just as the parents of handicapped children find ways to help and protect them from the problems they will face because they are different.

[Phyllis]

There are plenty of gender-neutral clothes around, too. I know when I was a kid I ran around in overalls and jeans nearly all the time. There's also the option of letting the child pick clothes they respond to, though that might have a lot to do with what sort of friends it would make rather then a true gender identity. Regarding the hoo-hoo--I do remember playing dress-up with other small kids and seeing a hoo or two. But such a situation would be plenty avoidable.

I think I would probably let the kid pick their own clothing when they got old enough to do such things, but it'd be necessary to assign them one gender or the other for stuff like which public restroom to go in, what to check on forms, etc. And not many baby clothes are very androgynous, really. Or they weren't when all my cousins and sisters were babies.

There is dressup and playing doctor and stuff...but I think an intersexed child would probably avoid that if they knew they were different. Hmm.

As far as future dating possibilities go (cause I'm sure someone will raise concerns about that)...a lot of intersexed people end up with partners who are also intersexed. It's more common than one might think.

[Mata]

Having known a few people who have either had sex changes or who are born transgender then I can say that letting the person grow and choose for themself has got to be the most fair approach. People need to be given control of their lives, and genetics are too complicated a thing to be fooled by our clumsy surgery!

[FeralPolyglot]

I voted "not sure" because honestly I don't know what I would do if I had an intersexed child. One thing that affects this decision is "Does the ambiguous apparatus function without difficulty?" If so, then depending on the severity of the ambiguity I would choose Surgery I think. Children do look and compare to a degree. It's just natural to be curious. I wouldn't want my child feeling like they had to hide part of their bodies because people who don't understand will ridicule them. If you're born different, that's fine..... But I think that it is necessary for a child to feel "just like the other boys and girls" for a time in their lives. As far as the gender-reassigned children feeling that they were assigned to the wrong gender... There are males and females that are born with completely inobscure genitals who are transgendered. I don't know if leaving the genitals ambiguous would help that case. I would just always try to keep an open mind to the kid that there are people who feel like they are boys with girls' parts and vice versa when they got to the age where questioning comes into play.

[Izzy]

And how would you keep them from knowing about it, devil's daughter?  Let's say they want to get a sex change, because they're one of the overwhelming number of intersexed individuals who feel they were assigned the wrong sex.  They go in to consult with a doctor about it later in life...doctor looks at their medical history.  Surprise...you're intersexed and your parents never told you about it.

I'd keep them from knowing about it by not telling them about it. Well I'll tell them, just not when their a kid, probaly when their like 20, and when they ask why I never told them, I'll say because I thought they were too young to understand (ever thought I know how every kid hate sit when someone says that!) And if they do decide to have a sex change when their older, I'll gladly pay for it 'cause I obviously made the wrong choice when they were a baby.

(All of this if kind of pointless, since I don't intend to have kids, thought...hah)

Aww, why not? Kids are fun (sometimes) and babys are cute (until they won't stop saying 'why' over and over again)

[Izzy]

If you decide not to do the surgery, there's another thing that would be hard for the kid other than what to put on the form and stuff similar to that. It's what type of underwear you get them. Boys or Girls?

As for which bathroom to go into: Until the child is old enough to go in and out of a public bathroom by themselves the answer is easy. If they're with their mom, go into the Ladies' room with their mom. And same thing if their with their dad.
School restrooms: Until the child reaches Middle School, there are usually bathrooms in each classroom, for boys and girls to use. Or, you can always homeschool them(which I don't think is such a good idea)

If people start asking about which haircut to give them, cut it in the middle like the skaters wear. Not too long or too short.

[Phyllis]

(All of this if kind of pointless, since I don't intend to have kids, thought...hah)

Aww, why not? Kids are fun (sometimes) and babys are cute (until they won't stop saying 'why' over and over again)

I do not understand that reaction, yet so many people have it. It's even worse when people insist that I'll change my mind when my biological clock starts ticking. There is nothing wrong with a life without children, so I don't know why so many people react to my decision with disappointment or words encouraging me to reconsider. My reasons for not wanting kids are pretty personal. There's no reason that complete strangers should say "aww" at me choosing to live my life the way I see fit. My life will be no less complete because I choose to not be a mother.

Ahem. Anyway. I'd rather be open and honest with children rather than hide a HUGE secret about their identity from them for the first 20 years of their life. I have seen nothing that would compel me to elect to have the surgery unless it was somehow necessary for their health (like how some boys actually need circumcision in rare cases).

[bryden42]

I do not understand that reaction, yet so many people have it. It's even worse when people insist that I'll change my mind when my biological clock starts ticking. There is nothing wrong with a life without children, so I don't know why so many people react to my decision with disappointment or words encouraging me to reconsider. My reasons for not wanting kids are pretty personal. There's no reason that complete strangers should say "aww" at me choosing to live my life the way I see fit. My life will be no less complete because I choose to not be a mother.

Bravo candice I think that it's a good decision to make, If you don't want kids then good for you, There's far too much peer pressure to have children from friends, from family and everyone seems to think that it is something that everyone will do. I think that in a lot of cases people should not be allowed to have children if they are not responsible enough to have them (not that I am suggesting this about you candice). I think that I am far too selfish about my time and freedom to ever be able to give a child the attention it needs and deserves, and on these grounds I also do not intend to try for a baby!

As for the transgendered issue, No one seems to be taking into account that a third gender, neither male nor female (or both depending how you want to look at it), is also an option. everyones posts so far are about choosing one or the other, either for the child or leaving the child to choose when it's old enough, why isn't the way it's born good enough? I'm not saying that there are not social hardships to be considered, I'm not saying that there are not possible dislosure and trust issues for the parent child relationship. But it is an option!

I have always trusted my body, it is the one and only true constant in my life and I trust it and know its limits (despite trying to exceed them alcoholically every now and then ), I would hate the thought of having to choose something to alter about it, I was given a body that works and that's fine, I never intend to mess with it further than aestetically (putting a tattoo on it or piercing it). These kids deserve to be able to choose that option as well, but they seem to be pushed towards one or the other.

[pgrmdave]

That brings up the question - what makes us female/male? Is it our genitals, our genetics, our personality, our neurology, our social expectations, our social interactions, our sexuality, our hormones, or something completely different? I tend to feel that it is our genes, but recent studies have shown that the hormones we are exposed to while in our mother's womb have profound effects.

(CBS) There are few issues as hotly contested — and as poorly understood — as the question of what makes a person gay or straight. It's not only a political, social, and religious question but also a scientific question, one that might someday have an actual, provable answer.

The handful of scientists who work in this under-funded and politically charged field will tell you: That answer is a long way off. But as Lesley Stahl reports, their efforts are already yielding tantalizing clues. One focus of their research is twins.

The bedrooms of 9-year-old twins Adam and Jared couldn't be more different. Jared's room is decked out with camouflage, airplanes, and military toys, while Adam's room sports a pastel canopy, stuffed animals, and white horses...

The complete article is here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/...in1385230.shtml

It proposes the idea that sexuality is determined, at least in part, by the mother's hormones, and cites some interesting statistical facts:

For every older brother a man has, his chances of being gay increase by one third. Older sisters make no difference, and there's no corresponding effect for lesbians. A first-born son has about a 2 percent chance of being gay, and the numbers rise from there.

but...

"One of the things we've only found out lately is that older brothers affect a boy only if the boy is right-handed," Breedlove said. "If the boy is left-handed, if his brain is organized in a left-handed fashion, it doesn't matter how many older brothers he has, his probability of being gay is just like the rest of the population."

If trying to understand gender in such a simple case (born with normal genetalia, normal genetics) is difficult, it becomes nearly impossible with an intersexed child. I still stand by the idea that for the vast majority of us, our DNA is a perfect indicator of our gender, but I think that theres a lot more shades of grey than I had previously expected.

[Greeneyes]

I voted for leaving them as is, based on the small amount I've learned about it in psychology. Mainly the case of David Reimer. I realise this isn't quite the same as choosing on behalf of an intersexed baby, but it's reason enough for me.

[Clatterpop]

Before voting on the poll, is what you should really ask yourself is, how would you like someone else to decide your future for you? Don't think for one minute that if you get it wrong then it can be corrected at a later date, it really isn't that simple. By the time they've grown up enough to make an informed decision they will probably have developed secondary sexual characteristics, a lot of which are irreversible. In the case of male to female this can include things like male pattern baldness and a deep voice, this will make it very difficult for them to intergrate in their adopted role.

I suspect that the majority of people who would opt for surgical intervention would really be doing it for their own sakes and not the childs. Yes, bringing up a child as gender neutral would throw up some problems, but children are really quite adaptable, and compared to the difficulties that inappropriate surgery would create, waiting and letting the child develop in their own time really is the most sensible option.

I've met far too many unhappy intersex folk who have been mentally and physically scarred by being given surgery as an infant, and then enforced puberty with hormone injections. I just cannot accept that anyone has the right to make those kind of decisions about another persons life. The possible difficulties during childhood really don't compare to the consequences of incorrect assignment.

[acid_rain_child]

I've not spent a lot of time thinking about intersexed people, or what I'd do if I had an intersexed child. I have a lot of questions that maybe y'all could answer because I'm blocked from any sites having to do with such things.

How does puberty work? If you made your child a girl, would she grow a beard, or if you chose a boy, how does feminine puberty effect them?

Wouldn't any surgery result in deformed genitalia? Would any of it be functional, and would the person be able to have sex or children after surgery?

If you left your intersexed child alone, what negative effects could that have on surgery in the long run? Do both genitals develop normally and at the same time?

How common is intersexuality?

My major dilemma, if I were to choose the sex, would be "Are the years of ridicule and torment from my child's peers worth saving them the pain of wanting to be the other gender?" Either way, it seems their life would be hell.

[Izzy]

I thought of another question. If you keep your child gender nuetral, when they grow up, can they accidently make themselves pregnat?

[Phyllis]

I thought of another question. If you keep your child gender nuetral, when they grow up, can they accidently make themselves pregnat?

.....

No.


ARC, the highest estimates are around 1% of babies. I will get back to your other questions later when I am less headachey and can look up stuff to back up what I think the answers are to make sure I'm not just talking out of my bottom.