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> Bush Or Kerry?, Who would you vote for??
Who would you vote for for 'da president of the US?
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monosodiumglutem...
post Oct 24 2004, 09:08 PM
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which one of these would you vote for? Eh? Eh? blink.gif


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monosodiumglutem...
post Oct 25 2004, 12:46 AM
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come on now, someone has to have an opinion!


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Polocrunch
post Oct 25 2004, 10:32 AM
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I suspect that this thread has already been done. Perhaps you'd better check in the archives?
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Mata
post Oct 27 2004, 02:04 PM
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There was a similar thread, http://www.matazone.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=9137 but that was asking who we expected to win, this one is asking who we would vote for.

As you can see, the other thread's poll is a fairly accurate reflection of the race, this one is going by a landslide to Kerry.

Out of interest, two people have voted for Nader, I'm wondering who these people are and why they have made that choice?


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Polocrunch
post Oct 27 2004, 04:39 PM
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Ah, here's the thread that I recalled. Mind you, it was yonks and yonks ago, so I suppose a new thread on the subject is no great problem.

Seemed like only yesterday we were voting in that old thread. *Wanders down memory lane, tripping on the cobblestones*
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Mata
post Oct 29 2004, 01:08 AM
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I just thought that some people might find this debate hosted in Flodida interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/ques...ime/3954967.stm

Question Time is a very well respected debating programme in the UK, and it might be interesting for people in the US to see the difference in the technique of the chairman of the debate to that seen on American television.

It's a good debate, with some very interesting points made by both sides of the fence, but (this is probably my personal preference) it seems that the Democrats had the strongest support... I just hope that this is representative of the overall nation although it's more likely that it just goes to demonstrate the type of people who attend political debates are predominantly Kerry supporters, which in itself speaks volumes.


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monkey_called_na...
post Oct 29 2004, 01:14 AM
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i vote nader... bush is a moron and kerry is a loud moron.


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oobunnie
post Oct 29 2004, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (Polocrunch @ Oct 25 2004, 10:32 AM)
I suspect that this thread has already been done. Perhaps you'd better check in the archives?
*


I voted Nader. Any why you ask, this is why.
(you have to scroll all the way to the bottom to get to it.
I would want to vote for Nader because he's about as far left as US candidates go.
In reality I would probably vote for Kerry however. In my mind he seems the lesser of the "evils". But in "reality" I'm not American so my choice dont' matter anywho.


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JimiJimi
post Oct 29 2004, 03:59 PM
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I voted for Kerry because Bruce Springsteen did something for him.

And anyone who saw question time last night (28/10/04) probably found it funny. I'm not being offensive, but the Americans seem to applaud after everything. Example:

Person in Crowd: "Under the control of Dubya..."
Crowd: "Woooooooooo!"
Person: "...we went to war with Iraq for no reason."
Crowd: "Woooooooooo!"
Host guy: "Michael Moore."
Michael Moore: "Err... yeah, but some guy I knew lived in Iraq, and err... he rocks!"
Crowd: "Woooooooooo!"

Things must take twice as long in America than in England. I can imagine voting day...

Person: (Puts vote paper into boxey thing) "I voted for Kerry!"
Queue: "Woooooooooo!"
Next person: "I voted for Dubya!"
Part of Queue: "Wooooooooooo!"

And so on.

I'm just not used to that... hence why I found it funny.

And who would care who Osama Bin Laden would vote for?


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kisah
post Oct 29 2004, 05:33 PM
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In 2000 I voted for Nader... I admit it, I fucked up. Not to mention voting in the swing state of Ohio where it was a pretty close race. I voted for him because I wanted him to get the percentage of the votes that he was required in order to get better political funding for this year's campaign. Unfortunately, we missed that mark as well. I didn't find out until later that the Bush campaign was actually financially supporting Nader's campaign because they knew it could only hurt Al Gore. Besides which, Bush or Gore? What kind of options are those? About as good as this year really, but at least I got myself sorted and voted for Kerry. Anything to get this arse out of office.


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monkey_called_na...
post Oct 30 2004, 03:15 AM
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the one thing most americans forget is, it doestn mater who you vote for... electoral college makes the desision.... you can vote kerry all you want it doesnt mean he will win.


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EvilSpork
post Oct 31 2004, 03:29 PM
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Well, to quote and reflect on what Commie said in the other thread about somebody bad always gaining the position of power...

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CommieBastard
post Oct 31 2004, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ Oct 30 2004, 04:15 AM)
the one thing most americans forget is, it doestn mater who you vote for... electoral college makes the desision.... you can vote kerry all you want it doesnt mean he will win.
*


Um, the Electoral College is required by law to vote with the popular vote in their state. There is a very occasional "rogue elector" who does not do this, but there is almost never more than one in any election, not enough to affect the vote. The Electoral College has no real power whatsoever.


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Tigersong
post Oct 31 2004, 05:58 PM
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Which is why the Electoral College system really needs to be abolished. It's yet another shining example of the failure of democracy in our supposedly free and fair western society.


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Xkitsurabamix
post Oct 31 2004, 06:12 PM
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Funny story, at our school (I know, because i'm on Yearbook and Newspaper) our polls reveal that Bush will win among the senior voters, by far.

i often see people in the hallways, especially as of late:
'Who are you voting for?'
'Bush'
'Yeah!'
and then they congradulate eachother...
though everybody in my debate team (cept for one person) is for Kerry, the overwhelming majority of out school is pro-bush.

Sentiment over the election is different, apparently more overseas countries want Kerry than we do here in the states...at least, that's how it looks from where i am.
...though, i think all three of the canidates are out of their skulls.


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Mata
post Nov 1 2004, 02:12 AM
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The general global opinion is that an onion could do a better job as commander-in-chief of the United States than Bush, so it's fair to say that we don't want him back for another term.

If every person who will be affected by the next US President actually got to vote in this election then it would be a landslide for Kerry. Unfortunately, and almost completely inexplicably to the rest of the world, apparently a lot of people in America are absolutely blinded by neoconservatist drivel, and are too afraid to actually ask whether any of their claims are at all substantiated.

Come on, when you hear that a major public building has been struck by a jumbo jet in the country that you are the president of, do you:

1) excuse yourself from whatever you are doing and make sure that you appear on television to reassure your people?

2) listen to the ending of 'My Pet Goat' for the next seven minutes, then disappear without saying anything to the media, leaving it up to your cabinet to try and calm a scared population?

If you answered '2' then you are not fit for the office.

Of course, the human rights abuses, corporate interests, high-level corruption, ineffective foreign policy, lack of economic control, lack of understanding international politics, and general inability to formulate sentences may also be considered an impediment to suitability. If you have also got into government without the approval of your own country's voters, and have managed to hold on to the position through what is regarded as one of the most corrupt and flawed decisions of a supreme court ever made, then that is just another nail in the coffin lid.

So, can anyone please explain a really _good_ reason why this actually _should_ be a close election (rather than why it will be, which is simply answered by the Bush administration terrifying the public, demonising anyone they don't like, and launching smear campaigns against their opponents).

Despite all of this, I am still very nervous that Bush's lawyers may win the election (because let's face it, the actual votes of the people are unlikely to be the swinger in this election).

The best thing that could happen would be for there to a landslide victory for Kerry, the second would be a landslide for Bush. At least that way it would be more probable that the will of the people would actually happen. Both of these are doubtful, so it looks like it will be up to legal teams to decide the fate of America and the rest of the world.

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A good start...


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vicrawr
post Nov 1 2004, 05:44 AM
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I voted for Nader. I don't want to vote for Bush, though I'm surrounded by Republicans, and I didn't want to vote for Kerry. I don't want to not vote. So, when I get to the polling place, I'm going to have a very fun time.
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Xkitsurabamix
post Nov 1 2004, 05:48 AM
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[quote=Mata,Nov 1 2004, 02:12 AM]
Come on, when you hear that a major public building has been struck by a jumbo jet in the country that you are the president of, do you:

1) excuse yourself from whatever you are doing and make sure that you appear on television to reassure your people?

2) listen to the ending of 'My Pet Goat' for the next seven minutes, then disappear without saying anything to the media, leaving it up to your cabinet to try and calm a scared population?

If you answered '2' then you are not fit for the office.



I hear people saying that argument all the time, and honestly, it is really one of the things that irritates me the most.

The president couldn't do ANYTHING without intelligence doing some research on the matter. seven minuets of reading a book to little children wasn't a -horribly, dastardly action- it was sensible that he finish up there, and let intelligence do it's job, track down just what happened, so the President actually could have something to say at the press conference. It takes a bit to find these things out, you know.

Yes. a secret service man whispers something into his ear, and the president leaves immediatly, as per your instructions.
and terrifies the whole entire school by bolting out of the door.
do you know how scary that must be for little children, to just have the president bolt after hearing a confidential message?
Yes. let's traumatize the children.
because that's what we really need in my country.
More kids on stress medication.

(I try to stand up for the underdog in situations like this, and as an 'Independant'- (aka - i think they all are wacked) i see that the bush-bashers are getting awfully despirate in their attempts to insult him.


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monkey_called_na...
post Nov 1 2004, 08:00 AM
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ok... how about the fact that he was reading a book that was upside down?


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kisah
post Nov 1 2004, 09:15 AM
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QUOTE (Tigersong @ Oct 31 2004, 09:58 AM)
Which is why the Electoral College system really needs to be abolished.  It's yet another shining example of the failure of democracy in our supposedly free and fair western society.
*



As much as I agree with you on this one there is a good devils advocate side to the argument regarding popular vote and density of population. If we had just the popular vote then unpopulated states like Wyoming or Nebraska (where there are farming industries and other types of work that require a lot of unpopulated land) that have an interest in government subsidies and other stuff they'd like to vote about wouldn't have much say about anything in the scope of the metropolitan areas that have very different needs and interests. With the electoral college it allows people in vast sparsely populated places have an impact on the vote. Some might consider it unfair that some farmer in Wyoming has a greater impact on the vote than one stock broker in NYC but let's face it, there are loads of stock brokers in NYC, and they have similar interests and will vote in similar ways.

kat


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Mata
post Nov 1 2004, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (Xkitsurabamix @ Nov 1 2004, 05:48 AM)
Yes. a secret service man whispers something into his ear, and the president leaves immediatly, as per your instructions.
and terrifies the whole entire school by bolting out of the door.
do you know how scary that must be for little children, to just have the president bolt after hearing a confidential message?
Yes. let's traumatize the children.
because that's what we really need in my country.
More kids on stress medication.

I can understand where you are coming from but I really don't agree with you on this one. He's the President of the United States of America, every child in the country understands that he is a very important man and that sometimes he will have more important things to do than listen to a children's story.

It's not that he sat there without knowledge or what was going on. The first plane hit the building at 8:48a.m. Bush went into that classroom at 9:03 a.m. Fine, he thought it was an aviation accident.

The whisper in his ear was that a second plane had struck, not the first plane. If it were the first plane then it would be a tragedy, but not impossible to believe that it was an accident and not requiring immiediate attention. It was the second plane. Important decisions may have been needed urgently. Are there other planes about to strike other buildings? It is known that terrorists knew where he was that day, and by remaining there he was putting the children, himself, and his whole country at risk.

Did the air force have clearance to shoot down non-responsive aircraft? That is an order that can only be given by the president, but he was just sitting there. Potentially there were planes on the way to strike buildings all across the country, including the one he was sitting in, and an airforce waiting for his order to save thousands of lives, including his own and those of the children he was with, but he was still sitting there. There are things that would need to be decided on immediately.

By this point it has got to be pretty clear to even the slowest individual that America is under attack. Where the attack was coming from was not clear, but when it is clear that something as major as that has happened, the priority has to be with the country, not with being impolite to a group of small children.

He eventually left the school at 9:35a.m. Maybe the Pentagon, hit at 9:37a.m., would have been saved if he had acted sooner. We can't know.

Would you be scared if you were in a meeting with your boss and they got called away to something more important? What if the president was meeting you but was called away to something more important? Sure, you'd be disappointed, but you'd understand, he's the president. Would this mean that you have to go into therapy? Would you be suing the American government for trauma? Are American children so insecure that they can't understand that the president of the most powerful country in the world might have more important things to do than listen to a story with them? I certainly hope that they are not, because it would be a very sad reflection of America if they are.

My point is this; As far as George W Bush knew, his country was under immediate attack, and the claim that it was better to not worry some children than to politely excuse himself and carry out the duties for which he was elected just strikes me as silly. He didn't have to tell the children anything, but a few polite words 'I've had a lovely time here today, thanks for your hostitality, but please excuse me' would have been fine. I'm really sorry, but it is those kind of moments that prove the mettle of a leader and he just did not stand up to the task.

QUOTE
(I try to stand up for the underdog in situations like this, and as an 'Independant'- (aka - i think they all are wacked) i see that the bush-bashers are getting awfully despirate in their attempts to insult him.
*

I don't see this as a case of desperation, I see this as a case of observing what he did, what his responsibilities were, and seeing that he made the wrong choice. There is no need to 'insult' his actions, he performed them, and he has created the evidence of a lack of suitability to times of stress all by himself. If I were making this up then it would be an insult. What I am doing here is observing the evidence and making what I feel to be the logical conclusions.

If his actions overall proved that this was a single error in judgement then it wouldn't be worth thinking about, errors are made, we're only human, but his understanding of world events has been consistently lax throughout his presidency. Even before Sept 11th 2001 I believed that he was a man with no understanding of the world, since then I have become convinced of it by his actions time and again.

QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ Nov 1 2004, 08:00 AM)
ok... how about the fact that he was reading a book that was upside down?
*

That's not a fact, that's a photo that was manipulated for a joke... In fact I've seen many people do it to photos. He might not be smart, but he does know which way up a book goes.


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Xkitsurabamix
post Nov 1 2004, 02:47 PM
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(I hope you don't mind, Mata, but i thought it'd be relavent to this discussion if i posted the subject matter I brought up in the message i sent you- - -I like this 'Devil's advocate' thing. It's quite fun to argue for both sides of something- I've been forced to take the Bush side of a debate, and the Kerry side, as well in Debate team, so i've done a little bit of reading)

...here are some of the things that i figure would possibly give a more balanced look at things:

As for the argument about pulling the troops out in a timely fashon:
The whole entire problem with Vietnam is that we pulled the troops out, and didn't see all of it through. if we had kept attacking the guerilla forces, we might have not had such a 'defeat' in the eyes of the world, and we'd have military bases sufficient enough in Korea to prevent future incidents like that of what's about to happen with Kim Jong Iil (sp?) In fact, we have bases in Japan, in Germany, and anywhere else we can get a foothold in, just to prevent future flare-ups. if we pull out all of our forces, then we'll allow the threat to multiply, and they'll end up striking out in our land again. As long as the fighting is over there, the terrorists (though i'm getting awfully tired of that word) won't be over here, blowing our biggest cities up. i know it's a tradgedy that there are mistakes, and civilians are getting killed, but if we are over there, cleaning up the problems, then it will eventually stop. if we let the hate multiply by packing up and leaving, and letting them simmer, it's only a matter of time before another tradgedy like that of the trade towers happens again. We weren't addressing the problems for a long while, and all of a sudden, the problem, most literally, 'blew up in our faces'. I know the whole deal about Osama bin laden nothaving shit to do with Saddam Hussein, but honestly, the whole entire region had factions that were set to exploit the weaknesses in the US's security. if there wasn't terrorist forces in Iraq, then why are we being attacked and killed daily while we are over there? if there wasn't terrorist factions set to strike out against the US, then why are there ambushes where the different religious sects are slaughtering our troops? The whole entire region is already embroiled with a war on eachother, and now, they are striking out on other countries- and the factions site religious beliefs as their reasons. Well, we site protecting our citizens as our reasons, as as long as everyone is over there fighting, then they can't send planes over to kill thousands of people again.
I know what you're going to say-
'but now, people are being killed over THERE!'
It is most certainly not anybody's intention on the US troops' side to slaughter workers, families, or to tear apart their daily lives. it was with malicious intent that the terrorists slaughtered the US citizens, and it is merely with the intent to stop these wicked people from doing further harm to the world's security that the US has begun this combat.

As for the argument that we had plans to invade Iraq before sept. 11th even happened:
We have plans to invade Canada, if need be. we have military strategists planning for the worst-case scenario constantly. that's what they get paid to do, so that just in case, if we ever really need to, we are prepared to defend ourselves.


although, i do think certain things about Bush's policies, like the 'Patriot act'- which pretty much destroyes freedom of speech and freedom of expression, is wacked to all hell...as well as his views on abortion and the religious reasons why he wishes to outlaw women's rights (i'm a firm believer in 'separation of church and state', a very important part of the US constitution), but i still think that Kerry needs to improve the stances he takes on the troops, on this war, and that he is very far from 'the right choice'
(Hell, neither is Nader, honestly...though he seems more competent at these mattersw, he's also proposed plans to eliminate gambling in Las Vegas...which will never happen. I'm sorry, but i really don't think that's feasable, and anybody who assumes that they can totally outlaw a multi-million dollar industry for recreation, is fighting a battle he just can't win. Although, i understand that it preys on the poor and down-on-their luck, it is their faults, just like all psychological addictions- gambling isn't a 'forced' action, they can consciously decide to put the money in the machine. They can get the same 'thrill' out of whacking their heads on a large wodden object, i'm sure)

So, there ya' go. a humble debater's perspective on being fair to the other side's opinions. you can go ahead and message me about how silly i am, too. I just hope you took some things into concideration.
-Kelsie J.


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monkey_called_na...
post Nov 1 2004, 03:34 PM
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mata.... i was joking as well tongue.gif lets not forget

but about this whole "war on terrorism" let me lay somthing down now realise its smaller scale... but still the exact same idea... or hey im a raving moron.

you own a few guns... enough because you belive its your right as an american citizen to be able to protect yourself with them... one day... 4 of the police officers in your town come into your home with out knocking or giving any reason other then... you could possibly be a threat... because you own some guns. so they take all of your guns and instead one of them moves right into your house with you for your protect from the people around you and kills your son, he didnt mean to he heard a noise and reacted the only way he knew how... by killing him. he was only cleaning up the problems... the ones he thought he found... it wasnt his fault he was wrong... he was protecting you....

how would you feel right about now? because as far as i can tell... welcome to iraq.

edit: darn spelling...


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monosodiumglutem...
post Nov 1 2004, 05:20 PM
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The general global opinion is that an onion could do a better job as commander-in-chief of the United States than Bush, so it's fair to say that we don't want him back for another term

That's my general opinion of Bush also, and I have no idea how around half of our country disagrees! My friend and I went trick-or-treatng with some kids that live at her house, and I was astounded at the number of Bush/Cheney signs out on people's yards. It was absolutely sickening. After seeing all of the things he has caused to happen in his current term, I do not know how people can want to have him as our president yet another time. Does anyone know at all what would compel these people to vote for Bush?


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Tigersong
post Nov 1 2004, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (monosodiumglutemate @ Nov 1 2004, 11:20 AM)
Does anyone know at all what would compel these people to vote for Bush?
*

Fear plays a major role. They think Kerry will be a wimp and therefore terrorists will attack the States. Unfortunately, this just isn't true; I'd say that more people than ever are pissed off at Bush, so the chance of having a second (almost inevitable, really, at this point) terrorist attack on America skyrockets with Bush in power.

Another major factor is the mobilization of the Christian Right. They tend to hold neoconservative values similar to Bush. I'm just praying that this can be countered by a mobilization of the angry people of the United States, who have every right to vote against Bush with the hypocrisy that he has generated in his administration.

As well, there's a large portion of the population who would probably vote Democrat, except that they see them being wishy-washy on issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. Personally, I view this as a strength, but for traditional middle-class white America, these topics are scary, and the Republican party has made its opinion on these topics well known.

Another factor is the Republicans who have always voted Republican will always vote Republican. Same goes for the Democrats. Right now, I'd guess that that base is stronger for the Republican party.

And finally, I think there's a lot of pure ignorance. People honestly believe that Bush had international backing in his war on Iraq. They honestly believe that the people in Iraq now are better off than they were pre-war. They honestly believe, beyond overwhelming contradicting evidence, that the Bush economy is stronger now than before.

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As much as I agree with you on this one there is a good devils advocate side to the argument regarding popular vote and density of population. If we had just the popular vote then unpopulated states like Wyoming or Nebraska (where there are farming industries and other types of work that require a lot of unpopulated land) that have an interest in government subsidies and other stuff they'd like to vote about wouldn't have much say about anything in the scope of the metropolitan areas that have very different needs and interests. With the electoral college it allows people in vast sparsely populated places have an impact on the vote. Some might consider it unfair that some farmer in Wyoming has a greater impact on the vote than one stock broker in NYC but let's face it, there are loads of stock brokers in NYC, and they have similar interests and will vote in similar ways.


I know these arguments and I disagree with them. In a free and fair election, a vote is a vote is a vote. If regional problems arise, they should be resolved by regional governments. The American Presidency is supposed to represent all of America's population, and in so, the vote must become equal. If there are two stock brokers in New York and one farmer in Wyoming, then the stock brokers should have twice as much power, regardless of whether or not they have similar interests.


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