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> A Dark Day, I think Bush has won..
monosodiumglutem...
post Nov 3 2004, 01:39 PM
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it seems to me that Bush has won the election.. it is a very dark day indeed.. Though my state went all out for Kerry, apparently not enough others did.. sad.gif


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Xeno
post Nov 3 2004, 01:42 PM
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It'll be okay. It's only four more years.
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gothy type in a ...
post Nov 3 2004, 01:58 PM
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god.damn.it.that.man.is.dangerous. *bangs head on computer table*
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Ashbless
post Nov 3 2004, 08:18 PM
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I read in the news that Bush has indeed won. Sorry.


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post Nov 3 2004, 09:27 PM
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We're all doomed... and I don't even live in America...

*takes several deep breaths*

Okay, it might only be four more years, but four years is a long time really, especially in the world of politics.

As my mother said, though, thank goodness that there is a limit of two terms on the time in presidential office. Though two terms is even longer than four years...

*bangs head on table repeatedly*


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post Nov 3 2004, 10:00 PM
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QUOTE (Xeno @ Nov 3 2004, 06:42 AM)
It'll be okay.  It's only four more years.
*

Only four years? Have you not seen what has happened during the last four years we had Bush in office? dry.gif My state, too went all out for Kerry. Woo hoo. Too bad he didn't win. sad.gif Bushes are for peeing on. >>;


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Xeno
post Nov 4 2004, 12:45 AM
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Yeah, I've seen what happened. Two long term U.S. enemies have been reduced to powerless nations. The U.S. has alienated most of Europe (Britain a limited exception). Medicare has sunk into a greater disastar. The economy is stabilizing and looks to be on the rise.

Bush is pretty much an idiot but that's our main protection from him.

I never liked Kerry, he just always had an aura of danger about him. I live in Texas and voted Libertarian.
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Snugglebum the D...
post Nov 4 2004, 12:49 AM
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I understand that you didn't want Bush.

However, lots of people obviously did. You really can't chalk this all down to conspiracy, can you?

Whether you like it or not - this is democracy, isn't it?


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Nov 4 2004, 01:08 AM
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QUOTE (Xeno @ Nov 4 2004, 12:45 AM)
Two long term U.S. enemies have been reduced to powerless nations.
*


...who?


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Xeno
post Nov 4 2004, 02:20 AM
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Iraq and Afghanistan both hosted multiple terrorist training camps which don't work anymore. Not sure if it was worth it but at least a percentage of their resources are gone.
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Polocrunch
post Nov 4 2004, 08:06 AM
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I hate to have to correct you there, Xeno, but that's largely incorrect. Afghanistan held a few terrorist training camps, that is true, and they have all been more or less destroyed. However, the failure of the US to completely stamp out the Taliban and reduce the power of the warlords has meant that both have been able to re-establish or maintain their power. So the end result there was pretty negligible.

In Iraq? There were no terrorist training camps before (with the exception of anti-Kurdish camps in Northern Iraq; these fought entirely against the Kurds and had no real affiliation with Osama Bin Laden's group). Right now, though, there are lots of terrorist camps in Iraq. Heck, an entire town (Fallujah) is under the control of insurgent-cum-terrorists, and people die in terrorist attacks daily.

Not much has changed, and one could even say that the terrorist situation has worsened.
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Xeno
post Nov 4 2004, 08:42 AM
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Actually there is a change. Terrorism is switching gears. With the new threats virtually all al-qaeda attacks recently have been in the Middle East. While many have been against the West's military, many have also been against their own people. Saudi Arabia has shut down several camps without pressure due to recent attacks. Terrorism is all about image and the image is failing over there. When they cease to be friends of the people there, they lose a lot of recruiting and financial power. A few other camps have also been dealt with by other nations fearing U.S. reprisals.

I'm not a huge fan of fear as a political tool but maintenance of the status quo wasn't the best choice. I still question the U.S. move into Iraq. I believed and still do in the existence of 'weapons of mass destruction' that were in Iraq. A few political and military websites I've found had evidence that a Russian team hid the weapons in Syria or on the border. This wouldn't surprise me at all. The parts for most of those weapons could probably be traced easily to Russia and Eastern Europe and that would be a political scandal (despite the fact that the West armed them before).

I don't think democracy will work in Iraq. A revolution for democracy must come from the people, not an outside force. They might pull it off but I doubt it. There was no strong yearning for freedom. Though I'd like to think that if it works, it will send sparks of democracy out to Iran, Syria, and Jordan....but again, I doubt it.
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Polocrunch
post Nov 4 2004, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE
Terrorism is switching gears. With the new threats virtually all al-qaeda attacks recently have been in the Middle East.


In case you hadn't noticed, most terrorist attacks had always been in the Middle East. In fact, September 11th and Madrid were the only major terrorist attacks outside the Middle East for a decade. Because of the ease of access, targets in the Orient have always been favoured more than those elsewhere. The increase in attacks in the Middle East is not evidence that terrorists have changed their approach, it is a demonstration that they have increased their capability.

QUOTE
While many have been against the West's military, many have also been against their own people.


I'd say that most of these attacks have been directed against US-supported governments and Western targets, not the people themselves. And where innocent people have been killed by terrorists, locals have blamed the US as much as they have blamed the terrorists.

QUOTE
Terrorism is all about image and the image is failing over there.


Is it? The impression I got is that totalitarian Islamism is pretty popular. Conservatives have been elected in Iran, a large uprising has occurred in Iraq, the political situation is still a deadlock in Israel and Palestine, and Al-Jazeera continues to broadcast videotapes of Osama Bin Laden. I'd like to see the opinion polls that prove that radical Islam is on the down.

QUOTE
I believed and still do in the existence of 'weapons of mass destruction' that were in Iraq.


That belief seems entirely illogical to me. The non-partisan September 11th Commission did a very thorough investigation into the existence of WMD, and it concluded that there was nothing except the will to build them. If you want to believe conspiracy theories on the Internet, be my guest, but I think you're very much mistaken to do so.

QUOTE
There was no strong yearning for freedom.


Again, I have to question this kind of unsupported statement. I think that plenty of Iraqi and Muslim people would like greater freedoms. TV interviews with the BBC and other major news programmers indicate that the Iraqi middle class was initially very glad to see Hussein go. Most interviewees are very glad to have a chance at democracy, but accuse the United States of ruining their chances by managing the peace so badly. And in Iran, there is a very significant youth movement to liberalise the country. So I would conclude that there was as strong a yearning for freedom in Iraq and the Middle East as anywhere else.
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Xeno
post Nov 4 2004, 01:15 PM
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Can't agree. Note I didn't say attacks in the Middle East were steady, they are increasing (this includes not counting western targets). While some attempts were made on Western targets they've ended up killing many more Islamic women and children then ever before. They have an image problem.

Islam is not on the down but you have to remember that there's intense factional rifts throughout the area. Osama hated Iraq's government (still got training camps). Radical Islam hates radical Islam. I'm all for them to turn their hate on each other.

The commission found mobile bio-weapons labs. Our satellites are not as foolproof as some people seem to believe. When I find the data on hiding the WMD again, I'll post it here. It's not from a conspiracy nut, it's taken from news publications.

There may have been a middle-class yearning for freedom....but it was too weak to do anything. There was no large-scale grassroots movement going on. Minor rebellions had been crushed and there were minorities on the fringes but the people wanted them dead almost as much as the government did. The reason democracy took root in Europe is first the nobility wanted more power then the people demanded more power and got it. The United States (and the rest of the Americas except Canada) fought wars to gain freedom. If they wanted it badly enough, they would have it. They DON'T have idealistic and charismatic revolutionary heroes to put in power. They DON'T have a strong vested interest in building a strong democratic government back up to defend themselves (U.S. will protect them for years). They WON'T have a great patriotic story about how their government was formed building self-respect and dignity (more important than most people realize).
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spuglet
post Nov 4 2004, 02:33 PM
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For now, can we ignore the terrorism and that [snip! No swearing - Mata], just put it aside.

This man wants to infringe on the rights of every woman in your country (abortion), and every homosexual. He brings his personal religious viewpoint into politics, something condemmed by your own constitution.

Aside from that, why the bleeding hell won't anyone in power in America sign the kyoto agreement? Do you want to kill the world?


And 51% of your voters voted for him.


Well, frikking, done.


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post Nov 4 2004, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (Xeno @ Nov 4 2004, 02:42 AM)
I believed and still do in the existence of  'weapons of mass destruction' that were in Iraq.  A few political and military websites I've found had evidence that a Russian team hid the weapons in Syria or on the border.
*

*head to desk*

It has been clearly established there were no weapons of mass destruction. None. Nada. Zilch. The Russians did not move them because there were no weapons to move.

It's like saying you believe in the Loch Ness Monster, but the reason we've never seen it is because a team of busty lesbian ninja spies has hidden it in Loch Lomond.


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post Nov 4 2004, 05:51 PM
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You want to know how the bastard won. Let me tell you, about six months ago Bush forced through Congress a amendment to change the constitution of the US to define marriage as a act between a man and a woman. Now this act was completely arbitrary. The states have the right to determine their policies. There was no need for an amendment. What it was designed to do was force Democrats to vote against it. Now no matter the reason why they voted against it, the move was designed to convince the US people that Democrats where too liberal. They didn’t have to moral fabric to run the US. He prayed on people’s homophobia and faith based values.
He forced the issue of abortion this year as well, again making democrats take a decisive stand for abortion. Same with stem cell research and so on.
He effectively pushed Americans apart. He mobilized two groups of people. The conservative faith based nuts and supporters of the war. It was enough to turn at least 40% of the nation to the dark side. Combined with the people who just didn’t like Kerry, you have your 51%.
He divided the country with hate and fear. The Democrats helped him along the way with poor leadership and insight on their behalf.
While Bush being elected is troublesome. It is not as troublesome as the complete loss of Democratic influence anywhere in government. This election saw some of the most conservative and homophobic politicians ever elected. For the next two years the concept of 2 party federal government is gone. Very few republicans will ever cross party lines and vote against a republican initiative.


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Mata
post Nov 4 2004, 06:05 PM
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It's generally accepted even by Prime Minster Blair, Dick Cheney and President Bush himself that there were no WMDs in the country.

The 'mobile biological weapons labs' actually contained no evidence whatsoever, they were just really clean and could _possibly_ have been used for creation of biological weapons. Obviously, such evidence was looked at by the governments of the UK and US when creating their reports and they have all agreed that no WMDs existed in the country.

Hans Blix, the UN weapons inspector openly derided the 'evidence' of the satellite photos that was presented by the US as the case for Iraq having WMDs. To paraphrase one of his comments 'Here you are suggesting that this lorry having moved between photographs is evidence that the Iraqis are shipping weapons around the country. There are two weeks between the photos. It could easily be that it just drove off.' Needless to say, the Bush administration was not happy with this!

America has absolutely failed to find any terrorist cells in its own country, and Britain hasn't done mcuh better (although we did find some terrorists from Ireland, but then again, a lot of their funding comes from the US anyway...). All 'cells' that have been supposedly discovered and announced by President Bush have later been rejected by the courts due to an absolute lack of evidence against the individuals.

In the meantime, there is a recently published report in the US that states that there are now _more_ members of terrorist groups since the 'war on terror' began than there were before. The current US policy is making enemies of many Islamic believers, and this can only lead to further trouble.

Bush needs to concentrate on getting a peaceful and sustainable Palestinian state. If he can manage to show that he has helped cease conflict in that one place in the world then it will bring hope of peace to a great deal of the world. Of course, his backers do not wish to see a resolution of the conflict that does not involve the absolute superiority of Christendom over all others...

It is a very big mess, and Bush has so far shown himself only to be capable of getting more tangled rather than extricating himself or anyone else.


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Xeno
post Nov 4 2004, 06:05 PM
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Here's a link. The Washington Times is a more moderate paper, they don't have a lot of love for Bush.

Here's the story on the Russians moving the weapons which was reported by Bush's staff and used by Kerry in the campaign (rightly accusing that Bush can't keep track of this stuff well enough). The equipment could have been used for conventional high explosives but it could also be used for nuclear weapons. We have a good guess as to what was there.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm

Here's a report of Al-Qaeda shipping nerve gases from Syria to Jordan. They admit Syria might have made these weapons but why would Syria send their weapons to Jordan? This site is Libertarian which strikes a balance on most views (could be accused of bias):

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=13282

Both of these sites (I use both quite a bit) aren't strongly partisan.

I have more but I don't have time to track them down. I'm flying to California for a few days for a wedding. Have fun in my abscence
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post Nov 4 2004, 06:10 PM
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I'm going to have to agree with Ravein on this one. In fact, I couldn't have said it better myself. and to be honest it no longer matters whether we should be in iraq or not. Or for what reasions. All that matters now is trying to fix what we started.

Oh, as a side note. If you voted for anyone but bush or kerry, and that person didn't get 10% of your state's vote, those votes went to bush.


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Mata
post Nov 4 2004, 06:14 PM
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Hi Xeno,

Thanks for the links. It's nice to have a calm discussion about this kind of thing. It so often gets carried away.

While I do believe that the Washington Post is a good source, I don't believe that John Shaw necessarily is.

QUOTE
Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. Shaw said.
    "That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got there."


The first point he makes here is a little silly, because the explosives could easily have been taken when the troops in the area were moved on to other cities, leaving the stockpile undefended.

The second point is the most clearly false though, because there is video footage of the troops being there with the explosives in the background. Here's a link to the NY Times about the story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/politics...print&position=

QUOTE
A videotape made by a television crew with American troops when they opened bunkers at a sprawling Iraqi munitions complex south of Baghdad shows a huge supply of explosives still there nine days after the fall of Saddam Hussein


Essentially what this means is that the explosives were absolutely definitely there when the troops arrived, so Mr Shaw is lying. The most likely option is that is was stolen by insurgents, who probably couldn't believe their luck, and it's now being used against American and British forces.

EDIT: As for the other article, the comment "The large stockpiles were known to be in Iraq" does seem rather odd considering that there has been absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is true. There has been no evidence found of any active or successful WMD programs in Iraq's recent history. I don't know... It's hard to say what's right and wrong when everyone says something opposite to eachother, but the Loftus interview sounds far more like fear-mongering than well-researched debate... But that is just my personal opinion.

Anyway, have a good trip, I look forward to your response when you get back!


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monosodiumglutem...
post Nov 5 2004, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Snugglebum the Destroyer @ Nov 3 2004, 07:49 PM)
I understand that you didn't want Bush.

However, lots of people obviously did. You really can't chalk this all down to conspiracy, can you?

Whether you like it or not - this is democracy, isn't it?
*

no, I believe once again we have a president that we didn't vote for.. I DID think it was a bit suspicious when the maker of the poll machines told Bush 'I'll do anything to get you re-elected' or something of the kind. and really, the percentages that came out are rather inconspicuous, so noone would know anyway.. The more I talk, the more I believe I am schitzophrenic.
QUOTE
Bush is pretty much an idiot but that's our main protection from him.

Yes, it was fun at first. It was actually quite a novelty in the beginning to have the overlord of our country as dumb as a post, but when wars start and peoples lines are on the line, it gets serious. I dont suppose you've read this article yet, it may not be in your state. Here is an article telling more about Bin Laden's new tape, focusing on a part when he says that the war iin Iraq will most likely drain the US of money, and that is one of the things he is aiming for. Bush is playing us right into his hands!
QUOTE
This man wants to infringe on the rights of every woman in your country (abortion), and every homosexual. He brings his personal religious viewpoint into politics, something condemmed by your own constitution.

These are some of the points that anger me the most! What kind of president wants to ban abortion-which could save lives of mothers if it was allowed- yet can start such a war as this?? And don't get me started on the gay marriage deal. Bush says he wants to keep marriage as the sacred bond between a MAN and WOMAN only... As soon as Vegas opened up its first drive-thru chapel and the first straight couple were wed by an Elvis impersonator.... sacred does not really belong in that sentence.


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squirrelntherain
post Nov 5 2004, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE (spuglet @ Nov 4 2004, 09:33 AM)
This man wants to infringe on the rights of every woman in your country (abortion), and every homosexual. He brings his personal religious viewpoint into politics, something condemmed by your own constitution.

And 51% of your voters voted for him.

*



See, that's the sad part, those are the exact reasons WHY 51% of the voters voted for him. The people here seem to think that it's more important to intill what is morally correct to them onto an entire country rather than get rid of a man that's obviously doing no good.
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