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Witless
post Dec 14 2004, 12:13 PM
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Ok now like.. dating close friends, it seems to be a lot of people's fantasy, to date a close friend, after all your close friends already, what could be greater than to date someone you already know you get along with, and are already close to.
Other people ban themselves from dating friends believing that, a relationship will kill their friendship or that if it doesn't work you may lose them as a friend and a partner. See now I sit on the fence on this one, since I can see where both sides are coming from. But recent annoying experiences are starting to bias my opinion.

Me and a new group of friends I've made (that have become amazingly close in a short space of time) work together on a lot of projects we're all really excited about, it's pretty essential that we get along really well. Now, problem is a guy in this group (not me before anyone suggests anything) recently asked one of the girls in our little group out on a date, she got rather weirded out and turned him down. Now there's all this bad air floating around, and cracks and divisions forming that me and the others are doing our best to seal up before this ruins everything.

I used to take a neutral stance on this, since I can imagine getting a relationship to work out with a close friend would be pretty awesome. But.. let's think about this, most people will only ever have 1-2 big huge multi yeared huge long relationships in their life. Every other one is a doomed failure, and risking friendships every time you date someone is kinda dangerous. I come from a school of believe where I do love my friends, and I don't read into this "but a relationship is so much better than friends" stuff. A relationship is different to a friendship for me, not better. More and more I'm thinking, turning a friendship into a relationship, is like a make or break gamble that fails.

Ok.. now to the point of this post, I'm not liking my new biased outlook on this situation, it's turning me into a pessimistic little brat. I would appreciate people pulling me back from this brink of pessimism back to my previously neutral outlook on things.


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the lil' pie...
post Dec 14 2004, 03:45 PM
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Well, I was always really close to my best friend, Nick (some people might vaguely remember this story)
It didn't help that we had a physical relationship, but we were always just friends, as we agreed it'd never work, and we didn't want to lose what we had.
When we went to the Leeds festival this summer, we spent five amazing days together all the time, and it changed something. Shortly afterwards, we had a big heart-to-heart and confessed mutually that we thought we could be in love with each other. After a week or so of debating it, we went for the plunge and began official couple-ness, and for the last three months we've been wonderfully happy. It's the nicest feeling to know that my boyfriend really is my best friend, and knowing each other so well meant it isn't likely to go wrong.

I think this kind of situation can indeed go either way. For me, it's worked out brilliantly, and I'm glad I took that initial risk. But if they aren't so close/such long-term good friends, I can think of lots of ways it'd go wrong. Without thinking before people jump into things like this, they tend to forget the added demands people have of their loved ones especially. It's not just like being friends but with added hugs and kisses.
If only life were that simple. But in reality, it's not.

Reading your post, I think your friend made the right decision by turning him down. It obviously wasn't a mutual thing, and I think that's the key to it working. Not one person's idea, but both persons. It's a shame that rifts have been made though. I hope you and your other friends find a way to fix them.

Hmm. I'm rambling. Basically, I think it's good if it's mutual and taken slowly, but I think one-sided affection is a horrible situation for friends, and sudden moments of closeness don't justify risking friendships for.
If that makes any sense at all... rolleyes.gif


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Forever Unknown
post Dec 14 2004, 04:37 PM
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I'd like to think that you can go out with a friend, it can go to hell, and then after years you can pull it back again.

I've known my ex Pete since I was 14. We just loved to hate each other at first - always arguing back and forth. After a while we grew to be good friends, and 4 years ago we first got together. Suffice to say he was my 'First Love', but his mother, being an absolutely staunch Catholic, hated me, to the extent they had a ten hour argument about it where she called me Satan and said she'd rather kill herself that see us together. Which is nice.

Long story short, we spent half the relationship in secret (difficult, as we were 80 miles away from one another), and it ended quite messily. We argued continuously and then went our separate ways.

A year later, we started talking again. Within a couple of months, we were back together. Except by this time a lot of things had changed and it seem to work, I found myself attracted to other people (which didn't sit right with me at all), there were issues about his ex, we were still a secret, so that ended even more messy than before. We argued, stopped talking for another year.

Two years ago, we got back together again, because obviously we'd not messed each other up enough the first two times. At that time I was so co-dependant that it seemed like the best thing in the world, until it came to light he was lying through his teeth to me, etc - lots of bad stuff. Huge break-up, incredibly unpleasant, I refused to have anything else to do with him, and we spent the following six months making below-the-belt attacks on one another.

About 9 months ago he emailed me to see how I was. I was cautious but responded, as his was a big 'apology email' and seemed genuine. Gradually we've built up our friendship again without any relationship stuff getting in the way, because we've both grown up a lot and quite frankly realised that we just don't work together, but seem to be fine as friends - no drama, no crap, just a good laugh. The last time we were together, he kind of cheated on me (the details are a bit blurry), but he's still with the lass now and I don't begrudge him that at all. I'd actually probably put him as one of my closest friends nowadays. So, yeah, sometimes it can work out Ok.

That was an extraordinarily long post. Sorry.


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Usurper MrTeapot
post Dec 14 2004, 04:49 PM
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From personal experience I think it depends on the situation which both parties are in at that time. It seems to me that she did the right thing, especially as young love can put work on hold which I assume thats what the group was together for, the project you mentioned.

In a case of my friend, both sides were central to the group of friends and they started going out and all was fine. Untill they broke up which may have caused the group to split between them or exclude one person, luckilly (although both regret their relationship) they put that aside and all was fine.


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Witless
post Dec 14 2004, 04:51 PM
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Well the story seems to be what I thought, it "can" work, but pretty damn careful, cos the outcome maybe pretty damn awful with years of woe and hate.. even when both parties feel for eachother... is what I'm feeling still.. hum...


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Righteous
post Dec 14 2004, 04:58 PM
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Well, 5/8 of my girlfriends were friends with me first. Of them, three are still my friends and one is presently my girlfriend. The chicks that weren't my friends beforehand and said ex that was my friend, I am, at best, cordial with. When it comes to dating friends, it's really your call. There could be hurt feelings and loss of friendship. There could also be supressed romantic feelings, meaning you suffer quietly while your former lover moves on. However, you could also have a lasting friendship despite the breakup (though you'll probably need a while to recover).

Alternately, you may get a response like, "I don't want to compromise our friendship" or the dreaded, "You're too much like a brother to me." You may just say "damn" and move on or, once again, harbor romantic feelings for the person.

This is a sketchy subject and should be taken case-by-case. I'm sorry about your friends and I hope things get smoothed out in some form or fasion.


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spiffilicious05
post Dec 14 2004, 05:36 PM
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I don't know where I am on this issue. There are guys that I have turnned down due to the whole being friends first issue, however there are guys that I've broken up with and I am currently friends with.

So far the best relationship I've been in has been my current one with Righteous and we were friends for a few months first. I'm not saying this just because I am currently dating him, it's the truth. I think that being friends with him first has made our relationship that much stronger and I don't think that we could have lasted this long without being friends first. smile.gif


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Witless
post Dec 14 2004, 05:59 PM
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Well.. lemme clarify.. when I say friends.. I mean really close best friends.. I don't just mean casual friends.. most people date casual friends.. since that just makes sense, otherwise you'd start dating strangers, and that'd just not work. But yeah I was talking about dating really really close friends.


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Righteous
post Dec 14 2004, 09:55 PM
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Hmm. Well, Bernadette and I were close friends and now she no longer speaks to me. Andrea was my best friend for a long time after we broke up, but then jacked me around before coming around and apologizing. I am still friendly with her, though not as close. Harmonie and I dated, broke up, became best friends, dated, broke up, remained friends, got engaged, broke up and were close friends for a long time until extenuating circumstances which I'd rather not discuss hurt our friendship.

As I've said, it's a very sketchy, very delicate situation being in a relationship with a dear friend. Regardless of the strength of the friendship, there may be residual hurt and what-not brought on by the breakup, as with Bernadette. On the other hand, friendhip could pull through and things can be peachy afterward though, of course, subject to the fragilities of your standard friendship (as with Harmonie and Andrea).

THen again, you and your best friend could be talking on the phone one day and all-of-a-sudden realize you're in love with eachother and end up being together almost a year.

It's a bit of a gamble, eh?


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Phyllis
post Dec 14 2004, 10:15 PM
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It's definitely a gamble when you enter into relationships with close friends.

My soon to be ex husband and I were best friends before we started a relationship. It took us 4 years of living together (3 of them marriage) to figure out that we simply function better as friends. We fight a lot less this way (though there have been several disagreements, just due to leftover hurt feelings and general badness), and we just don't want the same things out of a romantic relationship.

But, would I take back those 4 years if I could and remain just friends to begin with? No way. We still aren't completely okay with each other again, but we're getting there. As painful as the ending of it was for me, the whole thing taught me quite a bit about myself.

I guess my general thought is that if someone is worth being really close friends with, then you won't let a romantic relationship gone bad come between the two of you. If things go bad and neither of you can get over it...then chances are the friendship wouldn't really have lasted, anyway. I tend to fall almost exclusively for really close friends, myself...just because I know them really well. But that has led to a couple of times where I got the "You're like a sister to me" speech. dry.gif But oh well. Can't help who you fall for, really.


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Twitching
post Dec 15 2004, 03:04 AM
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Input from me: Dating anyone is just like this crazy jumble of everything, and dating close friends is all that, but moreso. My first real boyfriend was a really good friend of mine, and we dated for about six monthish. The break up wasn't so much messy as it was just plain weird. (I'll spare everyone the details.) But that was over two years ago, and we didn't talk for ages. (Mind, we just didn't talk. We weren't not speaking.) Only recently did I finally have a conversation with him, after which I realized that he didn't hate me. (Eh. I kinda dated a friend of his shortly after we broke up. Nothing going on while I was still dating him though.)

And I think that's probably the only relationship I've had that this would apply to.

Although there was this really long masochistic phase where I was all about a good friend of mine. o.O After which I realized that he didn't like me like that and I decided to stop being an idiot and got over him in a hurry. We're friends now, but not like we were. (Which is fine by me.)


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Kitty
post Dec 15 2004, 03:22 AM
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'M not sure how liable my thoughts on this subject are, since I've only had one boyfriend in my life, and after reading about everyone elses descriptions of their relationships I find mine to be a rather odd relationship.

I've never met my boyfriend, I met him online after he and his friend played a pretty devestating joke on me (well, devestating for a 12 year old) Just I "liked" his friend and he said "Oh yea I'll go out with you" a few days later his real girlfriend sends me all these messages yelling at me saying that he's her girl not mine.

Anyway, my boyfriend is the one that dared the other guy to do that stuff. Ended up talking to him (his name is Jax) And got him to say sorry- which is supposodly a big thing for him. Tough NY guy, grew up in the bronx, you know?

Anyway, got to know him a bit, a few weeks later he moved and I didnt hear from him for 3 months, I grew pretty worried because I had become rather attatched to him, he was the first- maybe second- person I've ever _reallly_ talked to. So he finally got back online.... _really_ depressed guy. Stripped of everything he knew was home and right. So I just talked to him.... I needed someone to bounce my ideas off of and he was perfectly ready to listen. Plus he was fun! And funny. So we became really really close.

Being a 12 year old and compleatly against anything human- I didnt really see any sort of farther relationship with him, though I knew I really really liked him. He restrained saying that he loved me more than just a friend till his other idiot friend decided that he wanted to tell me. Screwed me up for a day. Since my past with him I wasnt so sure how that was sopposed to work out. But sure enough, we ended up together. Very tight bond between us, even though I never physically met the guy.

Started out as a friend. Sorry if the post was long, I like telling my little story, I find it very intresting. I dont have the real physical aspect of it, though that doesnt seem to matter on a certain level.

Though I do agree that it really depends on the way you handle your situations together, if you promise to still work though things that are tough and be friends still, then it will most likely work....


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Black-Wings
post Dec 15 2004, 10:16 PM
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Ok Pan.. you are going to be so proud of me for saying this wink.gif

Anyway, I fancy my friend.. hmmm... although I mean.. it really depends how close you are originally to your friend. I mean, if you have a really sound friendship then surely it will all be fine if you break up. Because you could just view it as just a little try out.. just to see if it's worth taking your friendship a little further. I mean, it's much easier to date a freind aswell because you already know about them and you already have that kind of unspoken feelings for eachother and trust. And isn't there that whole thing about love depending on trust and all that?


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Kitty
post Dec 15 2004, 10:46 PM
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I think trust is the biggest and maybe one of the hardest things to have between to people, and keep. But I definatley agree that trust is the basis for love.

Do you think you learn to love or if its some pre-destined sort of thing?


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the lil' pie...
post Dec 16 2004, 12:57 PM
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You learn. Whenever you think you've figured out how to love, a new bit of the feeling will pop up and surprise you. It's just finding that one person who can learn with you that's the trouble in life.


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Kitty
post Dec 16 2004, 01:02 PM
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Heh ^^ I think I've found that person already. I hope I'm not mistaken though, because that will really hurt if I am.

The thing that annoys me most is the people that think they're so in love and they're my age. And I know, I know know know they're not in love. And I always tell them to watch out because its not what they think it is, and they dont take my word and get hurt.

=(


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Smiler
post Dec 16 2004, 02:01 PM
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mMMMMmmm Juicy AND Dicey [Edit-Blerghals! Sorry bit long and ramblish]
I cant say I'm fully in one mind or the other really. So far most of the arguments have been posted (I always was a bit slow) but its not been said that starting a relationship with a stranger can end in just as much mess as one with a mate. I've not had a great many girlfriends but have always kept the friendship bit and girlfriend bit under control in so much as as my girlfriend they are my friend, hence the same wording used ...'friend'. Ok maybe I or the argument are simple, but in element, it's truth.
I see my relationships, all types, verey clearly and I love my mates. Its a different love depending on the person. 'The Boys', that is my old cadet mates that are like brothers, my college mates, my uni mates, school mates, this crowd of neardowells on Matazone. I like to be there for the people I care about, and am close and open to those I call friend. So whether friend or girlfriend I act upon/ react to the person and situation. Very indecisive and worryful though about the ladies wink.gif
I was kinda 'forced' into my first relationship, well, more co-erced and 16 which made a bad combo (long, dull yet satisfying story). Then, I was introduced to my current ball and chain by FaerieRyn. After about a month of occasional meet ups around Uni mates, me & Jo got together (4 years ago now) but we weren't friend friends ya know? Mate of a mate sort of thing. Its going... um strong? erm... well, going...
I've certainly had friends whom I've thought 'hmmm...wonder whether that'd work' but I've either not been in a position to go for it or just not followed through (and incidentally kept solid friends). Or not. The friendship is the key, I kinda recon you just know if it will or wont and whether it'll mend afterwards. Oh yeah and the personality of the person involved wasnt mentioned earlier either. An arse is gonna squash everything, but if your a decent boy/girl you can probably right wrongs if it goes that way or ride the good times well building on whatever happens.
So, in conclusion... erm... I dunno wink.gif

This post has been edited by Smiler: Dec 16 2004, 02:03 PM


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Jonman
post Dec 16 2004, 02:30 PM
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Surely the whole point of finding a 'life partner' is to be with your best friend anyway?


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Dec 16 2004, 03:00 PM
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Spot on there Jonman, but the question is, do you have a go at it with someone you are already good friends with, or do you find someone you like THEN become good friends with them. The first of those options can be something of a social faux pas and can lead to ending otherwise perfectly good friendships and can create friction in a group of friends.


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Witless
post Dec 16 2004, 04:32 PM
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yeah, that's what I'm thinking.. with a casual friend that you become a life partner with, there was never that "just friends" phase to lose. It's all to gain, but whether you like it or not, if you date your best friend you lose your "just friend" and gain a partner. Sure you and your partner can be frieneds and lovers.. but.. the just friends things kinda lost, and a lot of people can't go back to just that afterwards.
It's easy to say that if they are really good friends then it will work out, but in practice lifes never as simple as that. At the end of the day if you dated your friend feelings were there.. and unless they simply switched off as soon as it stopped working, feelings might well be there after the split too.
I can't imagine feeling too good when my ex who's my best friend starts inviting new partners out got a drink with me (which just friends often do), if the feelings haven't 100% faded yet, and then you run the risk of resenting your ex, when they've done nothing wrong. I've had to console my friend when what i just described happened to him. It's one of the reasons I'm a little pessimistic about dating a best friend. *hopes the said friend doesn't join matazone and find this topic*


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the lil' pie...
post Dec 20 2004, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE (Sir_Psycho_Sexy @ Dec 16 2004, 03:00 PM)
Spot on there Jonman, but the question is, do you have a go at it with someone you are already good friends with, or do you find someone you like THEN become good friends with them. The first of those options can be something of a social faux pas and can lead to ending otherwise perfectly good friendships and can create friction in a group of friends.
*

I don't know about that first one...I mean, that's what's happened with me, and no friction/badness has been caused. And it's working remarkably well. I can't think of any way I could be happier at the moment.
Then again, finding someone and cultivating a friendship over time might work better for people that are worried about the first...why can I not make up my mind on this topic unsure.gif


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Kitty
post Dec 20 2004, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (the lil' pie fairy @ Dec 20 2004, 08:02 AM)
why can I not make up my mind on this topic unsure.gif
*


Maybe because theres no standard way to find someone you like?


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the lil' pie...
post Dec 23 2004, 03:16 PM
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*nods* that could be it, I guess. In the end, maybe what isn't the social norm would work better for individual people. It might stop a lot of unhappiness, too.


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froggle-rock
post Dec 23 2004, 11:20 PM
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QUOTE (Jonman @ Dec 16 2004, 02:30 PM)
Surely the whole point of finding a 'life partner' is to be with your best friend anyway?
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Pretty much, the way I see it.
Hmm, not to sure about 'life partner', but you did put it in quaotation marks, plus that's another rant.

QUOTE (Sir_Psycho_Sexy @ Dec 16 2004, 03:00 PM)
Spot on there Jonman, but the question is, do you have a go at it with someone you are already good friends with, or do you find someone you like THEN become good friends with them. The first of those options can be something of a social faux pas and can lead to ending otherwise perfectly good friendships and can create friction in a group of friends.
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I reckon if you sit around thinking 'either or' your just limiting yourself, and putting constraints and rules and conditions and stuff on how a good relationship will come about for you.. That is either I seek to have a go at it with someone I am already good friends with. Or I find someone I like become good friends with them. Either way can work, but I guess you'll never know which one'll end up leading to 'the relationship of your life' untill it happens.

With referance to the 'social faux par' way, I'd have to say that I went down that road. Were friends for ages before we realised that we liked eachother _in that way_. Then we got to gether, it was great. We didn't speak for a good while after we broke up. But ultimatly we we knew we loved each other and we started hanging out together again. We are now good friends.

On the other hand, I'm currently with some one I only knew for a few weeks before we started dating. It's going well, and we have become close and good friendsy since we've gotten together.

I guess, if they want to try it out they should. If it causes a divide in the group _if_ they split in a messy way, then obviously the group arn't strong enought to deal with it. But surley the group will think that the pursuit for a happy relationship is worth the risk, if they want to see _if_ these two inividuals can find happiness together?


But hey.

What happened btw Witless?


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A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
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Kitty
post Dec 23 2004, 11:54 PM
Post #25


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I agree with funked)out_frog on this one. You shouldnt define how to find your perfect person because I dont think it ever works out how you think its going to, or should, happen. As I stated, I met my boyfriend through him doing something aweful to me and in the end we're best friends and we make a good couple.

Its all just chance.... methinks.


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Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things that escape those who dream by night
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