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Guest_over_the_aybss_*
post Apr 12 2005, 11:43 PM
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fire_dragon
post Apr 13 2005, 07:44 PM
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Your poems awesome! ph34r.gif


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 14 2005, 01:10 PM
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Alright, much like many other poems on this board, I find it ultimately boring. There seems to be no poetic devices in this; no metaphor, no simile, no rhythm. This really reads more like a disjointed prose piece (read: a short essay with sporadic presses of the enter key) than poetry. It's not beyond redemption, but it needs a lot of work.

Keep writing. Refine yourself.


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depressed lonely...
post Apr 14 2005, 01:13 PM
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There doesn't seem to be much of a point to it and I find the way it's been broken up confusing.


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 14 2005, 08:49 PM
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No, you see the problem is is that's not really good poetry. It's prose that's been written time and time again that just happens to be broken up in certain spaces. Poetry needs (on top of emotion) poetic devices. Rhythm, rhyme, metaphor, it's all needed to make poetry - what the vast majority of society doesn't understand is that anyone who writes down something and calls it poetry does not necessarily make it so. Poetry is hard work and that's why it's so fulfilling when ultimately you craft a good one.

-As a side note, I'd like to point out that poetry also doesn't have to be completely dark and gloomy, either. That's another societal misconception.

Keep writing. Refine yourself.


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voices_in_my_hea...
post Apr 14 2005, 10:16 PM
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well.... I Liked it. Sure, it may not be defined as poetry, but I like your writing.

You should also read PWM's signature.


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trunks_girl26
post Apr 15 2005, 12:24 AM
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Hun, Mike wasn't being harsh or mean or trying to break your spirit.

If you read his second comment, he's giving you constructive criticism and ways to improve your writing.

Now, shall we calm down and take a look?

Have you ever tried reading your poetry out loud to other people? By reading it out loud, you can get a sense of how the poem flows and where things like punctuation could help the reader, who, you must remember, doesn't know how you hear it in your head, to hear and feel what you're trying to capture.

Remember, poetry is "powerful emotion recollected in tranquility"-Wordsworth.

And always keep writing. If you like what you write, that's all that matters.


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 15 2005, 02:50 AM
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Alright - you're offended; I didn't do anything to offend you - my comments were made in an amiable fashion and if you're looking for a fight, then that's your problem; not mine.

As for lumping you into a group of people, I didn't do that - you did it yourself. However, while we're on that subject, methinks thou doth protest too much. Who are you trying to convince that you're original?

I simply tried to help you in a nice way to improve your poetry. Criticism should be the life blood of your poetry.

I'd now like to take the time to ask you to please deal with whatever problems you have with me in a calm and civil manner. That shouldn't be too hard, now should it?


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dancing hamster ...
post Apr 15 2005, 08:37 AM
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Nice to see a bit of the old mike coming through!

Anyway, its not bad, I suppose...
Now I have no idea about poetry. I messed my English exam up so I shouldn't complain. But does it need some punctuation perhaps - I nearly passed out trying to say it in one breath.
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rainbowclogs
post Apr 16 2005, 09:29 PM
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I don't care what anyone says, poetry is from the heart and doesn't necessarilly require punctuation or rhyming couplets, iambic pentameter or whatever else makes other people feel comfortable.
I read a poem of about 4 stanzas which was utter crap by a well known and well resprected poet, I think it was Ted Hughes, which was akin to putting a brick in the Tate Midern and calling it 'art'. Noone told him to be more deep or use stanzas or commas..
This poem speaks about your experiences, your alienation and your refusal to adhere to rigid stereotypes. Am I the only person who can infer what you are talking about??
Don't let anyone stem the flow of your creativity. I used to do that and after a while the creativity died. It's only recently I have got it back.
You were brave allowing people to see your thoughts and I liked the ideas. I have certainly related to some of the emotions.

KEEP CREATING!! The world is your poem!!

Rain xx smile.gif
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rainbowclogs
post Apr 16 2005, 09:37 PM
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arrrrrrrggghhh!! PLEASE ignore the typing errors!! blink.gif ohmy.gif
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trunks_girl26
post Apr 17 2005, 03:34 AM
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Actually, if you read the quote I put in my comment, it refers to emotion, which comes from the heart, m'dear.

And please, before you start flinging insults about, at least think about the comments that we're making. When you display your work to others, you must be prepared to have people give you their opinion. I have my own up here, and you're always free to do the same.

Now, the only major problem is the fact that when reading poetry, punctuation is the only time when you're suppossed to breathe. While as rainbowclogs mentioned a poem that has no punctuation, which, I admit freely, happens sometimes with more well-known poets, but, also as rainbowclogs pointed out, the poem was only four stanzas long. Yours is considerably longer.

Now, I'm going to suggest reading your poem out loud and when you take a breath, insert some sort of punctuation- commas work well. Or, if you stop at every line, indicate to the reader that he should as well stop by putting in punctuation.

Now, once again, I say don't stop writing. Writing is fun, but it can also be hard work. happy.gif


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 17 2005, 04:55 PM
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QUOTE
...I really would like to know what other people think...


There. You asked for other peoples opinons. You wanted criticism. We gave it and we gave it nicely. You are the one with a problem here.


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Novander
post Apr 18 2005, 10:54 PM
Post #14


Take apart your head
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QUOTE (over_the_aybss @ Apr 18 2005, 10:10 PM)
I probably just won't write anymore, I can see now that nobody like it anyway  sad.gif
*
Is it the way that everyone is telling you to keep writing that makes you think this?

PWM and Ange have offered a little criticism, thats all. And I agree with them. Its great that you're writing and I hope you continue to do so, but until you start using poetic techniques the poems aren't going to mean much to anyone except you.

No one here is trying to insult or upset you so please stop trying to start fights.


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trunks_girl26
post Apr 18 2005, 11:11 PM
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Alright, as I'm trying to be diplomatic here, I'm going to try one more time to explain.

I'm not bashing your work, I swear, if I was, you would know it. But I'm not.

Show me where I said anything that resembled calling your work horrible and I will gladly appologize.

That being said, I'd like to once again state that it is in your best interest, from the point of view of the reader, to place some sort of punctuation marks, in order to let the reader breathe.

Yes, I did infact read what rainbowclogs said, and actually, if you read my above post, you'll see I even quoted what they said. happy.gif

And once again, I invite you to make the same sort of sonstructive criticism to any of my poems. They're in creations. When you put your work into a forum like this, you sometimes find yourself with people who have different opinions. We're not bashing your work, just showing you our view of it.


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 19 2005, 01:29 AM
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You give poets a bad name - this is exactly why everyone thinks that all poets are tempermental little people that can't take criticism. This is making my life harder as a poet, and I resent it.

That said, I told you that it needs revision. I didn't say anything malicious (until these past few posts when the subject matter has been your replies and not your work) and I didn't intend to, either. I've been warned and I've learned my lesson. Feel free to bash my poetry if you want to eye for eye tooth for tooth me. I enjoy criticism of any type. Good or bad. There is no growth without it.There's a link to it. Post away.


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depressed lonely...
post Apr 19 2005, 12:54 PM
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This person is just being childish and wanting an ego rub. they aren't worth much more than this if they can't deal with criticism.
It gives me the s**ts


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Mata
post Apr 22 2005, 01:00 AM
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Bear with this, it does get to a good point at the end:

*deep breath*

Right...

QUOTE (depressed lonely crazy person @ Apr 19 2005, 12:54 PM)
This person is just being childish and wanting an ego rub. they aren't worth much more than this if they can't deal with criticism.
It gives me the s**ts
*

That didn't really help anything.

PWM, I see what you were trying to do, but I think you've missed the point that a vast amount of people don't actually care half as much about the technical details of stanza construction as you do.

Some people write and share poetry just to try and get things off their chest. The very act of creating anything is usually more important than the final result. If you think that's a load of rubbish then maybe you should read up about Gustav Metzger and autodestructive art.

I think what may have happened here is a conflict between a Poet (a person who takes the form and the progression of it very seriously) and a person who is writing poems. The two of them have utterly different perspectives on what is important. The Poet believes that the act of writing is entirely about the resulting words. These words may be laboured over for years on end (Coleridge was rewriting The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner for 28 years and still never got it how he would have liked). A person who is writing poetry may be something completely different. For them it is about the expression of a moment in their lives. To paraphrase Wordsworth's introduction to The Lyrical Ballads, it is about man in a state of vivid sensation being expressed in the common language of the land. Such times may not lead to the most erudite or well expressed poems, but they retain a charm and that gives them importance for the writer.

This leads to the issue of how they should be responded to. As with poems that can be thought to be great or a load of rubbish (I believe Ted Hughes has already been mentioned (and no, I'm not really bothered by his stuff either, although I do quite like 'The Bricks' in the Tate)), a response to a poem can often be read two ways: a critique can easily be seen as an insult, and there is a narrow line sometimes. For the record, I do think that PWM would have been on the correct side of that line if it weren't for the fact that this was clearly this person's first post, and without being able to judge more easily what sort of reaction was being sought then it is always better to err on the side of caution before going off into a full critique of form and expressive terms.

So what can be done?

In future, if a poem should strike you as something that you desperately want to critique then firstly always find something nice to say. If you really cannot find _anything_ nice to say then you have two options:

1) shut up and don't say anything. If you feel so strongly that the poet is hopeless then it's probably far better to just let them happily chip away at their notebooks than it is to entirely discourage them from writing something else

2) politely state that the poem doesn't appeal to you for a number of reasons and then ask if the person if they are looking for a detailed critique, emphasising that it is the form of expression that you are going to discuss, not the subject matter. This isn't rocket science. This forum is built on respect, and sometimes we have to ask others to clarify what they are looking for to maintain that respect.

2 brings me on to my final point. Yes, people have written about rejection, isolation, individuality, and lack of understanding before. They will again. This doesn't mean that it is impossible to write a good poem about it. A lot of people have these feelings at some point in their life and so it is only natural that there will be a lot of poems about it. Surely it is better that a person writes about something that they feel rather than forcing themself to write about fluffy bunnies all the time?

Many great poems have been written about these subjects and others that are related, death, longing etc etc etc. The subject matter of the poem really isn't something that should ever be a main point in a criticism.

I used to drink at a pub called The Ship. It was one of very few 'alternative' pubs in my home city out of a very large number of drinking establishments. We would describe it as the pub where everyone was being different in exactly the same way. Even rebelion frequently has conformity, but still there is a market for goth music with lyrics saying exactly the same things as they were twenty years ago. All the people in the pub thought that they were being individual, despite the fact that to an outsider they were just a mass of black, but, the thing is, that they were right. They were being individual, just as the people in every other pub, living room, bedroom, tent, or hut in the world was being different.

We are all individuals, and what we feel will always be personal to us. Part of feeling isolated is a difficulty in recognising that other people may have felt the same emotions, but even if they have it doesn't matter because those emotions are still real and expressing them is still perfectly valid. In such circumstances it is often more important that the expression happens at all rather than the precise technical qualities of it.

I agree, the poems might benefit readers if they have a different arrangement, punctuation etc. but would OTA's feelings benefit from this?

Don't always look on the words of poems as the important end result. Sometimes it is that the process has occured that it more important, and in such cases the writer will often not really be that bothered by the final result as much as hoping that people can understand the emotions that they are feeling.

I read those poems and I know the emotion that OTA is feeling and in that they are effective. My personal thoughts on the validity of those feelings to my life are utterly unimportant. PWM, your comment that the subject matter is overused is really missing the point. That's like saying to a person with clinical depression 'why can't you just cheer up?' The point of the poem is that you understood how OTA felt. Your personal opinion of the feelings expressed in the poems is that they are angst. The poems were effective in conveying the feelings of the writer to you, that those feelings are not ones that you give a damn about is besides the point and shouldn't enter into your discussion of the poem.

If you can't relate to the emotions in a poem in the same way as the writer then you most likely aren't the target audience. Your options then are then either to ignore it or politely ask if the writer would like a little criticism of their style. Launching into this from a person's first post is always going to make a bad impression, and a little caution never goes amiss.


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artist.unknown
post Apr 22 2005, 02:00 AM
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Agreed, Mata, Mike's aproach often tends to discourage the less tough-skinned poets and should be mitigated in instances where he doesn't know that the poet is looking for an intensive, blunt criticism. In PWM and Ange's defense, though, I think the melodramatic reaction may have been a bit much, and the poet should perhaps have been a bit more gracious about constructive criticism. The one thing that's important to learn as an artist or poet is that not everything can be taken as a personal attack. Listening to other opinions never hurts, and if you truly do disagree, ignoring them never caused much serious trauma either. Aggressive rejection of other opinions is not reasonable when it comes to art, even your own.

Besides, without a little criticism here and there, where would the angst for the next piece come from? tongue.gif


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PsychWardMike
post Apr 22 2005, 02:11 AM
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Mata, I wasn't trying to villify anyone. If I did, then I apologize. However, I believe was, before being antagonized, fairly respectful. I've come to try to adopt your belief that creation is an inherently good thing, hence my "Keep writing. Refine yourself." Comment. I don't mean to be combatitive, but I honestly felt it was lacking in poetic essentials and I said that in my review. As far as the subject matter, I believe that my response was misinterpreted. When I said that everything had been said before, I meant that there was an abundance of cliched phrases. If that was offensive, I didn't mean for it to be, but I again believe it true.

In short, I didn't mean for anything to be augering. It was a simple critique that got way out of hand because as nice as I'm trying to be, people still can't take it.


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Mata
post Apr 22 2005, 03:26 PM
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Mike, I really do understand what you were trying to do. Maybe it's the poet in you, but sometimes when you're giving honest feedback you use words that are perhaps more emotive than you realise.

Things did get out of hand in this thread, and a feedback loop developed, which is unfortunate, especially if it has meant that OTA truly has been discouraged from developing her writing. As you say, some people aren't at the point in their writing careers where they can take criticism, constructive or otherwise. As I've said in the Criticism thread, in future it might be a good idea to mention that you are a poet and politely ask if they would like some criticism of their form to help them improve their writing.

Poetry for many people is so personal that criticism can be taken as a deeply intimate insult. It might not be this way for you, but for some this is the truth and they see any criticism as demeaning their right to feel the validity of their own emotions, which understandably makes them very defensive. I think that's what happened here.


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Mata
post Apr 23 2005, 12:38 AM
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Nice to have you back. I don't like it when things go sour and especially when it is over a misunderstanding!


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froggle-rock
post Apr 23 2005, 01:53 AM
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I'm not a poet, nor do I go out of my way to read poetry. My favourite poet is e. e. cummings. The poems by him that I have read seem to use punctuation quite sparingly. I hold him to be my favourite poet because he stirred up raw emotions in me. Maybe I should make an effort to expand my reading of poems, but to be honest I doubt I will.
I'm not trying to take away from the craftsmanship aspect of writing a poem, but 'reading' poetry to me is about being either me touched by it or not.

It's good that you came back biggrin.gif


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rainbowclogs
post Apr 23 2005, 03:27 PM
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I think Mata made some good points there and also showed you that we all have different tastes as well which often makes our criticisms of poems very different. The bricks in the Tate are a good example to use again. I personally found no creative genius in their presence, but I can happily stand in the Saacthi Gallery and feel overwhelmed by the imaginative genuis of a room full of petrol. We all differ and yet we are all the same in our own funny ways, if that makes sense...??That's the beautyof it all (cue a drift into rainbow dreaminess and philiosophical trance-like state!!..).

I'm looking forward to your next creation personally. I often like to use poetry as a means to paint and have found some inspiration from the creations on this site so feed my ideas (if that doesn't sound too strange!!)
As I said before..........
KEEP WRITING !!

Rain xxxx smile.gif
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depressed lonely...
post Apr 25 2005, 03:08 PM
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I like these batter than your previous things...but I would find them a little boring and generic if you hadn't made the connection between them and romeo and juliet which makes them kind of interesting.
Like a good connection to the baz lurman leo de-crapio modern thing which in that context iritated me


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