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> MONSTERS, loch ness monster big foot etc
monsters are they real???
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mc joe
post Sep 3 2005, 11:53 AM
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please could you also vote and give me website influenceing your choice thanks!!
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PsychWardMike
post Sep 3 2005, 04:39 PM
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I don't have a back up website. I have common sense.


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little_bear
post Sep 3 2005, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Sep 3 2005, 05:39 PM)
I don't have a back up website.  I have common sense.
*

Ditto, except for the reason that I don't believe bullsh*t. Bonus!


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Astarael
post Sep 4 2005, 10:56 PM
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I don't need a website to not believe in utter nonsense with no actual proof. For the record, faked photographs and fake footprints are not proof. The Abominable Snowman was made up because people didn't see snow leopards screaming when the leopards were in hiding. Nessie is either an ordinary fish or the influence of alcohol on supposed viewers. Bigfoot is people fooling their gullible friends with furry suits or merely bears. We've discovered nearly every animal except some obscure ones in the rainforests. If ANY of these monsters were real, we'd know for sure by now. They're all supposed to be massive and intimidating. This means too large to be undiscovered in this day and age.
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Snugglebum the D...
post Sep 4 2005, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE
If ANY of these monsters were real, we'd know for sure by now. They're all supposed to be massive and intimidating. This means too large to be undiscovered in this day and age.


I beg to differ. Well, actually, I'm just going to disagree outright.

I believe in the possibility of Nessie. Not because of any evidence that may or may not be real but more because Loch Ness is an immense body of water, with several very deep caves. Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Apart from which there are still several areas of the ocean that are completely unchartered which could mean species of life we don't know of.

We may be the dominant species on this planet, but we don't know everything.


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Astarael
post Sep 5 2005, 05:12 AM
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QUOTE
In 1962 The Loch Ness Investigation Bureau was formed to act as a research organization and clearing house for information about the creature. In the beginning it only conducted research for a few week in the year, but by 1964 they established a more permanent presence around the Loch. Eventually the Bureau established camera stations with both still and cinema cameras with telephoto lenses. They had vans which served as mobile camera stations, and underwater listening devises. Searches were conducted using hot-air-balloons and infrared night time cameras, sonar scanners and submarines.

A great deal of information was discovered about the Loch, but they have yet to produce any concrete evidence of a monster.

That amounts to forty-six years of gradually more sophisticated searches. Lots of people really want to prove that Nessie exists. The loch is enormous and there is supsicion about Nessie. However:
The first known photgraph of a snow leopard wasn't taken until 1970. There were no standing cameras around, and people had been searching for evidence of the cats for a very long time. The Himalayas stretch across lots of wilderness and the snow leopards rarely venture below 1800 feet, but a persistent scientist finally managed to snap a picture.
My point is that even over 46 years of continuous searching by many methods, there is no evidence of Nessie, which (if it ever rises above the surface of the water to be sighted) ought to be far easier to find than a snow leopard or any of the other elusive animals that have already been discovered.
http://www.crystalinks.com/loch_ness.html
That link contains the full quoted article.
I've never heard of Nessie in the ocean. I could buy a giant squid or something, but nothing Nessie-like has ever been sighted in open oceanwater as far as I know.


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eleraama
post Sep 5 2005, 10:09 PM
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Well, the problem is that Loch Ness is over a mile deep and is murky as anything, with various icky things floating around messing up SONAR, and decaying things messing up infra-red.

As for Nessie-like things in the ocean, it's rather more likely there than Loch Ness, as a surviving Pleiosaur. And don't even scoff; we've all heard about that prehistoric fish they found living off the coast of Africa.

From a purely sociological standpoint, something like Nessie had to have existed sometime in the past to warrant its legendary existance. Now I'm not refuting that it may have been a whale, but at the same time, whales and their ilk don't have long necks. Unless I've been looking at the wrong sort of whales my entire life.

EDIT: Oh, and think about how many years we had the legend of the giant squid (and the Kraken) before we found one. They live really deep; why couldn't a Nessie-like creature?


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Mittens322
post Sep 6 2005, 12:02 AM
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MY DAD ENCOUNTERED SASQUATCH! MONSTERS ARE REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![COLOR=red]


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PsychWardMike
post Sep 6 2005, 12:49 AM
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I think your head encountered a brick wall at a very young age.


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Mittens322
post Sep 7 2005, 08:19 PM
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My dad walked outside side his apartment and Sasquatch/Big Foot/Yeti was digging through the dumpster. My head did not encounter a brick wall! It was just a brick.


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arachnidoc17
post Sep 8 2005, 01:00 AM
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QUOTE (eleraama @ Sep 5 2005, 06:09 PM)
EDIT: Oh, and think about how many years we had the legend of the giant squid (and the Kraken) before we found one. They live really deep; why couldn't a Nessie-like creature?
*




There's a big difference between a Kraken and a Giant Squid.


As for finding prehistoric fish along the coast of Africa- Exactly. We FOUND them. What HAVEN'T we found yet? What HAVEN'T we refutable evidence of, set aside the blurry photo, complete with large-yet-unearthly-smooth waves? Any chance that photo is just an old sculpture in water?

Who says we're not actually all made of gingerbread, and our brains are being bombarded with waves that give us the illusion that we are of flesh and bone?


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PsychWardMike
post Sep 8 2005, 02:34 AM
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Somehow everyone who really believes in monsters usually reminds me of Invader Zim's Dib. Kudos to those that get that.

KID 1: "Don't listen to Dib. Zim isn't an alien. This is the same kid that said he saw Big Foot in his garage."

DIB: "... He was using the belt sander."


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Quoth(The Raven)
post Sep 8 2005, 03:09 AM
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What annoys me, are people who refuse to beleive a thing MIGHT be possible. Lack of evidence, you see, works both ways... Just because no one has found proof that something exists, that same lack of proof also means the debate is open... Ironically, the only thing that will close the debate, is proof that these creatures DO exist... you can argue that they are not possible, until you're blue in the face, but you simply cannot prove a negative... only proof that they exist, is proof positive...

Or, to put it another way... It is impossible to prove a thing doesn't exist. It is only possible to prove that it does exist... biggrin.gif

Next, the so-called "Fossil Fish", the coelecanth... We keep saying it was only discovered recently... The thing is, natives in that part of the world have been catching and eating the things for thousands of years. It's the height of arrogence, I think, to think that only our 'modern' world matters... by saying that the Coelecanth was 'recently' discovered, we discount the experience of generations of other human beings, who knew that the thing existed all along...

And, finally, we address the "If it existed, we would have found it by now" crowd... There are still vast expanses of the world, that are unexplored... and people and things go dissapearing every day. You can't have it both ways... either things and people find ways to dissapear - as obviously they do - or we know where everything/everyone is... If a person, whom we know exists, can remain hidden for decades, then, logically, why can't Bigfoot, or Nessie, who are said to be animals, and, therefore, better equipped to survive and hide in their environments, remain hidden for centuries?

Again, the burdon of proof is always on the skeptics. Beleivers only say that a thing is Possible, and, logically, Anything is possible. Those of you don't beleive in anything beyond the pale, still have to prove your point, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Something that will never happen...


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DarkProtector
post Sep 8 2005, 03:56 AM
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Of course i believe in monsters i've seen too many of them to not believe.


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Witless
post Sep 8 2005, 06:59 AM
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Oh, oh, my turn, my turn... I don't know if I believe but.. since everyone is saying that I am going to play devil's advocate and put in an evidence to suggest they "might" exist anyhow.

If everyone on the planet died today, in one billion years time.. any intelligent life would be very likely to find any proof we exist at all. Why?
Well continental drift/plate tetonics and erosion takes care of our grand old cities then the only possible evidence is fossil evidence. Let me explain a little about fossils. Fossils are rare.. very rare infact. The process of turning bone/body into fossil is very very specific and requires very specific conditions. We find so many because life produces so many organisms that even with the low quantities of life there's still a lot of fossils. But to prove how few fossils are normally produced by any one species, consider that among the 8 variations of protoman than we believe to have existed, less then 15 skeletons have ever been found.
Every theory we have about our ancestors is based on this sliver of evidence. So... over millions upon millions upon millions of years all our ancestors have only managed to provide less than 15 full skeletons, and a splattering of odd bones.
With the less than a million years than we've around (plus our habit of placing our bodies in soft soil (which will famously not produce fossils from the bones)). Our whole species is not likely to produce many long wearing remains. What are the chances of any future intelligent species of stumbling on any of the minute dozen or so sets of remains we'll leave across the surface of the entire globe? Slim/none.

So.. let's zoom ahead a billion years, and let's assume that some small tribe of humans some how has continued to survive relatively unchanged to today. Amongst a planet full of some weird 8 legged intelligent beings that are the new kids on the block. They'll be no evidence we existed, none of this fossil evidence around either. Infact everything leading up to us will pretty much be invisible. No one will be searching for this. The last remaining humans will likely be very scared to be seen, so many some blurry hologram pictures will be taken of our descendants fleeing back into the wilderness. But will be discredited because, "nah, their fakes, obviously so!", or with "where's the fossil evidence!"

The point of that little fantasy is that, it is not beyond the realms of possiblility that even us, as the current kings of the castle, that are having such a strong effect as to change the very nature of the surface of the planet, could end up as some mythical beast as a blurry image on the 53rd page of some future races sci-fi magazine.

Just pointing out that it's "possible".

Stop being such judgers people! Don't decide yes or no so definitavely when the courts not yet been adjourned and the evidence isn't all in!


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uninspired pizza...
post Sep 8 2005, 07:24 AM
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I agree, although i do lean a lot more to the 'yes' side than to sit in the middle. Much like most legends, stories that are exagerated and taken out of context then become totally unbelievable nonsense. Thats where i believe some of these creatures come from. Simply exagerations of reality to make stories a little more interesting when passed on to other people.


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arachnidoc17
post Sep 9 2005, 12:57 AM
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Oh, yeah, it's POSSIBLE. But then again, it's POSSIBLE that we are all controlled by tiny gnomes in space, and it is also possible that gasoline is actually liquified pixie dust made by the Tooth Fairy on the distant planet Zebra Cakes 4.


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uninspired pizza...
post Sep 9 2005, 01:06 AM
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If you really want to go that far, reality is nothing more that our own perception of it. As far as we know, all of the above is true. Heck, even the matrix could be real. As long as there's the possibilty of something, and given that we cant actualy prove/disprove the reality of it, we cannot dismiss the possibility of anything. It also possible that we are nothing more that the materialization of Gods dreams in his mind. Sorry, now i am rambling.


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arachnidoc17
post Sep 9 2005, 01:15 AM
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I can never deny it's POSSIBILITY< but I CAN say, based on logic, that 'Nessie and Sasquatch are probably just tall tales.


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Quoth(The Raven)
post Sep 9 2005, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (arachnidoc17 @ Sep 8 2005, 07:57 PM)
Oh, yeah, it's POSSIBLE.  But then again, it's POSSIBLE that we are all controlled by tiny gnomes in space, and it is also possible that gasoline is actually liquified pixie dust made by the Tooth Fairy on the distant planet Zebra Cakes 4.
*


okay. Where is the proof? Do you have evidence, for example that we're NOT controlled by tiny gnomes in space? Do you have evidence that gasoline ISN'T liquified pixie dust, etc.? That's the thing about possibilities... no matter how unlikely they may seem, you can't prove it, yay or nay.

1. You can't prove tiny Gnomes don't exist on earth, much less in space. Just because you haven't seen them, or found traces of them, doesn't mean a thing, considering the fact that there is no way you could be everywhere, at every moment, to observe everything. The only proof is the prescence of evidence. Without it, YOU are the one working on baseless theories, while your opponent, who beleives, just gives you a maddening smile and says, "What if".

2. simiilarly, you can't prove mind control doesn't exist, either. You can only state your opinion that it doesn't. In both these cases, you are espousing a negative, which can never be proven, unless you develope a computer that can scan all of time/space, recording all events, everywhere, every moment. With such a machine, you could prove your point by elimination... ("Sector g-34567, moment 9456897 from big bang... nope, no mind controlling gnomes, here... let's move on... same sector, moment 9456898... nope, they're not here, either... move on to..."). But, in the abscence of such a device, you're forced to rely on evidence... evidence that can't dissprove, but may one day prove...

In otherwords, all your arguments against "Monsters" existing are moot, as you can't back them up with a single shred of evidence. You can only take comfort in the fact that your opponents, the beleivers, suffer the same handicap, as no Definitive proof has yet been found that they DO exist... evil.gif


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kisah
post Sep 9 2005, 04:15 PM
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I voted yes but only because a 'no' vote would get me kicked out of my church.

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mc joe
post Sep 9 2005, 05:10 PM
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isnt big foot a big species of gorilla i dont see any monster characteristics ib them
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pgrmdave
post Sep 9 2005, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Quoth(The Raven))
What annoys me, are people who refuse to beleive a thing MIGHT be possible. Lack of evidence, you see, works both ways... Just because no one has found proof that something exists, that same lack of proof also means the debate is open... Ironically, the only thing that will close the debate, is proof that these creatures DO exist... you can argue that they are not possible, until you're blue in the face, but you simply cannot prove a negative... only proof that they exist, is proof positive...


I have a dragon in my garage...


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arachnidoc17
post Sep 9 2005, 09:25 PM
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Well, here's a LOT of evidence tha Nessie does not exist.



There. Two definite pictures that show no Loch Ness Monster. Remember, I only need to show you evidence that implies that he does NOT exist. These pictures do not neccesarily imply that it was somewhere else at the time, but it DOES imply that the non-existant Loch Ness Monster was there, however, it didn't exist. Now, if you insist on showing me this photo,

then you have to remember Christian Spurling, the photographer of the photo, confessed on his death bed that it was a toy submarine and some putty.


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Quoth(The Raven)
post Sep 10 2005, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (arachnidoc17 @ Sep 9 2005, 04:25 PM)
Well, here's a LOT of evidence tha Nessie does not exist.



There. Two definite pictures that show no Loch Ness Monster.  Remember, I only need to show you evidence that implies that he does NOT exist.  These pictures do not neccesarily imply that it was somewhere else at the time, but it DOES imply that the non-existant Loch Ness Monster was there, however, it didn't exist.  Now, if you insist on showing me this photo,

then you have to remember Christian Spurling, the photographer of the photo, confessed on his death bed that it was a toy submarine and some putty.
*


Ah, ah, ah! An image without Nessie in it, only means that Nessie wasn't present at that moment in time, and point in space... You have not proved that Nessie wasn't elsewhere at the time...

Again, I reiterate: You cannot prove a negative; you cannot prove a universal absence. this is an imutable law of the universe. It is one of the few things that you can count on as being a constant. As Spock would say: Simple logic.

Also logic: One example of a hoax does not prove that ALL evidence is the product of a hoax... It simply means that the one proven hoax is a hoax, nothing more.

It all comes down, once again, to beleif... I, for example would like to beleive in the existance of ghosts, but I will not accept the prescence of a particular ghost, until I have experienced it personally, and come up with no other explanation. At the same time, I will not, as many skeptics do, stretch a lame excuse as an explanation. It's all up to what I beleive, and I'm honest enough to admit that it's all about beleif. I don't whine that there must be a logical reason (Which is basically Skeptic code for: "There must be a reason I can accept without altering my basic beleif system.").

However, while I beleive in ghosts on general principle, but demand proof for specific instances, I find myself openly hostile to the idea of DEmonic possesion. Because Demonic possesion implies the existance of Satan, who is not welcome in my world view. I can accept the possibility of mental illness being mistaken for possesion. I can accept the possibility that there are non-physical entities who pretend to be demons. I can even, kinda sorta, beleive that your average, garden vareity ghost might be able to posses someone... though I'd have to see specific proof. But I refuse to beleive in an ultimate evil who goes around messing with little girl's heads. Surely, if Satan does exist, he has a helluva lot more to concern him, then a handfull of little girls, whose stories get exaggerated into hokey potboilers for mass consumption...

Again, I admit that this is a blind spot generated by my personal beleif system... But I Do admit it. I don't hide behind buzzwords like "Logical explanation" or "Proof positive". I beleive what I beleive, but am willing to give that beleif a little leeway...

What irritates me, is when other people simply can't admit THEIR Modus Apparendi, and hide behind bad and psuedo science, to try and make their opinions sound like fact. BLEAH!


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Arthur, Gwen, and Quoth...Onwards to 4000 posts!Quoth is Cath's noob - what was she thinking?:)Duckflaps!Watch out for low flying kittens!'Dance, Monkey, Dance!' Well, this monkey don't dance no more!Never say 'die'... except as a command! I adopted Insaneperc!What kind of fool do you take me for? I don't know. How many kinds are there?
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th October 2017 - 10:24 PM
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