Religious Freedom Versus Freedom Of Speech, the unstopable force meets the immovable Options

[bryden42]

Ok, So I am all up for free speech and whilst not a great fan of religion I also up for anyone believing in whatever they wish but an interesting situation arose for a teacher friend of mine the other week and I thought that I would field it to you guys to discuss.

It goes like this:
Teacher is asked by small girl (who is a Pentacostalist christian)
"how long can someone hold their breath for?"
Teacher (with alarm bells ringing) asks
"Why do you want to know?"
Little girl replies
"last Sunday the pastor was telling us about jonah and the whale, And I was wondering how long jonah could have held his breath for"
Teacher replies
"I think that that story is meant to be allegorical"
Small child gets Irate and says
"No its not our pastor says so, and he said that anyone that saidit was is going to hell"

Now there are a number of things that concern me about this story (Respect for elders and the brainwashing of small children not withstanding) what concerns me here though is the fact that after the outburst the teacher in question left the conversation and walked away, Why? because of fear of losing a job. This leads me to the question where do you draw the line between being able to say what you want despite the religious implications and religion being able to control what is said, for example the Hamas party has recently said that it does not recognise Israel and its right to exist or believe what it does (not an exact quote but deffinately the upshot of).
Of course I don't recognise any religions right to tell me what I can or cannot say or do does this make me an extremist? (of course I have enough respect for others beliefs to live and let live).

Any body else any thoughts?

[sjbbandgeek]

How can one appreciate the light when one has never seen the dark?

[Calantyr]

How can one appreciate the light when one has never seen the dark?

But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.

[Phyllis]

But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.

Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it.

Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence.

[Calantyr]

But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.

Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it.

Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence.

That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be.

[Phyllis]

That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be.

I don't think it is. What would be the point of creating perfect people? Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves. They've had it all handed to them. How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it? Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships.

And as for the all-knowing thing...I don't think most Christians believe in fate and pre-destiny. Some probably do, but I'd say they're using a deity as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. I always thought that the "all-knowing" thing applied to the present...as in he knows what you do at all times. But the future is different in that it's your own to decide. In that case God chooses not to intervene with your spiritual development so that the people who get to heaven are really worthy of being there. That's how I've always heard preachy Christians talk about it, anyway.

I do think that the all-knowing argument has a bit more merit than saying God doesn't exist simply because there is suffering in the world or because he could have made us perfect. It's strange arguing on the Christian side when I don't believe in any of it and have never been to church even once....I think believe is warping my innocent mind! (not really...there's not a chance of me converting )

[CrazyFooIAintGet...]

What would be the point of creating perfect people?  Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves.  They've had it all handed to them.  How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it?  Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships.

I don't think that temptation is a good way of sorting the 'worthy' from the unworthy. In my opinion, we choose right or wrong based on what we have been taught is right or wrong and our experiences. People are not being tested properly by suffering or temptation because their experiences influence how they will behave.

What makes anyone worthy of reward now? Everyones lives are different, and while noone is perfectly capable of avoiding temptation, some people are more capable than others because of the situation they are in.