 Religious Freedom Versus Freedom Of Speech, the unstopable force meets the immovable |
 Jan 30 2006, 08:03 PM
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 Flash Gordon Wannabe  Group: Established Members Posts: 504 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 1,984 Gender: Male  |
Ok, So I am all up for free speech and whilst not a great fan of religion I also up for anyone believing in whatever they wish but an interesting situation arose for a teacher friend of mine the other week and I thought that I would field it to you guys to discuss.
It goes like this: Teacher is asked by small girl (who is a Pentacostalist christian) "how long can someone hold their breath for?" Teacher (with alarm bells ringing) asks "Why do you want to know?" Little girl replies "last Sunday the pastor was telling us about jonah and the whale, And I was wondering how long jonah could have held his breath for" Teacher replies "I think that that story is meant to be allegorical" Small child gets Irate and says "No its not our pastor says so, and he said that anyone that saidit was is going to hell" Now there are a number of things that concern me about this story (Respect for elders and the brainwashing of small children not withstanding) what concerns me here though is the fact that after the outburst the teacher in question left the conversation and walked away, Why? because of fear of losing a job. This leads me to the question where do you draw the line between being able to say what you want despite the religious implications and religion being able to control what is said, for example the Hamas party has recently said that it does not recognise Israel and its right to exist or believe what it does (not an exact quote but deffinately the upshot of). Of course I don't recognise any religions right to tell me what I can or cannot say or do does this make me an extremist? (of course I have enough respect for others beliefs to live and let live). Any body else any thoughts? -------------------- I like your house... can I come in!
S P A N G L E D by Faerieryn what I do when I have too much time on my hands My Devart page |
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Feb 16 2006, 04:23 AM
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 ... Group: Established Members Posts: 750 Joined: 2-October 03 From: In front of a computer, duh. Member No.: 618 Gender: Male |
How can one appreciate the light when one has never seen the dark?
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Feb 16 2006, 06:37 AM
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 Perfection Personified Group: Established Members Posts: 1,128 Joined: 17-December 04 From: Land of the Wombles! Member No.: 1,548 Gender: Male |
QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 16 2006, 05:23 AM) How can one appreciate the light when one has never seen the dark?  But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built. -------------------- "Too often Fate,
By all abhorred, To savage poison, Adds the sword" - Boethius, The Concillations of Philosophy |
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Feb 16 2006, 08:16 AM
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 Candbrush Threepwood Group: Established Members Posts: 5,391 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Derby Member No.: 345 Gender: Female |
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 15 2006, 10:37 PM) But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built. Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it. Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence. -------------------- I love you in a way that is mystical and eternal and illegal in 20 states.
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Feb 16 2006, 11:13 AM
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Perfection Personified Group: Established Members Posts: 1,128 Joined: 17-December 04 From: Land of the Wombles! Member No.: 1,548 Gender: Male |
QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 09:16 AM) QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 15 2006, 10:37 PM) But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built. Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it. Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence. That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be. -------------------- "Too often Fate,
By all abhorred, To savage poison, Adds the sword" - Boethius, The Concillations of Philosophy |
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Feb 16 2006, 04:16 PM
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Candbrush Threepwood Group: Established Members Posts: 5,391 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Derby Member No.: 345 Gender: Female |
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 16 2006, 03:13 AM) That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be. I don't think it is. What would be the point of creating perfect people? Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves. They've had it all handed to them. How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it? Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships. And as for the all-knowing thing...I don't think most Christians believe in fate and pre-destiny. Some probably do, but I'd say they're using a deity as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. I always thought that the "all-knowing" thing applied to the present...as in he knows what you do at all times. But the future is different in that it's your own to decide. In that case God chooses not to intervene with your spiritual development so that the people who get to heaven are really worthy of being there. That's how I've always heard preachy Christians talk about it, anyway. I do think that the all-knowing argument has a bit more merit than saying God doesn't exist simply because there is suffering in the world or because he could have made us perfect. It's strange arguing on the Christian side when I don't believe in any of it and have never been to church even once....I think believe is warping my innocent mind!  (not really...there's not a chance of me converting  )
-------------------- I love you in a way that is mystical and eternal and illegal in 20 states.
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Feb 18 2006, 01:19 PM
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 Has been kidnapped by gerbils and forced to post on here repeatedly Group: Established Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 18-September 03 From: London Member No.: 606 Gender: Female |
QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 04:16 PM) What would be the point of creating perfect people? Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves. They've had it all handed to them. How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it? Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships. I don't think that temptation is a good way of sorting the 'worthy' from the unworthy. In my opinion, we choose right or wrong based on what we have been taught is right or wrong and our experiences. People are not being tested properly by suffering or temptation because their experiences influence how they will behave. What makes anyone worthy of reward now? Everyones lives are different, and while noone is perfectly capable of avoiding temptation, some people are more capable than others because of the situation they are in. -------------------- Kung fu fighting from 25th April 2010
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Feb 18 2006, 05:18 PM
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Candbrush Threepwood Group: Established Members Posts: 5,391 Joined: 28-May 03 From: Derby Member No.: 345 Gender: Female |
QUOTE (crazymat @ Feb 18 2006, 05:19 AM) I don't think that temptation is a good way of sorting the 'worthy' from the unworthy. Never said it was a good way...which is one of the (many) reasons I'm not a Christian. I was just trying to say what I think the rationale is. I don't actually agree with it. I don't like the argument of suffering when talking about the existence of any deity...because I don't think it works to disprove that. But it's a better argument when talking about a perfect God, I'll admit. -------------------- I love you in a way that is mystical and eternal and illegal in 20 states.
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Posts in this topic
bryden42 Religious Freedom Versus Freedom Of Speech Jan 30 2006, 08:03 PM
beleraphon interesting
I'd have bounced it back to the ... Jan 30 2006, 10:12 PM Mata The expression of beliefs is always a tricky thing... Jan 31 2006, 12:19 AM Calantyr She asked the question to the teacher. They is per... Jan 31 2006, 12:40 AM Mata It would certainly be an interesting test case. I... Jan 31 2006, 12:12 PM Calantyr Oh I'm not saying we should beat all sense of ... Jan 31 2006, 05:44 PM bryden42 just to add to this, I heard on the radio on the w... Jan 31 2006, 07:25 PM Museum Girl The teacher ought to be able to explain biological... Jan 31 2006, 08:27 PM Astarael All of the above advice sounds sensible. When the ... Feb 1 2006, 12:25 AM
beleraphon QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 1 2006, 12:25 AM)How on... Feb 2 2006, 05:50 PM
Jonman QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 1 2006, 01:25 AM)How on... Feb 2 2006, 07:58 PM sjbbandgeek In California, a teacher can tell a student that t... Feb 1 2006, 12:55 AM candice QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Jan 31 2006, 04:55 PM)In... Feb 1 2006, 02:55 AM sjbbandgeek I apologise for exaggerating the comment. As far a... Feb 1 2006, 05:11 AM Daedalus Seems like a fairly hefty grudge to hold against s... Feb 1 2006, 10:27 PM Museum Girl QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 1 2006, 01:25 AM)How on... Feb 2 2006, 08:47 PM Astarael That would just about do it. I was a bit puzzled b... Feb 2 2006, 09:32 PM sjbbandgeek Teachers do not have the responsibility to discuss... Feb 3 2006, 04:44 AM Wookiee I thought this thread might have something to do w... Feb 3 2006, 12:10 PM beleraphon QUOTE (Wookiee @ Feb 3 2006, 12:10 PM)I thoug... Feb 3 2006, 12:52 PM Wookiee QUOTE (beleraphon @ Feb 3 2006, 01:52 PM)A da... Feb 5 2006, 01:09 PM Mata They are completely right to be incensed by the ca... Feb 3 2006, 01:24 PM Calantyr I like how lots of them are complaining that the c... Feb 3 2006, 01:41 PM beleraphon just remeber that its only a minority of muslims w... Feb 3 2006, 01:53 PM Calantyr Oh believe me, I don't think that every Muslim... Feb 3 2006, 02:07 PM beleraphon And the paper that printed the pictures was delibe... Feb 3 2006, 07:34 PM Astarael The cartoons had indeed been out for a while, but ... Feb 3 2006, 10:16 PM Mata Do they have a right to be so angry? I'm reall... Feb 4 2006, 01:35 AM artist.unknown Well, it must be pointed out that it wasn't on... Feb 4 2006, 09:26 PM Astarael The Muslims who are giving death threats and havin... Feb 4 2006, 10:07 PM Jonman QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 4 2006, 11:07 PM)When s... Feb 4 2006, 11:48 PM trunks_girl26 QUOTE (Jonman @ Feb 4 2006, 06:48 PM)QUOTE (A... Feb 5 2006, 12:04 AM Jonman QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Feb 5 2006, 01:04 AM)Q... Feb 5 2006, 03:46 PM Calantyr QUOTE (Jonman @ Feb 5 2006, 04:46 PM)That... Feb 5 2006, 05:59 PM Mata RE: Religious Freedom Versus Freedom Of Speech Feb 6 2006, 01:26 PM bryden42 Mata, That rules!
Wow, when i started this to... Feb 6 2006, 06:43 PM Witless All those questions remind me of a documentry I sa... Feb 6 2006, 08:28 PM Calantyr The first 'religious war' wasn't faugh... Feb 7 2006, 06:01 PM Mata The problem with that approach is that religion is... Feb 7 2006, 06:52 PM bryden42 QUOTE On a pedantic note to Bryden: Taoism is a ph... Feb 7 2006, 07:55 PM Astarael The demand for beheadings is far too extreme. I ca... Feb 7 2006, 11:41 PM Mata It's nice to see a sensible response from some... Feb 8 2006, 04:05 PM Astarael That's a very mature and good thing to do. The... Feb 8 2006, 09:28 PM bryden42 QUOTE the media being attracted to raving sensatio... Feb 10 2006, 09:24 AM trunks_girl26 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4691878.stm... Feb 10 2006, 08:01 PM Calantyr QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Feb 10 2006, 09:01 PM)... Feb 10 2006, 08:36 PM Astarael Wow. So mocking the Holocaust will make everything... Feb 10 2006, 09:56 PM Mata On the other hand, maybe Jews will show demonstrat... Feb 11 2006, 01:18 AM bryden42 QUOTE but I remain an optimist hmmm optimism vs re... Feb 11 2006, 10:06 PM Mata You can be an optimist and be aware of the statist... Feb 12 2006, 06:39 PM Astarael I was thinking of people everywhere being outraged... Feb 12 2006, 07:39 PM Calantyr QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 12 2006, 08:39 PM)I was... Feb 12 2006, 07:45 PM Mata I can't remember for sure; am I right in sayin... Feb 12 2006, 11:08 PM Calantyr QUOTE (Mata @ Feb 13 2006, 12:08 AM)I can... Feb 12 2006, 11:16 PM Mata It's actually quite tricky to think of a less ... Feb 12 2006, 11:40 PM Calantyr QUOTE (Mata @ Feb 13 2006, 12:40 AM)I wonder ... Feb 12 2006, 11:50 PM Astarael How on earth do you think of Mother Theresa and as... Feb 13 2006, 09:33 PM Mata There is a lot of criticism over her approaches to... Feb 14 2006, 12:40 AM bryden42 WOW, When you put it like that it kind of makes yo... Feb 15 2006, 08:19 PM Astarael People see what they want to see, and this may not... Feb 15 2006, 09:40 PM Mata The influence of the Catholic church may have some... Feb 15 2006, 10:57 PM Calantyr If God knows the future and whether we will succee... Feb 16 2006, 01:58 AM Calantyr QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 05:16 PM)I don... Feb 17 2006, 04:42 AM bryden42 QUOTE That's all rather missing the point. An ... Feb 16 2006, 01:26 PM sjbbandgeek Well, in a perfect world, there is freedom of choi... Feb 17 2006, 03:02 AM trunks_girl26 QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 16 2006, 10:02 PM)We... Feb 17 2006, 04:17 AM sjbbandgeek Freedom of will and freedom of choice are the same... Feb 18 2006, 04:43 AM Calantyr QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 18 2006, 05:43 AM)Fr... Feb 18 2006, 05:01 AM artist.unknown QUOTE (crazymat @ Feb 18 2006, 02:19 PM)What ... Feb 18 2006, 05:08 PM trunks_girl26 QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 17 2006, 11:43 PM)Fr... Feb 19 2006, 05:14 AM artist.unknown QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Feb 19 2006, 06:14 AM)... Feb 19 2006, 03:59 PM trunks_girl26 QUOTE (artist.unknown @ Feb 19 2006, 10:59 AM... Feb 19 2006, 08:57 PM believe Wow, am I late in posting. What I'm going to... Feb 25 2006, 05:35 PM Erin i was having a talk about religion and evolution w... Mar 13 2006, 12:50 PM |
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