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> Religious Freedom Versus Freedom Of Speech, the unstopable force meets the immovable
Astarael
post Feb 12 2006, 07:39 PM
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I was thinking of people everywhere being outraged, really. The Holocaust is such a sensitive subject that it would likely fall into the same category as cartoons making light of torture. (Unless you think the Holocaust never happend, that is.)


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Calantyr
post Feb 12 2006, 07:45 PM
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QUOTE (Astarael @ Feb 12 2006, 08:39 PM)
I was thinking of people everywhere being outraged, really. The Holocaust is such a sensitive subject that it would likely fall into the same category as cartoons making light of torture. (Unless you think the Holocaust never happend, that is.)
*


Plenty of people don't think it happenned. Not because of the lack of evidence, but simply because it's preferable to their agenda.

I mean why believe in the mass graves, the million of people who dissapeared, the families with missing parents and children, or the remains of the death camps, when it gets in the way of good ol' Israel-hatin'?

I believe the president of Iran recently tried to set up a confrence where it would be debated whether the Holocaust happenned at all. Needless to say not many historians outside the middle-east were interested in it.


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Mata
post Feb 12 2006, 11:08 PM
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I can't remember for sure; am I right in saying that holocaust denial is against the law in the UK?


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Calantyr
post Feb 12 2006, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Feb 13 2006, 12:08 AM)
I can't remember for sure; am I right in saying that holocaust denial is against the law in the UK?
*


No. It's against the law in Germany and Austria, but not in the UK. Here it is just considered 'Bloody Stupid'.


And on the discussion of free speech.

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetai...t=Entertainment

QUOTE
Paris Hilton in Indian director's 'Mother Teresa'?
Thiruvananthapuram February 12, 2006 11:15:06 AM IST

Well known Malayalam director T. Rajeevnath, scouting for a suitable actress to play the title role in his film on Nobel Peace laureate Mother Teresa, has sent feelers to American actress Paris Hilton.

"My agents in California have contacted Paris Hilton," Rajeevnath told IANS.

The director said he was impressed when he read a report sometime ago in which the hotel heiress said she had refused to pose nude in Playboy magazine and decided then to shortlist her.

The English film will be mostly shot in West Bengal and in several foreign countries.

"The preliminary script has been readied with help from scriptwriter John Paul," the director said.

Rajeevnath, 54, has won a national award for direction, besides quite a few international awards. His popular films include "Moksham", "Janani" and "Thannal".

"Mother Teresa" will be his 11th commercial film and he has already sold this idea to a few international production houses including the US-based First Serve International.

"I am leaving for the US early next month to finalise the producer. A few production houses have evinced interest in producing this film. The budget is expected to be in the range of Rs.500 million ($11.3 million) to Rs.600 million," he said.

"Although there are several actresses willing to play the role of Mother Teresa, the most widely respected and loved person, the history of the actress who is finally chosen for the role would have to be analysed thoroughly before she is chosen," said Rajeevnath.

"All those whom I have contacted have agreed to do their bit to help me in this film. The cast includes Mithun Chakravarthy, Kamal Haasan, Mohanlal and several others. Veteran cameraman Santosh Sivan has also been roped in. The Ramoji Rao Film city has pledged full support for the venture," added the veteran director.

Among the specialties of the film would be the character of former West Bengal chief minister Jyoti Basu, whose association with Mother Teresa is well known.

"The proceeds of the film would go to the Missionaries of Charity. By June this year, the groundwork for the film would be complete and I propose to begin shooting in early 2007," said the director.

Rajeevnath expects to get the blessings of the Pope for the film and also hopes to sign in sitar maestro Pandit Ravi Shankar as music director.

(IANS)



I can just image the advertising campaign.

"Mother Teresa does Delhi! One and a half hours of uncut footage!"
"The poor have never been so needy!"
"The passion of the nun!"

Urgh.

I say we get our rosary beads and molotoves and meet outside the Indian embassy at 0900 sharp.


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Mata
post Feb 12 2006, 11:40 PM
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It's actually quite tricky to think of a less appropriate person to cast. Maybe the fashion guy from 'Queer Eye for the Straight Guy', but other than that not many names spring to mind. I'd pay good money to see Angeline Jolie do it though. [insert witticism here]

I wonder if they'll have the bit where Mother Teresa only gives aspirin to those dying of AIDs because the pain is good for their soul?


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Calantyr
post Feb 12 2006, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Feb 13 2006, 12:40 AM)
I wonder if they'll have the bit where Mother Teresa only gives aspirin to those dying of AIDs because the pain is good for their soul?
*


...

...

...


What? I never heard about that! Have you got a link?

I thought she was just a kind, gentle, shrivvled old granny that kept getting caught in earthquakes.


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Astarael
post Feb 13 2006, 09:33 PM
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How on earth do you think of Mother Theresa and associate her with a gibbering bimbo like Paris Hilton?
Anyway, I'd like to see the information about the asprin. That sounds like a whole new side of her.


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Mata
post Feb 14 2006, 12:40 AM
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There is a lot of criticism over her approaches to treating the sick. A guy who made a documentary for Channel 4 about her also wrote a book on the same subject. There's a short review of it/its content here:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/312/7022/64/a

QUOTE
Where does all her money go, for a start? For this Hitchens can find no satisfactory answer, although there is no doubt that Mother Teresa could, if she chose, set up the finest teaching hospital on the Indian subcontinent. She hasn't done so, and to those like myself or Robin Fox (who wrote in the Lancet about her Calcuttan home for the dying) who have visited her organisations and seen syringes run under cold water and reused, aspirin given to those with terminal cancer, and cold baths given to everyone, this is inexcusable.


My mistake: it was terminal cancer, not AIDs apparently (although I suspect that no variation in the treatment was made for AIDs). Bear in mind that millions were donated to her from around the world.


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bryden42
post Feb 15 2006, 08:19 PM
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WOW, When you put it like that it kind of makes you wonder why this isn't more widespread knowledge and how she has managed to accrue such a reputation in opposition to these allegations.


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Astarael
post Feb 15 2006, 09:40 PM
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People see what they want to see, and this may not have been such public knowledge in her time. Everyone noticed that she was immensely charitable and helped people, so the exact means of treatment likely just slipped under the radar.


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Mata
post Feb 15 2006, 10:57 PM
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The influence of the Catholic church may have something to do with the lack of prominent criticism of Mother Teresa's behaviour, although I suspect that Asta is probably more on the mark: people just preferred to think of her as a kindly old lady, and the church preferred to count the money that the donations she generated gave them. I also once read that she would only treat people who would adopt Catholicism, anyone else was ignored. It makes sense in the Catholic scheme of things, 'the body is evil and weak, all pain is a test sent to try us, by enduring suffering we become closer to God' blah blah blah. I sometimes think it's amazing she even gave out aspirin. If God wanted suffering then why create painkillers?


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Calantyr
post Feb 16 2006, 01:58 AM
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If God knows the future and whether we will succeed or fail, why create suffering in the first place? It's not a test if the result is in no doubt.

No, I don't accept the logical gymnastics they go through in order to allow free will.


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sjbbandgeek
post Feb 16 2006, 04:23 AM
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Calantyr
post Feb 16 2006, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 16 2006, 05:23 AM)
How can one appreciate the light when one has never seen the dark?
*


But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.


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Phyllis
post Feb 16 2006, 08:16 AM
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QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 15 2006, 10:37 PM)
But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.
*

Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it.

Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence.


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Calantyr
post Feb 16 2006, 11:13 AM
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QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 09:16 AM)
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 15 2006, 10:37 PM)
But an all powerful God wouldn't need to expose us to the Dark in order that we appreciate the light. It would be in-built.
*

Having something built in isn't as beneficial as learning it for yourself. Facing challenges, growing as a person, blah blah. Yeah, the result might already be known by an omniscient creator...but it still helps to develop the characters of those who do meet the challenges. I could give a child a weekly allowance, and he would learn an appreciation of money. But he'd learn to appreciate the money more if he actually had to do something to earn it.

Granted, I don't believe in an all-powerful God either. Not even a little bit. I just don't think that suffering is a very good argument against his existence.
*



That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be.


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bryden42
post Feb 16 2006, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE
That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be.


In the christian example, I think that we were created perfectly but then original sin happened, we became other than what was intended.

My argument here is that an omniscient and omnipotent creator would have known that this was going to happen, as they would have known everything that has followed. Total lack of free will ensues as everything is predestined so I might as well stay in bed as doing so is within (insert deity here)'s infallible plan and it will therefore all turn out for the best anyway. smile.gif


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Phyllis
post Feb 16 2006, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 16 2006, 03:13 AM)
That's all rather missing the point. An all powerful god would be able to make us perfectly with a perfect appreciation for the lessons we should have been taught. We wouldn't HAVE to suffer etc to become better people, we would already be the best it was possible to be.
*

I don't think it is. What would be the point of creating perfect people? Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves. They've had it all handed to them. How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it? Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships.

And as for the all-knowing thing...I don't think most Christians believe in fate and pre-destiny. Some probably do, but I'd say they're using a deity as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions. I always thought that the "all-knowing" thing applied to the present...as in he knows what you do at all times. But the future is different in that it's your own to decide. In that case God chooses not to intervene with your spiritual development so that the people who get to heaven are really worthy of being there. That's how I've always heard preachy Christians talk about it, anyway.

I do think that the all-knowing argument has a bit more merit than saying God doesn't exist simply because there is suffering in the world or because he could have made us perfect. It's strange arguing on the Christian side when I don't believe in any of it and have never been to church even once....I think believe is warping my innocent mind! ohmy.gif (not really...there's not a chance of me converting wink.gif )


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sjbbandgeek
post Feb 17 2006, 03:02 AM
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Well, in a perfect world, there is freedom of choice. All men have that freedom. We all are perfect beings but we choose not to. The power of sin on earth is too powerful for anybody to resist it.
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trunks_girl26
post Feb 17 2006, 04:17 AM
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QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 16 2006, 10:02 PM)
Well, in a perfect world, there is freedom of choice. All men have that freedom. We all are perfect beings but we choose not to. The power of sin on earth is too powerful for anybody to resist it.
*


I don't see how freedom of choice could fit in to a perfect world, actually. If there's freedom of choice in a perfect world, then there obviously can't be any wrong choices (given the fact that it's a perfect world). And if there are no wrong choices, you can't have free will. See the dilema here?


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Calantyr
post Feb 17 2006, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 05:16 PM)
I don't think it is.  What would be the point of creating perfect people?  Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves.  They've had it all handed to them.  How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it?  Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships.


In that case God created us with the specific intent that some of us should fail, that we would be flawed and then condemned. As he had the choice to make us perfect but didn't shows a certain contempt, not love.

The souls would STILL be acting by themselves, just with a perfect ability to resist temptation. How is that any less reasonable than perposefully making a being that you know will fall and suffer eternal damnation, yet still going ahead with it? i.e original sin. If we were perfect from the start then this could not have happenned.

And specifically because of their 'perfection' they would be worthy. In a world where a being can be made absolutely perfect in every way, shape, and form from the very beginning the 'journey' is no longer important. The journey is meaningless if everyone must aspire to the same ideal, with no reasons or whyfors. All that matters is the end product. A perfect human would possess all qualities in perfection, including perfect worthiness.

And why would an all powerful God create a world at all? If they are perfect then they can have no desires, wants, or ambitions. If they have none of these things what can motivate them into any action at all?

QUOTE
And as for the all-knowing thing...I don't think most Christians believe in fate and pre-destiny.  Some probably do, but I'd say they're using a deity as an excuse to not take responsibility for their own actions.  I always thought that the "all-knowing" thing applied to the present...as in he knows what you do at all times.  But the future is different in that it's your own to decide.


That puts a limit on God's power if he only knows (and has always known) once you have made your choice. A perfectly all-powerful being is, by definition, void of such limitations. They should know everything, ever.

QUOTE
In that case God chooses not to intervene with your spiritual development so that the people who get to heaven are really worthy of being there.  That's how I've always heard preachy Christians talk about it, anyway. 


But anyone who God has made perfectly would be perfectly worthy. That is unless God's 'perfect' creation actually wasn't perfect no matter how hard he tried, which would again put a limit on their power. With an all-powerful God that's not possible.

QUOTE
I do think that the all-knowing argument has a bit more merit than saying God doesn't exist simply because there is suffering in the world or because he could have made us perfect.  It's strange arguing on the Christian side when I don't believe in any of it and have never been to church even once....I think believe is warping my innocent mind! ohmy.gif  (not really...there's not a chance of me converting wink.gif )
*


That's not really the gist of the argument. God *could* have made us imperfect so that we would be worthy of entering heaven (etc.), but that would mean that God was an imperfect being him/her/etc.self.

Likewise, if God *was* a perfect being then they there would be no reason for creation at all.


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sjbbandgeek
post Feb 18 2006, 04:43 AM
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Freedom of will and freedom of choice are the same thing, and they exist in a perfect world. And If I remember correctly, Eden was a perfect world. Look what came out of that.
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Calantyr
post Feb 18 2006, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Feb 18 2006, 05:43 AM)
Freedom of will and freedom of choice are the same thing, and they exist in a perfect world. And If I remember correctly, Eden was a perfect world. Look what came out of that.
*


Evidently Eden was *not* a perfect world or certain misfortunes would not have occured.


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CrazyFooIAintGet...
post Feb 18 2006, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (candice @ Feb 16 2006, 04:16 PM)
What would be the point of creating perfect people?  Then they all get to heaven no matter what and have done absolutely nothing for themselves.  They've had it all handed to them.  How does that make them worthy of the reward of eternal paradise if they never had the chance to face temptation to begin with since they were perfectly capable of avoiding it?  Why would an all-powerful God want to commune with souls that had never done anything for themselves? Yes they would be perfect, but that wouldn't make them worthy of any reward since they didn't have to work for that perfection and face hardships.

I don't think that temptation is a good way of sorting the 'worthy' from the unworthy. In my opinion, we choose right or wrong based on what we have been taught is right or wrong and our experiences. People are not being tested properly by suffering or temptation because their experiences influence how they will behave.

What makes anyone worthy of reward now? Everyones lives are different, and while noone is perfectly capable of avoiding temptation, some people are more capable than others because of the situation they are in.


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post Feb 18 2006, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (crazymat @ Feb 18 2006, 02:19 PM)
What makes anyone worthy of reward now? Everyones lives are different, and while noone is perfectly capable of avoiding temptation, some people are more capable than others because of the situation they are in.
*

Mm, that's very B.F. Skinner. Of course, his behaviorist theories denied the existance of free will; ie, if we are totally shaped and influenced by our environment, then we have no opportunities to choose for ourselves what sort of life we want to lead.

As for God and free will: "Angels" are alleged to be perfect, but they have no free will. Humans are imperfect, but have free will. This raises the question, how did the Fall happen if God was always in control? To quote Blake, "Did he smile his work to see?/Did He who made the Lamb make thee?"

So, a syllogism: One, an all-powerful God created Heaven and Earth, and has complete omnipotent control over Heaven, where there is no free will. Two, "evil," i.e. Lucifer, originated from the heavenly sphere. Conclusion: God is the origin of both Good and Evil. Naturally church doctrine does not like to point out this theological problem. However, it raises more questions about free will. If ultimately, God created both good and evil, heaven and hell, then why not allow free will? If both good and evil are derrived from the perfect God, then aren't they both perfect, merely polar? Why create evil and then punish his creations for acting evilly? All sorts of theological paradoxes are built into religion.


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-Grammar Nazi-quotes of the yesterday
It is only in his work that an artist can find reality and satisfaction, for the actual world is less intense than the world of his invention and consequently his life, without recourse to violent disorder, does not seem very substantial. -Tennessee Williams
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