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> Goths are society's savior!, Parents need not worry about goth kids..
Smiler
post Mar 21 2006, 09:11 AM
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Quoted yesterday in the Telegraph and brought to my attention this morning on the radio it seems that "Parents need not worry if their teenagers become goths." What took them so long???

Sussex University has made a study that shows goth kids are more likely to become doctors, lawyers or architects and that "The values of the goth subculture are very high-brow...They tend to enjoy old poetry, books and the arts." [and matazone] she forgot to say but we'll let her off.

I thought this was cool but as someone on the boards who can never truly claim a goth heritage, what does this mean??? I'm in publishing for Bob's sake!! Okay I work on learned journals and wanted to be a goth, does this count? Can we prove this study to be true??? Are goths better human beings???

Oh, this should be fun...


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Daria
post Mar 21 2006, 02:31 PM
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If you think of the intellectual side of a goth (I really don't want to use these labels, but I suppose I will have to)- books, poetry, the arts (as in the article), and tehn compare it with that of, very stereotypicaly, a chav then there must be an obvious difference. It probably has alot to do with the class of the person's parents- more likely a middle class family will have offspring whom also grow up to be a middle class family. Their kids may rebel, or become part of a certain group, but it doesn't take away the upbringing they have or the access to materials (ie books) which make them more intellectual.

I know this all sounds very high-brow and I know i am only using stereotypes, but this is how it comes across to me. It is also interestig to note that the article was in the Telegraph, not the Mail or the Sun.


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Witless
post Mar 21 2006, 03:02 PM
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I hate using labels too.. but for the sake of this post.. well I have to.

Recently I have noted that people confuse 'goth' and 'emo'. Goth culture has never and still isn't anything to do with that broody world hating image that emo has.
It was in the past simply just intelletual people that enjoyed looking deeply into things that had one thing in common that was an appreciation for extravagent clothing and very often the colour black. That's all it was really. From the outside people assumed they must be depressed because people generally assosciate the colour black with depression and death (colour you wear at funerals). So all kinds of stereotypes not based on reality came out, like them all being vampire wannabes and hanging out at graveyards.. etc etc...

If I did believe in labels (which I don't), I'd say goth was a mind set rather than a look, while emo is a culture and not a mindset. But I don't believe in labels since within both the goth world, emo world and chav world.. there's far too many exceptions to the rule for the stereotype to hold up well.


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Izzy
post Mar 21 2006, 11:36 PM
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I guess I'm labeled as a 'goth' at school, and as for "inteligence thingy" I'm not exactly sure if they're right or wrong. I'm in gifted, and so are several of my 'goth' friends, but other of my 'goth' friends, as much as I hate to say it, are stupider than second graders...

QUOTE
and haning out at graveyards..


I have almost never seen a goth hang out at a graveyard, but I have once or twice, to visit someone very close to me...

-Izzy


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gothictheysay
post Mar 22 2006, 01:18 AM
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Well, it depends. "Goth" is waaay too big of a label to fit on anything. But yeah, I can see a lot of people that are classed as "goth" fitting that. I might have been considered a "goth" at some point (screen name ohmy.gif), and I just wear less black now. For some goth people there is that link, and for others not. I know I enjoy dark poetry and I bet a lot of goths do too.


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Ign355
post Mar 24 2006, 04:30 AM
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ok, in reguards to the goth ppl, there are good goths and bad goths out there, what you all have been talking about are the goths that havent fully gotten into what a "ture" goth is. because a true goth is like "hardcor," they dont talk much or "interact" with ppl all to often and then they do they are usually talking to their goth friends on how much they h8 this world and how much they h8 the ppl around them even themselves and the friends they talk to. then if you go deeper into gothic ppl they even got so far as to slit their wrists or try to attempt to kill themselves, and i no this as for a fact because i had a friend that was goth all the way down deep in her heart, and she explained everything to me, and that was one day before she attempted to kill herself (im not gonna explain how), but the true goth is quiet, watches the world around them pass them by, and does nothing to but what they need to get by with their own lives.


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Wyvern
post Mar 24 2006, 10:43 AM
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Ultimately Goth is just a label. If you feel an affinity with it then fine, ultimately it all comes down to personal choice I know quite a number of Goths and frequently get called one myself. Every single one of us is different. Yes we have similarities but within any group of people you are going to find people who share music tastes, interests and humour its the way life works. If we were all completely unable to interact with each other the world would be a very bizarre place indeed...well more so than it is. tongue.gif
QUOTE
ok, in reguards to the goth ppl, there are good goths and bad goths out there, what you all have been talking about are the goths that havent fully gotten into what a "ture" goth is. because a true goth is like "hardcor,"

Okay I agree in every group there are 'good' and 'bad' types for pity's sake we are human after all, being Goth does not suddenly make you this two headed monster with fangs that should be torched on sight, but then it doesn't make a person a saintly innocent either. When it comes down to it we all bleed pretty much the same colour regardless of what we wear or do on the outside. blink.gif
Nobody can possibly know what 'True' Goth is because again that depends on the individual because otherwise you have to decide between all the wierd and wonderful variety that is Goth culture as a whole. You can't stand there and say well if that person is 'trad' and that one 'cyber' then the person over there happily mixing the two can't be a 'true' Goth....try and do that you'd go nuts there are so many wonderuos people out there. Besides you can't always spot the person who is Goth at heart because not all of them choose to outwardly adopt the recognised outward stereotype.
QUOTE
they dont talk much or "interact" with ppl all to often and then they do they are usually talking to their goth friends on how much they h8 this world and how much they h8 the ppl around them even themselves and the friends they talk to

Excuse me? Goths are some of the most social people I know, keeping in touch with each other is so important. Of course individuals need space and solitude once in a while but then who doesn't. Certainly the people in my area who may fit under the heading 'Goth' place a major emphasis on friendships and socialising. Its like one vast convoluted family tree, get adopted by one and there's no escape tongue.gif I'm pretty sure everyone has said I hate this world at some point or other when things are tough, but I am damn sure that being Goth is NOT about hating everything! From my experience there's a damn sight more about curiosity and exploring lifes boundaries. Sure that involves a curiosity about death the last big adventure but jeez there's thousands of other things to appreciate without even touching on that. So perhaps percieved Goth culture is quite dark, maybe a tad melancholy on occaision but that's not all it is and certainly not all the time!
QUOTE
then if you go deeper into gothic ppl they even got so far as to slit their wrists or try to attempt to kill themselves, and i no this as for a fact because i had a friend that was goth all the way down deep in her heart, and she explained everything to me, and that was one day before she attempted to kill herself

I am sorry that your friend felt that way and yes self harm and suicide are very real issues but they are not what makes someone Goth, they are issues which span all aspects of society. It fills me with sorrow to think that people see this as what it is to be a Goth. Life is full of so much joy and sorrow it is a bittersweet mix people handle it in different ways but DO NOT try and neatly package it under a convienient heading it only leads to the spread of misinformation and inaccurate preconceptions, inexcusable in any situation. It doesn't matter what group is being described the information is distorted, innaccurate and ultimately harmful.
QUOTE
but the true goth is quiet, watches the world around them pass them by, and does nothing to but what they need to get by with their own lives.

Maybe for some but there are plenty of them out there who dance and sing their way through life savouring every second, giving as much of themselves as anyone could ever ask and touching the lives of the people around them.
You cannot even begin to classify an entire social grouping on the examples of a select few, if you're set on creating a text book description of a Goth then go out and experience their world, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Excuse if that comes out as a long pointless rant but it struck a nerve methinks and needed to be said.


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Mar 24 2006, 10:43 AM
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QUOTE (Ign355 @ Mar 24 2006, 04:30 AM)
ok, in reguards to the goth ppl, there are good goths and bad goths out there, what you all have been talking about are the goths that havent fully gotten into what a "ture" goth is. because a true goth is like "hardcor," they dont talk much or "interact" with ppl all to often and then they do they are usually talking to their goth friends on how much they h8 this world and how much they h8 the ppl around them even themselves and the friends they talk to. then if you go deeper into gothic ppl they even got so far as to slit their wrists or try to attempt to kill themselves, and i no this as for a fact because i had a friend that was goth all the way down deep in her heart, and she explained everything to me, and that was one day before she attempted to kill herself (im not gonna explain how), but the true goth is quiet, watches the world around them pass them by, and does nothing to but what they need to get by with their own lives.
*


While I'm not a goth myself (I don't like wearing black), I know a lot of goths, some of them maybe a little attention seeky or two-faced, but really not in a way different to any other type of person. They're all pretty much well adjusted people, so I'm gonna go ahead and say: What the f@ck are you talking about?!

Also, please read the rules, they ask that you try to use correct English, it makes your posts easier to read and has the added bonus of making you sound like a grown up!


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Ign355
post Mar 24 2006, 05:37 PM
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ok wyvern although i do agree with you on some points and that there is no "true" goth out there, i dont agree with you on the thing that goths are very social and "intune" with thing, this is because i live in a big city 2million plus people, and in the 15years ive lived here, i have yet to meet a goth that will say mor then 2-5 words a day! even if you talk to them they will listen and all making eye contact, but if you ask a goth something they will just sorta nod their head like,"ok yea thats good, continue".


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Izzy
post Mar 24 2006, 10:17 PM
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^ Not exactly true, as a 'goth' I talk to plenty of people, I've typed more than 2-5 words so far...If someone would only say about 2-5 words in a conversation, that does not make them goth, it simply means either

A) they do not speak the language you speak
B)they hate you and do not wish to comunicate with you
C) they're in too much pain to speak
D) they're being very ignorant
or E) they lack the ability to speak at all.

Maybe they're nodding their head as if to say "yeah whatever, contineue with your story" because they want you to finish your story.


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trunks_girl26
post Mar 24 2006, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (devils_daughter @ Mar 24 2006, 05:17 PM)
^ Not exactly true, as a 'goth' I talk to plenty of people, I've typed more than 2-5 words so far...If someone would only say about 2-5 words in a conversation, that does not make them goth, it simply means either

A) they do not speak the language you speak
B)they hate you and do not wish to comunicate with you
C) they're in too much pain to speak
D) they're being very ignorant
or E) they lack the ability to speak at all.

Maybe they're nodding their head as if to say "yeah whatever, contineue with your story" because they want you to finish your story.
*


Or they just don't feel like talking, or they're just quiet by nature, or they just have nothing to contribute rolleyes.gif


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Phyllis
post Mar 24 2006, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (Ign355 @ Mar 24 2006, 09:37 AM)
i live in a big city 2million plus people, and in the 15years ive lived here, i have yet to meet a goth that will say mor then 2-5 words a day!
*

Err..what city would that be? I'm confused. Your member info says you live in Montana. As far as I know, there aren't even ONE million people in the entire state of Montana.


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bryden42
post Mar 25 2006, 10:44 AM
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*sings*
perky goth perky goth, la la, perky goth smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

ermmmm thats all i have to say
sorry for the spam smile.gif


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Mata
post Mar 25 2006, 11:21 AM
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The old classic 'real' goth argument. How I do love this one...

Pay attention, because, like the rules of Fight Club, this is a bit complicated:

Rule one about goths: There is no such thing as a 'real goth'.

Rule two about goths: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'REAL GOTH'.

I still remain convinced by my friend's summary of Goth: 'There is no movement, there is no cause, we just all like big boots'. Like all definitions of goth, it isn't perfect, but it's a lot less flawed than all the other ones I've heard!


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Cath Sparrow
post Mar 25 2006, 11:32 AM
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QUOTE (Ign355 @ Mar 24 2006, 06:37 PM)
ok wyvern although i do agree with you on some points and that there is no "true" goth out there, i dont agree with you on the thing that goths are very social and "intune" with thing, this is because i live in a big city 2million plus people, and in the 15years ive lived here, i have yet to meet a goth that will say mor then 2-5 words a day! even if you talk to them they will listen and all making eye contact, but if you ask a goth something they will just sorta nod their head like,"ok yea thats good, continue".
*


As one of the Goths who adopted Wyvern (and that number is really adding up now) tongue.gif I can quite happily say I've been a perky Goth for over half my life which is actually longer than you've been in exsistance sweetie. Yes at time I can be uncommunicative but that's because I can be shy around people I dont know (not that anyone here would believe that) and I think that can be said about alot of goths but as a group they're very social to the point of incest. I also think that alot of people become goth to cover there shyness because trust me dressing up is a damn good mask to hide behind. I also cant say I know anyone like you describe and feel the person you describe is following a misconceived sterotype (which is a very sad thing to do and understand they will have there reason and wish them luck in finding what they need).
From experience I would rather stand by what Wyvern, Mata and Witless describe as a goth because I've met a lot more of those type of people and enjoyed there company.


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{Gothic Angel}
post Mar 25 2006, 03:29 PM
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"We're not Goths, we're individuals, damn it!" tongue.gif

If I was going to have a label attatched to me for the rest of my life, I'd be happy for it to be goth. Most of the people I know who seem to be viewed as "goths" (and the majority of them are, admittedly, on matazone tongue.gif) seem to just be pretty normal people, from a range of backgrounds and with a range of tastes. I'm not gonna sit here and say I hate literature and art and poetry, but tbh, science and technology is definately more my style, so I don't know if that buggers up the statistics or what tongue.gif

And, for the record, I dress pretty hippy and happy most of the time. I only really wear black and collars and studs when I go out with my friends for an evening or whatever, that stuff just isn't practical most of the time. I don't cut myself (anymore), and I never did it just to seem more "goth". This set of factors would pretty much seem to sum up the other "goths" I know, also.

I wonder if the research took into account the apparent fact that a lot of people go through a "goth phase" whilst in their teenage years, when they're trying to find out who they are, for want of a better phrase. Just a thought - but would that show that the people who stay "goth" are really just the people who don't know or care about belonging to and impressing a group with a particular image? Along with the geeks and all the other social rejects tongue.gif

N.B. I know for a fact people have called Greeneyes a goth, and I've never seen big boots, chains and studs, or any other "goth" clothing on him. More's the pity tongue.gif He does wear black shirts though.

edit: eep, lots of sticking out tongues unsure.gif That was unintentional.


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bryden42
post Mar 25 2006, 03:45 PM
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Mata (as always) tells the truth here "there are no goths" even the goth father himself (Andrew Eldritch) proclaims that he is not a goth and despises the movement.


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Wyvern
post Mar 25 2006, 10:33 PM
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QUOTE
Rule one about goths: There is no such thing as a 'real goth'.

Rule two about goths: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'REAL GOTH'.

I still remain convinced by my friend's summary of Goth: 'There is no movement, there is no cause, we just all like big boots'. Like all definitions of goth, it isn't perfect, but it's a lot less flawed than all the other ones I've heard!


Damn I just cannot resist those BIG BOOTS shame on me and my easily distracted mind.

*dreams of really, really big boots*
happy.gif
QUOTE
As one of the Goths who adopted Wyvern (and that number is really adding up now) 

I really don't know what you mean madame are you trying to suggest that I'm all tame and adoptable or something? rolleyes.gif innocent.gif

I just love this place, its the only place I know were we can debate all lifes little details in such good company. To be honest I couldn't care less what Goth is or isn't or even if it exists. All I care about is that all the varied individuals I have met are fantastic, interesting and entertaining company. Surely at the end of the day thats all that matters.


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Museum Girl
post Mar 26 2006, 12:28 AM
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Oh man big boots, they're like pringles, you just can't stop!

Oh and speaking as a "goth" once people get to know me I really cannot shut up, so that's another thing against your 2 - 5 words thingy. In my expierience it is just about being smarter than average, having obscure hobbies and liking pretty things.
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Usurper MrTeapot
post Mar 26 2006, 01:34 AM
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I don't know what you're talking about. The only real Goths are 2 Century AD near-vikings who go around invading weak points in the Roman Empire.


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Tom
post Mar 26 2006, 11:12 AM
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What?^...
back to the topic.
well, i always thought that goths were people in all black big, silver, chains and they thought the world was going to end the next day. And i do think myself that i do wear to much black clothing, but i dont think im a goth but more of a Mosher.

I agree with mata, there are no REAL Goths, were i live theres about 5-11 goths in top Aggi, in bottom Aggi theres zilch, 0, none but in both top and bottom Aggi there is loads of stupid, poo head chavs! A nd i can tell you now that goths are smarter than chavs (i dont know why i started talking about chavs?).


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{Gothic Angel}
post Mar 26 2006, 04:07 PM
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QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Mar 26 2006, 12:28 AM)
Oh man big boots, they're like pringles, you just can't stop!

Once people get to know me I really cannot shut up.

In my expierience it is just about being smarter than average, having obscure hobbies and liking pretty things.


Seconded. And far better put than I ever could have done.

I also chatter when I'm nervous, and when I meet new people. You may have noticed tongue.gif

edit: Little_twit - the original "goths" were a tribe (?) of people who ransacked various parts of the Roman empire. Along with the visigoths, who they were also fighting, I believe. My ancient history is a little rusty tongue.gif


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Usurper MrTeapot
post Mar 26 2006, 04:59 PM
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Goths and Visigoths were the same but a schism happened and they eventually started fighting eachother when one of the groups was ruled by Attila.

Still no idea what you're talking about with these "Big Booted" Goths...were they post 5th Century AD or something? They remind me of these people I see sometimes, even was at one point but since they really couldn't be defined they remained nameless.


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"I am just a worthless liar, I am just an imbecile, I will only complicate you, trust in me and fall aswell."
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Tom
post Mar 26 2006, 05:33 PM
Post #24


Dont Worry, I Dont Know Where I Am Either!
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neat


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Izzy
post Mar 26 2006, 05:52 PM
Post #25


Germany > Spain...
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QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Mar 25 2006, 10:29 AM)
I don't cut myself (anymore), and I never did it just to seem more "goth".

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...How did you stop, it's like freaken addicting after you've started... sad.gif


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