IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 Forum Rules 
 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Pride - national, racial, sexuality etc
Moosh
post Sep 29 2008, 02:42 PM
Post #1


I plug directly into my computer
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,640
Joined: 18-November 04
From: Manchester
Member No.: 1,488
Gender: Male



Okay, so I was having this discussion (read: arguement) with a mate earlier, and I just wanted to get a few opinions and stuff from other people on it.

My position is, that it's ridiculous to be proud of something that you didn't "cause". I am British, beacuse I was born in Britain. Why is this something to be proud of? It was nothing to do with me, merely the accident of where my parents were at the time.

Similarly gay pride. Why? To me being "proud" of being gay makes as much sense as being proud of being 5' 10" or being proud of having brown eyes. It's not an achievement, it's just a fact of who you are.

I would say that you should feel proud of things you have done or said or influenced in some way, not things that you had no control over whatsoever.

Any thoughts?


--------------------
QUOTE (Peter Griffin)
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 29 2008, 02:58 PM
Post #2


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



I guess when people get told they are deviants and evil they sometimes want to feel good about themselves, and though the attributes(?) might not be a goal or whatever they've sough after and slaved for (heh) it not summit they want to be ashamed of. To think about where and what circumstances being proud to be a nationality or sexuality or what ever. Yeah, it'd be great if we all really didn't give a poo about all that equal ops forms question data stuff but people do, and people can be very mean to other people reasoning with it. So maybe when you get told your the scum of the earth, less than human, have some sort of mental disorder. Case in point: I've never to any harmful degree been picked on because I've size 8 feet, I have however had people really upset me and question why I had to be born to parent's who didn't share the same ethnicity. And on those days when I felt like shite, and started to assume most people thought these things about me when they met me it really can make a self esteem boost to be told that I should be proud of the mixed I have from my parents because not many people do- and more over not many people are aware of it. Blah blah blah.

A state of contentment and utalising what you have might be more 'the way', but just not how it works.


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moosh
post Sep 29 2008, 03:12 PM
Post #3


I plug directly into my computer
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,640
Joined: 18-November 04
From: Manchester
Member No.: 1,488
Gender: Male



I can see what you're saying frog, but I still don't think that pride is the right feeling for these things. I'm /happy/ that I'm mixed race, but I wouldn't say it was something that I was proud of, because it wasn't my doing. I don't know if I'm just being too hung up on the word here, but when people say "be proud of your ethnicity", I'm thinking "okay, feel positive about it, don't under any circumstances be ashamed of it, or feel bad because of it, don't feel inferior or superior to anyone because of it" but I just don't see pride fitting in there.

Maybe this is because I've been luckier than you in that I've never really had anyone have a problem with me being mixed race (probably beacuse it isn't that obvious to look at me, so you have to know me to know).


--------------------
QUOTE (Peter Griffin)
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 29 2008, 03:26 PM
Post #4


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



Okay, fair point. I think it words like this, as far as I am concerned: I feel -10 for being called whatever, someone tell me +10 dont be ashamed be proud you blahyadaetc. The pendulum swings and then one day x years later I am sitting there thinking, yeah - I'm cool. But to get out of that funk sometimes an equally opposite thing is needed. Prolly also comes down to exactly how you are defining pride. If we are going by the "satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements" definition, then sure- you are what yo uare- you got what you got. That you've an inordinatly large penis is nothing to be proud of- that you know how to use it to the satisfaction of you and your partner- is.


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daria
post Sep 29 2008, 09:47 PM
Post #5


Wait for the uprising
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,177
Joined: 7-April 05
From: In a cave in Scotland
Member No.: 1,735
Gender: Female



[22:41:27] <Becky> I think the thing that you're missing
[22:41:38] <Becky> is that you don't just have to be proud of what YOU do with YOUR life
[22:41:47] <Becky> you can be proud of other people
[22:42:11] <Becky> and so I guess that's how people can be proud to be gay, or proud to be British
[22:42:39] <Becky> Because you are glad that you are part of a clique that have done certain things
[22:42:43] <Becky> or act a certain way
[22:44:11] <Becky> although personally I would say that I am proud of what certain English people have done
[22:44:15] <Becky> I'm not proud to be English
[22:44:29] <Becky> because really, the English have done a whole LOAD of shitty shitty things
[22:45:00] <Becky> But then again, their contribution towards art and literature has been astounding
[22:45:05] <Becky> Not to mention science

I was told to post this and not just say it in IRC.


--------------------
We are unraveling our navels so that we may ingest the sun.

DARIA IZ GOOD ON TOAST

TOAST IZ GOOD ON DARIA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
vicrawr
post Sep 30 2008, 01:21 AM
Post #6



************

Group: Moderators
Posts: 1,767
Joined: 9-June 03
From: North Carolina
Member No.: 374
Gender: Male



So you should be proud of things you choose to be, but not things you have no choice in being?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 30 2008, 03:27 AM
Post #7


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



I can be proud of Daria having a firm arse?


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Witless
post Sep 30 2008, 11:53 AM
Post #8


happy.. sad.. happy
*********

Group: Established Members
Posts: 638
Joined: 11-December 04
From: London
Member No.: 1,536
Gender: Male



I feel like I should stop being such a lurkaholic, especially as I continue to go to meets on occasion.

I myself am proud of plenty of things I didn't have any control in. I am proud of my mum for raising me as a single parent and keeping a roof over my head.

I am proud of my friend that beat his agraphobia and moved far away to be with someone he cares about and is building a proper life for himself.

I am even proud of little minor things my friends and family do all the time.


I think there is room for in the definition pride for the pride you take in the accomplishments of people that mean something to yourself, even if you had no direct influence on those things.

For some people they stretch the phrase "people that are close to them" to including their whole ethnicity/sexual orientation/gender (hardcore spreading the love). When your own ethnicity (or etc..) has had a history of being put down and has pushed ahead despite that it, then it's quite an accomplishment. People feel pride in their race in the same way they feel proud of a friend or family member for accomplishing things.

It's not anything that's going to stop really. It's built into the human condition really. Football fans do it when their teams win. Fathers and mothers do it when their kids do well (regardless of if it was with their help or not (even absenty parents still somehow manage to feel proud of their kids)).
I think it's something to just live with about the human condition; we like being a part of things.

As to whether I am proud of my race.. hm. Nope, not really. I think race pride has a habit of glossing over the issues a race has. People get caught up with the phrase "that's just how we do things", then get overly sensitive when someone points out "well the way you do things is broken!" If people with an over flowing amount of pride in their race/nationality/gender were perhaps a little less defensive then perhaps I would feel a little more pride for things I happen to be aligned with.


--------------------
"I'm an introvert, I think you're wonderful and I like you, but please now shush"
"Science is just organised common sense"
"All generalizations are dangerous, even this one."
"You are unique, just like everybody else."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 30 2008, 11:55 AM
Post #9


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



Nicely put.


What exactly was said in this discussion/ argument? What were you feeling before this provocation to make a thread?


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mata
post Sep 30 2008, 12:43 PM
Post #10


'Trouble Down Pit' now online!
***************

Group: Admin
Posts: 10,158
Joined: 22-February 03
From: Southern UK
Member No.: 1
Gender: Male



While I see your point about only being proud of things you are responsible for, which would discount things such as nationality, I think it could be useful to look at the atonym of pride: shame. Would it be right to be ashamed of being gay? No, of course not, but some people in the world believe you should be.

Pride in things is such things usually a reaction to negativity. Ideally that negativity wouldn't exist, but it often does and so I can understand the need to counter it. In the perfect world there would be no need to be proud of things that you didn't cause, because there would be no shame associated with them, but in an effort to create that world the negative side of things needs to be balanced out.

(Which is horribly written, but I'm typing very fast on my lunchbreak! I hope you get what I'm aiming at.)


--------------------
Trouble Down Pit: Still updated every Monday and Friday
The Matazone Games blog
The Matazone Shop The Matazone Blog
The Matazone Corset Shop: Snobz corsets at 10% off their recommended price!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 30 2008, 04:00 PM
Post #11


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



Think you articulation was much cleaer than mine, and yours is what mine was getting at wink.gif


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moosh
post Sep 30 2008, 04:47 PM
Post #12


I plug directly into my computer
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,640
Joined: 18-November 04
From: Manchester
Member No.: 1,488
Gender: Male



QUOTE (various people)
You can be proud of other people/things other people do


I'm not sure about this. On the one hand, the feeling manifestly exists, but I still feel uncomfortable with that coming under the label of "pride". But that really just comes down to my own feeling of what the word is, which is clearly different to that of everyone else's.

QUOTE (Mata)
Pride in things is such things usually a reaction to negativity. Ideally that negativity wouldn't exist, but it often does and so I can understand the need to counter it. In the perfect world there would be no need to be proud of things that you didn't cause, because there would be no shame associated with them, but in an effort to create that world the negative side of things needs to be balanced out.


Again, it isn't that I object to this at all, it's the use of the word pride. This thread was inspired by me witnessing a couple of members of the lgbt society chastising another for "not showing enough Pride", as they didn't feel he was dressed "gay" enough. This pissed me off, as it's pretty damn intolerant to insist all gay people should dress alike, even if it's the gay people doing the insisting. However, that's an example of what Mata and frog were talking about, taken too far, in general what is done/said/felt in the name of pride is positive, and I don't dispute that. I would still restrict the /word/ to be for personal achievements/choices/actions, but I guess I'm in the minority here.


--------------------
QUOTE (Peter Griffin)
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Daria
post Sep 30 2008, 07:33 PM
Post #13


Wait for the uprising
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,177
Joined: 7-April 05
From: In a cave in Scotland
Member No.: 1,735
Gender: Female



Oh, well that has nothing to do with "pride". Those guys were just being jerks because someone wasn't dressed like them.


--------------------
We are unraveling our navels so that we may ingest the sun.

DARIA IZ GOOD ON TOAST

TOAST IZ GOOD ON DARIA
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
froggle-rock
post Sep 30 2008, 08:55 PM
Post #14


omno-ahhhhhhh!
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 2,129
Joined: 20-June 04
From: London, England.
Member No.: 1,174
Gender: Secret



QUOTE (funked)out_frog @ Sep 30 2008, 12:55 PM) *
What exactly was said in this discussion/ argument? What were you feeling before this provocation to make a thread?
- was for Moosh, also what's your definition of pride?

It's load of bollox being told/expected/ had a go at/ denounced/ told you are not really *blackwhitestaightgayfemalemalechristianyadayaddayadda* to dress a certain way to be proud/ represent your x/y/z. It's a really bollox attitude: putting your idea of the conventions of whatever onto someone else. I's just a way of being elitist and you can only be in our gang if you wear you school tie 4cm long and tucked into your shirt on Thursday for 4th period. So, to me sounds like your issue is really with them and how they are defining pride and how they are using it to be all clique and all that baloney. I hate twats like that. "Oh the world discriminates against us because we are just being who we were born as being true to ourselves, not denying what we are, and if your a gay you have to be a gay our way or else you are not being a real gay." Coz then they really are being narrominded fools. I do hope this guy didnt fall into the OH NOES I MUST BE A GAY LIKE THEM TO BE REAL GAY *frown*


--------------------
A society that takes itself too seriously risks bottling up its tensions and treating every example of irreverence as a threat to its existence. Humour is one of the great solvents of democracy. It permits the ambiguities and contradictions of public life to be articulated in non-violent forms. It promotes diversity. It enables a multitude of discontents to be expressed in a myriad of spontaneous ways. It is an elixir of constitutional health. J. Sachs in Laugh It Off Promotions CC v SAB International (Finance) BV t/a SabMark International (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2006 (1) SA 144 (CC)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nice_Cup_Of_Tea
post Oct 22 2008, 06:02 PM
Post #15


Advanced Member
***

Group: Established Members
Posts: 39
Joined: 18-October 08
From: Glorious English Countryside
Member No.: 15,040
Gender: Female



I myself tend to feel proud about things/situations that either I or people I know have achieved personally.

I do have admiration for those who have managed to end or try and block any sort of negative behaviour i.e slavery, sexism, abuse etc, no matter how that has been brought about.

I think it important to recognise such great achievements, but to feel proud for something you didn't personally take part in doesn't make an awful lot of sense of me.


--------------------
Shhhhh! Can you hear that? No? Neither can I.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
pgrmdave
post Oct 28 2008, 03:05 PM
Post #16


^random image of the day
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 1,841
Joined: 20-January 05
From: online
Member No.: 1,604
Gender: Male



QUOTE (CheeseMoose @ Sep 30 2008, 12:47 PM) *
This thread was inspired by me witnessing a couple of members of the lgbt society chastising another for "not showing enough Pride", as they didn't feel he was dressed "gay" enough. This pissed me off, as it's pretty damn intolerant to insist all gay people should dress alike, even if it's the gay people doing the insisting. However, that's an example of what Mata and frog were talking about, taken too far, in general what is done/said/felt in the name of pride is positive, and I don't dispute that. I would still restrict the /word/ to be for personal achievements/choices/actions, but I guess I'm in the minority here.


I suspect that there is good reason for the chastising, though I disagree with it. The opposite of pride, so far as I understand it, is shame, and in some instances, a lack of overt pride can be perceived as being ashamed of something. Homosexuality was considered shameful for a long, long time in western culture, and only recently has really begun to deal with that, so I'd assume that some people are afraid of the culture of shame returning and thus desire an over-abundance of overt pride.

When looked at as the opposite of shame, I think it is reasonable to be proud of your country/race/religion/family/etc, because I do not think that anybody should feel ashamed of what they are. All nations/races/religions have done great things, things that can and should make you proud - I think it is better to dwell on those as inspiration than to dwell on the shameful things as a warning.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moosh
post Oct 28 2008, 08:25 PM
Post #17


I plug directly into my computer
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 3,640
Joined: 18-November 04
From: Manchester
Member No.: 1,488
Gender: Male



QUOTE (pgrmdave @ Oct 28 2008, 03:05 PM) *
QUOTE (CheeseMoose @ Sep 30 2008, 12:47 PM) *
This thread was inspired by me witnessing a couple of members of the lgbt society chastising another for "not showing enough Pride", as they didn't feel he was dressed "gay" enough. This pissed me off, as it's pretty damn intolerant to insist all gay people should dress alike, even if it's the gay people doing the insisting. However, that's an example of what Mata and frog were talking about, taken too far, in general what is done/said/felt in the name of pride is positive, and I don't dispute that. I would still restrict the /word/ to be for personal achievements/choices/actions, but I guess I'm in the minority here.


I suspect that there is good reason for the chastising, though I disagree with it. The opposite of pride, so far as I understand it, is shame, and in some instances, a lack of overt pride can be perceived as being ashamed of something. Homosexuality was considered shameful for a long, long time in western culture, and only recently has really begun to deal with that, so I'd assume that some people are afraid of the culture of shame returning and thus desire an over-abundance of overt pride.

When looked at as the opposite of shame, I think it is reasonable to be proud of your country/race/religion/family/etc, because I do not think that anybody should feel ashamed of what they are. All nations/races/religions have done great things, things that can and should make you proud - I think it is better to dwell on those as inspiration than to dwell on the shameful things as a warning.


Why does pride or shame have to be a binary thing though? I wouldn't say I was proud of being asian, or British, or gay, but does this mean I'm ashamed of being any of them? No, of course not. I don't feel that you must be either proud or ashamed of something. Why can it not just be something about yourself, not to be proud or ashamed but just to be?


--------------------
QUOTE (Peter Griffin)
Math, my dear boy, is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aislinn Faye
post Nov 12 2008, 03:19 AM
Post #18


My cute little Aislinn!
**********

Group: Established Members
Posts: 849
Joined: 17-May 04
From: Yulee, Florida.
Member No.: 1,123
Gender: Female



Haha, now I'm all for gay rights (I voted No on number 2!---for you Brits that's Florida amendment to define marriage between a man and woman, which sadly passed), but I joked about organizing a "straight parade", because it does seem silly....but I mean, in the sense of national pride, I can see wanting to voice that...I mean you say you're British because that's where your mom was at the time, but British morales, culture, art, history shaped who you are today. I mean, I'm an American and I'm proud of that fact...it has shaped who I am to an extent, the fact that I was born and raised here, and I'm overall happy with the outcome of myself, and I have in part this country's influence to thank for that ( the laws of this country, the government ideal, the propaganda- in part) ...I hope I'm making sense...Yes, people should have a sense of pride of things they have no control over, such as country, (to an extent) because those things could have an effect on things that you do have control over (actions).


* BTW *- this is my satanic post! #666...dun dun dun....scary music...STAIRCASE OF SATAN!!! POND OF DEATH!!!


--------------------
"I can kill catering with a thought!" - Darth Vader
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yannick
post Nov 12 2008, 12:29 PM
Post #19


I could have written a short novel by this point
************

Group: Established Members
Posts: 1,583
Joined: 4-August 08
Member No.: 12,759
Gender: Secret



QUOTE (Aislinn Faye @ Nov 12 2008, 12:19 AM) *
Haha, now I'm all for gay rights (I voted No on number 2!---for you Brits that's Florida amendment to define marriage between a man and woman, which sadly passed), but I joked about organizing a "straight parade", because it does seem silly....

Just so you know, there's a protest at City Hall, 1:30 on Saturday. wink.gif (Orlando. I have no idea how far that is from Yulee.)


--------------------
Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget God. The stars died so that you could be here today. ~Lawrence Krauss
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mintyfish
post Nov 20 2008, 08:23 PM
Post #20


Member
**

Group: Established Members
Posts: 17
Joined: 14-November 08
From: Bagpipia
Member No.: 15,459
Gender: Secret



Not to get lost in semantics, but my dear friend the dictionary sayeth:
pride |prīd| noun
1 a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired : the team was bursting with pride after recording a sensational victory | a woman who takes great pride in her appearance.
• the consciousness of one's own dignity : he swallowed his pride and asked for help.
• the quality of having an excessively high opinion of oneself or one's importance : the sin of pride.
• a person or thing that is the object or source of a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction : the swimming pool is the pride of the community.
THE RIGHT WORD: If you take pride in yourself or your accomplishments, it means that you believe in your own worth, merit, or superiority—whether or not that belief is justified. -OED

What you're getting at, CheeseMoose, is definition (a), in which case you'd be totally correct and I agree; I know I didn't 'achieve' anything by being gay, nor do I think it's 'widely admired'. So there's that.

What I think some other people are getting at, though, is the 'consciousness of one's own dignity' or 'object of satisfaction'. In that sense, yes, I've marched in Pride Parades with the best of them. When it comes to something like being gay, or mixed-race, or whatever else, there's often a prevailing sentiment that this makes you worth less as a human being, and therefore asserting one's sense of dignity isn't incorrect, even if it's something you didn't 'achieve' yourself. It's believing in your 'worth' or 'merit'. It's not always justified. Sometimes people are indeed proud of appalling things, or take it too far. But that doesn't mean one can discount every sort of inclusive pride.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
leopold
post Nov 21 2008, 03:40 PM
Post #21


Roger Rabbit, having hit the skids, is now busking for a living.
**************

Group: Moderators
Posts: 8,647
Joined: 4-March 03
From: In front of the screen
Member No.: 95
Gender: Male



I just want to pick up on some of the comments made about "pride by proxy", as I'll call it. Taking pride in stuff that has nothing to do with you other than some terse association.

Having pride for one's country (or not) is very much dependent on how you look at the history of your nation. Yes, I could very easily look at Britain and say "God, what a hell hole of a place!" How can we be proud of a country that gave the world football hooliganism, binge drinking and chavs? How can we be happy with a nation that has an open door policy on immigration, panders to the bully-boy tactics of the US or the fact that we are the only democracy in the world with an unelected leader? But as Pgrmdave says, why dwell on the negative?

Well, okay, so what about the positives? The fact that Britain gave the world almost every sporting activity known to mankind? And that, of those it didn't, it inspired? How about the fact that, if Britain hadn't stood up to Germany on two separate occasions, every European would be speaking German and maybe killing Jews? Or the fact that it was Britons who discovered India, Australia and the Americas? (the latter by accident, but we'll forgive Columbus that one!) Or that Britain is still the motor racing capital of the world? Or that we're still an economic superpower, despite all the credit crunch nonsense? Or that we were the first to develop proper medical treatment and facilities AND provide it for free? Or that it's a hotbed of musical talent?

So, it's not all bad. And as Aislinn says, because of what Britain has achieved means that my family and I can live my life without fascist oppression, have a decent standard of living, be able to voice our opinions and know that, despite being a country which has long since had it's heyday, it can still mix it with its larger European peers. Britain may not be great anymore and there are other countries that give better opportunities, but it's still okay. Okay Britain.

But to move on to "associated pride" - taking pride in the achievements of others. Why not? I like to feel good about the achievements of those I care about. My wife gets a better job, my eldest daughter takes part in a parade with her Sea Cadet unit, my youngest daughter nails her maths test, my son hits a six in a cricket match... these are all things that make me proud. Not just proud of them, but proud for them and proud to be connected with them. But in these cases, I can feel like I've had an influence: Giving my wife encouragement, helping my kids with their homework and taking them to their activities, it's all about empowering them to grow and giving them room to do that. My pride in their achievements becomes pride in myself for being able to help them, even in a small way, to reach them.

I think, Cheesemoose, you are in the minority. Sorry, bud. Maybe you need to accentuate the positives in your life. Don't become the victim of your worst review.


--------------------
The author of this post is entirely fictional and is intended for entertainment purposes only. The views of the author are not necessarily representative of the views of Matazone, Mata himself nor any of his assorted cronies, friends, allies, associates or hangers-on. Any resemblance to other posts, alive or dead, is purely coincidental and is not intentional. Except when that's the point of the post, in which case it is intentional and no coincidence is applied, inferred or otherwise described by another long legalese term which temporarily escapes me.

No animals have been hurt in the production of this post, although I did kick the cat before I sat down at the computer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Witless
post Jun 11 2009, 03:19 PM
Post #22


happy.. sad.. happy
*********

Group: Established Members
Posts: 638
Joined: 11-December 04
From: London
Member No.: 1,536
Gender: Male



Uh oh. I am Necro posting. I really didn't want to start a new topic for this though. So please moddy people forgive me resurecting this topic from it's fresh grave.

I have been reading on the topic of genetics lately and doing some sitting on the underground grade ponderings along with it about definitions of race.

Lets start with a quote of a real definition of race within humans from the American Association of Physical Anthropoligists (or AAPA)

QUOTE
Biological differences between human beings reflect both hereditary factors and the influence of natural and social environments. In most cases, these differences are due to the interaction of both. The degree to which environment or heredity affects any particular trait varies greatly


So, your race is stuff about you you have gained through your genetic heritege, natural heritege and social heritege. Also to add another quote from the AAPA

QUOTE
There is great genetic diversity within all human populations. Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past.


I have been thinking lately that the scientific definition of race is fairly vague. At it's best it's handy for medical reasons to know someone's race. But even then, from personal experience. It seems like a fairly pointless question much of the time since if they need your medical history they have to ask you all the detailed questions anyway. Even if I am less likely to have a certain condition because of my background, they still ask me if my family have a history of it anyway, since merely being unlikely to have a condition doesn't mean they can rule it out.

Which leads me to my first point, where does a race magically begin. If something like my medical history can be clouded by doubt purely because genetically speaking the odd gene from pretty much anywhere in the world can have found it's way into my genetic makeup in humans long history. Genetic definition of race is weak. Handy for things on occasion. But it isn't a very good indicator for what makes up a person. Finding out the history of that person's actual family will always tell you exponentially more than merely knowing someones race.

To put it another more clear way. How much can you really define about anyone genetically by knowing whether someone is Indian, Causcasion, or Chinese? Probably not much. You can at best make a hastey guess. Plus usually have an idea what they might vaguelly look like. But it's not very helpful, which is why in the real world. It's not really all that useful a thing to know for scientific reasons. Better to just ask questions personal to the person and their families.


Race as a social thing is even more vague in my opinion. I am willing to acknowledge like such a thing exists as say Jewish culture and Black culture that will often have a close knit shared genetic heritege. But it's so vague, it's more a spectrum than a definable thing. Where does a child of Jewish parents brought up away from any Jewish influences fit into the system? I understand people's need for identity. People feel lost without the stability racial identity can bring at sometimes. It's why cultures form around so many things like music scenes, art scenes, even gaming geeks seem to be a new culture lately (all power to the gamer geeks).
But it often seems that any time people look at things in black and white terms eg. labelling someone as a particular race as a social descriptor, then it often destroys the identity of indivduals when it ironically is suppose to be the very thing that gives people identity.

When people hear what someone's race is, they can often (in both positive and negative ways) make a lot of assumptions about what must come with that. Using myself as an example. I often get what I assume is supposed to be a compliment, "Dave your my really cool black friend" or the even worse "you're really cool for a black friend" and the truelly facepalm worthy "I never imagined being attracted to a black guy". I am pretty sure it happens to all races, whether the majority or the minority in the culture their in. But off the top of my head I couldn't remember any good ones I have heard that would help make the point in this post I am trying to make.

Oh no wait, scrap that, I can think of one more (I'll leave the last paragraph as is to leave my thought process intact). My friend was talking about her friends new boyfriend from Dubai saying that he is really nice and treats her well, and is shocked that men like that can exist in Dubai (she says stuff like that a lot, arguing with is a painful and useless process.)

When people ask what I prefer to be called I always use the same phrase. "I prefer David or Dave". Half for the smile/laugh it gets, but half because it really is how I feel about it. It seems unhelpful to lump people together into groups meaninglessly. It's weird that it's to the point were people are sometimes afraid to use the colour of someone's skin as a physical descriptor because of the load of meanings that come with it at times. Bit of a shame too.

But to now knit this post into the topic. For me, national, racial and sexual pride feel a lot more meaningless. I understand how these things have come about. But I still personally find it a bit pointless really. I mean, really.. what does a random brick layer from Newcastle have in common with say, Shakespeare. Something that causes him to feel a kinship other than geographical location. Silliness I say.

Right sorry again for the necro-posty barely structured ramble.


--------------------
"I'm an introvert, I think you're wonderful and I like you, but please now shush"
"Science is just organised common sense"
"All generalizations are dangerous, even this one."
"You are unique, just like everybody else."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th April 2014 - 04:35 PM
Use these links if you're going to shop at Amazon and a percentage of what you spend goes towards helping this site!