Revised Pledge of Allegiance Options

[Yannick]

This is what my friends and I do in our spare time..

I'm personally trying to get this bull removed from our schools, by whatever means possible. Written by my friend Chris and I.

I pledge no allegiance to the flag of the Divided States of Embarrassment, and to the religion that stole the nation, 300 million people, under Fox News, with intolerance and bigotry for all.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/note.php...49&comments
http://the-fragged-mind.blogspot.com/2009/...allegiance.html

[Pikasyuu]

No one has yet pointed out why we actually do the pledge. We just do it because.. well.. we've always done it?

I'm not sure, but I assume morale during wartime. We're in a war now, but the state of affairs has changed a lot since the 1950's.

Having nothing better to do (though I can come up with lots of things) is not reason enough for the pledge to exist in schools.

Neither is time wasting an excuse to get rid of something when other things could fall under that category, but we've hashed that one out and come to a stalemate.

Whether you want to admit it or not, it does create awkward situations, like "Oh hey dude, why aren't you saying the pledge and wearing the no drugs bracelet and no sex ring?" "Uhh, I dunno dude, because I'm not." "But why?" "Just because."

..That's really a big negative against the pledge? People asking you questions about it? People ask questions about everything people do and don't do, the pledge being one of them should be a topic for discussion, not something you should avoid. Explain why, have this debate all over again, and consider the both of you more informed on the other's position afterwards. If anything, that argument implies that political discussion between peers should be discouraged, and I know you don't think that.

TEACH us why the pledge is important, why drugs are bad, why we should wait to have sex. Don't just get us to wear goofy little stickers and stuff, practically forcing us to sign/say pledges, making promises people pretty much aren't going to keep, but they're signing to fit in.

I don't remember middle school too well, but I do remember a history course and the reasoning behind the pledge involved. Do I remember what it was? Obviously not, otherwise I would have shared not for the sake of argument, but for the sake of letting everyone know what the government/school system's explanation is. I agree with it being discussed at home - see, that's so much more reasonable than 'it wastes my ten seconds' or 'it unfairly assumes I am allied with this country, even though I obviously live in it'. I also never remembered needing a political stance to 'fit in' except for directly after 9/11, but maybe schools have changed?

Hell, you can even have your little pledging circle announced on the news. Everyone's happy that way, I don't see what the big deal is.

Announced as in viewed? I hope not, because that's exactly the same, except that it's coming from a television or speaker.

Insults from a mod? Nice.

Which part did I insult you in, just so we're clear? I was making a point of imitating you and a couple of your comments, but at a slightly higher point. I never called you an idiot, I responded to the accusation that I can't follow your logic (which, occasionally, I can't - and it isn't simple logic, it's pretty confusing and backwards at times - see: entire issues forum. This is not an insult, it is an opinion.) by pointing out that these were things you had brought up and I was discussing. And here you go again, following 'insults from a mod?' with 'you once again failed to follow simple logic.' You can't really make me feel too guilty about my tone with you by punishing me..with the same tone.

Does that make sense to you _this_ time?

OMG NO I EM CLRLY NOT UNRSTANIN U MAKE IT SIMPLAR.
You tend to change your tone from post to post. You start with one implication, and when it is pointed out, jump to another until your extreme convictions turn to reasonable, softer logic. You might just be clarifying and I might be wrong, absolutely, but it sure would help my slow, less superior brain to understand if you just said that instead of implying that I'm an idiot because you constantly change your arguments. And like I said, I'm really not going to feel bad for being sarcastic with someone using sarcasm. Sorry, just can't find the care.

Oh, and as for my being a mod - I know you feel as though I 'target' you, but how am I using my status at all in this? Oh, I'm not. Your warn level goes up for cursing, not disagreeing with me. I'm debating with you. Do I hold a personal grudge against you? Absolutely not. Do I think a lot of your posts in this forum are misinformed? Definitely. Will I say so? 100%! Have I been wrong once or twice in this thread? Certainly. My opinion on the pledge has nothing to do with these posts. I am poking at your logic. If that's not okay for someone to disagree with or question you, you are once again imitating the thing that you hate.

And here, I'll touch the 'not comprehending' since you couldn't comprehend what I meant. I could compile a list of things I've written that you have ignored or not comprehended, but I don't feel the need to waste my time on it or point it out. I usually repeat myself for several posts and hold my breath until you notice it.

When did I say the "OMG, it is, chill!!!"? The meant to come off as "Omg, chill already, you couldn't be more off the mark that it's starting to annoy me, considering that's what 80% of your rebut of my argument is composed of." This. Is. Not. Based. On. Religion. Can you get that through your head? If you can't, which meh, I can somewhat understand given my history, then maaan, focus on other things. The only references I've made to religion would probably be the "Under God" and the analogy to prayer (I didn't reread. If you want to nitpick and point out other things, whatever. I'm sure they're innocent references as well.)

Did you notice the word like in reference to how I interpreted your response? No? It's there. I say it's rooted in religion, you respond 'But it isn't, let me list the ways', I say I still believe it is, this goes on, and you freak out (sorry, like freak out) about how, yes, you dislike religion, you're allowed to. I know you are. I was pointing out that there was a tie. You could have gone, 'yes there is' in the first place, and we would have skipped this. Here, let me try the punctuation thing. I. Know. Your. Primary. Reasoning. Is. Not. Religion. But. I. Am. Aware. It. Is. A. Part. Of. It. Better? Awesome.

definitely not a matter of opinion.

..But it is an opinion. It is my opinion. I don't think you ~*~hate~*~ America, I think that you think there are a lot of things wrong with it and have a strong disdain for the government. See? Opinion. I have formed mine, thus making it a matter of opinion.

Please see above where I point out I wasn't even really talking about theism, just relating comparable things because the pledge and prayer are really alike. If you can follow it, I mean.

Well, that clears up whether or not you could follow it. I wasn't referring to that portion, more the one where we whine at each other about how much religion/theism has to do with this. So, yes, I can follow it, but apparently the following wasn't mutual. I could make some more snarky comments here to help match the tone we've achieved, but as you pointed out, I'm a mod. Plus, crazymat made a good point. Did you read that post?

[Yannick]

I'm not sure, but I assume morale during wartime. We're in a war now, but the state of affairs has changed a lot since the 1950's.

We weren't in war when I was in kindergarten and first grade, and we were doing it then. (Just pointing that out. Not actually arguing.)

Neither is time wasting an excuse to get rid of something when other things could fall under that category, but we've hashed that one out and come to a stalemate.

[color=purple]Isn't it, though? Wouldn't it just make life a lot more productive to remove all the superfluous things and just do with what we need and want? I'm cool with getting rid of other time wasters, but the pledge still looks like a pretty good place to start.

..That's really a big negative against the pledge? People asking you questions about it? People ask questions about everything people do and don't do, the pledge being one of them should be a topic for discussion, not something you should avoid. Explain why, have this debate all over again, and consider the both of you more informed on the other's position afterwards. If anything, that argument implies that political discussion between peers should be discouraged, and I know you don't think that.

I meant that having the school side with one opinion, and then supporting the students that back it up, is just sorta.. unfair. I know it sounds like a stupid point. Questions like that are cool to answer on an individual basis, but it sort of feels like the school is making it easy to pin-point the kids that disagree (unintentionally, of course), and then those kids get bombarded with a whole bunch of questions about their nonconformity. I'll gladly explain my opinion about pretty much anything to someone who asks, but having like 30 people come up to you and ask you the same thing gets tiresome. (Also sorta goes along with the waste of time thing.) So yeah, debating among peers, awesome. Having the school set the accepted standard for highly controversial issues and expecting the students to back it up = not so cool.

I also never remembered needing a political stance to 'fit in' except for directly after 9/11, but maybe schools have changed?

Not so much liberal vs. conservative stuff (but oh man do some people get way too into that.), but whether or not you agree with certain things the school promotes. Honestly, all the anti-drug campaigning is probably the biggest example of that (and hey, it's red ribbon week..) . Personally, I don't care what you do, as long as you don't hurt someone else. If you mess up your body entirely, you have that choice, but meh, you're sort of an idiot for doing so. A lot of people are "Noooo. That stuff is BAD for you. If you do that I'm not talking to you." I wouldn't really care to hang-out with someone like that, but.. it causes problems. And yeah, I realize I'm sorta off topic, just sorta explaining your point. There's also a huge "Obama is awesome" "No, Obama's a stupid socialist and the anti-Christ, and he's going to mess everything up!" epidemic going on right now. Not helped by the Fox News thing.

Announced as in viewed? I hope not, because that's exactly the same, except that it's coming from a television or speaker.

Announced as in "Attention students, for those interested, <name of whatever they decide to call it> will be meeting at <time> to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning beginning <date>. Everyone is welcome." and maybe play that for like a week.

Which part did I insult you in, just so we're clear?

since we all know you're the master at these and always win.

(Okay, I reread the thread. Yeah, I see I started it. Sorry..)

You tend to change your tone from post to post. You start with one implication, and when it is pointed out, jump to another until your extreme convictions turn to reasonable, softer logic.

As long as we get there..

Oh, and as for my being a mod - I know you feel as though I 'target' you, but how am I using my status at all in this?

I don't feel as if you're targeting me. You disagree, naturally, making this fun. Yeah, sorry, no, I seriously did think you started with the whole "following my logic" deal, and I reread to quote you exactly where you did and.. haha.. I started it. >_> So never mind. I was going to say something along the lines of "Well, as a mod, it wouldn't kill you to set a better example" but yeah, never mind.

Did you notice the word like in reference to how I interpreted your response? No? It's there.

What? Okay, this time I seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

I say it's rooted in religion, you respond 'But it isn't, let me list the ways', I say I still believe it is, this goes on, and you freak out (sorry, like freak out) about how, yes, you dislike religion, you're allowed to. I know you are. I was pointing out that there was a tie. You could have gone, 'yes there is' in the first place, and we would have skipped this. Here, let me try the punctuation thing. I. Know. Your. Primary. Reasoning. Is. Not. Religion. But. I. Am. Aware. It. Is. A. Part. Of. It. Better? Awesome.

No, not better. What? Primary reasoning not religion. Got that. How is it still part of that? Can you like quote and bold where you're getting this idea from? Please? I'm lost.

Okay, three things. While replying to this I somehow missed the 3:06 (uh.. 1:06 your time?) post and will read that after this, possibly respond, time allowing.
Two, if this goes on much longer, I'm going to have to drop out. It works now because I have exams and practically no homework, but when real school starts again, I won't have the time. It doesn't help that NaNoWriMo is next month, either.
Three, okay, if you agree (or, I think you do?) that the pledge shouldn't be in schools... Do you want to actually help improve my argument/think up one of your own, so we actually get somewhere instead of internet-fighting each other, taking up a crapton of time and accomplishing nothing?