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> Aaaargh, Bluggin Fluggin Paypal!, They've annoyed me a bit.
Mata
post Aug 5 2003, 09:40 AM
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I run my shop through PayPal.

About three months ago I got told that a payment for three t-shirts had been reversed and that I needed to provide tracking information to prove that the parcel had gone where it should and that it was sent on time.

Now, if I was using someone that provides tracking information for every parcel I'd be charging about $20 for shipping not $5, so instead I produced the receipt that proved the parcel was sent within 24 hours of the order to the address stated (and the address had been confirmed as real by PayPal themselves). This evidence would stand up in a UK court of law.

I fax this to their single fax number, clearly marked for the correct department. Actually I try to fax it, find out I've been told the wrong number by the PayPal operator in the US, make another transatlantic phonecall, get the right number and send it. Fine. This costs a few pounds but okay, I can live with that.

I wait a few days and email them because I requested that they confirm receiving the data and hadn't received that yet. They tell me that they haven't had it and insinunate that I didn't send it in the first place.

Riiiiiight.

Okay, so I decide to send, recorded delivery and clearly labelled for the correct department, a copy of the proof of postage and evidence that I faxed the proof when I said I did. This costs quite a few more pounds (international recorded delivery is expensive) but I figure it's worth it, the parcel I sent had three t-shirts in it and therefore represents a fair amount of my weekly shop sales.

I wait a couple of weeks.

No confirmation arrives from PayPal that they have received my proof.

I phone them. They deny all knowledge of having got the proof. Again.

So I phone the Royal Mail, because I sent the evidence recorded delivery they have records to show how it travelled. They confirm it reached the US within twelve hours of leaving my hands and say it will take up to two weeks to confirm it arrived and was signed for at PayPal.

Two weeks... That's a long time... But I can wait. I need that proof to show PayPal that they have lost my evidence again.

The NEXT DAY (now that's what I call service) I get a letter from the Royal Mail confirming that PayPal have had my evidence for over a week.

Later that day I get an email from PayPal saying 'We have received your fax and will be disputing the claim on your behalf. Please wait 75 days before contacting us about this dispute.'

Hmmm... So, did they ever get the letter I sent? Was it just the fax that had eventually filtered through to the right office or maybe they meant the copy of the fax I enclosed in the letter to prove I'd sent it? Who knows? By this point I didn't care, they had my evidence and that was fine.

A couple of months pass...

I get an email after about 50 days saying:

>Unfortunately, PayPal has received notification that
>our dispute of the reversal of the following transaction
>was declined:
<deatils>
>At this time we recommend you contact the buyer directly
>to attempt to resolve the matter or
>recover your merchandise.

Uh-huh... Interesting. Okay, I can accept that. It annoys me but I can accept it.

It might be worth mentioning that PayPal have charged ME ten dollars for the priveledge of them taking my money away.

I've not got much hope left at this point, I figure that the customer has tried to scam me by denying they ever received the goods and claiming their money back. So I send her an email...

A day later I get a very interesting message back:

>I am so sorry that you got dragged into this. I never contacted you
>concerning the problem because it was supposed to be taken care of
>without ever involving you. A few days before Apr 26, some one cloned
>my credit card number and made several unauthorized charges. My
>credit card company made the mistake of cancelling all charges made
>after Apr 17, even though I had told them that your charge was
>authorized and sent them a copy of the invoice to ensure that they
>didn't send our transaction to the Fraud dept. I've been working with
>them to settle it out and didn't realize that they had taken any
>action on your part. The last correspondence I received informed me
>that it had been taken care of and the charge from Matazone had been
>honored on my credit card account...

So basically the credit card company has approved the payment.

PayPal has my money. And has charged me ten dollars for something that was not my mistake.

At the same time as emailing the customer I emailed PayPal asking if they could give me more details about the nature of the complaint the customer had made so I stand a better chance of getting my goods back. A few hours after the customer gets back to me I get an email from PayPal with no details and saying this:

>We will continue to dispute this chargeback on your behalf. Like
>previously stated, please allow us up to 75 days. I thank you for your
>patience in advance.

Hang on... They just told me that the dispute was resolved... So they're still disputing it?

Another email is sent to PayPal with the customer's response in it. I now have this response from them:

>We were unable to dispute the chargeback on your behalf

So did they or didn't they dispute the bluggin' claim? What was taking them 75 days to do if they didn't dispute it?

Furthermore they say:

>The chargeback was won in the buyers
>favor, so please contact the buyer directly to request reimbursement.

The customer has already been charged the money from her credit card account (so her bank tells her) and so PayPal have the money already and I'm not about to go and ask her to pay twice for something and that still wouldn't get me back the money that PayPal has charged me.

Aaaaaargh!

Their phonelines open in another hour and a quarter but I felt I should write all this out here so I don't rant too much at the poor individual on the end of the line that has to try and placate me a bit.

I think I should be invoicing them for my time too but there's no chance of that working!

Thanks for reading. You can now go back to your normal schedule of random stuff.


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Pixelgoth
post Aug 5 2003, 09:49 AM
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My GOD that's annoying!!!!!

I have had similar problems with Powergen and Telewest in the past. Not to mention British Gas. It's like the companies are run by a bunch of monkeys.....stupid monkeys at that....monkeys in a company with no internal communication system....GAH!!! It makes me soooooo mad mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif

I feel your pain and frustration and I sincerely hope it all gets sorted out! *big hugs*

I work in a mail order company and I ALWAYS try and resolve complaints quickly and efficiently with the maximum amount of arse licking that I think it deserves. Some people are just rude when they complain and they go STRAIGHT to the bottom of the pile but genuine ones are dealt with speedily.

Have said that, I don't get many complaints......must be good at my job after all *looks bemused*

Can you use anyone other than PayPal? Is it too expensive just to get people to give you card details using an on-line server? What about getting a card terminal in-house?

Sam
x


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WeeJ
post Aug 5 2003, 09:52 AM
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how very sucky.

Are you going to consider sales through another company now?


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hinsley
post Aug 5 2003, 09:54 AM
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*kicks paypal* *hugs Mata*


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Mata
post Aug 5 2003, 10:10 AM
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I've looked into other transaction service providers and while they do cost money it will be worth it. This is the first time I have had a disputed payment like this and the absolute lack of co-ordination and respect for me as their client is entirely responsible for my desire to move to another company. I've been treated consistently like I am in the wrong and I'm not happy with that at all.

Other options are initially expensive but will pay for themselves over time. The really expensive bit is getting shop software that works with other people's payment methods, so I've asked a friend if he could code something up for me. My first request was that he make something that would enable me to charge for downloads of screensavers and wallpapers (ie. to try and get a couple of dollars from visitors that way instead of asking for donations. I'll also send them out free to everyone who has donated so far to my site when I launch it which only seems fair) but he's got a bit carried away.

It's taking a long time to make and may still take a long time yet but apparently, when it's finished, it's going to be just about the most kick-arse multi-purpose shop system ever built. Woo hoo! It'll do the downloads, sell stuff, go direct to banks for authorisation, tap-dance, make cups of tea... You name it...

Until then I've got to stick with PayPal though... 40 minutes 'til I can phone them...


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WeeJ
post Aug 5 2003, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Aug 5 2003, 11:10 AM)
Until then I've got to stick with PayPal though... 40 minutes 'til I can phone them...

Give them a verbal smackdown. There's nothing more annoying than crappy service :/


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Mr Fuzzy
post Aug 5 2003, 10:31 AM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Aug 5 2003, 12:10 PM)
It's taking a long time to make and may still take a long time yet but apparently, when it's finished, it's going to be just about the most kick-arse multi-purpose shop system ever built. Woo hoo! It'll do the downloads, sell stuff, go direct to banks for authorisation, tap-dance, make cups of tea... You name it...

Dan? Carried away? Never...

Last I heard he was adding a feature to let you control the worlds nuclear arsenals (in 80s style graphics) and play chess...

Keep a little hellfire in reserve for the phone call. It adds a tone of menace to anything you say beforehand. A fearfull customer service bod bounces you up the chain faster in my experience.


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Mata
post Aug 5 2003, 10:35 AM
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Nah, I'm not about to try to be nasty to the person on the phone. After all, it's not directly that induhvidual's fault but I will certainly let them know that I'm annoyed.

I think the inferface for the new shop will only come online if you have a vast NASA style control room and then it will say something like 'Hello Joshua, would you like to play a game?'


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Mr Fuzzy
post Aug 5 2003, 10:41 AM
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That sounds about right. Unfortunately he's got a bit mixed up with his subroutines, and that happens when you want to buy a t shirt. Also the chess option hasn't been implemented yet. Armageddon for all I'm afraid. ph34r.gif

Oh, and I wasn't suggesting you be nasty to them. Just that you keep an edge to your voice that suggests you could be nasty if you felt the need. Hence the old school dread...


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WeeJ
post Aug 5 2003, 10:48 AM
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don't utter those god forsaken words..."let me speak to your manager" ph34r.gif


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Mata
post Aug 5 2003, 11:19 AM
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Apparently now the customer has to phone PayPal and tell them to accept the payment. Bwha? Ah well, let's hope this works!


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Pixelgoth
post Aug 5 2003, 11:59 AM
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Global Thermonucleur war!!! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif I LOVE that film. Matthew Broderick was sooo cute in a kinda geeky way biggrin.gif

Sorry....off topic there....you go get em Mata! I know it's hard not to shoot the first person you speak to but they are used to it and realise it's part of the job but it's nice you are going to be considerate.....to a certain extent wink.gif I find it VERY hard not to have a go at the customer services people but Fuzzy is right, fear is good! smile.gif

Sam


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TigerLily013
post Aug 5 2003, 02:05 PM
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Well, thank god I don't use Paypal or anything you guys mentioned as utterly annoying like that...well except Execulink at times when its buggering up really bad (Yes I have dial-up tongue.gif) but even so it doesn't sound as bad compared to the shite you Maa had mentioned. I hope that phone call went okay.


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Sir Psycho Sexy
post Aug 5 2003, 03:29 PM
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QUOTE (WeeJ @ Aug 5 2003, 11:48 AM)
don't utter those god forsaken words..."let me speak to your manager" ph34r.gif

people have done that all the time to me....manager always takes my side though biggrin.gif

anyway, paypal sound like bad people, bill bryson complains about american companies like that, AT&T being his "favorite" but i think mata's found a new winner laugh.gif


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Jonman
post Aug 5 2003, 04:04 PM
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I've heard many many bad things about Paypal and their cak-handedness. It seems that when they work (which to be fair is the vast majority of the time), they're great, but as soon as anything goes wrong (that one in a million times), they're completely arse.

Thank the lord for corporations, eh?


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porcelainwarrior
post Aug 5 2003, 04:08 PM
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gah ... this may be a little late but go kick them in the head! with a brick tied to your dainty foot tongue.gif

and i hope you realise that youve now put me off using the damn service ... and i just got permission to use my stepdads credit card tongue.gif gah ...


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Jonman
post Aug 5 2003, 04:39 PM
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Actually, in all seriousness, write them a snotty letter (on real paper), address it to the Head of Customer Services, or better still, the Head of Quality, and tell them how disappointed in their service you are, and all the things that they did wrong. Any corporation that size (especially in the states) ought to have a sizable Quality Department, which, if it's like Quality everywhere else in the world, will be looking for precisely that kind of shortfall in company procedures to make better. And they're usually tenacious buggers, QA folks. If nothing else, it may lead to an improvement in their response in future.

As an aside, every time I've written a snotty letter to a company that's pissed me off, they've apologised profusely, sorted me right out and given me money back and other goodness.


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CommieBastard
post Aug 5 2003, 04:46 PM
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Bloody hell, Mata. Hope you get everything sorted out, because when I actually have money I want some shirts.


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CrissiLove
post Aug 5 2003, 05:08 PM
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ugh..... sad.gif they put you through a lot of trouble. I hope that it all gets sorted out and you get all your money back!
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Prince Aries
post Aug 5 2003, 08:40 PM
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This sounds a LOT like AT&T and MCI customer service. In fact, for a moment I forgot it was Mata talking about Paypal and I started remembering what it was like working for those slime.

Jonman's right. Letter writing directed at someone up above can usually help. Or they can do the MCI thing and place those directly in a trash bin, because that's what they did.

I've been using Paypal relatively infrequently for the last few years, but hearing what Mata has to say it's obvious there's a big problem with communication on their end. Clearly, they're not leaving notation on the accounts involved to keep track of what's been sent in and when and what's happened when. That's something almost ALL Customer Service does. Notation. Very important. Bastards. The lot of them.

Good luck to you, Mata. Kick them effin hard won't ya? happy.gif


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leopold
post Aug 5 2003, 09:38 PM
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Gah! Typical corporate bollocks, is this... Had the same probs wi the AA, British Gas, Powergen and Sky...

The last one I had was a big dispute over a second Sky box that I had fer two months before they told me "They are not connected to the same phone line, this is a breach of the terms and conditions blah blah correct it or you pay for two separate connections." After three months of buggering about on the telephone, explaining my number is ex-directory and CLID blocked, doin various tests, tellin them they can send an engineer round to check it out, bein told FOUR times it was okay an I wouldn't be charged... THEN they feckin charge me!! Only then do I get the problem sorted, but this was after I told the poor chick on the phone that "I'm not gonna be passed around any more, YOU are gonna sort this for me!" I also threw in that I hadn't broken their T&Cs, that they had three months to verify what I was tellin them, to no avail, an that any charge levied would result in me lookin fer legal recourse as THEY would be breakin the contract!

*sigh*

Corporations an communication are mutually exclusive. I work fer a big corporation meself, an most people have little idea what's goin on...


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Mingtea
post Aug 5 2003, 10:36 PM
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We've looked into some proper merchants, I can get you some details if you like.

I've never really had any good experience with paypal it all seems like a bodge to me.


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CommieBastard
post Aug 5 2003, 10:58 PM
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On this topic, this is the text of a fortune I got in my fortune cookie today:
"British Telecom has made a mistake, you will get a rebate."

We'll be lucky...


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Pixelgoth
post Aug 6 2003, 10:03 AM
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QUOTE (leopold @ Aug 5 2003, 10:38 PM)
Had the same probs wi.......British Gas, Powergen.....

Ah not you an' all! What did they do to you? They just keep mucking up my bills and charging me incorrectly and p**sing me off basically mad.gif. All started when no one told British Gas (my previous electric supplier) that Yorkshire Electricity Board had replaced my meter about 3 years ago (well before I even bought the flat). This then resulted in them thinking I was giving them incorrect readings as the readings were all differently lined up or something. Anyhoo, both British Gas and Powergen knew this and not one of them said anyhing until I got a bill for 500 from BG saying that I owed them this because my meter readings had been faulty ohmy.gif mad.gif

Needless to say, I rang, spoke to a pleb and then spoke to the manager who was very helpful......at first dry.gif ......after a few weeks the communication broke down again but they cancelled the 500 bill BTW...PHEW!

GAH! Anyhoo, all sorted now but it's taken both companies 6 months of saying "you sort it out, no YOU sort it out, no YOU sort it out" to each other! rolleyes.gif

OK rant over smile.gif

And back on topic....did you get it sorted Mata?

Sam
x


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