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> Remember, never forget
Dreams On Hiatus
post May 31 2004, 07:29 PM
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Okay I know y'all probably got a million 'remember 9/11' emails, but my boyfriend sent me this and I just had to pass it on to you guys too. I sent this to Spiffy and Ri already. You don't have to check it out, but I think you should...


The Blood of the Heroes


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FurryMammal
post May 31 2004, 08:30 PM
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Eugh, that was crap. Just showing the "You're either one of us or out of the country" attitude America has. It made my blood boil for many reasons.

Cheesy overtunes though smile.gif


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CommieBastard
post May 31 2004, 08:53 PM
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I quit after a couple of minutes, it took too long to get to the Goddamn point. Liked the music though; I kind of expected stormtroopers to charge on.

Was I the only one who wasn't so worked up about 11/9? I mean, yeah, it was horrible, I'm not saying 2,800 deaths isn't a bad thing - but twelve times that many children die every single day from starvation, while enough food is produced to feed many times the population of the Earth. Worse things than 11/9 happen pretty frequently.


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Spacehappy
post May 31 2004, 09:21 PM
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QUOTE (CommieBastard @ May 31 2004, 08:52 PM)
Was I the only one who wasn't so worked up about 11/9? I mean, yeah, it was horrible, I'm not saying 2,800 deaths isn't a bad thing - but twelve times that many children die every single day from starvation, while enough food is produced to feed many times the population of the Earth. Worse things than 11/9 happen pretty frequently.

No Commie your are no the only one. But as it happened on American soil then the world must know ..... and they are going to tell us all the time. Pity they ignored the thing's the IRA did to us (hell half of Boston even paid for it). But there we go that's the attitude of some people. It's a pity they expect us to cry over it ....... The funny thing is they would not give a shit if it happened in another country.
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Snugglebum the D...
post May 31 2004, 10:01 PM
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Agreed with both Commie and Spacehappy here. Not that it wasn't an absolute abomination, don't get me wrong, but I'm as shocked at other things that happen in the world every single day.


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Patient #212
post May 31 2004, 10:19 PM
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It wasn't the worst I've seen. But there were still things that really bothered me about it. Well, first, I just couldn't relate to the patriotic sentiments. Also, it was like it was trying to make me feel guilty that I didn't suffer more. Telling me that I am those people jumping to their deaths that this or that person is my sister or husband and shouldn't I feel terrible? Also, it continually asked "Have you forgotten?" in an accusatory tone. No. You don't forget something like that, but why are we dwelling on it over two years later?

When it happened and I kept seeing the footage on the news I naturally thought "Oh god, that's horrible" and I felt really bad for all victims and angry that such senseless things happen. But when, months and months later, the OBSESSION was still EVERYWHERE and people were hanging "9/11" posters in convenience stores and spamming the hell out of my e-mail account with soppy dedictations and putting "Remember" bumber stickers on their cars I started to feel that there was an unhealthy focus on the whole thing. I'm not going to forget. Why do you keep telling me to remember?

And you're all right. If that had happened anywhere else it wouldn't have been made into such a monstrous thing. Yes, it was really awful. But I never saw why I should be MORE upset because it was America than I would be if it was, say, Japan. Thousands of lives. Yes, they were American. Are those lives more valuable than anyone elses?

I wrote an essay on this not long ago. It all focused around a quote by Confucius: "Mourning should express grief and stop at that."


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gothictheysay
post Jun 1 2004, 01:03 AM
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I like the way it was done. I mostly agree with everything said above, but it was such a shock to most of America. The shock factor figures in heavily, I can tell you that. One thing I didn't like was that they kept saying that all these people died for us. That always confuses me. How did their death help us? I got shocked by some of the pictures - now I'm dwelling in that scared sort of mood. I'd seen most of them, just the bloody woman and the one jumping they took of the other woman all alone. If there were a few things tweaked here and there I would really like it.


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Mata
post Jun 1 2004, 01:26 AM
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Just a quick mod-esque note before I move on: Try not to make this sound like a US-bashing thread please. I know that the general US attitude can seem very arrogant, but for a lot of people in the US the idea of terrorism actually happening in the civilised world was unthinkable to them. Just because they were naive it doesn't mean that their shock is any the less terrible for them.

Actually, I think that's pretty much my point really. One more thing though, it's amazing what patriotism can do to people. They get patriotic when a terrorist group attacks their country, but then demonise Iraqi's that were loyal to Saddam Hussein, most of whom were not evil torturers, just guys doing a job. Patriotism should be thrown out of the window and understanding brought in instead. If the US understood why Al Qaida felt that the only way of getting their message across was to destroy thousands of lives then maybe the Sept 11th attack wouldn't have happened... Maybe. Or perhaps I'm just an optimistic fool.


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spiffilicious05
post Jun 1 2004, 01:30 AM
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I'll be the first in admitting that I feel that America's gov't is pompous and arrogant and needs to fix it's atittitude. But I won't say that september 11th wasn't a huge deal. For christ sake -- all of you who say that you've seen bigger things -- imagine living in somewhat of a fairytale world that your gov't has created for you -telling you that yoursafe and then looking up in the sky and seeing smoke even as far as half way accross the state.

I live in central ny and I still remember looking up and seeing the smoke from NYC over four hours away. Sitting in class watching ppl burn alive and jumping to their deaths. I remember the school being completely silent. Just picture seeing one of your teachers tear up and run out of the room because her son was supposed to be in that building and she couldn't get a hold of him. Until you've lived through such a dramatic change on your outlook of life you can't say that this wasn't huge. Granted there are thousands of people who die everyday of starvation - but there are also ppl like yourselves trying to do something to change that.

A particular friend of mine had a fiance in the towers when they crashed. He was supposed to marry her the month after 9/11. I know ppl who are being killed in the war (that I find appauling and hate and think we should just but out of).

Not all of America is like that, many people are - but many people aren't. When the US was so mad at France for them not joining our side I got mad at the US and went through the halls bitching about it. We can't help our government officials and what we've been subjected to believe.

Anyways my point is no matter how you look at September 11th it was a horrid inexplicable event. Not anymore horrid that thousands of children dying everyday - but not anyless either.


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Dreams On Hiatus
post Jun 1 2004, 01:38 AM
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Ditto to Spiffy's comment.


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gothictheysay
post Jun 1 2004, 01:44 AM
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amen teh spiff amen...

I can honestly say we were scared. helicopters floated above our school...it could've been us! we're only an hour away from chicago! I mean, chicago! ><


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Phyllis
post Jun 3 2004, 11:37 PM
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Urrghh. I also stopped watching it, because I didn't care for the constant "Have you forgotten?" message.

It was a big deal for me personally when it happened, just because I'd lived in NYC the previous year and my husband's family was all in NYC. I thought it was horrible, but I also realized that there are a lot of worse things that happen all over the world every single day. And by the time it was about 2 or 3 months past 9/11, I was honestly tired of hearing about it. At that point, it was still on our news almost 24/7. I can understand an update now and then at that point if they found something significant..but good lord. I think that the media's treatment of it just served to make a lot of people desensitized to the whole event...to the point where a lot of people just said outright that they were sick of hearing about it.

Yes, it was a shock to Americans, because many of us didn't think it could happen here. But it's over. We should learn from history, but there's a big difference between learning and dwelling in the past.


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Cthulhu
post Jun 4 2004, 05:55 AM
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Just so you guys know. The man you may or may not have seen jump to his death from the second tower, he was a friend of mine.

I was there and helped to pull bodies out of the rubble. You weren't.

The attack was a VERY big deal because it was an attack on a place that not just Americans but most of the world though was safe and one of the last places that something like this would have happened.

Mata, your comment about Americans being naive was an uneducated and ignorant bit of bigotry on your part. We do know full well what's going on in every other part of the world. Lest you forget, this country is comprised of peoples from everywhere in the world and many still have families in other parts of the world. We know what the heck is going on, we aren't stupid or naive. You non-Americans all too often like to confuse Americans with whoever is sitting in the Oval Office at the moment. Espically when you don't like that person. You paint us all as being that person. We aren't. It's arrogant and rude of you to believe that. And that's the picture most Americans have of Europeans because of comments like these, that you are arrogant, rude and constantly want to try to pull us down or make us look bad in the world view.

Your constant holier-than-thou attitude is more than just a little disgusting. It's enough to make any American want to turn "Ugly" against Europeans. Think for a moment how you'd like it if people were talking like this about, oh, say the British? I mean, we could probably find a large group of individuals who could go on and on about many bad points about England, its system of government, its people, etc. That group could make broad, sweeping generalizations like your naive comment. Like we could say "All Brits are Monarchy worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene". If enough people started making those statements, well darn, people might actually start to believe them.

Hmm, maybe I should have found a generalization that wasn't quite so true.


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Mata
post Jun 4 2004, 11:03 AM
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Cthulu, you manage to contradict yourself.

First you state that Americans are not nave.

Then you state that your country believed the World Trade Center to be safe.

To believe that your country was safe and immune from terrorism sounds extremely nave to me, especially in a location that represented US domination as powerfully as the WTC.

I remember being a child and my parents trying to decide whether to go shopping in London at Christmas. The reason they were having trouble deciding was that they were aware that London was a terrorist target because it was the seat of power in the UK and that we had been under constant attack from the IRA for many years.

You may notice that my original post was actually trying to stop people from being down on the US, but then you accuse me of being bigoted. I am certainly not judging all Americans on their President, and I am equally certainly not judging all Americans on the actions of a few who support armed action against governments they disagree with.

I notice that elsewhere you support the idea of militias rising up against your own government. You realise of course that an armed group attempting to change government policy by force these days will always be called a group of terrorists?

If you read my original post again you will notice that I use the term 'a lot of', this is significantly different from 'most' or 'all'. I don't think that all Americans are nave, but you yourself have shown yourself to be among that group by saying that you thought the World Trade Center was safe.

Let's not forget that this wasn't even the first time that the World Trade Center had been the target of a terrorist attack, remember this?

http://www.emporis.com/en/bu/sk/wt/up/cb/

QUOTE
Nave: (a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgement.


The WTC had been the target of terrorism before, but you believed it to be safe. You even state that you thought it was the last place it would happen, despite there having been an attack there before.That is shows either a lack of wisdom or a gross failing of your judgement, either way you are the dictionary definition of nave. Many people in the US were not, but you have shown that you were.

I didn't call the citizens of the US stupid, and neither would I do so. There is enough evidence on these boards already to the contrary, despite the fact that I don't believe it is possible to summarise an entire nation with one phrase, which is why you will see me use terms like 'a lot of'. I also never called Americans uneducated.

Read people's posts properly before calling them a bigot in future.

And your statement "All Brits are Monarchy worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene" is probably true of a lot of people in the UK. By stating that you believe that to be an accurate description of all of the UK you are also showing yourself to be bigoted.

It would seem you believe that I think Americans are stupid, ignorant, and uneducated. You will not find me having said this anywhere, on these boards or elsewhere in my entire life.

You will find me say that I believe that there is a system of deluding the public in action in the US media that attempts to affirm that Americans are somehow immune from world issues, but this is the media, and I believe that this is a result of the president's views. I do not believe that the media always reflects the people, but I do believe that many people reflect the media, it happens too often in my country to think that it doesn't happen in yours. People are basically alike in their natures, no matter what country they come from, which equally means I could say that there are probably many in the US who are "Presidency worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene" because this is a stereotype of your citizens in the deep south. Just look at Kleetus (sp?) in The Simpsons! That's the great thing about living in a democracy, we have all kinds of people and they live up to all kinds of stereotypes constantly, as well as defeating them.

If it's holier-than-thou to believe that Americans who thought that they were immune from terrorism were nave then I guess I am, but frankly that just sounds like common sense to me, and I suspect that many would agree with me (you notice there that I say 'many', not 'all'). As I said before, read posts properly before calling people a bigot. I think Americans have many great qualities, just like the British, the French, the Spanish, but that many in the US population believed that they were not a terrorist target was nave, especially considering the WTC that had been attacked before. To believe it wouldnt happen again was nave. This is not to say that people should have stopped working there, because we cant let terrorism rule our lives. Shock at the violence, horror and dismay were things that the September 11th attacks provoked, but when the dust settled and the world considered what had happened, many did not express surprise that something like it had happened eventually.

It's your right to think whatever you want of me, but I hope you have read and understood this post as it is intended.

As a side-note, I believe that when I was a child my parents decided we would go to London. Terrorism is a threat but will not always happen that day. You cannot live your life in fear, but it is wise to be aware of it.


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CommieBastard
post Jun 4 2004, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Jun 4 2004, 12:03 PM)
Just look at Kleetus (sp?) in The Simpsons!

It's Cletus. Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel biggrin.gif


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Mata
post Jun 4 2004, 12:02 PM
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Some folks'll never eat a skunk
and then again some folk'll,
Like Cletus
The Slack Jawed Yokel!

*waits for PsycheWardMike to rip apart the rhyming scheme wink.gif Sorry Mike, couldn't resist!*


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Pab
post Jun 4 2004, 12:46 PM
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I reckon that any nationalistic rallying cry la "Remember what THEY did to US" is a twisted and perverted cry to violence, descrimination and fear, and is definitely void of any form of respect for the victims, or their memories... On the contrary, it is making a bad thing worse.

I agree that the entire world is very wary of what the next madness to be unleashed from the states is going to be, but I'd still like to remind you'all that its not 'you' and 'us' ... its just 'us' ... all of us. The extremists, the liberals, the clueless, the over-informed ... One planet, one problem ... and killing for vengence, money and/or club-membership is what should be stopped, including the american oil lobbies, including the extremist religious hate leaders, including all rapers and pillagers ...

And cthulhu, having been close to such violence and loss can make you touchy on the subject, by all means, but pointing a long finger at 'the outside world' and claiming 'you all hate us, you bastards' is not playing the card of understanding, shrewd analysis, or acquisition of relevant criteria ... It could almost be descibed as nave ...


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Righteous
post Jun 4 2004, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (Mata @ Jun 4 2004, 07:03 AM)
I could say that there are probably many in the US who are "Presidency worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene" because this is a stereotype of your citizens in the deep south. Just look at Kleetus (sp?) in The Simpsons! That's the great thing about living in a democracy, we have all kinds of people and they live up to all kinds of stereotypes constantly, as well as defeating them.

Yeah, there are a lot of folks here in the south like that. I used to work at a car garage with a few of them. Nice guys, though.

From all sides, there is way too much hate in this world. I'd like to think the folks who died on September 11th would like us to end the hatred within and around us before it consumes us.

QUOTE
And your statement "All Brits are Monarchy worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene" is probably true of a lot of people in the UK. By stating that you believe that to be an accurate description of all of the UK you are also showing yourself to be bigoted.

So it isn't true of everyone in the good ol' UK? tongue.gif Sorry. I couldn't resist.


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Greeneyes
post Jun 4 2004, 01:17 PM
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QUOTE (Righteous @ Jun 4 2004, 02:08 PM)
QUOTE
And your statement "All Brits are Monarchy worshipping, steak-boiling, rotted-teeth freaks with no personal hygene" is probably true of a lot of people in the UK. By stating that you believe that to be an accurate description of all of the UK you are also showing yourself to be bigoted.

So it isn't true of everyone in the good ol' UK? tongue.gif Sorry. I couldn't resist.

Of course it isn't. We grill our steaks.


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Righteous
post Jun 4 2004, 01:44 PM
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Shut up, noob!
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Thanks for the clarification, Greenie.


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acid_rain_child
post Jun 4 2004, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Righteous @ Jun 4 2004, 02:08 PM)
From all sides, there is way too much hate in this world. I'd like to think the folks who died on September 11th would like us to end the hatred within and around us before it consumes us.

I totally agree. I think we use their death as an excuse, instead of as a lesson. We say we miss them and we love them and we hate the people who took them away, but what about what they would have wanted? Not to be mourned forever, although I know a couple years isn't forever, don't we have to move on? Not to forget those who died, just don't dwell and focus on the hate.


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markslut
post Jun 4 2004, 02:24 PM
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Unfortunalty there is a Formula for how many Afghans and Iraqi's are equal to each American killed on 11/9 blink.gif


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spiffilicious05
post Jun 4 2004, 02:26 PM
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My god can't we just all get along? I mean, no one is perfect. The USA isn't, England isn't, France isn't, China isn't, Australia isn't. We all have our faults and nit picking on others, and then yelling at others for pointing out your faults just so that you may point out theirs will get us no where.

I agree that we shouldn't dwell on the past, but we shouldn't forget.

And just remember folks, no one is perfect. That's why there are erasers on pencils.


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Snugglebum the D...
post Jun 4 2004, 02:41 PM
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QUOTE
My god can't we just all get along?


I was thinking the same. There seems to be a lot of 'them and us' going on at the moment in this world.

And on the forum...


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Juiceisgood
post Jun 4 2004, 03:03 PM
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Perhaps we can spare a thought for the 3000 killed in Tiananmen Square, the 15th anniversary was today. Their deaths were, in many cases, volentary, to highlight the plight of their people, to me that speaks bounds more than the same amount of free and rich americans being killed in an attack, that whilst is regretable in the extreme, was ultimately deserved by the country. Billions go starving every day so that Americans, Australians, British and countless others can go to bed in warm houses with full stomaches and the latest CD players. I am disgusted with western people and countries, yet I am knee deep in it. Is it any surprise that the world's discontent would be expressed in such a symbolic and bloody way? And if we look at it impartially, I think it's safe to say that September 11 has been a long time coming, even though it might spell the end for all personal freedoms yet.


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Vote CPUSA for a free, democratic and socialist America
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