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> I Met John Kerry..., ...and embarresed him...
Baron
post Aug 14 2004, 06:10 AM
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Well, you might not say that I actually met him. I was screaming angrily at him at the time, and he was trying to ignore me.

Here's the story, copied and pasted from another forum...

And no, I am not making this up.

Just ask Mr. Kerry.


This morning, I grabbed my book of train tickets, put on my black "Signs of Life" t-shirt, put my rosary in my pocket, and went to the Kerry rally at Waterfront Park in Portland, Oregon.

I stood in line for one hour. Then I stood in the sun, in my black shirt and dress shoes. It got pretty hot...

But, I was patient. Most of the crowds had left. Senator Kerry was doing a segment for ESPN. (Playing with a football...that man is SO ripping off Keneddy. If I did that in Speach class, my teacher would give me an F.) I got closer. A crowd of people had stood around, at the fence, waiting to see the senator.

It was another half-hour, but he came out of the press tents and came towards the crowd. He was ten feet away, shaking hands! I stood silently, bidding my time.

This all happened in the space of four seconds: When he was four feet away, I jumped up and shouted: "Mister John Kerry! Do you know how to use one of these?" In my hands was my beautiful Italian-made rosary, hanging over the crowd. He noticed me...and then tried to ignore me. He continued shaking hands. "Sir, I'm just curious, are you a real Catholic?" He heard me. He must of. He got rather uncomfortable for just the split of a second. However, by then, a secret service agent had come up and was coaching me off the fence.

"Um...hi?" I looked up into the reflective glasses of the secret service agent.

"You made your point." and then, silently, you could tell he was saying: Please remove yourself from the fence.

Kerry was coming closer...but then, someone tapped me one the shoulders. It was some male supporter of Kerry. "Hey...there's someone from the press who wants to talk to you." Slightly confused and slightly eager to meet the press, I decided to stop bothering Kerry and find the press guy. By the time I'd reached the back of the crowd, Kerry had gotten into his black SUV...and there was no press. Stupid lier.

As the motorcade pulled out, I ran up the yellow tape and held up the rosary. Kerry saw me again...about nine feet away, out the window of the SUV.

Now knowing that there were angry democrats and suspicious secret service agents in the area, I decided not to stick around looking for press and booted it for the nearest light-rail station.

So...I'm hoping that someone from the press saw all, or part, of that. Maybe even took a picture or got a video of it all. That would be cool.


So, now I've been advised by other online friends to call up a national talk radio show and tell them the story...get a bit of notariety and face time with a real reporter.
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ravein
post Aug 14 2004, 07:13 AM
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While I am sure your religious beliefs are important to you, I personally would be happy if our elected officials kept their religion out of the White House.. There is this thing called separation of church and state. I am more interested in his views on health care, foreign relations, the war, economic issues and civil rights issues. As far as I am concerned, he can be agnostic. As long as he is a proper leader and does what is best for all Americans, not just Catholics, Christians or any other popular religion.
And with that I am moving this over to the Issues forum.


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CommieBastard
post Aug 14 2004, 10:26 AM
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Can anyone provide some background on this? I wasn't aware there was any question as to whether Kerry was a "real" Catholic.


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gothictheysay
post Aug 14 2004, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE
I wasn't aware there was any question as to whether Kerry was a "real" Catholic.


Kerry has some beliefs that the Catholic Church does not entirely share...Don't quote me on this because it was a long time ago when I read it, but there had been some disruption because Kerry supported abortion in some shape or form, and that got the Catholic Church a bit teed off.


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MistressAlti
post Aug 14 2004, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Aug 14 2004, 05:26 AM)
Can anyone provide some background on this? I wasn't aware there was any question as to whether Kerry was a "real" Catholic.
*


"Real" Catholics don't support abortion, but Kerry does. There's been a recent argument in the Catholic church saying that any Catholic that supports abortion should be denied Holy Communion, as they are actively and willingly supporting sin. It's a controversial issue right now.
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CommieBastard
post Aug 14 2004, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (MistressAlti @ Aug 14 2004, 01:11 PM)
"Real" Catholics don't support abortion, but Kerry does. There's been a recent argument in the Catholic church saying that any Catholic that supports abortion should be denied Holy Communion, as they are actively and willingly supporting sin. It's a controversial issue right now.
*


Huh. Scotsman fallacy. It hardly seems relevant to whether the man would be a good President.


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gerbilfromhell
post Aug 14 2004, 01:39 PM
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Yeah, well, all things considered, judging someone on their religion isn't as bas as judging them on their looks (not that judging someone based on their religion isn't an incredibly terrible way to pick a cnadidate anyways, but still....). Seriously, thousands and thousands, and probably more, votes are cast based on height, dress, haircut, and looks in general (even eyebrows! No joke, I know of one person casting her vote based on eyebrows).

See, this's why I have no problem with people who decide not to vote. I don't want people voting who're only going to vote based on height, religion, looks, etc. just because they simply don't care about politics and no nothing about the candidates. So many people are saying, "You all need to vote in the elections! Your vote matters; use it!" Y'know what would happen if everyone was forced to vote? You'd have a very, very large group of voters that voted based on the most ridiculous things. Can you imagine the elections of our country being decided *only* on looks, while the people who actually care about politics and voting at least somewhat are a *minority*?
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Snugglebum the D...
post Aug 14 2004, 01:41 PM
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QUOTE
It hardly seems relevant to whether the man would be a good President.


I suppose that depends on whether he's using his Catholism to better his chance at gaining votes - in which case it does become important.


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CommieBastard
post Aug 14 2004, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (Snugglebum the Destroyer @ Aug 14 2004, 01:41 PM)
QUOTE
It hardly seems relevant to whether the man would be a good President.


I suppose that depends on whether he's using his Catholism to better his chance at gaining votes - in which case it does become important.
*



But what's a "true" Catholic? It's the Scotsman fallacy:

A: No true Scotsman puts sugar in his oatmeal.
B: But my friend Angus is a Scotsman, and he always puts sugar in his oatmeal!
A: Then Angus isn't a true Scotsman.

If your definition of a Catholic is someone who believes exactly as the Vatican believes, then yes, Kerry isn't a "true" Catholic. But is that the definition? We don't define "Republican" as "someone who unswervingly agrees with everything the Republican Party says", do we?


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Silver Star Ange...
post Aug 14 2004, 03:52 PM
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I don't think a candidate's religious opinions should matter. It should be about what they can do for the nation, not what they believe in.


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Baron
post Aug 14 2004, 04:46 PM
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Kerry's made it known that he carries a rosary, prayer book, and St. Christopher medal on the road.

And yet, Kerry got uncomfortable and tried to ignore me.

Then there's what that secret service agent said..."You've made you point." I got the distinct impression he was smiling at that point. These guys travel the road with Kerry. Maybe he was inadvertantly dropping a hint that Kerry is a hypocrite?

Of coarse I'm probably overanalyzing things right now. I can't imagine another circumstance where an agent would drop anything inadvertantly.

Kerry claims he's an active Catholic. He's pulled stunts...like the rosary and prayer book thing. And then recieving communion in a church...after bringing cameras into the church. The Catholic vote is split right down the middle, and it's going to be one of the most important parts of the upcoming election. Kerry's religious nature might even decide the election.
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gothictheysay
post Aug 14 2004, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE
Kerry's made it known that he carries a rosary, prayer book, and St. Christopher medal on the road.

And yet, Kerry got uncomfortable and tried to ignore me.

The Catholic vote is split right down the middle, and it's going to be one of the most important parts of the upcoming election. Kerry's religious nature might even decide the election.


Has he made it known? Do you have any solid evidence? That might help. People are bound to get uncomfortable in the situation Kerry was in. Maybe he was uncomfortable about a religious display? And I surely hope Kerry's religious nature doesn't decide the election...


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CommieBastard
post Aug 14 2004, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE
Kerry's made it known that he carries a rosary, prayer book, and St. Christopher medal on the road.

And yet, Kerry got uncomfortable and tried to ignore me.


Politicians almost always avoid confrontations; it always gets reported, and they never, ever come out of it looking good. Should he have gotten into a shouting match with you? All that would have acheived would have been him looking like an arrogant asshole.

As to the uncomfortableness: I don't know about you, but I hate being confronted like that. Even when I know I'm in the right, blood rushes to my face, I speak too loud and I start to stammer. I say stupid things. I expect I would have done exactly the same thing: looked uncomfortable and done my best to avoid you.


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ravein
post Aug 14 2004, 06:00 PM
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I don’t understand the relevance, many followers of a religion may carry religious items with them in an effort to feel protected, or comfortable. Just because you do not agree with everything a man made religion says does not make you any less of a person. Lets face it, religion is the interpretation of a group of people who wrote a interpretation of someone who claims to be a profit. Over thousands of years religion has been translated and manipulated to fit the view of certain groups of people.. no one is a true Catholic, Christian, etc.. to be a true Catholic, Christina etc.. one must have sat at the knee of god/christ/mary/buddha/satan/athena/pan/<insert god-goddess here>
and taken notes for yourself.
I think the best one can do is following your own heart, if not all members of your chosen religion feel that way.. well tough.. religion is a personal experience for each person.


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artist.unknown
post Aug 14 2004, 08:57 PM
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George Bush wouldn't make a model Catholic, either, if he was one. From what I've heard, the Pope was also against the war. It also tickles me silly that while people get themselves all in knots over the abortion issue, they ignore the fact that the death penalty is similarly vorboten by the Vatican. So Kerry's a bad Catholic because he's pro-choice? What about all the pro-death penalty Catholics? It's wrong to make hypocritical judgements based on religion. Kerry may be at odds on one issue, but it's irresponsible to ignore the fact that Bush is, by the same Papal rules, much worse.


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Righteous
post Aug 14 2004, 11:33 PM
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Any attack on one's religion would cause that person to feel uncomfortable. If I were to say that because you insulted someone based on his Faith (or in this case, lack thereof) and therefore not a Catholic, you'd probably get pissed at me just as well. The Secret Service agent probably figured you were harassing Mr. Kerry and just needed a talking to.

And Ravein's right. Who's to say that someone is or isn't a true Catholic or Christian or whatever? I recall vividly on instance in particular someone telling me flat-out that I'm not a Christian because I listen to metal and wear black clothes, chains and makeup (and going back to my earlier point, I wanted to pop the asshole's face but my friends were there and they prevented me from doing so).

And how do you know that person was a supporter of Kerry? Was he wearing a button or shirt? Could you figure that he just didn't dig your yelling?

I'm a Christian (a nondenominationalist, but I attend a Methodist church). I'm for gay marriage, for abortion rights (though not abortion itself), for the Second Amendment, anti-democracy, anti-death penalty, for drug legalization and for the end of any and all socialistic practices in the US government. My politics are spawned from my religious and spiritual beliefs. THere are Christian organizations who are against all of the above. Is my Faith not real then? Do they have any bearing on my Faith? Or do I decide what I believe?


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Phyllis
post Aug 15 2004, 01:37 AM
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I'm sure you honestly made very little difference in Kerry's day.

Think about it...he's been in the Presidential race for quite awhile. He has to be used to people yelling criticisms at him by now. In order to be in such a position, you have to learn how to shrug these things off and not let them get to you...which is probably exactly what he did.

If it had been me you had shouted at, I would have asked what business was it of yours how I practiced my faith (I'm not Catholic, but even so...), and I probably would have told you exactly where you could shove that rosary. But then, that's one of the many reasons why I'll never be a politician. biggrin.gif

On another note, I agree with what Ravein and others said...his religion should play no part in how fit he is to be President. As I have said numerous times before, I would vote for whoever I thought would do the best job, regardless of what religion they were.


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MistressAlti
post Aug 15 2004, 03:31 AM
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QUOTE (candice @ Aug 14 2004, 08:37 PM)
I'm sure you honestly made very little difference in Kerry's day.
*


Seriously. If you did what you did because you felt some heavy religious fanaticism coming on, well, I can only imagine that you're very satisfied with Kerry's reaction at your outbursts.

I find this thread fascinating. Seeing as angry religious fanaticism in regards to government and patriotism is usually regarded as a negative idea, particularly so in that it is an idea that our country is currently trying (failing?) to fight around the world, isn't it ironic that all the while we are apparently breeding similar religious-fueled hatred of our own from the other side? Hmm.

In any case. Other than that your personal satisfaction, I do have to ask, what is it that were you trying to prove or accomplish? And why do you wish, or even expect, for the media to take notice of a verbally abusive teenager belittling a high-profile candidate over his religious beliefs? Attention, possibly? Surely you must realize that there are hundred of Catholics that have ridiculed Kerry publically by now, all of which possessing more media visability than you, shouting and waving or not.

There's got to be better ways to make a point than that.
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Phyllis
post Aug 15 2004, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (MistressAlti @ Aug 14 2004, 07:31 PM)
Other than that your personal satisfaction, I do have to ask, what is it that were you trying to prove or accomplish? And why do you wish, or even expect, for the media to take notice of a verbally abusive teenager belittling a high-profile candidate over his religious beliefs? Attention, possibly? Surely you must realize that there are hundred of Catholics that have ridiculed Kerry publically by now, all of which possessing more media visability than you, shouting and waving or not.

There's got to be better ways to make a point than that.
*


Agreed. I'm in Oregon too, and Kerry and Bush's respective visits were both the main stories on the news here that day (they were both in Portland at the same time). They did show one protestor at Kerry's little speech dealie...he was an older man who held up posters of Michael Moore (insulting to Moore...not so much to Kerry. I don't know why he bothered with that) and something else about Kerry's military history. He accomplished nothing, other than 2 seconds of media attention and several arguments with Kerry supporters. I don't really see the point. I mean, sure, you're free to make a stand against whatever you like. But like Missy said...there must be a better way than waving and shouting. Especially when you are absolutely surrounded by people who are so supportive of Kerry that they bothered to show up at Waterfront Park to hear him speak. What difference would that make, other than possibly starting an argument? blink.gif


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Righteous
post Aug 15 2004, 07:39 PM
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Has yelling, screaming and harassing ever really worked to do anything? To me, that's a case of talking without saying anything. If anything, crap like holding a rosary and calling someone a pseudo-Catholic is pointless and futile if your trying to make a point. Often, such things could end up being counter-productive more than anything, unless your attempt is to get the person or organization your protesting to detest you.


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Mata
post Aug 15 2004, 10:29 PM
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I think I agree with many of the above points.

Church and state should be distinct, but a person with a stated religious faith (which in an election can become part of their appeal) can also prove more predicatable and trustworthy.

Missy makes a good point (albeit it a bit bluntly!); what reaction were you expecting Baron? Mr Kerry could have said 'yes', but would you have believed him? What then, would you have asked him to demonstrate? But then, even if he did that (and with his schedule he would not, and really why should he?) how would you know that he hadn't just learnt what to do with them as a performance?

No man can prove his faith to another, therefore it is always a good policy to avoid confrontation on matters of religion. This becomes even more of the case when the person appears to value the acts of the faith in a fanatical manner, because who knows what other ideas such a person may deem right or wrong.

From the perspective of Mr Kerry and his protective gurads you most likely appeared to be a religious fanatic, and I can imagine that a very sound policy during an election campaign would be to avoid such people. The agent was probably appearing to be friendly and sympathetic because that's a more effective way of confronting a fanatic than directly forcing them to stop their actions. He did his job and you appear to have fallen 100% for this tactic.

If you did cause him embarassment, then surely that is to his credit? He is not so isolated from the average person and their emotions that he never feels embarassed that he is compelled by his political position to ignore those who appear to be of a confrontational nature on religious topics. To be embarassed shows an understanding of how sensitive issues of faith can be. I'd really like a man like that in the presidential office at times when links need to be created between states of differing beliefs.

I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to try and get your story out, really Mr Kerry comes out of it better than you. Of course, if your intention is to make yourself look inconsiderate of him, and for him to appear human but professional under pressure then maybe you should go ahead.


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Baron
post Aug 15 2004, 11:01 PM
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QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Aug 14 2004, 02:02 PM)
It's the Scotsman fallacy:

A: No true Scotsman puts sugar in his oatmeal.
B: But my friend Angus is a Scotsman, and he always puts sugar in his oatmeal!
A: Then Angus isn't a true Scotsman.


Catholicism is a belief, not a race. A belief in Christ and in the Church. Catholic is the complete opposite of race. The word means, "universal". No Catholic believes exactly what every man in the Vatican says. Everyone has to think for themeselves, analyze there beliefs...because something one of those guys in the Vatican says might be mistaken sometimes. Because humans are fallible.

As a Catholic, I truly believe in this:


Jesus said to Peter, "You are Rock and on this rock I will build my Church." (Matthew 16: 18)


That's the Constitution of the Church, right there.

Just like how I'm not an American because I was born an American.

I am an American because I believe in the Constitution of the United States. I would uphold and protect this document with my life. To die for an idea. Yes, that is radical. I am a radical. I am a radical. Radical: to have roots. I certainly have roots. Christ. Church. Constitution. Take those things out of me, and I'm dead, because those are my roots.

QUOTE
I think the best one can do is following your own heart


So, your roots are in your heart, huh? Wow. You base your beliefs, your life, and who you are, on feelings. Feelings come and go. You feel different in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, at night. Feelings last for hours, minutes, seconds...how can you build anything on those? You can't build a life on your heart.

Christ and Church. Those two show the fact that there is a moral absolute. We were all born with one moral absolute to our knowledge: Right and wrong. Good and evil. Constructive and destructive. Build. Do not destroy.

The Constitution is the document of a government where it is possible to live this way. Where people have freedoms, and should use their freedoms. Where right will eventually win.

QUOTE
George Bush wouldn't make a model Catholic, either, if he was one.


Did I ever say I supported Bush?


If I can get a thousand more people do the same thing I did, I will make a difference.

What I did was create a symbol.

I created an idea.

And ideas are the most powerful things in the world.
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CommieBastard
post Aug 15 2004, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE (Baron @ Aug 15 2004, 11:01 PM)
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Aug 14 2004, 02:02 PM)
It's the Scotsman fallacy:

A: No true Scotsman puts sugar in his oatmeal.
B: But my friend Angus is a Scotsman, and he always puts sugar in his oatmeal!
A: Then Angus isn't a true Scotsman.


Catholicism is a belief, not a race. A belief in Christ and in the Church. Catholic is the complete opposite of race. The word means, "universal". No Catholic believes exactly what every man in the Vatican says. Everyone has to think for themeselves, analyze there beliefs...because something one of those guys in the Vatican says might be mistaken sometimes. Because humans are fallible.
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I know it's not a race, dude, I never said it was a race. As I explained later on in my post, it's an analogy. The point of the fallacy is, you appear to have excluded Kerry from Catholicism because he disagrees with official Vatican policy. I don't think that's valid. And if you weren't doing that, why did you question whether or not Kerry is a real Catholic?

QUOTE
What I did was create a symbol.

I created an idea.

And ideas are the most powerful things in the world.


You shouted at a politician. I'm sure that'll get you written up in the history books.


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Every sort of expert knowledge and every inquiry, and similarly every action and undertaking, seems to seek some good. Because of that, people are right to affirm that the good is 'that which all things seek'...
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gothictheysay
post Aug 15 2004, 11:59 PM
Post #24


living in your basement, eating your candy hearts
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Not that I want to turn this into a theological discussion, but one point that I really disagree with:

QUOTE
We were all born with one moral absolute to our knowledge: Right and wrong. Good and evil. Constructive and destructive. Build. Do not destroy.


The reason I don't agree with this is usually when you're born, you have no idea what right or wrong is. This might just be a technicality issue, so I apologize if it is, but usually you have to be instructed on rights and wrongs when you're younger. Also, right, good, and constructive and their opposites are ideas and are not concrete, therefore one person's right is almost bound to be another person's wrong, one's good another's evil, and one's constructivism (making up a word there; and I will say that constructive is more concrete) the other's deconstructive.


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Being corrupted by candice since 2004
teal and orange is the way forward
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Phyllis
post Aug 16 2004, 12:10 AM
Post #25


Candbrush Threepwood
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QUOTE (Baron @ Aug 15 2004, 03:01 PM)
So, your roots are in your heart, huh? Wow. You base your beliefs, your life, and who you are, on feelings. Feelings come and go. You feel different in the morning, in the afternoon, in the evening, at night. Feelings last for hours, minutes, seconds...how can you build anything on those? You can't build a life on your heart.
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I'd rather base my beliefs on what I feel is best in my heart, rather than something I was simply raised to believe. I refuse to follow my parents' religion blindly. I base my life on what I feel is correct. I personally can't understand basing it on anything other than my heart (that isn't to say that people who are raised a certain religion and choose to follow it in their adult life are doing so blindly...far from it. All I mean is that I refuse to accept something just because I was raised with it...and in my opinion neither should anyone else. If, after serious thought on the subject, they feel that it's right...then that's great. But they should seriously take some time to contemplate their feelings on the matter...blah, I'm babbling now. I'll stop).

Sorry, got off-topic for a second there. Aaanyway. You may think that you made a statement, but I disagree. You were surrounded by Kerry supporters. You were, in effect, preaching to the choir, because there were a few other protestors aside from you at the event...being just as loud. I don't think anything will come of it other than you looking like a religious fanatic, which isn't the most flattering image you can paint of yourself. But...if you feel that it wasn't in vain, then more power to you, I suppose. I still just think there could have been a better way to go about it.


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I love you in a way that is mystical and eternal and illegal in 20 states.
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