Well, it's looking increasingly like Bush has Ohio and so the election. It's interesting that in another thread some of the Americans on here are reporting that Bush has 269 electoral votes whereas the UK media is reporting that he has 254 and Kerry 252. However, the most likely outcome of Ohio at the moment is that Bush is going to get it and therefore win the Presidency.

Four more years of economic mismanagement and deficit.

Four more years of removing human rights, rights for homosexuals, and rights for women.

Four more years of some of the most disasterous foreign policy in history, and destruction of the environment.

And four more years of seeing the face of a man who clearly doesn't understand the words that are being said to him.

EDIT: Four more years of this kind of nonsense http://www.peer.org/press/524.html

If I were in America I'd leave. Since I live on the same planet, I suspect that I may have to emigrate to Mars.

Bush's lead in Ohio is approximately 100,000. The absentee and provisional ballots have yet to be counted - I personally know two people in Ohio who voted for Kerry on absentee ballots - and may number as many as 250,000.

The fat lady, I'm afraid, has yet to begin her aria.

I'm with sean on this one, optimism and so on...

I know of someone who has plans to leave the country should Bush be re-elected, I can imagine a mass exodus

On the theme of the OP:

Four more years of an administration that calls the Geneva Convention "quaint"

Four more years of the Doctrine of Total War

Four more years of populist anti-intellectualism and blind faith replacing reason and fact

Edit to add: Considering leaving America? Read this.

The odds of Ohio going to Kerry are astronomical. With most generous estimates he has to get at least 70% of the remaining votes. A lot of those are military and the military has a strong history of voting Republican.

It's over. Mata, the reason is that none of the tallies are official, the various news organizations create their own statistical levels at which they 'declare' a state (most are at least 98% accurate). I was flipping all last night and most of the stations had different electoral vote totals. At this point, Bush has almost certainly taken two of the remaining six states and with Ohio this puts him at almost 280 votes. He's won.

While not a big Bush fan I think there are factions in the Democratic Party that are pleased with the results. I think Hillary Clinton and her faction want to take the Presidency but didn't want to chance facing Bush. If Kerry won, she wouldn't have had her chance in 2008.

What annoys me is the Republicans now have a larger margin of control in both houses making them able to pass virtually any legislation they desire. I like it when the power is split so that less gets done. The less that gets done the better in my mind.

This is horrible.. Awful. Completely and utterly dreadful. The only reason I am still in America and not packing up my bags is that I am still a minor, a student, and living in a house of people who somehow feel like hey don't need to leave. I mean, really, think about it. now that Bush is still here he is bound to do more stupid and incompetent things regarding the Middle East, they will most likely have more terror attacks, and I am not exactly well stuated to deal with those. i live in Pennsylvania, a state that is inconviniently in between New York and Washington DC it also houses Philadelphia, the place in which the Declaration of Independence was signed and which currently has the Liberty Bell.
God Bless America??
God Help America.

I think there's a little bit of an overreaction here. Bush will only be in power for four years. There will be terror attacks no matter who wins. Kerry also intends to continue the War on Terror but he wants to make it more of a global effort. There's no need to panic.

I'm going with my default: Bush sucks, Kerry sucks, Nader sucks.

Anyone who wants to be a politician should not allow to be. So f*ck Bush, screw Kerry, and Nader can go to hell. Mata for president, anyone?

Language dear boy, language.... (Saucy)

I'm with mike on this, find some poor hapless soul and force them to be president - it's the only way to remove corruption, unless they are annoyed by being forced into their new role and take it out on the country.

(not implying that Mata is hapless or poor or anything, honest).

I have never been more disappointed in my country, or it's population. Ignorance is not an excuse. I can't even talk about this I am so pissed off. And if you think this is a overreaction you know little of the issues. This will affect America for at least the next 20 years.

Yes, the military does have a strong history of voting Republican, however, the military has been crapped on by the Bush administration. Primarily sending them off to be killed in pointless wars (although a lot of them don't see that). For example, the reserve was used very early in Iraq, and only given something like 2 days notice in some parts (although that may be Colorado I'm thinking of), ignoring the legal requirement to give reservists 3 weeks notice before being posted overseas. There are plenty of examples of how the military has been treated like dirt by Bush. Unfortunately my brain is too addled by sleep deprivation for me to be arsed to look them all up or able to remember them.

I'm not sure of the military population in Ohio, or how likely they are to vote Democrat this time. Bear in mind also though, that a lot of those absentee ballots will be students studying in other states or overseas. Students are supposedly more likely to vote Democrat. (Saying that though, the Ohioan student I'm living next to is a close minded, ignorant Bushist)

I'm with Ravein on this one, sorry Xeno, but four years is a very long time in politics. There is a standard belief that once rights are taken away by a government it is extremely rare for them to ever be given back again. The decisions made by this administration will most likely be haunting America for a long time to come.

On the bright side, at least Californians seem to have the right idea, i.e. try to ignore the government and get on with things on a local scale instead. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3977347.stm

Could be worse. It could be Jeb Bush. I've heard him described as George Bush but without the intellect.

Could be a lot better too, but to be honest we were hoping Americans would choose the slightly lesser of two evils. It's been said before, the Democrats aren't much better than the Republicans at the moment.

My sympathies to anyone in America. I can recommend a good B+B round here if you ever decide to flee.

As was said in another thread, Kerry has conceded the election.

I hear Toronto is nice this time of year.

Bush wasn't really elected the first time, to begin with...but due to a governor for brother in the deciding
state, he pulled it off. ( /me wonders if bushy-boy has got any odd relatives in Ohio) *harrumph

Bush has no political tact, discretion, talent, or wit. I am shocked any american would vote for him at
all. He has brought america many new enemies and disgruntled former allies. He should have waited
for UN support, a uni-lateral vote, if he cared (at all) about America's dubious and poorly reputed
history of mangled foreign relations based on the boot and the rifle and the chequebook.

It would be a tragic situation if he won (for the first time)!!

So...who else thinks that within 2 years all of North and South Korea (by proximity) and half of the New England states will be massive ground-zero smoking craters? I'm concerned...and have friends considering starting a back-woods commune in Northern Saskatchewan or perhaps Banff and Jasper.

It's hard to want to stay...

One of my friends, half-jokingly, suggested that Bush may run for election again in 2008. How? After being appointed president the first time, he could argue that he didn't win the first election, and therefore has only been elected president once, making him eligible for yet another four years.

Yeah, it's a joke, but not a very funny one.

Alright, I'm going to make my rant as a person who lived with North and South Korean politics for half her life. No one and I mean no one I have known who has lived through one of these so called military threats from North Korea ever believes they will do anything. NK likes more than anything to jump out and yell boo with their military build ups next to the DMZ and their mysterious troop movements and they love to scare all those people around the world, and all the newbies fresh to Korea who run around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming "They have to pull us out, they have to pull us out, it isn't safe!" And then North Korea does what it always does it backs down with a big smirk on its face, goes to the nice diplomatic talks and then promptly backs out. Now if anyone would like to argue that with me, please do it has been a while since I've gotten to talk about that.

Oh and as an American who voted for Kerry, "WHAT THE HELL KIND OF MORONS LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY?!" I was up passed three here praying something would happen, that Kerry would win, but nooooo, FOUR MORE YEARS. I don't know what I'm going to do.

It's a pity, really, but this time he won fair and square, n'est ce pas? I mean, what the people vote has to be good for them, right? *Sigh....* How I wish my French or Japanese were better, and I had money...

<By the way, only the second sentence was meant to be bitingly sarcastic. The first is supposed to be whistfully depressed, and the rest have punctuation alluding to tone.>

Condolenses or congratulations to the southern neighbors depending how you voted. I think Kerry should've held tight until all the votes were in, myself. Isn't it a bit insulting to have your candidate throw up his hands and say 'That's it, I'm out' before it's even 100% certain? What if he did have enough?

Personally I think it was rather noble of Kerry. It seems petty to want to hang on and hope that 70% of the provisianal (sp?) would go to him. Ohio had been leaning towards Bush all night, whereas states like Nevada and New Hampshire switched back and forth all night.

On another note, does anyone remember who Iowa went to? I only got sporadic info throughout the day, so I missed huge chunks of the updates.

Hmm..Bush won.
See, i was apprehensive about seeing Kerry win. I went to sleep terrified of another attack...i just...had this feeling that it Kerry won, America would see disturbing terrorist attacks...i suppose i was nervous about the security of the nation during the changing of office...
Then i woke up and i heard that Bush won...
i was so...dissapointed.
i could feel my tummy drop...
I knew it wasn't the right choice.

Odd reactions, huh...

According to CNN's website, both Iowa and New Mexico are still processing.

Thanks. (not that it really matters now)

Four more years of hell.


Anyone in the UK have a pull out couch that they'd be willing to rent out?

I'm thinking of fleeing to Ireland. According to some obscure law, I qualify for citizenship because both my grandparents were Irish citizens.

People, my friends, family.. Those who rise to lead a country, to lead a nation, one must understand this... They aren't fit to lead the country, when put in a position of power they will always be corrupt. Those intelligent enough, strong enough to lead the country... Their intelligence and strength brings them to know that it is a pointless effort, a failing battle, to join in the modern day elections, to try and make right what is wrong as most has gone too far already. Hunger for power is evil's true root.

I've been reading the Mars trilogy of books recently (very slowly) and at the moment the characters in the book are trying to decide upon a new governemental structure for Mars and it actually has some good ideas.

Instead of having one president have a committee, instead of electing the commitee randomly select people from the population to serve for a year or so, like Jury duty. Something similar would completely prevent people getting power just because they want power and make running the country a chore for the people rather than something that someone wants to obtain for their own reasons.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about another terrorist attack now that Bush is in power. Kerry was willing to take a fresh look at foreign policy, which is what the terrorists are angry about in the first place. Bush now presents the biggest threat to the American people and international peace and security in my not so humble opinion. Honestly, I think the attitude of "if we elect Kerry, then there's going to be terrorist attacks because Kerry's a wuss" is utterly out to lunch. The "war on Iraq" I think has probably spurred way more international hatred -- the perfect breeding ground for terrorism -- than any single other even in US history.

My prediction is that terrorist activity is only going to skyrocket now. I'm sure for most Arab countries, this feels like a giant slap in the face.

"Mr Bush's re-election came at a crucial time for a world that was "fractured, divided and uncertain", Mr Blair said. "
From Blairs nice little congratulation speechspeech
There still letting this guy out to talk to people?!
He's doesn't really seem to grasp the fact that it was him and Mr. Bush who made this world fractured divided, and a rather not so safe place to be.
And incase you haven't heard. clicky He's wants to go for another term! He's even got beer steins ready.

Well atleast I have more faith that Blair wont get in.

Oh man. Maybe it's the antidepressants I've been put on, or maybe I'm just exhausted, but I can't even get mad. I'm just sort of... tired of it all. I never even really thought Kerry was going to win. I think I went up to bed around when it was 170 to 112, knowing that he didn't have a chance.

I would like to say, however, that Maryland contributed 10 points to Kerry, thankyouverymuch.

Bush is president, but we need to address a real issue now. The entire nation is completley divided in their politics, basically straight down the middle. A radio show host made a good point last night saying that democrats think that if republicans get in, there will be back alley abortions, and the republicans think the democrats will take away their guns. But in the end, there's a republican in office right now and there are no back alley abortions. Planned Parenthood still exists. Over that, Clinton was in for 8 years, and every redneck and paranoid yuppy family still has their guns. Now, this is an extremely simplified example, but it's basically the truth. Do any of these things ever get done? No, there's no way. There are too many people that would have a fit if abortions were made illegal, and too many people that would spaz without their guns. Anyway, there are more important things to worry about than guns and abortion. What about the economy, what about basic foreign policy, for Christ's sake?! That's what needs to be dealt with. We also need to handle the fact that this country is split by politics, there's no unity and hardly any happy medium. There's no reason 49.9999% of the country should hate the president, it's not supposed to work that way. Something needs to change.

What Kerry did was noble. He didn't want another Florida, and he decided to leave and keep his dignity. I just wish it didn't have to end that way.

I think everyone's been taking this way too seriously. I've really enjoyed having Bush in power. It's given everyone a single hate figure to aim at, someone whom everyone can rally against. Hasn't anyone else been feeling the sense of camaraderie on both sides? See - we're all comforting each other and bitching about it together. It's not at all like with Clinton, where everyone was making boring, balanced statements and not really agreeing or disagreeing with anything. It was dull, this is fun.

And, hey! we've still got Hillary to look forward to in 2008. HILLARY '08! Whoo!

I never had any real hope that Kerry would win; as incumbant, Bush already had a tremendous advantage, not to mention the fact that Democrats were widely disenfranchised pre-election (in one county, anyone who wasn't registered Rublican had their registration receipt thrown out). After all, why not extend his policy of lying and stealing to the election? I have serious concerns for the future of the country and the world. The most ridiculous reason I've heard yet for voting for Bush was the logical fallacy "He made the mess, and he should clean it up" (after "Kerry looks like Frankenstein"); why trust him to clean it up, rather than continue his obvious pattern and make more messes? So hurrah America. Four more years...if we survive that long, that is.

My family is concidering relocating to New Zealand (there is a program for Presby ministers and their families to do so). We almost did, about 8 years back, but due to crap reasons didn't. Who ever said, 'I know, let's go bomb the sheep in New Zealand'? Hmm yes. Off I go.

I don't think I'm ignorant of the issues and I don't think America is about to be destroyed in a cascade of terrorist attacks. Yes, total terrorist attacks are on the rise but most of the recent ones have been in the Middle East (i.e. shooting self in foot). Bush is seen as irresponisble by most of the world but that anger is mostly targeted at just him.........Bush. Once a new changeover takes place, relations will change.

I have a friend who is a speechwriter for George Bush and meets with him several times a year. She says that he is really dedicated to what he believes and honestly thinks what he is doing what he believes is right *but* he's not exceptionally bright. I don't fear intense corruption (Bush doesn't have to worry about reelection) because he doesn't need votes anymore.My greatest fear is he will do something dumb.

Kerry seems a little bit brighter but I don't trust him any farther than I can kick him. Anyone who tells me he has a plan to end *all* terrorist attacks and won't tell me how he plans to do it seems like a bit of a liar to me. How is he going to do this? By the end, I didn't really care who wins.

I think today is now a day of national tragedy here in America.

The kids at our school, some of them were being stupid and acting happy that Bush won? Well, it's their funeral, and for the near half of America that voted Kerry, ours too. I've never been so disappointed in my life -- is our country inherently masochistic? Do people really like this sort of thing? I wish some of the closed minded die hard Bush-ites would open their eyes and realise that if we don't get rid of this man, we're in big trouble and our world popularity has probably declined back to its .001%. I don't know. It's just .. saddening, really, that half of us are that blind.

When I was at school (in a spanish-speaking country) we used to learn about how Argentina had a great reputation for huge amounts of people emigrating from there. The intellectuals were either killed or exhiled, and then the general populace basically tried to ship out, leading up to the famous phrase "the last person to leave should turn off the lights" ...

We all thought this was outlandish and comical. 20 years later, the economy crashed entirely, they had 5 presidents in the same week, and all savings were impounded by the 'government' to pay their own rediculous debts, like the people who printed passports, and so on. Patagonia as since been sold off (to wealthy americans) and things are as glum as they ever have been.

Bad stuff really does happen to a misguided, or non-guided nations.

I'm glad i dont live there. Come over here. We don't let fools get away with so much (Blair not withstanding ... he'll be moving to the states in the next 5 years, just like Aznar did. He's already got it sorted over there, thanks to Georgie-porgie)

That won't happen to the United States (at least not in the next few years). America's citizens are easily riled. There will be a revolt first.

Xeno, I don't think that anyone doubts that Bush is very dedicated to what he believes, it's just that most of the world find his lack of flexibility in the face of an opposing reality to be genuinely frightening.

You can be incredibly convinced that the shortest route is over a cliff edge. Just because you are dedicated to this it doesn't mean that it is safe or beneficial for anyone.

That idea was precisely what Kerry was trying to get across to America during the debates. He had a great quote.....something like "it is good to be certain but better to be certain that you are wrong and change your course of action.......feh, he was a lot more poetic than my hazy memory gives him credit for.

Stupid Bush.

Kerry is the opposite danger. I have followed his campaign and because he's SO unsure he hasn't really convinced me he has a plan for anything. That's why I vote Libertarian

I agree that Kerry seems to waver, but if you pay attention to his speeches, he rarely contradicts himself as many anti-Kerry's claim he does (my grammar is atrocious, please don't cart me off to Grammar Prison). Yes his plans seemed a bit vague, but if he had gone into the detail necessary to carry his point, he would have been accused of wordiness. In fact, few presidential speeches actually give precise details (with the exception of H.W.'s "read my lips" comment, which turned out to be a lie....). So there's some intellectual commentary to even out my "stupid bush" comment even though he is stupid

What annoyed me about Kerry is while he claims to be against the war in Iraq, he authorized (c'mon, he knew what Bush was doing) it in the Senate. Now he makes all kinds of promises about getting out but I've heard three different timetables he's given. This is purely a presidential thing. Congress can't stop the President from pulling out. So is it going to be a year, three years, five years?

Also if you're changing your view at least say this is a new plan. He confused me to no end.

Hmm. I was quite pleased with the outcome of the election. While I don't agree with Bush on everything, I think he makes the stronger leader.

I think Bush in office for four more years will lead to a dissintigration of the seperation of church and state, wich )no offence( our ancestors left England and other countries to achieve all those years ago

Regardless of what you think about stem cell research, this was actually a dumb move for California. There is no point on spending all that money on stem cell research when we are in so much debt as it is. Cloning should be one of our bottom priorities when other things like our healthcare are facing huge budget cuts.

Erm, if you read the article, you'd realize that California banned cloning while approving stem cell research... the two are entirely different biomedical ethical questions.

And I don't think anything's dumb about trying to improve the health care of thousands, perhaps millions of people by increasing funding to research in an exciting and promising new field.

---

Anyway, I hope you who are thinking of leaving America think twice before doing so. The US is not in a great state right now, and if all the liberals up and leave, it's only going to get worse. The four years that are coming are going to be very difficult for the non-Republicans, but I think running away at this point is the wrong option. Figure out what you did wrong this time, and do it better next time. We have to fight. Click here for someone else's intelligent feelings on the matter.

My most sincere comiserations to all non male, non white non fundaMENTAList christian, non heterosexual americans.
The next 4 years is going to be pretty poor for the rest of the planet, but you are again lumped with a leader who is megaolmaniac psycho and hates you.

I have a spare room that is currently free, so if you do decide to leave the country let me know and I can put you up!

I agree with you here - Bush is a much stronger, more decisive leader. By contrast, Kerry is much less certain about himself and his actions. However, I personally prefer to have a leader who questions themself and is open to change to a leader who just follows their beliefs blindly. Bush's following of his beliefs led to an illegitimate war in Iraq, the unnecessary wasting of millions of dollars worldwide in the hunt for terrorism, and the removal of civil liberties for Americans and foreigners alike. Once Bush has made up his mind, he does not change it, and I find that kind of inflexibility to be deeply unnattractive in a national leader. Perhaps you think it is a good thing (and you are most certainly not alone), but I cannot see how.

I am very disappointed.

Adding to the disappointment are the victories for Republicans in the House and Senate.

Not only that, our local issues. I live in a middle-upper-class area with lots of wealthy people who tend to be Republican around. A motion for higher taxes to build more schools in the area failed. The wealthy people have all these kids, yet won't pay for their schooling, because taxes are apparently the worst consequence ever. We need to build more schools because of overcrowding caused of all the wealthy people HAVING kids. Alas, a middle school in the area will have its band, orchestra, cross country (which they were #1 in) and such programs cut. 30-40 kids are in one elementary school classroom. Either stop f**king or pay for your kid's schooling.

Whoever wins in 2008 will have a mess to clean up.

I can barely even comprehend Bush winning the election. I would've thought America had learnt it's lesson by now... It's just beyond me.



Hmm. I wouldn't be so sure about that.

The problem with Britain is that there's not really any choice. The Tory's are looked down on a great deal - seen as too conservative, and a lot of faith had been lost in them in their last term. They're also been in a bit of disarray with their leadership, with it chopping and changing a lot more than Labour or Lib Dem.

As for the Liberal Democrats - they're just not strong enough a party for leading a country. I, personally, would like to see what they could pull out the hat if they got into power, but I don't think it's going to happen.

I would be shocked (pleased, possibly, but shocked) if Labour don't get another four years.

Sadly, it looks like things aren't going to change.