Image

It is a poor scan of a photocopy of something my boss found in WH Smith just before Christmas, in its natural colour the child is black. He showed it to me and asked me what I thought it was, I thought perhaps it was an odd advert for anti child abuse or bullying.

Turns out this was a christmas card.

Am I being paranoid that this was on sale? I can sort of see the intended joke though I don't find it amusing.

Are we becoming so liberal a society that what some might consider racism is sold freely in shops?

This is my first Issues thread and I can't really explain it as an issue, but I genuinly was shocked by it and wanted to discuss it.

WHERE was this sold? This is an absolute OUTRAGE. How can someone just DO THAT? I am so extremely... I really don't even know what I am. That is just so racist. You don't happen to have the address of the shop that it was sold in so I can write a letter do you? The joke was a racist joke and just isn't funny. And the baby is adorable and doesn't look anything like a shaved ape. The baby just looks cute. People are mean and rotten.

It was sold in WH Smiths. My boss is thinking of sending a letter to the Race Relations office about it.

What is a WH Smiths? Is it in England somewhere?

Its a large stationary, books, magazines etc shop.

That card is disgusting and terrible and--and--rage eliciting. I want to stomp on the words and send animal feces to whoever came up with it.

*breathes deeply*



This is puzzling, because where I am the general concensus from those who voted in dear Mr. Bush is that liberals are uptight politically correct flipfloppers. I consider myself to be liberal, in that I want to help the environment and have national health care and *gasp* a proper economy.

Back on topic: the card is bad! let us all hate the card!

What would your reaction of been if the baby was white?

I'd be screaming racism then, too. I grew up in a place where the black population is every bit as racist as the white. I grew up being called a "Cracker". Just because white against black racism is brought up more doesn't mean the flip side doesn't exist, or that it's acceptable.

Ummmm, I think this is a free speech issue. Rant and rave against them but legal action is ridiculous. I don't think you'll be able to get a large-scale boycott of the store going, it's too big.

Hmm. I'm going to probably throw in an opinion that's not too popular.

I really don't think it matters.

I'm pretty anti the ridiculous levels of political correctness nowadays. As a result, I've got quite an offensive sense of humour. Not because I'm racist, or bigotted, or homophobic, or whatever - but because I just don't care. "You're black? I don't care."; "You're gay? So?". If it's funny, it's funny. End of story. And, y'know what? Babies look like monkeys (and taste of chicken). I honestly don't believe a black person would look at that card and say 'Oh. I'm so offended!'. And I don't think it's intentionally racist (I don't even think it's racist at all). There would still be the same level of humour than if it was a white baby - it's just them not caring - not thinking that the colour of the babies skin matters. I personally think that's a Good Thing ™.

I just think the whole PC movement is doing nothing but segregate people further. Miss Froggie made a wonderful point - if it was a white baby, no-one would care. So why should we care that the baby's black? It makes no sense. PC is making people see racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc. where there is none.

I'm not a big fan of PCness either, especially when people think about changing the name of an Island to be PC. I think that at the rate which our government is trying to make everything more PC we'll be calling the Isle of Man the Isle of Persons or the Isle of Wight into the Isle of Colour any day now (ok that example was a bit extreme but the government is a bit too jumpy when it comes to all things PC).

If the baby was white I would have still been "Thats quite harsh towards the baby" calling it a shaved ape, but the joke would have been more apparent than if a black baby was used, also as I'm white I don't think that I'd care. Which makes me think that black people might not care as much actually. But the fact that ape/monkey carries the racist stigma it twists it and made me think the card was racist rather than just being "look how odd looking this baby is".

I don't get it

Thats just outrageous. Of course, if the baby had been white then maybe it would have been harder for the manufacturers to think up a more derogatory term.

That makes me feel sick. It was for Christmas-time, for crying out loud, surely that is a time if there is one to try to stop racism and such things?

All right, everybody, deep breaths.

Okay? Good.

I really don't see what's racist about the card.

As Frog points out, there's kind of a litmus test to check if a joke is racist. Change the race of the object of the joke; if the joke still holds, it's not racist. In this case, it passes. It may be a poor choice of words, because clearly it's ringing alarm bells in the heads of those whose sensors for such things are calibrated a bit on the sensitive side, but I can't see how it's racist. I mean, do you really think WH Smith's would be making racist jokes?

While it is kind of funny from the aspect that the kid does sort of look like a shaved ape, I can understand where some people would get upset. Mainly because of the use of terms such as "porch monkey" that some racist people use to describe black people. I don't think it was deliberately racist but it was pretty insensitive.

I agree with Forever Unknown. I'd say more but what I would have said has already been said and it just would have been redundant.

Um, you do know about monkey chanting at at football matches and the like don't you?

*wipes a tear*

How lush is my sister, really!!

I agree with everything there, 100%- all babies do look like monkeys (apart from mine, who looks like Heaven).

hehehe....baby monkey...


oh oh! KKK environmental causes, keep the Arctic white

I actually laughed when I saw that (before I read that the baby is actually black), mainly because the baby does look somewhat monkeyish. I think if I'd seen the actual card (in colour), I would have laughed initially too, before realising the possible racist undertones.

If there were no racist intentions, then a white baby would have probably been a better choice (it's not that hard to find a baby of any ethnicity that resembles a shaved ape) simply because there'd be less misunderstanding. I'm not sure if the card is meant to be racist, but it is very easy to see why it could be seen as such. Pretty stupid choice of baby really.

You know, I think that everyone is hyper PC nowadays and that they should chill a bit. Do I condone racism? No. It's disgusting (though the free speech issue is to be mentioned.) I agree with the South Park rule of thumb... if you make fun of EVERYBODY then you're not racist. So don't discriminate or hate, just point out the flaws with every stereotype and race group and everything is just fine.

Well, I haven't. And I've never heard any racist term involving the word 'ape' or anything similar, so just maybe, the person, (or people) involved in making that card hadn't either. I have to agree with Commie. I'm sorry, but I can't see how it is racist at all.

I asked today and when my boss showed the card to pretty much every black person between the card rack and the counter they said they were either outraged or disgusted except one girl who wasn't sure if ape counted as a racist slur. He couldn't recall exactly how many people he asked but "less than 10 and more than 5" so not the most helpful answer.

i find they all look like frogs... at least when they are lieing down and their belly seems to spread =oD

I'm with FU/Commie. (and I also this this PC bull has gone too far)


indeed, the viewer is the person who adds the racest connotations, in my opinion.

I think that the shaved baby (who looks white in the picture) still looks like a little ape. In fact, had I not been told that he was supposed to be black, I'd have never known and just chuckled a bit. People, it's no tthat bad. A little tougher skin would help in almost all of these situations (and I still don't condone racism. This just isn't it)

It would appear to be a rather ill-conceived joke.

In some ways it might be the sign of a more enlightened society that thankfully the majority of the population are now past the Victorian idea that African tribes were more closely related to apes than caucasians. That a card such as this is considered okay to be sold in a high-street shop might show that we are suitably distant from those times that an observation such as the similarity between babies and monkeys isn't immediately linked with bygone-era racism.

Given that the baby looks to be of pale skin when photocopied and the joke still works I would say that it's probably a little bit of hypersensitivity, but that this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's good to be alert to old 'values' slipping back into modern life, and it pays to be vigilant to get rid of the less desirable old ways, but in this case it seems quite harmless.

Personally I think babies all look like Winston Churchill.

Before I start, I'd like to apologise for a long thread. This matter has generated lots of very important posts and with them a myriad of ideas and concepts some of which I want to respond to.

Secondly - although I have quoted various people and then attacked their points / arguments - I do appreciate what they've posted. This board thrives on debate and discussion, and I similarly welcome as robust a critique of my own views. Please do not take my responses as being personal criticism against you, rather they are criticisms of some of the ideas raised.
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POLITICAL CORRECTNESS

1. What's so wrong with PC?

It seems to me that the term Political Correctness is gradually being corrupted by racists, sexists, and homophobes. People who want to continue to abuse others whom they hate; but first the abusers need to undermine the main obstacle in their path - the apparent restrictions on what they can say. This corruption has now filtered through to everyone else who now only complain about PCness, without acknowledging any positive attributes it may have.

Whenever people talk of "PC" its almost always in relation to how PC is going too far, how its destroyed free speech, how PC is making people see racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc. where there is none... the attacks go on and on ad infinitum.

But the reality is that Political Correctness is not the forced gagging of people or institutions. It is a much needed awareness that if you call someone a - "F***ing NIGGER!" that this is (i) going to upset them and (ii) is racist and morally wrong. PC is about ensuring that people are aware that if someone is female, they shouldn't be paid less than their male counterparts doing the same job. PC is about making people aware that if someone is homosexual - it doesn't mean that they are going to corrupt or rape your children, nor are they evil, nor are they any less capable of doing a job than a heterosexual person (all arguments put forward by Homophobes trying to justify their hatred and abuse). The list goes on, but people only see PC as bureaucracy, as unwanted red tape... until they face the hatred themselves and realise how painful it really is.

Sure, some people have gone overboard, but more often than not this has been due to their ignorance, and not the fault of Political Correctness itself. Some school in the UK banned it's annual nativity play in case it offended it's Muslim students. Who's fault is this? Political Correctness or the school for failing to realise that the Muslim students couldn't have cared less if the play went on or not? However, these cases are in the minority, instances like this are so infrequent that they hardly bare mentioning... not when you see how many instances of hate continue and go on despite PC 'destroying free speech'.
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2. Free Speech


Maybe this card isn't being (either intentionally or accidentally) racist.
Maybe this has been a misunderstanding as others have suggested, but your notion on free speech is an important one. Do you feel that if this card was intentionally racist, it should be published? Do you feel that complaining about this (or ranting and raving as you call it) is all we should be allowed to do? Should the Klan or the British National (Nazi) Party be free to say what they like? Even if it includes abusing minorities?

If you feel that free speech should NOT allow free and open racism fair enough, please disregard the following. If, however, you feel that freedom fo speech means saying whatever you want to, without limitation then I feel you misunderstand just how dangerous speech can be. In my opinion this is about rights. Why should a racist have the right to abuse someone? Shouldn't a person's right not to be abused be more important than someone's right to call them a nigger or paki?

Free speech in the UK is fairly limited on a number if issues:

1. Illegal to incite racial / religious violence
2. Illegal to racially abuse someone
3. Illegal to conspire to break the law
4. Illegal to breach the Official Secrets Act
5. You can be sued for Defamation and Slander
6. You can be sued for breaching contracts involving secrecy (eg Trade Secrets)
7. Personal information about you cannot be made available to anyone without your consent

And yet, we still live in a fairly free society. It's just that we have to decide which freedoms are more important; freedom to say whatever we want in EVERY SITUATION - or the freedom not be abused, the freedom not to have our human rights denied, the freedom to have some privacy, the freedom to trade securely, and the freedom to live in a country where we are safe.

Fair enough - some people believe that we should have FULL freedom of speech... The right to say what we like, without any chance of censure.

So NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) should be free to spread their political views that there shouldn't be a minimum age of consent? Paedophiles (who don't actually abuse kids) should be completely free to entice others to abuse little boys (or for that matter little girls)?

So the KKK / BNP / Combat 18 / Neo-Nazis should be free to give out the home address of non-whites to their mates and then incite them to set fire to the homes of innocent men women and children who don't happen to be white enough?

So someone should be free to go up to some random woman and start verbally abusing them? Or maybe a company director refusing to allow a woman to be promoted unless she sleeps with him?

So your bank manager should be free to give your bank details to anyone who wants them?

So a court clerk should be free to give out the address of a key witness in a major anti drugs trial?

Free speech is wonderful, but some aspects of it can be abused and thus need to be limited. There are things that are far more important than total free speech.
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3. Does Humour make Racism Okay?


So if a joke about burning niggers on crucifixes is funny, you think that makes it okay? Clearly you don't hate blacks, nor are you a member of the Klan... but have you ever stopped to consider how some jokes can actually upset people? Or does your I just don't care attitude on jokes also extend to the feelings of minority groups?

Have you ever had the bad luck of being the target of racial abuse? How about funny racial abuse? Does it make it better if all the neo-nazi's are laughing as they make jokes about the holocaust in front of some Jewish kids? I've seen that happen, and you know as far as jokes go they were funny. But they were also wholly offensive in their racist hatred, and I didn't laugh as my desire to vomit was far stronger.


How would you know?


If this card wasn't being intentionally racist, then fair enough. You've even suggested that it isn't even being accidentally racist. But the fact is this it is ambiguous enough to have caused debate on this site... I wonder what the reaction would have been if an ordinary reasonable black mother saw this card whilst pushing her newborn in a pram around WHSmiths? Perhaps she wouldn't see the racism, perhaps she wouldn't care, perhaps she would be offended? Should we allow publishers to just take that risk - or should we expect them to be more sensitive?


No PC isn't.

It isn't segregating people. Racism, Sexism, Homophobia - these are things that are being used to segregate people. Please don't blame Political Correctness for the hatred some people have for those who aren't the same colour, or gender, or religion etc. PC doesn't just exist for it's own sake. It is there because of the hatred that exists, and the problems PC causes are usually down to either:
(i) Racists getting annoyed that they feel they aren't free to racially abuse people any more, OR
(ii) Some idiots failing to grasp what PC is really about and going too far - usually without even coming close to protecting the minority groups they are supposed to be helping.

On the point of it being a white baby - if this card is trying to be racist, then it doesn't matter which racial group is being targeted - it is racist and therefore it is wrong, End of Story. The reason this particular card has raised concern is that the allusion to looking like an ape - is a well used racial slur against blacks. The fact that this card depicts a black child makes it look all the more like intentional racism... if it had been a white baby then the racial slur (which doesn't work against whites) wouldn't be there, hence no-one caring.

I also dispute your last point totally. Some people wanting to avoid racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc can take things too far, though this is their own stupidity or lack of understanding and is acutally quite rare and being PC has not caused this. PC is about realising that there is racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc and that is must be stopped, it is about realising that bigotry is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. The unfortunate reality is that racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc does exist, it is there, and Political Correctness is simply trying to undermine it. People don't imagine these things because of being PC.
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4. The Government and PCness


Without focusing on your flippant isles examples, perhaps you can show us when the Government has gone too far? (seriously I'd like to see where the PCness they've engaged in has gone over the top). The Daily Mail, the Sun and the Torygraph are constantly bemoaning how PC the Government is... without actually showing much in the way of evidence. Yes this government (as well as previous governments) have done loads to prevent racism and sexism... but is this really such a bad thing? Has Britain been forever blighted because it's now illegal to deny someone a job because of their skin colour or gender?

Just as a point to note, the proposed religious incitement bill was proposed and is designed to prevent Muslim clerics in the UK from preaching hatred against Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism. It was in direct response to Abu Hamza at the Finsbury Park mosque. Yes the legislation could go too far, but that's just speculation without having seen the facts. The reality is that Islam (which has been effectively and unfairly demonised by the Western media) could do with the protection of the law. So could too Judaism and to an extent Christianity. The difficulty will be over censorship, and how to avoid the curbing of genuine and fair criticism of any religion. This is a matter which the bill seeks to address.


I toatlly agree with your above observations.
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5. Stereotypes and Chillin'



So how far is too far? Everyone should chill, what about the racists - how about getting them to chill, then maybe PC will become redundant and go away.

If you hold equally disgusting views of everyone that makes it okay then? So if I were to put up a poster that denied the holocaust near a Jewish cemetery, but also put up an anti-Pope poster near my church's graveyard - then that would make it all okay?

If I go up to a black and say "according to the stereotype you are thick, aggressive and likely to rob me" then this is alright, so long as I agree with the negative stereotypes against half-casts like myself? Will that make this black person feel any better? I've just labeled them - and given the reality that criminal activity, agression and stupidity seem to be fairly equally distributed amongst all races, it's more than likely that I've got it completely wrong.

What about the whites? I don't really know what the negative stereotypes are about the whites... does that mean I should make some up? Or does it mean that they really are, on the whole, a faultless race?

The way I see it, stereotypes are all a total load of shite. They are pitiful attempts to compartmentalise people based on their skin colour, which I think is shameful. Human beings are individuals – in case you hadn't noticed. Perhaps we should try to learn more about someone than just their skin pigmentation, before we make up our minds about them.

Racism can be viewed in two respects:

i. The hateful stupidity of the racist person and
ii. The upset it causes the person on the receiving end...

So just becasue you are prepared to upset everyone, and that you don't just hate one race individually, it still means that you upset a person, which I feel is wrong.

I didn't know anything about it being rasist until I read these post.
When I first looked at it, I thought about how mean it was to make fun of the baby like that. I honestly didn't think a thing about the race of the baby...

Two minor factual points:

The law against incitement to religious hatred is not yet on the books. Personally I hope it never gets on the books, but that's a point for another thread.

Additional to the above, the government can serve a press establishment with a D-notice, banning them from reporting on a particular subject or from giving out specific information.

I didn't read all of the very long post, just the stuff that was in response to what I said. I'm lazy. But this is very long.



Yes. Quite simply.

I don't care about minority groups. Why? Because it's a non-issue. I absolutely do not care. I care as much about someone being black than they would about me being white. I care about a person's feelings. Their colour, creed, religion, etc. does not have an impact on that. I just people on one basis and one basis alone - whether or not they're decent.

It's not the actions themselves that are Ok. Burning anyone on a crucifix - black, white, pink, blue - is obviously not. But if someone can twist that into something witty, I will laugh. And you'd be shocked at the kind of appalling jokes I make - it really is rather twisted. But I think the proof of me being mildly vigilant about these kind of things is that I have never made such jokes on here, or any other forum.

If jokes upset people, I'm sorry, but that's being over-sensitive. They can get offended once I've actually acted on it. Which I wouldn't. There's the difference. Acting on it, behaving towards people in that manner, believing there's this whole big difference between "You" and "Them" - that's the bigotry. Not a joke.



I think you're taking a point and somewhat milking it. This isn't about neo-Nazi-ism. That's a different matter entirely.

Have I been a victim of racial abuse? No. I've been a victim of other types of abuse. And when it was funny, I laughed.



Because if it was a white baby, I wouldn't have been offended. Why shouldn't this work the other way around? This is precisely my point - are black people all of a sudden from a different planet? Are they getting offended at things that, turned on it's head, wouldn't offend anyone else? That way of thinking is, quite frankly, laughable.

All of a sudden, with the PC movement, white people are telling minorities what to be offended by. A member of my family works in a place where the word 'black' can't even be used. Would a black person be offended by the word 'black'? No. It's ridiculous.



No. PC is drawing attention to groups that we needn't be fretting over. PC may even been fuelling the fire somewhat.

The way to be dealing with it is balance. PC started off as a good idea and then went far too extreme. It started as a way to get rid of bigotry and now all I see it as doing is saying "you can't say X because Y group will be offended" - except Y probably doesn't care, just like everyone. Other groups (I can't be arsed with the gender/religion/colour/etc bit anymore, so I'll just say 'groups' from now on) are not these hyper-sensitive hate-mongering people who are offended at a drop of a hat, which is what the level of PC nowadays is suggesting, which could be the cause of further segregation. They're just like me, or you, or anyone. I don't get offended at someone saying 'white', I wouldn't be offended by that being a white baby - I wouldn't even notice. I don't get offended at Englishman, Irishman, Scottishman jokes. I don't get offended at people taking this p*ss because I'm British, or white, or atheist.



Babies look like monkeys, dammit! I don't care what colour the baby is - it's a monkey!

But if it was being racist, it wouldn't have been on sale. WH Smith - not that stupid.

Did anyone perhaps consider that a black person made that card? Is it still racist then?

[quote]PC is about realising that there is racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc and that is must be stopped, it is about realising that bigotry is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. The unfortunate reality is that racism/homophobia/bigotry/etc does exist, it is there, and Political Correctness is simply trying to undermine it. People don't imagine these things because of being PC.[quote]

PC is undermining freedom of speech. PC is drawing our attention to bigotry and I think there is going to be one Hell of a backlash against that, because there always is against extremist points of view. This therefore completely negates the point of PC. It is also (which I've already said) paints these groups to be these hypersensitive people, who are so vulnerable to words and phrases that they must be banished from our language. There are always going to be people who want to victimise others - the PC movement has not changed that yet and will certainly not do it now. So, therefore, those that like to pick at the vulnerable are going to think "Oh! They're an easy target" and continue the bigotry. Again, negating the point of this extreme Political Correctness.

PC Language

SHort- Vertically challenged
Tall - Vertically challenging
Whitebaord- Dry wipe board
Black board - chalk board
Thin- Horizontally challenged
Fat- horizontally challenging
Genius- Intellectually challenging
Stupid - Intellectually challenged


Over the years I have heard these terms used in serious conversation. However PC has become a joke in itself. The amount of times I have said things that I consider to be simple observations of what is going on around me and started the sentence with "I don't mean to be racist but..." I agree with FU. Minority groups generally don't care. How many black kids will call each other "Nigger" Yet if I am talking about racism in class I have to say "the N word" just in case I offend any one!
I myself didn't find that card racist. I didn't think it was a black child or an asian child or a white child. I thought it looked like it had done something in it's nappy (diaper)! Not particularly festive though!

Sorry that probably came across as a rant and may or may not make complete sense

Schools are required to be so politically correct it's gotten silly. Everyone's brilliant so that no-body is. Classes are tiered by how challenging they are, and some public schools have gotten so ridiculous about naming the tiers even the foundations classes are for "above average" students. They give classes irrelevant or unfitting names to avoid getting sued, and everyone knows it's a joke. Sometimes political correctness just becomes farcical.

Sometimes I think we keep prejudices alive by drawing attention to them through hypersensitivity. Wouldn't it be better if everyone relaxed a bit?

Hear hear, artist. I remember one time in my Honors English class, we were discussing some sort of Anglo Saxon poetry. There was one man described as "dark" and the teacher asked us what we thought that meant (hidden in the shadows, wearing dark clothing, evil, etc) and one person actually said "Maybe he's African-AMERICAN." It hurt me. Physical pain, man. Worse than even that was the teacher said "I never thought of that before. Maybe he is African American."

Maybe I should sue for emotional distress.

I fully agree with FU,

PC is by its very nature rasist, sexist and obsessed with peoples sexuality.

Anything created in fear and predjudice needs to create fear and predjudice in order to survive.

It points out as many differences as possible, and trys to blow these differences out of proportion.

..............Just my opinion

I think people have the fundamental right to be racist if they choose to be. Just like they have the right to be a jerk or a homophobe or a total moron.

And while it's hard I think yes, pedophiles and their ilk have the right to free speech. Those who listen also have the right to call them sick and depraved and to watch them like hawks because they're dangerous and the law should give them no protection from public disdain.

I also believe though that while it may fall under the province of freedom of expression it could be banned without violating the U.S. Constitution. I'm a firm believer that the Freedom of Speech is mostly a defense of political ideas not the protection of smut. I think a community has the right to keep pornography off billboards and out of schools and places of public meeting. I would argue that they also have the right to keep it off their access to the Internet but that's unenforceable.

I don't think anything is going to change until we lose this obsession with racial distinction. I live in America and my family has for many generations. But I'm not trying to maintain my German or British culture obsessively. As long as Hispanics, Blacks, and others try to make themselves different than everyone else (purely on basis of ancestry) how can they not expect to be lumped together. One of my friend's favorite sayings is that "Stereotypes exist for a reason". Until that reason goes away, the stereotype will endure. I don't want to be culturally unique (and hence like all the rest of my culture). If I want to be unique I want it to be my choice.

I think PCness can lead to a job being potentially dangerous as well as possibly being racist/sexist etc.

I can understand a policeman's (sorry policeperson's) job is hard, as is a fireman's job. Physically enduring where there is the every chance that they might be injured or even die in some cases. But they are paid to take that risk and I for one are very thankful. There used to be a set height and build in which you couldn't become a policeman unless you matched that catagory.

This is simply so that they hired the people who best suited the job, simple. But this was considered sexist as many women were not of the standard height needed to get into the force so the height was lowered. I'm fine with this as women should be allowed into the force but then it became PC to allow those who weren't suited to the job into the police force. I'd rather have someone who would be more likely in out running a theif or being able to force and arrest on someone than a 5'3 guy who isn't more demanding than "Can you please put your hands behind your back or I'll have to call for backup."

I saw this as a police car tried to arrest a guy who had mugged an elderly lady in Covent garden. The guy was at least a foot shorter than the man and quite overweight and a female policewoman in the car. I'd just rather have guys who look/act/are what the job demands.

I think most of you that have posted since Kitten are missing the point somewhat. To be Political Correct is simply avoiding saying something that could be offensive to someone and having a lack of bigoted views. That is what's fundamental about PCness, and it is far from a bad thing.

However, I'll agree that institutions have taken PC too far. That is not to say that PC has gone too far in itself. The school that didn't put on a nativity play took PC too far because its muslim pupils (and their families) probably didn't care either way (provided they weren't forced to participate). Any offence caused by the play if it had taken place would be unjustified, and politically incorrect in itself.

Political correctness is not a bad thing in itself, it is just over-applied in response to the vocal hypersensitive extremist types. I really fail to see how being considerate enough to avoid causing offence to a reasonably sensitive person is too much to ask.

I was offended when I saw the card, because I found it to be racist. Since I posted, there have been a lot of interesting opinions. When artist.unknown started talking about PC in schools, I realized my agreement with PC is very patchy.

My school has "Integrated Math"- math a grade level below, "Interactive Math"- math six months below, "Math Honors" -normal math "Math Honors Advanced"-for students who are 6 months ahead of normal math curriculum (as far as Regents taking goes) and "Math Honors Accelerrated"-students taking math of the next grade up.

I'm in the mildly-smart class, and I really want to be in Math. Furthermore, I want the Accelerated Students (both are capitilized because They're Important) and the Honors students to take Math as well. I really don't mind what level is taught in class.

My english class is Language Arts. My bio class is Living Environment. My history class is Global Studies. My gym class is Physical Education, taught by Physical Education Experts. My taco crumbs are swept up by the Custodial Administration.

I have a friend who is Jamaican. She gently reminds people who refer to her as African-American that she is neither. Generally, she gives them a smile and says, "No, actually, I'm black. You can call me Jamaican if it's more comfortable."

Someone in my drama class (Theatre Arts Course One) said that he used the word "nigger" all the time to describe black people; that it didn't strike him as offensive. He was white. This bothered me. It also bothered two black students in my class, who asked him if he would mind not using that word in their presence. This struck me as perfectly understandable, but the boy proceeded to argue that the word is used among most black people to mean something like friend, or brother.

I realized that my defense to this argument was not very strong: I felt that the black students had the "right" to use the word because of what their race went through 400-200 years ago. Though slavery was terrible (I am NOT condoning slavery), no one alive today was a slave. Should black people claim the right to the word because of what their ancestors went through? Through this argument, I could say that since my great-grandfather suffered while an Irish immigrat in America, I should be allowed to call my friends "micks". This is flawed in that "mick" is not used today and if it is, it doesn't mean much, if anything. Most likely people would giggle at its usage.

The n-word was used by white slave owners and (white) racists after slavery was done away with. {{As a sidebar, few people know that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the states opposing the North--like taking away priveleges from naughty kids. This is another thing that bothers me}} I consider it a racial slur and rude; therefore I don't use it. My personal opinion is that the word shouldn't be used by anyone of any race, but I understand the feelings of those who want to detoxify the word and give it new meaning. Anyone else?

I think that something that incredibly racist is digusting, but one thing I will say is, whoever actually had the nerve to say that they would cry racism if the baby was white, they're just straight up lying. You wouldn't even think to identify that it was a racist joke. The card targets blacks specifically and only, which makes it all the more appalling.

Lying? No, I was not. I would still scream racism if the baby was white. I'm quite familiar with anti-white sentiment. You'd be surprised how many anti-white people there are in South Carolina. Have you ever been pushed around, made fun of, and called a "cracker" simply because you're white? I have, and so have many of my friends. It's one reason why I wanted to move away from there so much. I didn't want to continue to live in a place where I was judged by the color of my skin and where my friends were also judged by the color of theirs. I didn't want to live in a place where "spic", "nigger", "sand-nigger", "chink", and yes "cracker" were words so commonly used that they were barely noticed in the sea of hatred.

It's a pity. So many people trying to build a wall around themselves to keep out the people who are different. It makes me want to cry in shame.

/semi off-topic

Its not really racist, i dont know. putting somone of a diffrent origin on a card with a bad joke doesnt make somthing racist.

It is a very bad joke tho, not funny at all.

See, that I don't get. I can kind of see how it could be considered racist since the baby's black, as "ape" and similar pejoratives have been and are being applied to black people. But as far as I know, nobody has ever used "ape" as a racist insult directed at whites. It's an insult, but not a racist one, IMO.

I see your point commie. I guess the main thing here is whether you realise that it could be considered racist. I can see why some peopl might find it offensive but only when I think about it. I didn't see that the child was black so maybe I can't really say much here but I just saw a baby with a grimace on its face that looked like it had smelt something bad. A picture of a baby with that sort of look on its face is generally funny because you know what is going on really!!

Babies look like monkeys. Especially very young, very chubby babies.

The card would have worked whether it was a black, white, yellow or red baby. (is it PC to called Asians yellow?) They all look like monkeys. And! another thing! Do you know how difficult it is to tell the ethnicity of a very very young baby? Well it is. At least for me.

Anywho, the card manufacturer probably would have been better served using a white male upper middle class baby as the butt of its joke. But frankly, when I saw the card (I read it before I read Mr. T's post) I thought it was a white child and I still laughed.

The day when we have threads that ask if we're too "relaxed" in our humour is the day when we have to seriously look at how far political correctness has gone.

I wouldn't have considered the card racist -- although, if the intention of the joke was to mock black babies for looking like apes, or the some sort of weird Eurocentric thinking that "blacks look like apes," then I would be up in PC arms. After all, I'm dating a woman who has super-sensitized me to PC issues (love ya, honey) and I get offended by people being un-PC a lot, mostly because it's done out of ignorance (calling First Nation's peoples "Indians" and the like). However, my personal reaction to the joke was -- wow, that's not really funny at all. Before I even realized it was a black baby. I just thought the joke was in poor taste. *shrugs* I thought the baby was kinda cute.

Interestingly, my big sister thought I was a rabbit when she first saw me "What is it mummy? a rabbit?" course, she was only 2 at the time...

They're native Americans dammit!

Course, we have no defense so we keep a stiff upper lip and soldier on (but we're crying inside)....I say we, I'm hardly middle class....though I'm not really any class....I'm classless!! hurrah!