http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/ful.../7502/1221?ehom


Now stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't it possible to kill someone with most things?

You can strangle someone with a shoelace. Ban shoelaces.

You can scoop out someones eye with a spoon. Ban spoons.

You can beat someone to death with anything vaguely heavy. How about a sock filled with sand? Ban socks! Or sand!

You can stab someone with a bottle. Ban bottles.

The list goes on and on... simply outlawing them won't solve anything, if it's even possible to do so. Not to mention that these things are needed in everyday life. It would be very hard to run a kitchen without a selection of knives. Or even if you worked as a handyman, gardener, etc.

If someone wants a weapon to permit a crime it is easy. I support banning carrying threatening objects in public, but an outright ban seems rather ludicrous to me. Anyone with a room temperature IQ can find a way to kill someone with anything. You don't even need a weapon that isn't your body...

Now saying that, the rising trend in violence is an issue but it has been one for thousands of years. This isn't anything new, I'm not even convinced it has risen as drasticly as the news likes to shock us with. However 'initiatives' like these are simply trying to bandage the wound once the damage has been done. Try to solve why this happens in the first place, not just make it harder to happen. Because ANYONE can find ways around stop-gap measures like these.

I'm sure they would ban shoelaces if enough people started being killed by them. Knife crime is rising as a favourite weapon for many naughty buggers out there. I've been 'mugged' by someone with a knife, and it changes the situation a bit. In a normal situation i'd take my chances with resisting but when theres a knife being prodded at my side I'd be a little bit more caucious.

I heard this on the news a few nights ago, they were trying to encourage the use of rounded edge knives and ban all pointed knives. It seemed really pointless since anyone can get knives and this inititive is more to relieve the public's worries rather than solve anything. I thought that it would be easier to only let people who work in the cooking industry use them, or do they suspect that people who work for hours in restaurants preparing food are the ones going out at night and mugging people at knife point?

Look at it this way: When was the last time you actually used the pointed end of a knife for anything? I know I never use the point, only the blade (which can't be so easily used to attack someone as pointed knife - slashing is harder than stabbing). The only exception to this is cheese knives, and on most designs, the forked bit at the end points upwards - again, not very easy to use as a weapon.

The problem with knives is that they're so easily used as weapons, compared to the other items you mentioned, Cal. Think of your regular kitchen knife. You don't need to swing it, so you can use it in small spaces, you don't need any particular degree of strength to jab it between someone's ribs, and it's pretty easily concealed inside a coat.

I personally wouldn't mind if pointed kitchen knives were only available to professional cooks etc. It makes no difference to normal people as far as actually using them for the intended purpose, just means that there are a few less dangerously pointy objects in circulation.

Unfortunately, banning the sale of pointed knives won't make much difference for a few years, until all the knives currently in kitchen cupboards have been replaced with knives with rounded ends.

You might call it nanny-statism, but if it doesn't stop people from doing something innocent (cooking) in an attempt to stop something illegal (stabbing) it really can have nothing but a positive effect.

Erm.., I have a set of 3 kitchen knives. A big nasty looking carving knife, a smaller all purpose cooks knife and a fruit/peeling knife.
I use the point of the knives all the time, the bigger ones I use the point when boning meat, you need to get the point into the joint to 'pop' it, and to get through the skin of stuff like a pork roast to score through the fat etc... the smaller knife you use the point for taking the 'eyes' out of potatoes, for starting off when segmenting oranges, all sorts of uses.

Hmm. I use the point on my kitchen knife rather often actually.

Opening evil plastic shrink wrap packaging is one example. Stick the blade in and slice it open. Not something you can really use the flat side for (maybe I should just...not bite my nails or something).

Cutting onions is another example, stick the end in then bring the knife round to slice it. If you try and cut with the flat edge the knife slides off scarily close to ones fingers.

As much as I don't like the idea of being stabbed it really doesn't sound like a very practical solution.

I can see the problem and the concern, but it's hard to see the solution. The article mentions "long pointed knives" versus "short pointed knives", and I can see how the long ones could make it easier to cause more damage, but couldn't one manipulate a shorter knife to do that same thing? I don't do a lot of cooking, so I can't say much about the value of a longer pointed knife.



I don't think you did that on purpose, which makes it all the better, but that is a nice pun right there.

Even if you banned pointed knives, it wouldn't take very much to make a non-pointy knife pointy. And even then, you don't need metal to make a knife. Shivs do in a pinch. A criminal will take what he/she can get and use at the moment.

As for me, I use knives all the time. Carrying them around is handy, you never know when you might need one.

How about banning anything which may be used as a replacement for knives in murder - we'll ban screwdrivers, and hammers, and forks. In fact, we should make everything safer, we'll pass a law requiring everything to be covered in bubble wrap.

A stroke of genius. When all our vehicles and buildings and other technology fall into disrepair and explode/collapse/crash from lack of any tools for maintenance we can ban them too.

I think they were wrong about the Big Crunch theory - it doesn't apply to the universe it applies to society and this is the event that will throw us into reverse gear.

*nods authoritatively and wanders off cackling inanely*

Like I said before, knives are particularly easy to use as weapons, probably moreso than any other utensil or tool, hence their popularity amongst criminals.

Screwdrivers require a considerable amount of strength to be really damaging, unless the attacker was going for a vulnerable spot, such as the temples of the skull, in which case, quite a bit of accuracy (and luck) would be required.
Forks aren't particularly effective as weapons for the same reason as screwdrivers.

To use a hammer as a weapon, it has to be swung. This can only realistically be done from behind on an unsuspecting victim, which means it's not suitable for mugging, (where causing physical harm to the victim is usually a threat, not a primary intention) as it's fairly hard not to get their attention.

Remember, premeditated murder is not something that any preventative measure (short of something out of Minority Report) can do much to stop. What getting rid of pointed knives would prevent, however, is heat-of-the-moment stabbings, such as domestic rows or burglaries that turn nasty.

If someone is intent enough on possessing a pointy knife that they'd sharpen a round ended one to a point, it's not as if there's much that can be done to stop them finding a weapon of some description, is there?

It's not an issue of banning anything that potentially could be used as a weapon - you could include anything in that category. The reason why knives are singled out is because they are so popular among criminals, and that there is little practicle application for pointed knives that can't be satisfied by rounded ends or other common (but less dangerous) kitchen utensils.

I do agree pointed knives have no use that a smaller or round tipped knife cant be used for, but as people have stated people will simply find other weapons.
Also a ban will be difficult to enforce, their are allready thousands of knives in circulation, so people will still be able to get hold of one easily if they want

I suggest you try reading my post again - you'll discover that I've already said that.

As for knives in circulation, typical kitchen knives have a life-span of about 10 years. That means that 10% of pointy knives will be replaced with round-ended knives each year. Even taking into account that some knives will stay in homes after they've been replaced, that's pretty good.

Okay, let me make this clear - there are many, many, many sharp objects which are necessary, pointy, and can be used with criminal intent, which SHOULD NOT BE BANNED, knives being one of them. I use a box cutter at work, and we have a person who deals with cheeses who needs pointy knives - my father has a lot of tools, including awls, which are nothing but a point, electric powered drills, which could cause some real damage, hatchets and axes, utility knives, and all manner of small, powerful, electric tools that can easily rip through skin, and cause harm. My point is that even if knives are eliminated, even if that were possible, criminals would have no real shortage of weapons. As for the threat of violence - I think that someone standing in front of me with a hatchet, or a sawsall, would be very intimidating. Plus, if you want something sharp, you could always just break some glass and use a large shard of that.

I don't think that it should take too much strength. I mean, when I was 10 I managed to stab my sister using a blunt pencil. It just takes a bit of adrenaline.

I think the ban is being unreasonable. There are so many knives in circulation with pointed ends and you can't go round every householdremoving them. Besides, why should the whole nation be hindered just because a few idiots cannot control themselves when around everyday objects?

Hmm, quite a few of the arguments used here could be used to justify lifting the ban on handguns here. Out of interest, who here would support that?

But why are handguns useful in everyday life? We seem to have managed so far.

Do I have to go through every single one of your example and explain why they're not so easily utilised as weapons, compared to knives?

Box Cutters (at least in the form of Stanley Knives) are not half as lethal as long kitchen knives. A box cutter would barely reach any vital organs, and it has plenty good reason for being sharp. Also, the box cutters i've used have springs in that, combined with the impact of stabbing someone, would make it rather difficult to keep the blade extended if used to stab.

I've already explained cheese knives. There is a design of cheese knife on which the pointy fork bit on the end points upwards, instead of straight along the blade, making it difficult to stab someone with. I can't see any real reason why cheese knives need to be designed in any way other than this.

Awls, hatchets, drills etc are not something typically kept in the kitchen or immediately to hand. I have already stated, at least twice, that a ban on pointed knives would only have a significant effect on incidents where a knife is the closest weapon to hand. Someone with the intent on causing harm to another will find something to use as a weapon regardless of how many bans there are on potential weapons. If such items are in a shed or workshop, they're not likely to be used in a row or when there's a burglar in your home, are they?

As for drills being a suitable weapon for the likes of muggers... I can't see it. I'm sure drills have been used for that purpose, but they're too noisy and bulky to be used or carried with any subtlety. And I can imagine people bursting into laughter when being confronted with a drill, when they were expecting a gun

Hatchets are very intimidating. They're also not very subtle, compared to a knife, and they need to be swung. Victims are more likely to take their chanches by blocking or dodging a hatchett. There's next to sod all you can do against someone holding a knife to your ribs unless you're trained in some sort of self-defence techniques.

Once again, with the glass, you're talking about someone that is specifically looking to find some sort of weapon with the intent of doing something illegal with it. How many times do I have to say that this ban would prevent knives being used in heat of the moment fights and would do little to prevent muggings? Besides that, if you're going to stab someone, you probably wouldn't want to choose a weapon which will rip your own hand to shreds in the process, assuming you've got enough brain cells for a party.


Edit: As for handguns, I'd have no problem with them being allowed, under the condition that they remain locked up in shooting clubs, and not allowed to be removed.

The difference is that guns, specifically handguns, are designed only to kill people, and they are extremely effecient. Knives are not designed specifically to kill. If someone buys a handgun, they are expecting to hurt a person with it. If someone buys a knife they are expecting to cut something with it.

That really seems just too controlling to me...


If you ban knives where does it stop?

Finally got round to reading the article and these things immediatly sprang out at me:



The only knives I have ever cut myself with are round-ended bread knives, and they do cut well, if you keep them sharp. I do handle sharp ended knives regularly and yes, it is easier to harm someone with one, but they are useful.



Only if you like useing blunt knives. I sharpen my knives, and the kitchen knives to razor sharpness, and no-one has been seriously injured yet. Sure there have been a few accidental cuts here and there but nothing serious.



Cutting melon, something that is very difficult without a long, pointed knife.



Only if you don't take care of them, I have kitchen knives that are twice that age and are sharp and as good as the day they were made.

As to banning pointed knives, I don't think it would be a good idea. Would penknives or Swiss-army type knives still be allowed? Because they are useless if they are not pointed. How long would the maximum lenght be for pointed knives?

I do cook and prepare meat using long, pointed, kitchen kinves. And I do use the point for things like boning and cutting fat off and such. I also use it for opening packets, yes I could use scissors but I've already got the knife in my hand, why make it more inconveniant for me?

I could be wrong here but I seem to remember there being a limit to the length of a knife you could actually carry. I seem to remember my dad getting hassle for his Swiss Army knife, the blade wasn't long enough to be a problem (3 inches sticks in my mind for some reason*), but the blade lock seemed to bother them.

*shhh...this is a serious thread!!

Yeah, you cannot carry in public any non-folding blade over 8cm, or any folding blade over 10 cm. Or any folding blade that locks in position.

I agree with what Dave says. A knife is a general tool. Most people who use knives probably don't attack other being with them (in out society anyway).

I remember seeing some (fictional) police thing on TV a while back, and it had a nice point in it. If you wanted to defend your home, and you wanted a gun, what would frighten a criminal more: a pistol, or a shotgun?

Thought so.

Handguns can be hidden. You don't need to hide a weapon to defend yourself with it. I realise there could be situation where the case is otherwise, and I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'd rather have someone scared that they're going to become part of the decor than actually shoot them.

I used to work for Sainsburys and Homebase and was trained fully on the whole sale of blades thingy. It is currently illegal in this country to sell ANY bladed object to a person under the age of 16. This includes kitchen knives, screw drivers, tack hammers, Bulb planters, scissors etc. I found this rather ludicrous as I happened to be doing CDT at the time but was unable to buy a pack of screw drivers to continue my homework at home.

Dan makes some very good points on the whole thing. I agree that it probably would help with domestic violence and such. But with criminals, well, you can ban all you want, but they'll get it if they want it.

And I agree with Greeneyes. Shotguns would be more effective in home defense. Especially when you think about someone actually breaking into your house. If you have little to no firearms training, how hard would it be to hold a pistol steady and fire at someone who's breaking in, while afraid? Ignore the fact that you shouldn't own one if you have little training. The scattering of shot from a shotgun makes a target easier to hit and there's little chance of it going through walls to hurt others you don't intend.

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Pointy knives are useful, and a ban on them will only take them away from peole who want to use them legitemately. It may but down domestic violence and muggings etc however; a mugger will just sharpen a round ended knife or purchase one illegaly. Damage just as bad can be caused with a screw driver or an aul (I know this because my grandfather once stuck a screwdriver through his hand by accident). It may reduce violent crime by a certain level, but not to a level sufficient to justify banning pointy knives.

Pointy knives are not just useful in the kitchen but are used by artists to cut canvas and as part of the making of ceramic art work. Don't tell me they can use different tool for the same purpose because they can't. If people really wanted a dangerous weapon all they would have to do would be to walk into a school art/DT/electronics/science lab. Do you suggest we ban those subjects?

It's always been illegal to carry knives without a very good reason. That's the most efficient way to keep knife crime down.

Thing is you can actually get a license for a shot gun. If I had my way I would ban all guns but legalising weapons that can be concealed would just make it much easier to comit gun crimes. You can argue that people determined to commit these crimes would do so anyway but why make it easier for them?

It's important to draw a distinction when talking about pointed knives. The typical pointed kitchen knife is in excess of 6" long, which can do someone some serious damage. I'll admit that the points of knives can be useful, but that doesn't require every kitchen knife to be equipped with one. In my (revised) view, pointed kitchen knives should be restricted in their length. It's simply not necessary to have 6" of blade behind the point on your knife 2 or 3" is plenty for almost any kitchen based purpose.




Right, because it's so obvious when someone is carrying a knife on their person.

I know this is a wee bit off topic but...aren't baseball bats banned in the UK as well? I think banning guns was a horrible idea. If the cops can't carry guns and criminals still have them, that's a crippling factor to the law. In the US (notably the south) knives run wild. The reason being? HUNTING SEASON!! My grandfather carries atleast three (visible, well locked) hunting rifles, and a big knife (for skinning). Is there no deer hunting in the UK? And if there is... how are those poor hunters gonna skin the deer or boar or fox or whatever it is that's in season? And going off on a limb here...knives are a part of our history..ever since the tool age we've been able to co-exist with knives... and now that we've "evolved" so much, we can't handle them? Another thing, we have a knife as a family heirloom, about 10 inches long, and how are we supposed to give that up? It's not like you're gonna have "The Knife Nazis" come to every house, but if the law gets called to the house (a robbery, or something), and you still have your 5th anniversary knife set on the counter, a cop could bust you for that, which is retarded.

I also found that these items were banned...from The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988 (Information is copyright of the below and copied from the www.hmso.gov.uk)
These are the weapons that I find laughable to be banned.

butterfly knives
blow guns

There are also weapons from Japan that are banned ("kusari gama" , being a length of rope, cord, wire or chain fastened at one end to a sickle). Why ban this seriously? How can you even begin to conceal such a weapon? Though, it did say something about if it's over 100-years-old then it's an antique which I guess is okay to have.

The police can carry guns, just not all the time. In fact, in recent years, lots more police have been appearing with sub machine guns, so it's not as if they never carry guns unless they're responding to a report of someone with gun. Besides which, it's pretty rare for police to get shot in the UK, much rarer than in the US, from what I understand.



Deer hunting is illegal in the UK. I'd imagine that the reason knives and guns 'run wild' in the US is the reason your homicide rates 'run wild' too.




I'd love to know where you managed to find either of those weapons mentioned within the text of the act. I searched through it and couldn't find any mention of any specific items banned by the act. Also, the act does not restrict the ownership of bladed items, but being in possession of them in a public place. Also bear in mind that anyone found to be carrying a potentially offensive weapon can use proof that they had legitimate cause for doing so in their defence.

As for the Kusari Gama, what possible legitimate reason could anyone have for carrying one of these around in public?

Cheese knives are safer? Or breadknives? Ones with a rounded tip? Since when?!?!?

It's just as easy to stab, gouge, cut, slice, and tear flesh with them as with a pointed knife.

With the rounded cheese knive type, just hold the blade so the curve is pointing down. Now stab at someone in a overarm downward motion. THat blade is going straight through flesh. Clothes MAY be able to stop it, but not many people wear rigid clothing on their head and neck.

Fishing for large, armoured fish, obviously.



Maybe. But D said he was talking more about domestic spats that get ugly. I'm not an expert on this, but I imagine people would be more likely to slice than stab. And with a cheese knife, to be honest, the only part of it you could hurt someone with is the small spikes, and they point off at another angle. You could, I suppose, manage to stab someone with them with a hard enough swing, but they're designed to pick up cheese. They're pretty blunt, so you'd have to swing fast, and, worst case scenario - small 1cm deep wound. Not really enough to kill someone.

I've managed to jab one clean into a melon, which harder than human flesh.

Hell, I can do that with a common pencil.

And I am not exceptionally strong by any stretch of the imagination.

ANd people are not more likely to slace than stab. People are more likely to do something that gets results. No more, no less. People don't stab with a baseball bat in the heat of the moment, they swing it. People are able to realise the best ways to impliment simple tools.

From the BMJ article:

When the government banned handguns they only did one thing - criminalise a section of the UK populace who used handguns legally. It did not reduce gun crime. In fact the £20+ Million spent on compensation would have been better spent on helping police forces across the UK to tackle the steady rise in gun crime - where people who didn't own hand guns legally (and never did) went on a serious rampage. Shortly after the Act came in to force - London faced one of the worst speight of gang related fighting in its history - with hundreds of gun related incidents including up to 40 killings. As has been stated above - banning something that is currently legal will only serve to hinder law abiding citizens and not actually deter criminals. As a law abider myself I cannot purchase a handgun, but if I was to go into the right pub in Camden I could buy a Russian Makarov or Tokarev (military issue Russian handguns) for as little as £250.

Banning certain knives will not in any way shape or form lessen the very serious problem of knife attacks in the UK. Better policing will help.

The current law allows limited ownership of bladed weapons, if that is changed then criminals who use them will simply buy them illegally OR use kitchen knives. Ban certain long point-ended kitchen knives and they'll just use shorter just as lethal kitchen knives. Most knife attacks in the UK aren't with Crocodile Dundee style massive hunting knives - they're usually with smaller concealable weapons that can be taken out quickly and covertly used and then either re-hidden or easily disposed of.

The best way is not to inconviniece cooks and chefs, but to spend more on better policing of high risk areas, spend more on better education on the harm caused and risks associated with carrying a knife, spend more on obtaining better prosecutions against knife attackers, spend more on better rehabilitation schemes in prisons to get people to recognise that they shouldn't carry weapons... the list of positive action that will reduce knife crime is actually quite extensive and when it has been adopted in parts of the UK like Birmingham it has shown a clear and dramatic reduction in knife crime.

Can you back this up? I've not seen the statistics on gun crime in the UK over the years.

And more importantly, other than target shooting (which is hardly a popular pasttime), what legitimate use is there for a handgun other than to insert small pieces of metal into people really really quickly?

Self-defence is really the only thing I can think of (I personally would actually quite like to take up target shooting, but that's neither here nor there). And the self-defence debate is an age-old one...

But even in self defense, you would still be inserting small pieces of metal into people really really quickly.

First off - generally speaking in the UK people who use hand guns to commit any crime do not tend to own those guns legally. Criminals buy guns on the black market and generally don't then go and apply to licenses. A license puts you on the police register as a gun owner, something criminals would naturally have wanted to avoid.

Here's a good article from the BBC on Gun Crime - see the link to statistics on the upper right hand side of the page (which shows a steady rise in firearms offences from 1999 onwards.

This Home office pdf is on gun related crime. The summary (on page 25) contains the following data:

1. Firearms (other than air weapons) were reported to have been used in 10,248 recorded crimes in 2002/03. This was a two per cent increase over the previous year, following a much larger increase of 34 per cent in the previous year.

2. Weapons were fired in 28 per cent of firearm crimes (excluding those involving air weapons). In most (68%) non-air-weapon offences, the weapon was used as a threat and was neither fired nor used as a blunt instrument (It is possible that this lower rate of weapons being fired is due in part to the difficulty of obtaining ammunition - it is currently easier to purchase a handgun rather than the ammo - Ofk). Handguns were fired in 11 per cent of the offences where they were involved.

3. Handguns were used in 5,549 recorded crimes, a decrease of six per cent on the previous year. The previous year, there had been an increase of 43 per cent. (This is most likely due to the impact of recent Home Office initiatives to combat the flood of illegal firearms entering the UK and operations like Trident begining to take effect - Ofk)

4. There were 81 homicides involving firearms in 2002/03, down 16 per cent from 97 the previous year. Eight per cent of all homicides in 2002/03 involved firearms.

About two per cent of firearm crime resulted in a serious injury. There were 572 serious injuries resulting from crimes that involved firearms (including air weapons) in 2002/03, up three per cent from 2001/02.

3,903 crimes that involved firearms resulted in minor injury, up by 24 per cent from 2001/02. Fifty seven per cent of these slight injuries were due to air weapons.

5. The number of firearm robberies decreased by an eighth (13%) between 2001/02 and 2002/03, after having risen by a third the previous year. The proportion of robberies involving firearms (including air weapons) has remained between four and five per cent for the last six years.



The legal use of firearms in the UK does not in any way include shooting people.

Firearms are there for either target practice, hunting and pest control. Guns are not allowed for the specific purpose of self defence. If a gun is used for self defence then it is treated as any other weapon or tool used for self defence - and the rules relating to self defence MUST have been followed.

Going off topic...

Personally I don't see the problem with target shooting - which might not be as popular as football - but is still a sport that some people enjoy. I don't see why when the UK was facing a steady rise in gun crime a small section of the UK population was then branded as criminal, just because of their sport.

I enjoyed it and would dearly like to continue to enjoy it - though now I have to go to French gun clubs to use a handgun legally. I've often been challenged by people who find this strange and question why I would enjoy such a destructive and potentially harmfull pasttime - in much the same way I've been criticised for my enjoyment of fencing (both European and Japanese - Kendo, Iaido and parts of Aikido), Archery (again European - using a composite bow, and Japanese - Kudo), Martial Arts (from European boxing to Muyai Thai, Aikido, Kempo Karate, Kopojutsu and Aitemi), Paintballing and even playing certain first person shooter computer games. I guess I'm just a violent little thug at heart, though I've not been involved in any gang related violence... something is seriously wrong here and I'm feeling a bit left out.

Back on Topic... Knives.

Does anyone honestly think that banning long point-tipped kitchen knives will have any affect on knife attacks? Criminals are ingenious lil buggers, they'll simply buy the same knives illegally, or buy slightly smaller but still deadly kitchen knives that aren't banned, or use other long sharp bladed tools.

I'm probably the greatest advocate of the banning of pointed kitchen knives on this forum, yet, to that question (assuming 'knife attack' can be taken to mean planned violence as opposed to spontaneous violence), I say 'no'.

As I have said all along, however, banning pointed kitchen knives would significantly reduce the amount of domestics or unarmed burglaries that turn nasty and wind up with someone being stabbed. If knives are the closest potential weapon to hand, and probably the easiest to use lethally, a ban would greatly reduce the number of these incidents.

[quote=Daedalus,Jun 1 2005, 08:17 PM][quote=Museum Girl,May 31 2005, 09:25 PM]Pointy knives are not just useful in the kitchen but are used by artists to cut canvas and as part of the making of ceramic art work. Don't tell me they can use different tool for the same purpose because they can't. If people really wanted a dangerous weapon all they would have to do would be to walk into a school art/DT/electronics/science lab. Do you suggest we ban those subjects?

[/quote]

It's important to draw a distinction when talking about pointed knives. The typical pointed kitchen knife is in excess of 6" long, which can do someone some serious damage. I'll admit that the points of knives can be useful, but that doesn't require every kitchen knife to be equipped with one. In my (revised) view, pointed kitchen knives should be restricted in their length. It's simply not necessary to have 6" of blade behind the point on your knife 2 or 3" is plenty for almost any kitchen based purpose.
[/quote]

Actually no, the blade is too short to provide the appropriate leverage at 2 or 3 inches for many tasks, such as popping a joint of meat or slicing a melon. It would also be too flimsy. Also many of the pointy knife ceramics tools have to be long for the same reason.

[quote=Museum Girl,May 31 2005, 09:25 PM]It's always been illegal to carry knives without a very good reason. That's the most efficient way to keep knife crime down.

[/quote]

Right, because it's so obvious when someone is carrying a knife on their person.

[/quote]

Well that's true, however having been caught; either because you flashed it around, a friend reported you or you were randomly stopped and searched (this happens frequently in cities) you will face a hefty penalty. I mean we're talking legal here. If people are going to carry knives for illegal purposes they're going to do it anyway and they're going to obtain a weapon anyway, despite it's legality.

Many people have stated that people are going to get a weapon despite its legality. The purpose of banning something is to make it harder to access. So while people may go to any method, the fact that something is harder to get is going to hinder its use in crime somewhat... and I'm pretty sure that's been said before, too.

Not trying to sound like an American barbarian....but I grew up with guns and knives..I got my first gun when I was 7. Knives.. we knew the rules, and they're both fun. yeah, the US has alot of crime. But, you have to give a little to get a little. My uncle was killed by a sawed off shot gun...and I was very close to him. So, I've been a victim of weapons. But, I don't think should be banned...just closely monitored.

One might hope that closely monitored means a gun would not be in the hands of a seven-year-old...

Could you supply us with stats on what you've very succunctly termed sponteanious violence - specifically domestic violence and / or instances burglary where long pointed kitchen knives were specifically used. Please note that I'm actually interested in this and would like to see the results, having reviewed statistics on knife crime in the UK I haven't seen a significant breakdown on this showing non-premeditated domestic / burglary as a major factor in kife related injuries or deaths. Certainly I agree that it does occur but the statistics so far given present a picture of knife violence being less kitchen orientated and more out in the streets, pubs and clubs. Based on Home Office figures I can't see the numbers you're claiming (that doesn't mean you are wrong - just that I haven't seen those figures).

Personally I fully understand your concern and feel that something positive really does need to be done to stop these attacks - but to ban every pointed knife in the UK just because of (what I can so far only assume to be) a few attacks that use these pointed knives - is (in my opinion) like dropping a Baby Grand Piano out of a Fourteen storey window in order to crack a wallnut. It's overkill for a minor number of offences that doesn't actually get to the heart of the problem.

It does not remove the intent to attack to cause harm and there are enough and more easily accessable household items that are just as dangerous and will be utilised in crimes that range from domestic violence and burglaries to gang related stabbings and more worryingly street roberies and random attacks.

Rather than ban potential weapons (and in doing so inconvinience every commercial cook and DIY chef - whilst failling to tackle the cause of crime) I think we need to look at better policing, better education, better sentencing and better rehabilitation of criminals.


Handguns were banned, and yet there has been a proliferation in the UK of illegal handguns. If long pointed kitchen knives are banned people who wish to use them to commit crime will either buy them illegally - OR - will use something else that is just as dangerous.

As I said above - banning a specific weapon does NOT remove the intent to use violence, and if someone wants to use a weapon then they'll use one - and if that one is banned they'll simply use another.

Personally I don't think that pointed knives should be classified as an illegal weapon - they have a domestic non-violent role which is integral to the catering industry, butchers, grocers, cooks, chefs, and in private kitchens throughout the UK. I don't think banning them will end the violence - it will just alter then weapons used.


Quoted for total agreement.

Actually, the trend seems to be that when an item is banned, the statistics of people having that item goes up tremendously. It's something akin to what happens with weed here. The more you're not suppossed to have it, the more people will want it.

Yeah, I was trying to point that out too... It's just a lot of people have made the same arguments and people keep restating what's already been said

Oh, and yes, I'm sure when something is banned, people will still have it. I just meant to say that by banning it, hopefully said item will be harder to get.

We were taught that they were not toys, and we knew the power of guns...they weren't high powered. We were introduced to guns at an early age for a reason, to know what they are capable of. If you have guns in the house and keep them from your kids and let them think its taboo, they will, at one point or another possibly get a hold of it, and end up blowing a face off. Unlike a kid who knows what a gun is capable of, and understands it's not a toy. That is what meant, and that is how we were taught. And, it was a BB gun that we got at that young age. We were allowed to shoot high powered rifles to feel the kick and understand the power, and ofcourse to hunt, while supervised.. I know that's kinda off topic but...yeah.

You can educate a child that guns are dangerous without ever having them near one. That seems to be tempting fate to me.

It doesn't seem as if there are any statistics on this matter. I've had a good look, and turned up nothing.



Er, no. It's just that there's no record of people carrying items that are legal, and even if there is, there is little reason to stop someone and record their possesions if they are legal - unless they happen to be doing something else which is illegal. As soon as something is banned, most people will stop carrying it. Those that don't become statistics because they're carrying illegal items. It's not that banning something makes people carry it, but instead that banning something causes instances of it's possession to be recorded.

If all drugs were legalised tomorrow, recorded drug crime would drop to zero because drug use wouldn't be a crime any more. The reverse is just as true.