Being so close to Lodon but at the same time far enough away to not really be affected by them (well no more than the rest of the non London country) I find myself feeling guilty for not doing more to help. I know there is nothing I can do and I know that the worst is over now but I can't help but feel that I should be able to be doing something. I spent last night phoning round friends to make sure all were well (which they were) and then thinking about how we are going to deal with this at work. The school I work at has a very high Muslim populous (highest in Surrey) and we have had incidents of racial hatred happen here in the past. The fact that some of the kids have parents working in London coupled with the whole air of a witch hunt that will hang about for some months could make this a very scarey place to be. We will no doubt have some form of racial tension building up around here and all I can think is than God we're nearly at the end of term. Two weeks and they become a community wide problem not a school problem- I know I sound really callous but I'm not sure I could deal with large scale fights breaking out at school.
P.S If I've double posted any of this I'm sorry

Ryn, you have my sympathy here. It's a very delicate situation to be teaching in such a mixed community at the best of times, but after events like this it can only make things more difficult.

I think that there have been some mistakes made in the way that terrorism has been covered, not specifically through absolute inaccuracy, but through the meaning of the terms used. In general terms, I prefer the description of 'extremists' for the recent terrorist groups. To my eyes, the forms of 'extremist Islamics' are far enough detached from Islam to not qualify as fitting that description anymore. Unfortunately, it is technically accurate, but accurate in the same way that a member of the BNP could be described as having national pride.

I think in our hearts most of Britain is proud of the things that we stand for in the world, but there is a vast chasm between this pride and rabid nationalism. I don't trust extremists of any sort, be they Christian, Islamic, or animal rights protesters. Personally I think associating extremists with the general community from which they grew only creates problems for that community and encourages more people to radicalise their beliefs. The job of the media should be to enforce the seperation of these minority groups from the world that they say they represent, not look among the communities for ties.

Like others, today does not feel like a watershed in British history. A new group has decided to start bombing us, but, as Jonman says, we've been through this. I've said it in other places before; my father used to be in the civil service, fairly high in the surveying department. Purely by virtue of being vaguely senior he was considered a possible target for the IRA. When you've seen your father check the car for bombs before giving you a lift to school in the morning, and later done it yourself, then this gives you a pretty hardy attitude towards terrorism.

I read some of the articles in the New York Times this morning. I wasn't really surprised to see that they were talking of expecting the outrage to come out soon... Any moment now... It'll be here in a minute... This is one aspect of the transatlantic gap that is very clear. Yes, it has been a while since the last attack in London, but we have spent our lives preparing for bombs and that gives you a level of preparation in your attitudes that cannot be easily conveyed to others who have not experienced it.

I remember my training manual from when I was working in an off-license. It had instructions on what to ask and what to do if given a bomb threat. As far as I know, there has never once been a terrorist bombing of an off-licence in British history (well, even terrorists have standards, don't you know), but still we were trained about what to do if given a bomb threat. It's like taking mock-exams, you do them enough times and the when the real thing gets there you just act normally and get on with it.

So how do I feel, as a person who grew up in South London? The same way I did two days ago. I think that the provision of food, water, and shleter for everyone in the world, followed by education and free, fair trade is the true way to combat terrorism. I would like to see the terrorists arrested, but I would rather the root causes of terrorism be tackled to help prevent the sparks of extremism finding tinder.

I'm so glad that everyone at home and here are safe. I guess, it was going to happen, just waiting for the right moment. I think it's sad that the minute we concentrate our security elsewhere (G8 summit), something like this happens. However, despite the fact that we must be sad for the lives lost and scared that it suddenly feels so much closer to home, we must remember that in other places, for example Israel, they quite literally have bombs for breakfast.

I'm sorry I haven't posted sooner! I'm sorry that this has happened - my prayers are you guys.

I've held off replying to this for a while since it's slightly off topic but I can't restrain myself any longer.




Yes, exactly, one in a million are extremist nutjobs who hate us enough to blow things up. The others seem to get along with us just fine or at least put up with us since fighting isn't worth while.

How would kicking them all out of the country help? If they don't hate us now they will when we violently kick them out from somewhere they were living happily and (in 99.999% of cases) without causing trouble. That's just what the terrorists want, as is panicking and screaming angrily at them.

DLCP, all your posts on the subject seem to be playing right into their hands. Staying calm is definitely the right way to go in this situation.

Working in Selfridges we had a whole warning system set up, we did have a manual but we were told what we had to do. Because of it positioning and the type of shop it was Bomb scares were relatively regualr and it's an interesting experience haveing to search through clothing looking for explosives. If I remeber correctly we actually had more bomb scares than we did fire alarms.

DCLP: And frankly.. punishing hundreds of innocent Muslims for the sins of a few is just what they feel free to do to us with these attacks. Which you are violently objecting to, as its an awful practice.

Adding to this....

Pearl Harbor (detention camps) anyone?

/spam

I hadn't replied to this because honestly I don't know how to. Everything I'd have to say has already been said, and it's pretty well granted that my thoughts go out to those affected.

So everyone's posted in as okay? Noone's missing, right?

I dug this up from the depths of my bookmark list. I think it explains why anger isn't needed in this situation, DLCP.

*edit
I can't believe it took me this long to think of logging on here and making sure you guys were all okay. I'm so used to thinking of Matazone of a safe haven where noone gets hurt, minus the feelings bruised in flamewars. I was just thinking of Mata's "God Makes a Sandwich" animation and suddenly it dawned on me how many of you guys were from England....

Congrats, Mata. You've successfully bridged the Atlantic.

Not sure if anyone's still wondering but as to the sniper story Calantyr commented on I haven't heard it confirmed anywhere and when the emergency services were asked about the story the police there said they had recieved no intelligence concerning that report. Also I figure we would have heard more about it by now.

As a sidenote, I'm glad all the Londoner forumites seem to be ok and I hope your families are safe also, my step-sister was travelled down to the outskirts London to stay with her Dad on the Wednesday and was going out sightseeing in Central London on Thursday morning, it took her Mum hours to get a hold of her and we were all panicking, thank God she didn't want to get up really early - if she hadn't stayed in bed an extra hour she would have been in the Kings Cross station. I'm glad I didn't find out where she was until the next day, it was bad enough at work where one of my colleagues still hasn't managed to trace a friend of her's living and working as a chef near Picadilly, she last heard from him at 8.30am on Thursday just before he went into the tube...

There are several near-miss stories I've heard. One of Sues' workmates had friends who were on the next bus after the one that was bombed. We always live on the edge of death from unpredictable angles.

I've not heard anything more about the sniper story either. That probably means that it was just heresay, although it's possible that maybe it was true and we're just not being told about it. You never can tell.

I just heard a really sad story. One of the people killed in the attacks was an Israeli woman living in England. The reason that she was staying in England was because she was too scared to go back to Israel because of all the bombs and fighting going on. Ironic, huh?

Is that the Muslim woman that was on the front of the newspapers?

The Daily Mail (I think it was them) put the life of a young Muslim woman, most probably killed in the bombs, on their frontpage. I guess the idea was to show how indiscriminate the bombings were, but her integration with Western society probably makes her as valid a target, if not even more so, than anyone else.

The extremists believe that anyone who isn't an extremist is a valid target

I was on my way to Camden earlier today, there was a bomb scare and we had to get off the bus while they searched and cleared the area. More annoying than anything but it is good to see that the emergancy services are following up even after the actual events.

Again the attitude of the Brits is shown after the bomb scare and evacuation of Birmingham last night- my sister was in the thick of it and all they were thinking about was how the hell they were going to get home.
Today Birmingham is back to normal.
London is almost back to normal and by monday every single office will be up and running.

Stitch that, terrorists.

I'm not too sure but I don't think so.

Glad to hear everyone's okay. In Italy, and couldn't get to a computer until today. Was worried about you all, glad you're all okay.

I don't understand why we have to live in such a world filled with hatred and fear of each other, intolerant of each others beliefs and ignorant of the terrible situation in which our world sits -- why do we live in a world of such violence?

Peace, everyone.

My current theory is that people aren't very bright.

We've always lived in a world full of violence and fear, some of it justified, some of it not, it's just that one act can be heard about all over the world in an instant now. Before this there was the IRA, before that there were Libiyans (sp? Too late at night to check it), the fear of Communists, the Nazis, Germans, Africans, Luddites, the French, the Spanish, Jews, Protestants, Catholics, the Crusades... Some were real threats, some were just publicity smoke and mirrors to support the existing power structures of the land, and that's still what's happening.

Are we afraid of terrorists? Not really. Does the government want us to be afraid of terrorists? Yes, it allows them to force through social controls. Does the media what us to be afraid of terrorists? Yes, it sells newspapers.

Is there more violence now than ever before? No, I really don't think so, we're just told about it more often. Go back a hundred years and it was probably considered impolite to even mention such things to 50% of the population... That was a valuable market share though, so now women have their own news targetted at them too.

it's not that there's more violence, just that the forms of violence we now have at our disposal are bigger, louder, and more attention grabbing.

Go back 500 years, and violence was mostly limited to a stick with a bit of sharp pointy metal on the end, or variants thereof. There's a limit to how surreptitious you be with a sword. And to how many people you can kill in a single throw of a spear. And from how far away. And, as Mata pointed out, you'd be less likely to hear about it. Modern media ensures that we all hear about a major event within hours of it happening, even if we're on the other side of the world. Then we're bombarded with images, footage and reportage on it.

The only change in people's behaviour I've noticed as a result of this is that now people alert security if they see an unattended package on public transport. We're actually supposed to do that anyway, according to transport policy, but generally we just ignored them.

my thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected by the bombings.
i'm not a huge fan of the news, but this hit home pretty quickly. it made me realise that, while i am on the other side of the country, no one is safe once terrorists decide who's on their hit-list.

on another side, i'm not sure if anyone has picked this up, but someone had made this comment in my local newpaper and i thought it was valid: bombings similar to this happen everyday in Iraq, and yet no one bats an eyelid.
i guess it is different when it happens to you.

but no one deserves this, especially all the innocent bystanders who are the victims.

i pray you and all your loved ones survive this relatively unscathed

Yup. Exactly. A few more than 50 people died as a result of Thursday's attacks. How many people die of starvation every day? Preventable starvation? How many people die of easily preventable diseases? I don't even know if it's tens or hundreds of thousands, or even millions. Makes 50 uncalled-for deaths seem patheticly unimportant in comparison.

As people have been saying, the reactions to the attacks were much calmer than those after 9/11. I was truly amazed at how well it was being handled.

I will pray for everyone involved, and for your nation.

Putting it all into some kind of perspective:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4690257.stm

Simply one attack in a long line of them happenning every day.

The ammount of civilian deaths is staggering. One week in and around Baghdad totally eclipses anything we have come up against.

Warren Ellis

Something I came across a while ago, just after the attack. Bit of a more lighthearted view on it. Strikes me as being very British. Some strong language.

Like the rest; my prayers are with you guys (all be it a little late). Personally I found it a bit sad that a counrty can be so used to violence that it doesnt really shock them. I honstley dont like to believe that there are places where people grow up getting used to checking under cars for bombs.
I really hope extremist group will lay off you guys, and other countries for that matter. It really will be a sad day when most of the world fears (and by fear, i mean have the threat) for their life on a daily basis, what a horrible place it would be.

Why not? I think it's a good thing to realise that other places in the world are pretty screwed up. Makes you count your blessings, and really appreciate how lucky you are. We damn well ought to feel lucky.



Thanks, but it's unlikely to happen. However, if their intent was to cause as much disruption, then it pretty much failed. This unfazed approach is exactly the response that should be given to acts of terrorism. It disarms what the terrorists were trying to achieve.



The sad fact is that today, there are large parts of the world where this is the sad state of affairs. London ain't one of them though.

New incident

Another 4 incidents. There not much info as yet but the police are saying that as yet there not treating it as a major incident.

Still a lot of confusion but DAMN! Oval's close to me. Im between Clapham North & Stockwell. Was in Stockwell for driving lesson earlier too. Stoopid terrorists (if its that again).
Seems to be fires and less panic overall. Gonna be interesting.

Was supposed to go to Warren Street today... just as well I was running late - the whole area is being cordonned off.

So far reports say that these were dummy nail bombs (either mockups made to look like the real mcoys or someone making them stuffed up and they're actually useless by still real bombs).

One report says a bloke dropped a bag into a carrage then ran off, someone else was wearing the rucksak as it popped then began cursing to himself (?). Someone was chased out of Warren Street tube station and specialists wearing NBC suits were seen entering that station just now.

Blood inconvinient, so far only one reported injury - someone addmitted to University College Hospital (which is now in the exclusion zone, and may have been partially evacuted) this person was accompanied by a cop and a sniffer dog (?)

So far that's all I've seen on TV / heard from ppl in the area.

The blokie in the hospital is reported to be the rucksack holder.

Could be the run-up to something bigger, could be a bit of duff equiptment, could be a group of people taking the piss out of London or thinking "Ooh, so that's how you do it!". But right now? Worst. Terror Attack. Ever.

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who has had that thought cross my mind! I can't help thinking 'good grief, that was absolutely rubbish! If you're going to bomb us then at least try and damage a few other people while you're at it!'

I'm reminded of the crack suicide squad in The Life Of Brian, who run up, pull their swords, then stab themselves to death...

Yup. Looks like they ballsed up completely. Probably some enthusiastic amateurs trying to cash in on the momentum, but being utterly clueless. Or we just got incredibly lucky.

Apparently in the four explosions only the DETONATORS went off, not the charges. This had authorities wondering if it was a chemical or biological attack, but doesn't look like it so far.

Also I have heard it suggested that the person in the hospital was actually holding the place up. Looks like the news is all over the place without a coherant picture.

I'm watching Tony Blair as I type... he's looking rather gray. Oh, he just finished with some dignified remark and refused any more questiona.

Okay, the UK's reaction to the first events I found very respectable. It was sort of like, "Oh, well, stuff happens, [guffaw] we will not change our lives for these terrorists. Life goes on and I suspect a good cup of tea is all we need." I respected that because I was not at all impressed by America's reaction to our terrorist attacks ("We have to nuke 'em all and tear the rest limb from limb to avenge our casualties!").

But... I dunno. Don't you think there should be some kind of change? Increase of security? General uproar? Blair was saying there was no way to minimize these attacks... YES THERE IS! You need to make a stand, stop being so passive! You can't continue daily life if every two weeks there'll be another attack. And next time, they won't be so disorganized. They're gonna kill someone, and they're gonna come back with full force because they're angry they failed so miserably this time.

I understand you all don't want to live in a constant state of fear... or worse, you don't want color-coded terrorist warnings, but you've got to do something.

Do what? Security is already increased about as far as it can go without infringing on personal freedoms so much that it will cause a riot.

And what else do you expect us to do? Run around tearing our hair out? Screaming bloody murder until a nurse gives us sedatives? There is nothing else to be done that would make any sense. If we were to lash out now it would simply cause an escalation of violence with no tangiable benefit whatsoever.

EDIT: A thought crossed me. What would be peoples reactions to the following. After a suicide bomber had carried out an attack, the authorities then gathered his remains and buried him covered in pig flesh?

To my knowledge it is considered an unclean animal in the Islamic faith, and doing so would stop the person from going to paradise and the 40 virgins.

The reasoning is this. Nothing can pursuade someone from not doing an attack if they are so fervent in their beliefs they do not care if they die, indeed they WANT to die. They legitimise this through their faith. So turn their faith back apon them. Would they be so willing to die if it meant they will suffer for eternity in death too?

No it isn't a pleasant thing to do, but I wonder if it would work.

ARC, I disagree with you entirely.

I don't see how going ape and running around like headless chickens (doing both at the same time is only possible a true state of panic) would help prevent further terrorism.

Maybe this is a symptom of America's lack of experience with terrorism. When I say that we are really accustomed to this I mean we really are accustomed to this. We know with absolute certainty that the best that we can do is attempt to detect terrorists before they strike but bombs are easy to make and no matter how many times you politely ask someone if they are a terrorist at a border point they will still lie to you.

The preservation of freedom is precisely what it means, a preservation. It is not a 'change to freedom'. If you are free and you change then you are changing to something less free.


Of course they are going to try again. They always do. That's the point of terrorism, it will always exist when you have different levels of power in the world and the powerful is acting in ways that appear to be exploiting the weak (the truth of this doesn't matter, it's all about perception). Whenever you have underpowered groups who resent larger, more powerful groups you will always have terrorism. No amount of sabre-rattling or gun-toting will change this.

You can't wave a magic wand and make terrorism go away, and you certainly can't wage war with it, because that legitimises it by creating fear in the population but is ultimately about as productive as karate at getting rid of mist. Terrorists are bullies with bombs. If you stand up to them by refusing to change and get on with your life as before then eventually they are forced to grow up and recognise that their methods have no place in the world. If you start chasing them around, fighting with them, then you'll only get their mates involved.


It took around 25 years before the IRA eventually realised that bombing wasn't working and their public face, Sinn Fein, got properly involved with politics and the peace process. We didn't change after 25 years and over three thousand lost their lives. America has decided to try things a different way, and I the body count in Iraq is already over twentyfive thousand, some say it may be more like one hundred thousand. I know which way I think looks like being the best approach. If you are suggesting we stop being 'so passive' and getting on with our lives, I'd like to know the option that you're presenting, because the US model has been an abysmal failure, especially for the people of Iraq who are suffering bombings every few days of increasing strength. They are dying right now from terrorism, and that is terrorism that would not be happening if there wasn't this stupid 'war on terror'.

You fight the bullies and his mates stand up, you ignore him and he realises that he's not getting anywhere and eventually has to try something else. It takes time, and lives will be lost, but words cannot express how absolutly I disagree with your call for 'general uproar'.

EDIT: Interesting suggestion about burying extremist 'Islamic' bombers in pig meat! I wonder if that would work?

By general uproar, I didn't mean to run around like a chicken withits head chopped off. I meant to try and get something changed through a general agreement that things need to be different. Uproar may not've been the best word to describe this.

And maybe it is oversaturation of "TERRORISTS BAD, MUST KILL, TERRORISTS BAD, CAN'T LET THEM STRIKE AGAIN, TERRORISTS BAD, TERRORISTS BAD..." that I've been force fed since 2002 that makes me wonder why y'all aren't being aggressive... at all.

I'm not one to change my mind, or pretend to change my mind, because someone doesn't agree with me. I'll stick to my ideals that sitting around and going on with life is not the best idea. But I never said going to war and succumbing to fear and anger was a good idea either. I'm just sort of frustrated I guess because there's no full proof answer to terrorism (besides, like you said, having equal treatment and quality of life on a global scale) and there's no handbook to really check.

Even though I'm not gonna change my mind, I do understand what you guys, Mata and Cal, are saying. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

With the first attacks I was upset and all, but it didn't bother my use of public transport, but I think that maybe more will happen and I feel maybe a little bit scared. Although this wasn't at all a very bad attack, it gives me the thought that more could come.

Calantyr, I think that you can increase security more. I mean, in Israel, before you enter any public building (museums, bars, train stations, even some busy markets etc...), your bag is just quickly searched. It doesn't take much time at all, it makes people feel safer and no one complains. and infringing on personal freedoms? It seems that the government has ignored this many a time, why stop now?

I agree that searching people when they go into public buildings may be a good idea. Just not on public transport. There are too many people and it is stuffed to breaking point already, it cant deal with the additional burden. And thats the problem, thats where the attacks have been so far. Remember, there are more people in London ALONE than in the ENTIRE of Israel.

Won't work. The people who have been brainwashed into blowing themselves up have been told that this form of martydom expunges any difficulties with their human remains. Islam believes that once a person is dead they should be buried asap where their soul resides until judgement day when they then enter hevean or the other place... keeping the body intact is a good thing (so technically blowing yourself up is not a good idea. Giving impressionable suicde bombers the belief that this isn't a concern that Allah will forgive them this minor issue because of the magnitude of their sacrifice means that if you were (i.) find the bombers remains - not an easy task, and then (ii.) bury these remains in pig flesh - it wouldn't disuade future bombers. However, it could upset and further alienate the Muslim population who don't like the idea of any corpses being desicrated.

Dear terrorists,

If you will insist on bombing my city, please continue to do so on a regular timetable. I can quite easily simply not go into Central London every second Thursday.

Love and kisses,
CB.

In other news, I'm seeing in people's posts a worrying "they" cropping up. Remember that we don't even know who was behind it the first time, let alone whether or not it was the same people this time. Let's wait until all the facts are in rather than ascribe all affronts against us to a mysterious "they", shall we?

they are tossers... they may be from different groups with very different adgendas, but they are still tossers and (in a perfect world) will be neutered with rusty spoons.

Hey, MrTeapot from Israel here. Wow secruity is tight, bomb checks and policing thangs everywhere but there are still bombs and stuff. Anyway, I've been asked a lot about the London bombings and have been almost awed at for my "british attitude". Also they say they are impressed about the handling of this last one.

Gtg, Jewish Discoteque in the Muslim sector of Jeruselem time, and I've got a story to tell.

(In seriousness, I am not happy about bombings. They could have at least injured more. Yeah right I'm going to be shaking in my boots now.)

I don't know that quick peeks in people's bags does anything but provide an illusion of safety. If someone's clever enough to organize those first attacks, they would be clever enough to, say, hide the explosive in a bag's lining, or disguise it. I think this approach just creates a hassle.

Agreed. It's dangerous to play Us vs. Them. It's important to keep in mind that, in "their" minds, we are Them. When we stop seeing ourselves and others as individuals, it's easy to dehumanize and justify violence.

Yes but it creates fear for the terrorists. It will make them think twice. It makes it harder for them and more hassle so they are a less likely to do it. Actually, I'm not too sure how it helps, but it seems to help. I shall look into it.



Where about are you?

Man shot dead by police on Tube

No word yet on whether this is related - a passenger said the deceased was wearing a "bomb belt", but I'm not convinced of the hidden-bomb-spotting skills of John Q. Public.

Edit: eyewitness accounts.

My brother was on the next carriage along from the one that the guy was shot on. He's a bit shaken, but otherwise completely fine. It's a small world isn't it?

Yep. I was on the Northern Line at the time myself, though further north, around the Euston area.