As we all know a great deal of the forumites here are sexually active or very sexual beings. A recent quarrel has now sparked curiosity inside me... how important was/is your virginity? How did you lose it? Did you regret it? Do you regret it now? Do you hate the person who took it?

Personally, I wish I'd have waited. I lost my virginity shortly (one day) before entering the realm of teenage years to a buddy's sister. It wasn't romantic. It wasn't even that good. I don't hate her. I was a willing participant. Al that jazz.

But that's enough about me. What about you?

Virginity was once such an important value to me that I was astoundingly militant about it. That lasted until March 3, 2003, which is now regarded as the best birthday ever.

I'm still a big believer in waiting. I've never liked the whole "get it while it's hot" mentality. I think that puts a lot of undue stress on teenagers and young adults. It warms hy heart meeting people my age who could have had sex but chose not to. The thing is most people I know have lost it between the ages of thirteen and sixteen. It's kind of depressing.

Waited until age 19. It was a few months ago, actually, back in February. It really was one of the best decisions I ever made. I was with a man I loved and trusted and it was a very sweet occasion - Valentine's Day and our four-month anniversary.

As far as regret... I don't see things going terribly wrong with me and the boyfriend, but even if they do someday I don't think I'll regret it. I had a wonderful first time and that's a lot more than I can say for many of my friends. They have stories of animalistic sex-fests, lust substituting for love, desperation, etc. Mine was one of the most romantic days of my life. I doubt I'll look back on it (or him) with any sort of anger or disgust.

I wish everyone could wait until they could have a good first time. Many young people are irresponsible about sex and are ill-prepared for possible consequences. It's also a matter of self-esteem - if losing one's virginity doesn't go well, it can make the person feel dirty, shameful, and unworthy of love/affection. Women are especially victim to this, as they often give up their virginity because they feel they're supposed to, and afterwards feel awful about it.

But me, yeah, mine was great.

For a short time, I regretted losing it to the woman I did. However, I later realized that we do, indeed, love each other. About a month and a half ago, she invited me to her wedding as an honored guest.

So many of my friends lost it to people they wish they never even met. Thinking about it all makes me sad. I feel blessed that I can still hug and kiss and cuddle and laugh and hang out with the person I lost it to.

I will admit to envying my brother regarding his sexual history. Two-and-a-half years ago, he lost his virginity to his girlfriend (also a virgin). They've been together for three years now. Each is the only one the other has had.

Oh, Lord. The first time is amazingly impactful on the person's sexuality and the course of that person's sex life. I've met way too many people whose lives have been effected adversely by their first sexual experience. There usually are other issues going on, though. No one thing can do _that_ much damage to one's psyche.

All of that ties into this long and involved theory I have on the definition of the term "slut" (quickly: a person [male or female] who has sex with others to fulfill a psychological need, be it dependance, acceptance, control, "love," etc.). People think that sex can fulfill some need, so they bone others. I don't know about you guys, but sex, to me at least, is as addictive as drugs and tattoos, especially when there is a psychological need for it. The feelings of filth and shame seem to feul this even more. Having used drugs, I would compare it to that. You do drugs/have sex to get away from something, but when you get sober/stop having sex, you have not only the addiction, but also the pain of whatever you're trying to escape.

If you think I'm full of sh*t on this one, PM me and I'll give you a brief history of my experiences.

I'm a virgin. I do not have any plans to lose my virginity in a hurry. I would much rather wait until I'm in a relationship than lose it just for the sake of losing it. The concepts of 'casual sex' and one night stands seem rather strange to me.


Sounds pretty perfect to me.

Edit: And if a debate about virginity is what you're after, poking Tigersong into the thread would be a good idea.

Green, I'm not particularly looking for a fight or anything. It's just a topic that's been on my mind lately. A lot.

Oh no, not at all. I just seem to remember Tigersong has some interesting views on the subject. That be all.

My loss was extremely spur-of-the-moment. I'm kind of ashamed about the circumstances surrounding the situation, but I'm not ashamed about what I did. I'd talked to the person on the phone because he was my friend's friend, and I'd joked with him a lot, asking if he'd have sex with me. Well, I was chilling at my friend's house, and everyone but me and the guy went out to buy some pot. Again, I'm not proud of the surrounding circumstances. He and I were alone, a little tipsy, and well... yeah. It was painful, though thoroughly enjoyable. And unlike some guys who would just be like, Meh, just some random chick, he's always really kind to me when we see each other or talk on the phone.

I think that virginity should be a personalized decision. People I know who're waiting have my support and respect, but that's not how I wanted it. I wanted it quick, I wanted to get it over with. I told myself I'd deal with my first time and become sexually active so when I meet someone I really love, it can be romantic, and, well, I can be experienced. My first time was awkward and it hurt (I ruined my friend's bed; the guy had to flip the mattress ) and I wouldn't have wanted that with someone I appreciated and loved.

I was 15, and I think that 15-whenever is a good time to lose your virginity, male or female. Regardless of how you feel (whether you want to get it over with, or you want to wait) I think the person should think hard about what they're about to do. Always use protection, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS, and know that sex is serious business-- it WILL change your life.

Good boy.

As well it shouldn't. I've engaged in such activity and I still don't get it. You don't cuddle and you feel like Hell afterward. It sucks.

Hence the mild envy.

I could have lost it earlier to my girlfriend at the time. Thank God I didn't. I probably would be regretting it horribly.

Oh, and also, society has sent mixed messages to young people. The media glorifies sex, while parents and authority figures make having sex something to be ashamed about. This confuses kids, and our natural inclination to blow off our authority figures leaves the media the only place to turn to guidance.

To a degree, I think we need to open about sex to everyone, about the dangers and its seriousness, not promotiong it, but not demonizing it either. Unfortunately, sex sells, and that's the message going out to kids. So in today's world, losing one's virginity and becoming sexually active is not only considered cool, but it's also considered rebellious. I know middle school kids who screw like rabbits. When I was in middle school, I was NOT thinking about sex. I don't even think most middle school boys are properly equipped? All that means is that sex media is reaching out to younger and younger audiences... bad times.

Abstinence and protection is what kids should be learning, not to go out and give it to anyone willing. There's so much pressure, how can you blame these impressionable kids?

I've had sex...but I haven't lost my virginity yet.

I always thought of it being a physical and mental side in one, that was until I had sex and realised that I had not changed one bit. True virginity is losing part of yourself to someone you truely love, which I have yet to come across.

I think the whole thing is overrated.
Losing your virginity, and sex for that matter, do not determine ones life, or how youll be in years to come ..unless you get pregnant, but im talking phychologically.

Sex is just another thing.

I was 14 (shock) with my boyfriend (shock) who i went out with for a year (shock)

In my house, on my bed. and even when we split up, i never regretted a damn thing because theres no point in regret, theres no point in getting angry.

I dont like the whole one night standness, not because its particularly about sex, but because of the dangerous situations people put themselves in to do it.

Ive probably come across as overly cynical but meh.

The only thing I can really say on the matter is don't have sex with a partner for the first time when drunk.

I think it is important to wait untill your married to have sex. AS tempted as you may be it is always a bad idea. There is no positive outcome of having sex before you are married. It's okay that you regret it, probably because you are a normal person with morals and a consiouns. Don't feel bad about doign it because life is too short to for depression.

I lost my virginity a few months ago. I'm not proud of the circumstances, but I don't regret it. My boyfriend and were on the couch in my basement, and my parents we home. It hurt and wasn't all that great, but I didn't regret it for a moment. I knew the first time wouldn't be great; it rarely is. "Just doing it" allowed for it to be good at later times. I do believe it made me closer to the person who was (and is) my boyfriend. I do not think it was wrong, nor do I think I will ever regret it if and when my current relationship ends.

I'm a virgin, I think its really strange how society portrays sex. Like ARC said, our parents (and religion?) tell us that sex is bad or sinfull and unclean and you'll be thought of like trash if you have sex. And media says "Sex is erotic and everyone should have it cuz its great so go out and do it!" And it really does confuse kids, because I was there.

Basically I was definatley listening to my parents more and it got so ingraved in my head that sex is so bad and dirty. So what happened to me then is whenever I saw something any bit sexual it was dirty and gross and wrong, but no one ever bothered to tell me sex is beautiful sometimes too.

So it took probally a year of arguing views and such with my boyfriend for him to convince me that sex can be beautiful and is accepted by people and just that alone has changed my views on PEOPLE so much its pretty damn amazing. Also, its good for people to know that their hormonal urges are normal and not something bad and something you should try to turn off.

Because then all its becoming is a 1984....

I guess most all aspects of sex can change a person dramatically, depending who they are

I'd be interested to hear your reasons for thinking this.

Mainly because I disagree vehemently. Having sex before you're married can have any number of positive outcomes. Granted, it can have negative outcomes too, but the same applies to almost everything we do.

In fact, I'd even go as far to say that it's my belief that people who remain virgins until their wedding day are being naive. The reality is that some people just don't 'click' sexually. Some people do. Imagine your despair if you'd waited all that time, got married to the love of your life, only to find out that they did nothing for you in bed, and you've just signed up to a lifetime of rubbish and unfilfilling sex. Terrible. I almost feel like it's every couple's duty to fool around extensively before even considering marriage. Just to check for sexual compatability. Anything that lowers the divorce rate is fine by me.

But the main positive outcome of pre-marital sex is....wait for it... it's fun. Sex is fun. It's not dirty, and it's not wrong. It's the cheapest way to spend some time with someone you like, and you both have a great time. 100% organic, it's perfectly natural and is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

Of course, there are caveats. There's a gulf of difference between having protected consensual and considered sex that both partners are emotionally mature enough to deal with, and folk screwing each other up by screwing each other. Unfortunately, the former requires a degree of openness and honesty (both with yourself and your partner) that's less common that it ought to be. Even more so the younger you are. And it's this that leads to emotional turmoil, STDs and unplanned pregnancies. See, there's a difference between 'bad sex', where both partners intentions are not clear, where one or both partners hasn't considered the ramifications of sex (drunken fumbles fall square in the middle of this category), and 'good sex', where both partners are open and honest with each other.

I've got no problem with people waiting as long as it takes before they feel like their emotionally ready for sex (or for other personal or religious reasons) - that is what should happen in all cases (of course, it doesn't). But once they reach that point, I see no reason they shouldn't dive right in and have some fun. As long as they're safe and 'eyes-wide-open' about what they're doing.

I regret sleeping with my now ex boyfriend. he didn't love me. what a waste.

I remember at the time (16) my virginity was a huge deal. It was around that time that everyone was losing it and there were always hushed conversations about who reportedly had or hadn't.

Ten years on - I don't remember ANTHING about losing my virginity. Yes, I knew who I was with, where I was and I was sober and consenting. I know that it wasn't a terribly huge experience in my life.

I assume we're talking about the feelings involved and not the actual sex itself? I can't remember if it was good/bad or indifferent. People may think it's sad but I have no feelings about losing my virginity and that reallly doesn't bother me.

It's one of those things that is really only a big deal at the time. That's not to say that it's not going to have a profound effect on someone.

What was my point again?

Edit: It's just occurred to me that I do have a very cavalier approach to sex in general so I suppose that colours my opinion somewhat.

Interesting thought, J-man, though I can't relate to that. With the people I've had sex with that I love (the others don't count), I've never had a problem clicking. And even if that was the case, if I love someone enough, I can ignore the fact that he/she is a bad lay. I met a woman who told me that her husband was a bad lay, but she didn't marry him for sex.

Anyhow, my brother and I were discussing this today. He pointed out that the whole regret thing is all a matter of perspective. He could, theoretically, regret the fact that he lost it to his present girlfriend and not have explored other options. Fot a long time, I regretted losing it to the person I did, mainly for bullsh*t reasons which I will not discuss. It eventually came down to two things: 1) It's in the past so I shouldn't worry about it and 2) at least she's still in my life, even if it's as a friend and not as a lover. The circumstances didn't change, just my outlook.

Both extreme views of sexuality piss me off. I once read a book called Sex For Christians. In it, the author pointed out that sex is one of the best things God has bestowed on mankind (damn straight). He also said that supressing one's sexual desires and not facing them and analyzing them can lead to severe emotional issues regarding sex. He also agrees, however, that sex is beautiful and sacred because of the connection with the other person (assuming you have one; I've been in both situations). Using my little sister as an example, I want her to understand that kind of connection before she goes off having sex. I don't think one could understand that at thirteen or fourteen. I know I sure as Hell wouldn't have.

Being pressured into it could skew one's view on sexuality, especially if it's portrayed as something you do to either keep a relationship together or please your partner. It makes my skin crawl.

I remember all that sort of fuss too.
Frankly the vast majority went right over my head I just plain wasn't interested. I had a boyfriend at the time and I vaguely remember asking once if it was what he wanted. He wasn't ready and I left it at that it didn't bother me in the slightest.
Infact I aimed to try and leave it for as long as possible although waiting till I was married didn't seem right, what if my partner wasn't compatible and so on.

As it stands I lost it at 19 to someone whom I care for very much although we are no longer together. I can't say it was the most awe inspiring event of my life but it did open my eyes to the possibilities and how things can be built upon, not just physically but emotionally. With the right partner it goes much further than pure physical needs.

One night stands and brief flings can have their spark and excitement but they can have their share of heartache to. With all the will in the world I cant always shake feelings of guilt after something like that I do prefer to be in a steady relationship, waiting several months to ensure I trust the person can never be abad thing I think.

All in all though I would say make sure it is your choice and you feel comfortable with the descision, the more prepared you feel the less things you have to dwell on later worrying about whether you should have. It is a once only thing physically you cant go back on it so just make sure it feels right. Although in this regard I do agree with Mr Teapot there is physical virginity and emotional, one you can control the other maybe you cant just go with it, experience, learn and enjoy.

(I apologise if I lost the plot halfway Im currently falling asleep at the keys, I may amend this later when I reread it with a fully conscious mind)

[quote=Righteous,Jul 14 2005, 06:41 PM]
[quote]Using my little sister as an example, I want her to understand that kind of connection before she goes off having sex. I don't think one could understand that at thirteen or fourteen. I know I sure as Hell wouldn't have.

[/quote]

I'm sure theres some 13/14 year olds out there who understand that, just not many. If I were to look at my friends (14/15 agegroup mostly....) I'd say most of them are still not even thinking about it, maybe one has and they understand connecting with the person both physically and emotionally and then the rest just want to screw. At any rate, I think it all depends on the maturity of the person and how much they've acctually thought and/or talked about the subject. I know I'm 15 and I understand things like that.

Lot of fuss about not a lot.

I agree with Jonman, sex before marrage is definatly a good thing, and sex is a lot of fun

Obviously this is in the context of a relationship you feel safe in, not sleeping around or anything stupid.

I hear what you're saying. I think that sex with someone you love has the potential to be especially amazing, but even so, there's still degrees of how well it works. And I think that in the context of a lifelong relationship, sex becomes less important as the timeline involved gets longer. That said, if sex with the missus was rubbish, I think I'd (and I suspect she would too) have issues with that.

I'm still a virgin. In part because of my parents and how very much they would have disapproved, but mostly for me. And well, that whole being religious thing. Its nice when your actions match your talk.

I have a negative-ish view of premartial sex (gasp), but thats mostly because of what I see in practice, not just the Bible saying now. For the few happy stories here, I've heard so many more negative ones. Out of my girlfriends (non-christian, some pagan, no problem with sex, ect), I knew one that was glad she had sex when she did. One. Woman's magazines/whatever women written reading material, gossip and watching people chase their tails around have convinced me that a scarily large majority of people are not off leaving some romantic adventure, but something that can be very hurtful for a little bit of pleasure. I guess it seems like sex being available inspires far too many people to take it casually enough to damage them. That sums up what I'm trying to say.

And yes, I realize some people are definite exceptions. I realize marriage doesn't magically protect people from pain, especially since some people are pretty foolish about who, when and how they marry. However, if people exercise a little common sense, it seems safer to sleep with someone you know and love enough to make that sort of commitment to. Even if things get messy, you know they've promised to be there in the right sort of marriage.

And Jonman, premarital sex doesn't guarantee happier sex lives or marriages or we would have less divorce. ;P I see your point about at least knowing you're attracted and compatable, but there's got to be other ways to get a hint besides full on sex.

Absolutely. What it does do is prevent problems with incompatible sexualities only being discovered once you're hitched. There's an argument that having several partners might lower the divorce rate by 'sowing your oats' before you get married, therefore lowering the desire for adultery, as you've already slept with other folk. Conversely, there's also an argument that it might raise the divorce rate by encouraging promiscuity. I honestly don't know which is the stronger case. My suspicion is that most folk who don't have pre-marital sex do so for religious reasons. I'd like to think that a religious person is less likely to succumb to adultery (given the focus on morality that religion gives), but given the huge divorce rates in heavily religious countries (I'm thinking of the US mainly here), I think that I'm being too optimistic.

As to other ways to figure out your sexual compatability, I'm not sure that there are ways. Much of sexual compatability is purely mechanical, some is a 'skill' thing, and some is to do with the way you 'do it' (e.g. slow and steady vs hard and fast) versus how your partner likes it.



*pulls self back on topic* You mention that most of your acquaintances have negative stories. I'm assuming your talking about their negative experiences of their first times. I think we're in agreement that there's too much social pressure to have sex ASAP. There's too much of a social stigma to being a virgin. That's pretty screwed up, and I think it's that that led your friends to diving in before they were prepared.


so good it's worth quoting twice. I am 112% in agreement with you on this one.

Here's a thought: Suppose you save it for someone you really, really, really love, enough so that person pecomes your one and only. One thing this could precent is one comparing his/her present partner with others. Okay, suppose one's former partner got him/her into something kinda kinky. Suppose that person's present partner doesn't want to get into that. This could put a strain on that couple's sex life. My brother and his girlfriend have no one to compare anything with and, apparently, are happy as pigs in poo. Now, I'm not one to compare, but I wonder what I'd be into and what my outlook would be had I waited.

EDIT: I forgot to point this out several posts ago. Given my beliefs on the first time, I don't think I could have sex with a virgin. I just think that's too much of a burden on my conscience.

I lost my virginity fairly recently. Maybe in March, I think. I don't regret it. It wasn't bad-- it wasn't as good as the sex after it though. I'm in love with the person I lost my virginity too, and even if we do break up, I suspect I will have fond memories of him and losing my virginity to him.

I'm not at all against premarital sex, providing all cautions are taken. This would mean being on birth control. I think as long as you are emotionally ready for the possible consequences of sex, it's fine...

How important was/is your virginity?
It was important enough for me to wait to lose it to someone I felt that I had a connection to. I wasn't interested in giving it away like most of my "peers". But I didn't think waiting for marriage was the brightest of ideas. Like Jonman said, what if you both have completely different ideas of sex and completely different sexual stimulii? I'd hate to be bonded "for life" to someone who only enjoyed BDSM (no offence meant, I just like my sex a little closer to vanilla).

How did you lose it?
I lost it to Randy the night I came to Seattle. It hurt like hell the first night (big men do NOT make for good first partners... ) and for a good few weeks afterwards, but it was still enjoyable. I like the intimacy more than anything else.

Did you regret it?/Do you regret it now?
No, and I doubt I ever will. I lost it with love, not just lust (though I'd be lying if I said there wasn't an enjoyable bit of that in the mix ).

Do you hate the person who took it?
I'm marrying the person who took it. Though the current state of marriage and divorce rate in America may argue for people who hate each other marrying, I assure you that Randy and I are not one of those cases.




When I was about 13 years old, I had figured out that sex was supposed to be more about a connection and less about lust. That's why I waited so long.

And honestly, I know people who are over 18, into their 20-somethings, who don't understand that sex is more than physical. Some people just never mature.

Hm. I'm a virgin, meself. Not, though, because I disaprove of premarital sex. And me a pastor's kin, too. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see why it matters so much for people to enter marriage as virgins. A person usually enters into relationships with much more troubling elements to their past. To me, whether or not somebody's had sex isn't nearly as important as what else has gone on it, or what they've done with, their life.

I consider myself to be a virgin. It's painful to think otherwise since the way in which I was a part of the intimate act was not pleasurable in neither a physical nor psychological way.
I'm still waiting for the right person to lose it to but am in no rush to do it.

Meh... I had a less than plesant sexual experience when I was young, which kinda put me off for a while. I lost my virginity aged 16 to my boyfriend of a year and a half at the time, two and a half years now. It took him that long to persuade me.

I think giving your virginity to someone is something that should be special and nice, but not necissarily something which is the end of the world. I don't really know this for certain, but I'm sure if I did end up with a new partner, sex with them for the first time would be, and should be, just as special as losing my virginity for the first time.

I would also hope it should be a damn sight less painful.

Hmm. From my understanding (mainly from my human sexuality class, and my own and my friends' experiences), it doesn't hurt much, if at all, for most girls. And there is very rarely any blood.

My first time didn't hurt at all. It was a little awkward, but as far as pain goes...none that I remember. It's kind of one of my pet peeves how girls sit around talking about how much their first time hurt. All that serves to do is scare the crap out of their friends who are still virgins, thinking they're in for a world of pain. And if you tense up thinking there will be pain, of course it's going to hurt. Hmph.

I tend to agree that it's important to figure out whether or not you have sexual chemistry with someone before entering into what is supposed to be a lifelong commitment with them. It really does make a huge difference.

Anyway, I don't regret losing it, even though I'm no longer with the person. I'm not saying I'd do it over again if given the chance, but it was what I wanted at the time. It hasn't led to any complications in other relationships. If someone would be reluctant to be with me simply because I had a past and other relationships before them, I don't think I would particularly want to be with them.

That sounds quite scary when your av is glaring at me

Yeah, but my first time actually *did* hurt. I'm not saying it was total agony, but it was definately not pleasant. And I *did* bleed when I physically lost my cherry, but that was at a different time, and not due to anything sexual. Besides, it's not something I really talk much about to other people, and I was the last out of my friends to lose it, so... meh.

And after far too much thinking about this, I now include the following in my thoughts:

I couldn't have a one-night stand or anything like that. I really don't see the point of sex for sex's sake. I realise biologically the point is to procreate, but I just think for me I want it to be about closeness to and trust of the other person. I would wake up the morning after hating myself for doing it, and miserable becuase I wouldn't see the other person again. I couldn't distance myself from it.

Mine hurt a little bit, to start. You know, the general stretch of the vaginal opening pain, but after that it's not too bad. I bled just slightly, and was sore the day after, but nothing serious.

That said, a friend of mine says that a girl he was with a few years ago screamed in pain during their first time. So maybe it really _does_ hurt for some people.

O_O I think I feel a sudden desire to remain celibate. It always sounds so scary when people talk about it. 'It hurt horribly!' 'No, just some!' and then blood and ergh. *hides*

It does.

I actually remember thinking "Is this what all the fuss is about?". The majority of the time, I'd still rather be kissed and held. Intimacy is nice.

Well, I know my first time hurt tremendously at first. And I bled and bled. When we got up, I thought it might've been sweat or something {the lights were off), but it was a good frying-pan sized splatter of blood. I bled the rest of the day. I think it depends how tight you are to begin with, you know, and how big the guy is. My dude was... blessed in the most special of ways. Very blessed. And before then, I barely even used tampons unless I was going swimming.

A friend of mine once gave me a lecture about having sex with a virgin. She told me that it was best to make sure that there was an ample amount of vaginal fluid (translation: foreplay). She also said that using a lubricated condom would be a good idea. Makes sense to me. She also told me to go slow at first and be sweet and comforting and what-not so my partner wouldn't get tense and complicate things, as Cand pointed out.

Has sex hurt for any guy other than me? My first time was with a girl who had had sex only once and for about four hours afterward, I was in pain. THe same went with girls who had been celibate for an extended period of time. The first time, it freaked me out. I had no idea what was up until I figured it out later that day. Hmm. I guess it also didn't help that I was new to the whole deal. *shrug*

Fornication has become more aceptable as marriage has lost its meaning within society. Marriage was once hugely important and fornication was a sin. Obviously, since then religion has declined within society and certain things have become more acceptable.
I think when and how people lose their virginity is down to personal preference. But what do people think about age? Is sex okay before 16 if the people in question are mature enough and feel they are ready? Or is it just too young?
(This is not a problem that i have by the way, as i am 18)

Its not an defined age, per se, but I would rather people wait until they are emotionally, financially (to some degree) and otherwise able to deal with potential pregnancy, diseases, ect. It doesn't stop people, but I'd love to see them at a place where they could actually clean up their own messes first.

Just out of interest - a girl in my year got preganant by her 22 year old boyfriend aged 15. Her parents kicked her out, and she had to go and live with him. She was by no means one of the most "mature" people in the school. If I was going to use a word to describe her it would probably be "rough". If I was going to be horrible it would be "slag". She slept around, she smoked and drank (to excess, repeatedly - I haven't got a problem with either of these things in moderation), she truanted, etc etc. She had to be forced by the head to come in and finish her GCSEs. She would be the last person in the world I would have wanted to look after a child.

Now, this is 2 years later. She's living happily with her boyfriend still. The baby is well looked after, he works full-time, she works part time and looks after the kid, and she's working on some random qualification part-time in college (GNVQ I think). I couldn't have coped with it, but she clearly can, and it's what was right for her.

On the other hand, one of my close friends, who for all his failings I would consider fairly mature, got his girlfriend pregnant, and she couldn't cope with it. She said several times she'd had abortions, or was going for them, or had miscaariaged, and by the time she was finished messing him about, she'd had the kid. She's had several older boyfriends since then, and relies almost totally on her mother (who is a childcare worker, I think - she does something with kids) to look after the kid. She won't let the father see it. She lives, fortuntely, literally right across the road from the local Waitrose, so she works there part-time, and comes home for baby at lunch and stuff. I would have considered this couple far more capable of coping with a baby than the first, and yet this is the place where lives have been torn apart.

I don't really know what the point is, but I guess no-one can actually really tell, even for themselves, when is the right time when they can cope. I actually agree with the age limit of 16, it seems like as good an age as any, and 16-17 is also the age when the majority of people in Europe lose their virginity.

{Gothic Angel}: We could find exceptions til the cows come home, honestly. Some people will always surprise us and sometimes thats a good thing. Its true that telling if you are ready can take a degree of honesty and self-awareness, which some people will never have and what was likely there in the case of your second friend. People that are truly mature generally don't have it magically disappear.

But if you have no way to support something, to follow up and such, its a decent indicator that you probably aren't ready. Or at least that you should do some cousin of preparation.

I took my (now ex) girlfriend's virginity, and it didn't seem to cause her _unbearable_ amounts of pain, but she didn't really enjoy it. I didn't much either, as I'm rather a whore for mutual pleasure.

Anyway, the point was yeah, some people bleed very much their first time. The ex had to throw out her sheets for all the blood.

And for the record, one should never have their first time on white sheets.

Heh. My first time was on a floor with a light beige carpet. The only telltale signs after it were the rugburns on my back.

I'm not saying that excessive bleeding doesn't happen, but in the vast majority of cases it's just a tiny smear of blood, if even that. More often than not, there's no evidence.

A firend of mine suggested putting down a dark, preferably old and forgotten towel to avoid any blood stains. I can't say it's not a good idea.

Just think of the problems that would cause in societies where you are expected to be a virgin when you marry. I doubt this happens anymore but in the bible it talks about parents keeping the sheets that their daughters marriage was consumated on so that they could prove she had been a virgin when she married incase her husband got bored and wanted out.

Am I taking this off track?

All I wanted to say is wouldn't it suck if you didn't bleed when it was expected of you and you lost your husband and your dignity because of it?

Yeah, this did happen. And it would suck. Some women turned to alternatives, like putting animal's blood on their sheets. A very odd concept on the whole if you ask me.

Checking the sheets is still done in some countries, I believe. And I think its a viable part of the topic, Snoo. People still view women and virginity differently than men. Though at least a part of that is how women view it themselves and react to it.

Yes, checking the sheets is still done in some countries. Those countries also tend to practice female circumcision. This often also involves sewing up a woman's labia when she's around 4 or 5 so she has an opening about the size of a pinky finger. Smaller openings after this operation are associated with more honor, so it can get so bad that it takes a woman an hour just to go to the bathroom.

Of course, it's important for women in such cultures to be virgins on their wedding day, and you can only imagine the pain they go through trying to consummate the marriage. Midwives (who also perform the operations in the first place, if I'm not mistaken) often take pity on new brides and slice them open a little so it won't be so incredibly painful (in fact, it's often nearly impossible) for them to have sex with their new husband (the husband might in fact get angry and take his anger out on her if he is unable to penetrate her, because that will make him "less of a man" ).

I do have a point that is on-topic with this little rant, I promise. Even if you are one of the rare people who experience some pain and actually bleed, it could be much, much worse. A torn hymen and the possibility of a little pain and blood doesn't seem so scary in comparison.

What I 'love' is when they convince the men to give it up and the women still fight for it as a an intrinsic part of their tribal traditions and state that they will do it anyway. heh.