Ok, I'm sure I'm gonna take flak for some of this, but...

Many moons ago, when I were a lad, there seemed to be all kinda little tribes and depending on what you were into, it was a good gauge of who you were.

Now, I'm not really trying to argue that we need labels or small minded people judging us by our appearance or tastes, but there seemed to be more of a community feel to it all.. I mean, we're kind of a community right?

This is what I mean:

Goths: likes poetry, haunted castles, wearing black, back-combed hair, the cure, the sisters...

Crusties: likes dreadlocks, tye-dyed clothes, fire breathing, the levellers, new model army...

Cyberpunks: likes poopers, caffine, hot wiring anything, bleepy music...

Townies: generally try to aggravate anyone not the same as them...

I could carry on for hours, but I'm sure i'm already testing some folks patience...
I guess my point is that when folks come into my record store now, I'm getting an awful lot of abuse and attitude from people I thought I had something in common with!

There's a gang of what the locals call " Gothics " now in the last few months they've stolen from me, vandalized my shop, attacked passers by, even tried to start a fight with me... the list just goes on!

Whats going on? We all used to look out for each other, the alternative lifstyles, no matter what their diffrences, there was a sense of belonging.

Are these the ramblings of a past it old codger? I'd like to think not!

Whoopsie! Meant to post this in issues! Anyone know how to move it?

Just a quick addition... think I didn't make myself clear, I'm not having a go at anyone, I just wanna know if other feel that once things were more than a fashion statement?

Oh I'm so gonna get flamed!

It's not a "label" or "tribe" thing, homeboy. It's a "cool cat" versus "complete twat" thing. Unless absorbed by the collectivist group mentality, you can't make blanket satements about people. A lot of times it's a situation of, "Hey, you're cool and if you need, I'm here because I've learned how cool it is to have others there for you." This isn't always the case. It could be a case of, "You're a little bit different from me, even though you're outside the norm, therefore, you suck."

I consider myself "alternative," however I primarily fall into the category of "Ri/James/Tragick."

And dude, lighten up. We're a lot more accepting and open-minded here than most boards. DOn't worry. Unless you decide to be a little bitch, we won't have issue with you.

As a teenager I disagree with your idea that there are less 'tribes' around now. We have the Goths, the Punks, the Townies/Chavs, the Poptarts, the Skaters, the Hippies etc.

I think your experience with the 'Gothics' was because you thought they wre goths, and tried to talk to them as goths, whereas they were not goths but were probably called that by the townies (who call everyone who likes rock music a 'Goff') and were probably pretty pissed off about being called goths.

When I was a teen, a long, long , long time ago, we had Skinheads, Heavy Rockers, Mods, goths were around but dont know what they were called, punks and New Romantics.

I, of course belonged to the New Romantics, the bestest ever group!

They're a lot more diversified. You have metal heads (and all the factions therein), alternatives, goths, punks, hardcore kids, industrials, rednecks, preps (my guess is equates to townies), emo kids, hippies (my guess is equates to crusties) and probably more that I can't think of.

A lot of it is based not only on music but activities. My brother and I were the only metal heads on the whole team. The rest were rednecks and preps.

I hate the label "freak." Around here, it's put on anyone who wears black and listen to harder music. It pisses me off.

What exactly is a "new romantic"?

A New Romantic was a person into Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet that type of music. We wore frilly shirts and little suede boots and had a long fringe.

New Romantic also was the precurser to Goth.

Rule one of being a Goth never admit your a Goth

*Does not classify herself as a goth, but is often classified as such by others*

I like the way the black and red, fishnets, corsets, collars etc look, so I tend to wear them sometimes. I primarily listen to rock/metal/ "alternative" music, and I'm intelligent and quiet with a somewhat cynical and philosophical view on life. This tends to result in me being classified as "goth".

However, in the summer, I wear brightly coloured sarongs, floaty tops, flip flops, headbands, etc. I have a pair of elf ear-tips which I love. I like to go out into the sunshine *gasp*, and ok, sit in the shade, but the outside is nice sometimes. I guess I'm more hippy than goth at that point.

I was talking to my freind about this today actually. She was saying that she's found this "emo" guy she's getting close to and she wants to have different clothes and different classifications for the different aspects of her personality, but she can't face the people who would call her a wannabe. I kinda realised that's what I do - I have different aspects of my personality. I don't see why I should only live with one of them all the time.

Yup - so I'm a Goth?


Yup - So I'm a Crusty?


Yup - So I'm a Cyberpunk? (see where I'm going here)


Okay - I don't do that. I'm really selective as to who I aggravate.

However - you've totally pigeon holed Townies in your post. Whereas you have listed 'traits' of the others, you've just listed what you dislike about Townies. I'd even say that you've done to Townies in your post which you yourself dislike others doing to you?

It's a two way street

Hmm, I think that labelling is getting dangerously close to stereotyping. I know of a few people who act very gothic but wear very colourful clothes indeed. I know some 'cyberpunks' with dreadlocks. I know people who wear burberry but don't aggravate everyone they see. Ah, it's a funny old world.

Although, I find it funny when I walk past 16 year olds who shout 'Get a hair cut!' at me, despite me being nearly old enough to be their dad... Ah, good ol' 'chavs'.

I'm with you on this one Matthew (i can't get used to calling you that). I've known Matt for 16 years or so and I was one of the people that used to be in his "Tribe". The way that i remember it was thus:

If you were into the alternative scene it was because you were

a) intelligent enough to realise that there was an alternative to following the fashion slave directive
picked on enough by the mainstream that thats where you ended up.

either way it tended to be that the alternative scene was proliferated with intelligent people that were polite enough and tended to shy away from violence (except on the dancefloor )

Now I have to admit that i wasn't there for the original punk movement (hell i was born in 1976) And my view of things might be radically different if I had been, as it strikes me that old school punks got a reputation for violence that was not undeserved. Yet every old school punk that i have ever spoken to has been intelligent enough and eloquent enough to be able to explain their political and social views.

Nowadays it all seems to me (IMHO) that it is about rebelion, aggression and antisocial behaviour for the sake of it, it's all self centered and self serving behaviour and the most common phrase when conversing with people is "F**k Off" and "'cause I want to". the amount of poseur posturing is unbelievable!

I went to a club in Edinburgh during the Edinburgh festival recently and had the misfortune of having 2 people on the dancefloor try to pick on me, presumably because I was older than most people in the club by a significant way, I was dancing quite merrily with the 2 girls I had gone to the club with when a guy barged past them and tried to push me over his mate who had gone on to all fours behind me. The manouver didn't work as the guy trying the shove was half my size and i had already noticed his friend behind me. My point is that this was a clear case of bullying ignoring all rules of mosh pit etiquette. It would never have happened during the period Matthew was intimating to.

I suppose that as an addendum I should clarify my idea of a moshpit. A moshpit is a gathering of likeminded individuals where a cathartic release of aggression is allowed and encouraged by all taking part. Shoving and punching (and to a lesser extent kicking) are allowed, head shots and pod shots are frowned upon, if someone goes down everyone tries to get them up.

Damn - I wanna be in your mosh pit!! Nowadays it's all about the pain, it would seem.

I'm too pretty to get all f@cked up!!

I have no problem with the pain, at the end of the day if I can't take the pain i leave the pit. But i'm a firm believer in give as good as you get in mosh pits. and that was my problem with the 2 idiots in Edinburgh, they weren't willing to take it as well as give it, it was a cheap shot and it was cowardly. And they took real objection to the fact that i picked up the guy that was trying to push me and slammed him bodily into his mate on the floor. If they didn't want to be treated like that they shouldn't have initiated the manouver!

I thought it was standard practice to help others up and limit hits to the head and other vital areas. There is the occasional buttnugget who decides it's better to push others around rather than work with the violent harmony. I also hate people who stand on the edge of the pit and act like you're the one with the problem when you slam into them.

I could list all of the school's little "groups" for hours.

Preps, Jocks, Cheerleaders (They all have the same exact personality traits, yet they don't hang out with each other.... I have yet to understand this.) Outcast, Deliquents (sit with the dorks) Dorks, Girly-girls and Peverted Guys. Oh, almost forgot the band geeks. How Dare I.

If you sit with the "Dorks" (*raises her hand*) then that just means that you don't fit in anywhere else... Or, You've figured out that the people who came up with this whole label system have way too much time on their hands and probly sat with the geeks.

There are no "wars" between groups, I'm friends with a couple of the Cheerleaders. Maybe I just go to a peacefull school. Or I'm completly oblivious to everything going on around me. Etheir one.

Gah.

You're going to get your bastards in any subculture. I think we need to stop thinking "Oh, you're a Goth, so you must be like this" - even if it's something positive because, at the end of the day, we're all human. There are million of horrible people in the world and it's irrelevant how they dress, what they're into. They're just bastards. End of. And I'm pretty sure it's always been like that.

I can't understand why people have to classify people mostly on the way they dress (and it is, at the end of the day - people look at a Goth, or Punk, or whatever, and make a judgment on their musical preferences, political views and religion). Why can't it just be about what people think is fun, or nice, or comfortable?

As for the pits comment - I've never found myself in one where someone falls and they're left there. Punches in the head are an unfortunate but common occurance, but often not intentional. So, y'know. It's probably again one of those times where you just ran into a bastard.

Ah the old mosh pit, and dancing ettiquette!

ER, just feel I need to try to clear a few things up, and after reading my original post and a few replies, feel some of it wasn't taken in the spirit it was meant...

Yeah, I'm well aware that labeling people is wrong, and that there are always a few bad apples around, but the group that I mention in my post is simply reinforcing the negative stereotypes that some people have... maybe they're venting their own frustration over various things through saftey in numbers, but it's aggression for aggresions sake.

The little Goth/Cyberpunk/Crustie thingie was just my attempt at a tongue in cheek way of pointing out stereotypes that we sometimes use ourselves...
And I've been called all of the above and more at various points of my own evolution...

All I was trying to provoke and discuss thought in was not "A Goddamn those pesky kids" thing nor was it " I've got a problem with certain types of people" lets all get judgemental... but to put the idea out there of community, no matter what you consider yourself to be, and how the idea doesn't seem to be around any more...

I used to find it a great comfort that no matter where I moved in this country, at some point I'd run into someone else dressed in black, tattoo'd or peirced, with funky dreads, who was reading a great book, was into esoteric music, who had ideas and theories: just someone with whom there'd be a spark of recognition that we were the one's the rest of the world considered odd... I've met many great friends this way and had many adventures!

Bryden42 Really put what I was trying to get at with far more eloquence than i've managed, in that there's no shared bond between the weirdos and outcasts anymore... I just wanted to know if anyone experienced anything simillar... maybe I'm doing what all old timers do and looking at the past through rose tinted glasses, but I don't think so.

Apologies if I aggravated anyone.

Matt, I think we're just old

*preens*
While you folk fear labels for fear labels because of dangers, I've never been labelled anything but quiet or shy.
Never had goth, rocker, townie, trendy or any of that.. dunno why, guess I don't really look like anything, so people just can't find a label to slap on me. I find the shy label amusing though. It's not really true that I am shy but having people use an inaccurate descriptive word to describe me rather than a general label is a lot nicer.
Pretty appreciate of it to be honest, feels like I can go to a "townie" pub and be ok there. Go into a goth club, and have intelligent conversation there, or even stand at street corners and chat with prostitutes and talk about the state of the economy, and no one would bat an eyelid!
*preens again*

The few pits that get started at the Cathouse (usually only on sundays when the "geezers" are all in attendance) are proper old fashioned ones. I know, I've taken part in them. Soon as someone goes down, they get hoisted up and out by about six people, there's no headshots or down-lows, and anything spiky gets ditched before one starts. That said, I was in a few pits at the Rammstein gig in the SECC and they were just viscious. I would have to agree that they're all about the pain - the guys starting them looked like a bunch of slapheads more than moshers, and were all drunk and out to hurt someone. Not pleasant when there are little people around!

Oh, and more on-topic, I was never a part of a group, per se. None of them wanted me in them So I was always a bit of an individual (or a bot of a loser, depending on how you look at it).

So your saying that the people who want to dance but not join the mosh pit aren't allowed? Because ye sometime I want to dance to a track that being played but I dont join in the mosh pit because I've a few to many dodgy joins already so dont want to get messed up any more so if I've no where else on the dance floor to go I'm going to glare and shove my elbow into anyone who comes flying out of the mosh pit at me because if I want to dance I've not much choise.




I think you'll find most of them lurking round on the internet these's day's. I know from going to meets from this forum I've met quite a few people like you describe here.

You ask a very nice Mod, such as myself, to move it and it gets done. There you go.

This is true. I met Matt(hew) when he was working in a video shop and we bonded over a repeatedly borked copy of Dark City, and friendship somehow bloomed from there, eventually ending up with us travelling to the US together and various other hi-jinks.

Part of the reason that this forum is the way that it is, is that I wanted to create a space where like-minded people could meet and chat about things that they enjoy. I think you're right Cath, these days it seems that most real bonding happens online, though I'm not sure why this has become the case. Maybe it's because any social movement that's too visual is plucked and commodified before it's really matured. This means that culture ends up a big melting pot, leading to a lack of defined groups and conflict between 'them' and 'us' ('us' being whoever you know and 'them' being any outsider). The internet can't be harvested in that way because it has no defining look, so there's still the chance for people to take their time and get to know each-other without judgements being drawn.

Hey, Bryden, have you got any old photos of Matt you could scan in?

I have but he has old photos of me, I dare say, and that would just be a bad thing!

Hehehehe...

Oh yes, me old mucker!

Nekkid ones!!!

I don't know about this shared bond not being there anymore because, on the first day of senior school I met about ten awesome people and we've hung out in a sort of clan ever since, and all we had in common is that we were all odd.

Living in a rural area, my high school was obviously small (360 pupils max.) and it also had a learning support centre attatched to help kids with learning disabilities. All this and you would think there would be happiness and rainbows thereafter!
Wrong- you had the jocks, the popular girls, the popular boys who weren't jocks, the wannabe (I hate that word!) popular girls, the "geeks", the "spastics" (I hate that word even more), the little wannabe punks (this one girl said she was more punk than me because she was wearing a bracelet which had the word Punk written on it. I was just getting her to argue with me because I found it funny, and so my friend joined in and asked her what her favourite punk band was. She said Good Charlotte...), the stoners and then there was my group of friends. We didn't really try to fit in, but we were once described as Greebos.
After all this, I hate classification of people into different groups, but I realise people find it necessary as how else would we differientiate (sp?!) between who we can be friends with and who we can't?
People always need to classify others so they can find a place where they fit in to the society, be it above or below others in the pecking order. What annoyed the "popular" people was that as my friends and I didn't believe that they were popular, it made them no better than us so the had no "power" over us as they did with others.

That used to piss them off about us too. If anyone calls me a goth now I either say thankyou (because I wear goth stuff because I like it so it's hardly an insult, I'm not even particulaly goth though), or I say detention (and the expresion of fear on the first years faces makes it all worth it).

To Bryden: I've only ever seen one snap of him with long hair, from back in the days of 'the N', so I'd love to laugh at... I mean... Err... 'See' more photos of his goth days.

I was in a group called the 'Reject Crew' and still am, well I like the people there and wouldn't have hung out with them if I didn't. But we were that (I named the group too ) because we were the people no one else seemed to like. However (ah a twist) we realised that we only were the rejects because of our dislike of everyone who we thought disliked us.

Now I'm out of college and I am meeting the people I used to go to school with but didn't actually talk to because they were "the popular people" I've come to realise that I've missed out on some really cool guys and girls. They only didn't talk to us because we were so ready to shut them out.

I know what you're talking about.
When I was say 12 people would come and chitty chat with me just because we were part of a similar subculture now they just want to rant about how you're not a proper goth if you wish to be comfortably dressed down or not wreck your good clothes.
It doesn't stop me being gravitated towards those sorts of people and just recently it's started to pay off with cool talkable to peoples.

My school was similar there- there was the 'popular' group but they 'geek' group was far larger and therefore the 'popular' kids lost all their sense of superiority and had to learn to chill out with their snobbiness. By the time I left high school, after 7 years, it was basically one big labelless live and let live mentality, it was great. I guess people really do mature. I tell you, having some drunk popular girl come up to me at the prom and tell me she always admired me for daring to be myself was a brilliant change from the abuse I got in my first three years!

I remember meeting some of the sporty/popular kids from my school quite a few years after I left it... And I liked them even less! I guess some people grow to be more intense versions of what they were as kids.

Back at school I was short, not at all sporty, generally 'nice' but not really particularly interesting. I just hadn't really grown into being an individual. When I got to 18/19 suddenly everything fell into place, I matured a lot and really became the seed of who I am today (which I'm very happy about). I suppose that it isn't really the fault of the sporty/popular people that they expected me to still be the same, but they still had an air of presumed-superiority about them that I just felt was pointless between adults.

My group of friends are generally called (by ourselves and others) social faliures or social regects. we are the ones who are fiarly popular, and like anything from indie to metal music. We also have some people who play rugby and basketball and some who are totally not sporty. But our most defining feature is probably that we are the more intelligent ones.

Lemme give an example, suppose you have a short, chubby guy in a tee shirt that says "CONFORM CONSUME OBEY" go see Surface with some buddies of his. Everyone's crowded around the stage and, of course, moshp pit breaks out. Also, suppose you have a big group of hardcore kids (remember: around here hardcore and metal don't mix) standing on the back half of the crowd surrounding the mosh pit when there's plenty of venue left to go to (these people were booing Surface to begin with, BTW, so I've no idea why they didn't hit the bar or go upstairs). Suppose said chubby guy were to go up against the pit wall into the various groups of hardcore kids standing there of their own volition. Suppose these hardcore kids (I'm doing a lot of supposing) were to angrily shove him away, scream at him, call him a "faggot," stick their fists out, stomp on him, etc. as though the he's done something wrong. This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about, dear. If they didn't like the heat, they shouldn't have been in the kitchen.

You cats mosh at clubs? It's strickly a concert thing here, like crowd surfing and stage diving. Dancing and moshing don't go together in my mind.

I was a band geek - and there's a lot of camraderie among us. Anywhere I go, I can find roughly 10% of the population who will have stories to share, jokes to tell. I don't know how it is with other groups, but band kids tend to stick togeather, no matter where you find us.

I may be responding to something that takes this all off in the wrong direction (at least for the duration of this post anyways) but I don't think the 'old' attitudes amoungst labelled groups has completely disappeared.

Personally I find labels irritating but they exist, I certainly don't believe that the camaraderie (sp?) within these groups has died, infact I believe it is still very much alive. I think it may be a reflection on the way people have become ever more cautious about overstepping boundaries and approaching people, the 'just in case' mentality that makes it a less prominent part of our social lives now, except for online relations which seem less inhibited. Less fear of being physically damaged if you approach the wrong person maybe?

Speaking from experience this 'bonding' with complete strangers because of a perceived similarity still thrives in the right places. Myself and Cath went out for a most satisfying evening of heavy music, sarcastic dancing like loonies and why should we care if everyone is staring at us activity ( a fantastic evening which is soon to be repeated, yey!).
Although I hardly go out and Cath was visiting and therefore new to the place not once did we feel uncomfortable because of the people. However my main point revolves around the offer of two I believe the term would be Rockers of the rather heavy variety offered to escort us to the city centre. Based purely on their conclusion that, as gentlemen of Rock it was their duty to escort ladies of rock and render assistance and company whenever such creatures were spotted. (their words not mine I have NEVER been referred to as a lady before! I could get to like it).
Although neither myself or Cath fit snugly into the expected stereotypical 'Rock' type leaning more to 'Goth' (not that we ever admit it of course) it was the fact that these wonderful gentlemen thought there was enough in common to offer their assistance (after calling in with girlfriends for permission).

Surely chivalry and the acts of comradeship offered to complete strangers based upon shared perceptions and sometimes appearences is not dead, just a little more careful in its dealings to avoid a pounding!

Hmm...I think I lost my way a little but hopefully the point struggles through eventually with Caths help.

Interesting point there, which raises the question of what influence gender has over group behaviour. I think that it's more likely that people will make 'label-based' new friendships with people of the gender that they are attracted to (where they are fairly sure they will have something in common) than they would with people of their non-gender preference.

In terms of friendship groups, I have several. Since we were tiny, I have been very close friends with a girl called Lisa, who now spends a lot of time hanging around with a group of people I tend to categorise in my mind as "f---ing posers". They're popular, and "alternative" and all spend their entire time trying to prove to each other how 'ard they are And they sort of come together against outsiders - I guess this is the whole "popular and intimidating" thing. Which is rather scary. I'm not really part of that group, just tolerated because I'm friends with Lisa and I like the right sort of music.

I'm also rather closer friends with Laura, and kinda Katie, who come from a bizzare social group. It's a huge, sprawling group where everyone knows everyone else and no-one is really classifiable. There are quite a lot of what I guess you'd call geeks in there too.

And I'm a band geek All the music people know each other

It's strange, really. I could probably give most people in my year at least one or two social groups which I associate with them. It's like theres a little core of people who form each group, and everyone else is just kinda freebasing.

mata. I will see what i can dig up in the way of photos, And if Matt says it's ok i will send over some of the less incriminating ones.