Okay, so I was having this discussion (read: arguement) with a mate earlier, and I just wanted to get a few opinions and stuff from other people on it.

My position is, that it's ridiculous to be proud of something that you didn't "cause". I am British, beacuse I was born in Britain. Why is this something to be proud of? It was nothing to do with me, merely the accident of where my parents were at the time.

Similarly gay pride. Why? To me being "proud" of being gay makes as much sense as being proud of being 5' 10" or being proud of having brown eyes. It's not an achievement, it's just a fact of who you are.

I would say that you should feel proud of things you have done or said or influenced in some way, not things that you had no control over whatsoever.

Any thoughts?

I guess when people get told they are deviants and evil they sometimes want to feel good about themselves, and though the attributes(?) might not be a goal or whatever they've sough after and slaved for (heh) it not summit they want to be ashamed of. To think about where and what circumstances being proud to be a nationality or sexuality or what ever. Yeah, it'd be great if we all really didn't give a poo about all that equal ops forms question data stuff but people do, and people can be very mean to other people reasoning with it. So maybe when you get told your the scum of the earth, less than human, have some sort of mental disorder. Case in point: I've never to any harmful degree been picked on because I've size 8 feet, I have however had people really upset me and question why I had to be born to parent's who didn't share the same ethnicity. And on those days when I felt like shite, and started to assume most people thought these things about me when they met me it really can make a self esteem boost to be told that I should be proud of the mixed I have from my parents because not many people do- and more over not many people are aware of it. Blah blah blah.

A state of contentment and utalising what you have might be more 'the way', but just not how it works.

I can see what you're saying frog, but I still don't think that pride is the right feeling for these things. I'm /happy/ that I'm mixed race, but I wouldn't say it was something that I was proud of, because it wasn't my doing. I don't know if I'm just being too hung up on the word here, but when people say "be proud of your ethnicity", I'm thinking "okay, feel positive about it, don't under any circumstances be ashamed of it, or feel bad because of it, don't feel inferior or superior to anyone because of it" but I just don't see pride fitting in there.

Maybe this is because I've been luckier than you in that I've never really had anyone have a problem with me being mixed race (probably beacuse it isn't that obvious to look at me, so you have to know me to know).

Okay, fair point. I think it words like this, as far as I am concerned: I feel -10 for being called whatever, someone tell me +10 dont be ashamed be proud you blahyadaetc. The pendulum swings and then one day x years later I am sitting there thinking, yeah - I'm cool. But to get out of that funk sometimes an equally opposite thing is needed. Prolly also comes down to exactly how you are defining pride. If we are going by the "satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements" definition, then sure- you are what yo uare- you got what you got. That you've an inordinatly large penis is nothing to be proud of- that you know how to use it to the satisfaction of you and your partner- is.

[22:41:27] <Becky> I think the thing that you're missing
[22:41:38] <Becky> is that you don't just have to be proud of what YOU do with YOUR life
[22:41:47] <Becky> you can be proud of other people
[22:42:11] <Becky> and so I guess that's how people can be proud to be gay, or proud to be British
[22:42:39] <Becky> Because you are glad that you are part of a clique that have done certain things
[22:42:43] <Becky> or act a certain way
[22:44:11] <Becky> although personally I would say that I am proud of what certain English people have done
[22:44:15] <Becky> I'm not proud to be English
[22:44:29] <Becky> because really, the English have done a whole LOAD of shitty shitty things
[22:45:00] <Becky> But then again, their contribution towards art and literature has been astounding
[22:45:05] <Becky> Not to mention science

I was told to post this and not just say it in IRC.

So you should be proud of things you choose to be, but not things you have no choice in being?

I can be proud of Daria having a firm arse?

I feel like I should stop being such a lurkaholic, especially as I continue to go to meets on occasion.

I myself am proud of plenty of things I didn't have any control in. I am proud of my mum for raising me as a single parent and keeping a roof over my head.

I am proud of my friend that beat his agraphobia and moved far away to be with someone he cares about and is building a proper life for himself.

I am even proud of little minor things my friends and family do all the time.


I think there is room for in the definition pride for the pride you take in the accomplishments of people that mean something to yourself, even if you had no direct influence on those things.

For some people they stretch the phrase "people that are close to them" to including their whole ethnicity/sexual orientation/gender (hardcore spreading the love). When your own ethnicity (or etc..) has had a history of being put down and has pushed ahead despite that it, then it's quite an accomplishment. People feel pride in their race in the same way they feel proud of a friend or family member for accomplishing things.

It's not anything that's going to stop really. It's built into the human condition really. Football fans do it when their teams win. Fathers and mothers do it when their kids do well (regardless of if it was with their help or not (even absenty parents still somehow manage to feel proud of their kids)).
I think it's something to just live with about the human condition; we like being a part of things.

As to whether I am proud of my race.. hm. Nope, not really. I think race pride has a habit of glossing over the issues a race has. People get caught up with the phrase "that's just how we do things", then get overly sensitive when someone points out "well the way you do things is broken!" If people with an over flowing amount of pride in their race/nationality/gender were perhaps a little less defensive then perhaps I would feel a little more pride for things I happen to be aligned with.

Nicely put.


What exactly was said in this discussion/ argument? What were you feeling before this provocation to make a thread?

While I see your point about only being proud of things you are responsible for, which would discount things such as nationality, I think it could be useful to look at the atonym of pride: shame. Would it be right to be ashamed of being gay? No, of course not, but some people in the world believe you should be.

Pride in things is such things usually a reaction to negativity. Ideally that negativity wouldn't exist, but it often does and so I can understand the need to counter it. In the perfect world there would be no need to be proud of things that you didn't cause, because there would be no shame associated with them, but in an effort to create that world the negative side of things needs to be balanced out.

(Which is horribly written, but I'm typing very fast on my lunchbreak! I hope you get what I'm aiming at.)

Think you articulation was much cleaer than mine, and yours is what mine was getting at

I'm not sure about this. On the one hand, the feeling manifestly exists, but I still feel uncomfortable with that coming under the label of "pride". But that really just comes down to my own feeling of what the word is, which is clearly different to that of everyone else's.



Again, it isn't that I object to this at all, it's the use of the word pride. This thread was inspired by me witnessing a couple of members of the lgbt society chastising another for "not showing enough Pride", as they didn't feel he was dressed "gay" enough. This pissed me off, as it's pretty damn intolerant to insist all gay people should dress alike, even if it's the gay people doing the insisting. However, that's an example of what Mata and frog were talking about, taken too far, in general what is done/said/felt in the name of pride is positive, and I don't dispute that. I would still restrict the /word/ to be for personal achievements/choices/actions, but I guess I'm in the minority here.

Oh, well that has nothing to do with "pride". Those guys were just being jerks because someone wasn't dressed like them.

- was for Moosh, also what's your definition of pride?

It's load of bollox being told/expected/ had a go at/ denounced/ told you are not really *blackwhitestaightgayfemalemalechristianyadayaddayadda* to dress a certain way to be proud/ represent your x/y/z. It's a really bollox attitude: putting your idea of the conventions of whatever onto someone else. I's just a way of being elitist and you can only be in our gang if you wear you school tie 4cm long and tucked into your shirt on Thursday for 4th period. So, to me sounds like your issue is really with them and how they are defining pride and how they are using it to be all clique and all that baloney. I hate twats like that. "Oh the world discriminates against us because we are just being who we were born as being true to ourselves, not denying what we are, and if your a gay you have to be a gay our way or else you are not being a real gay." Coz then they really are being narrominded fools. I do hope this guy didnt fall into the OH NOES I MUST BE A GAY LIKE THEM TO BE REAL GAY *frown*

I myself tend to feel proud about things/situations that either I or people I know have achieved personally.

I do have admiration for those who have managed to end or try and block any sort of negative behaviour i.e slavery, sexism, abuse etc, no matter how that has been brought about.

I think it important to recognise such great achievements, but to feel proud for something you didn't personally take part in doesn't make an awful lot of sense of me.

I suspect that there is good reason for the chastising, though I disagree with it. The opposite of pride, so far as I understand it, is shame, and in some instances, a lack of overt pride can be perceived as being ashamed of something. Homosexuality was considered shameful for a long, long time in western culture, and only recently has really begun to deal with that, so I'd assume that some people are afraid of the culture of shame returning and thus desire an over-abundance of overt pride.

When looked at as the opposite of shame, I think it is reasonable to be proud of your country/race/religion/family/etc, because I do not think that anybody should feel ashamed of what they are. All nations/races/religions have done great things, things that can and should make you proud - I think it is better to dwell on those as inspiration than to dwell on the shameful things as a warning.

Why does pride or shame have to be a binary thing though? I wouldn't say I was proud of being asian, or British, or gay, but does this mean I'm ashamed of being any of them? No, of course not. I don't feel that you must be either proud or ashamed of something. Why can it not just be something about yourself, not to be proud or ashamed but just to be?

Haha, now I'm all for gay rights (I voted No on number 2!---for you Brits that's Florida amendment to define marriage between a man and woman, which sadly passed), but I joked about organizing a "straight parade", because it does seem silly....but I mean, in the sense of national pride, I can see wanting to voice that...I mean you say you're British because that's where your mom was at the time, but British morales, culture, art, history shaped who you are today. I mean, I'm an American and I'm proud of that fact...it has shaped who I am to an extent, the fact that I was born and raised here, and I'm overall happy with the outcome of myself, and I have in part this country's influence to thank for that ( the laws of this country, the government ideal, the propaganda- in part) ...I hope I'm making sense...Yes, people should have a sense of pride of things they have no control over, such as country, (to an extent) because those things could have an effect on things that you do have control over (actions).


* BTW *- this is my satanic post! #666...dun dun dun....scary music...STAIRCASE OF SATAN!!! POND OF DEATH!!!

Just so you know, there's a protest at City Hall, 1:30 on Saturday. (Orlando. I have no idea how far that is from Yulee.)

Not to get lost in semantics, but my dear friend the dictionary sayeth:
pride |prīd| noun
1 a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired : the team was bursting with pride after recording a sensational victory | a woman who takes great pride in her appearance.
• the consciousness of one's own dignity : he swallowed his pride and asked for help.
• the quality of having an excessively high opinion of oneself or one's importance : the sin of pride.
• a person or thing that is the object or source of a feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction : the swimming pool is the pride of the community.
THE RIGHT WORD: If you take pride in yourself or your accomplishments, it means that you believe in your own worth, merit, or superiority—whether or not that belief is justified. -OED

What you're getting at, CheeseMoose, is definition (a), in which case you'd be totally correct and I agree; I know I didn't 'achieve' anything by being gay, nor do I think it's 'widely admired'. So there's that.

What I think some other people are getting at, though, is the 'consciousness of one's own dignity' or 'object of satisfaction'. In that sense, yes, I've marched in Pride Parades with the best of them. When it comes to something like being gay, or mixed-race, or whatever else, there's often a prevailing sentiment that this makes you worth less as a human being, and therefore asserting one's sense of dignity isn't incorrect, even if it's something you didn't 'achieve' yourself. It's believing in your 'worth' or 'merit'. It's not always justified. Sometimes people are indeed proud of appalling things, or take it too far. But that doesn't mean one can discount every sort of inclusive pride.

I just want to pick up on some of the comments made about "pride by proxy", as I'll call it. Taking pride in stuff that has nothing to do with you other than some terse association.

Having pride for one's country (or not) is very much dependent on how you look at the history of your nation. Yes, I could very easily look at Britain and say "God, what a hell hole of a place!" How can we be proud of a country that gave the world football hooliganism, binge drinking and chavs? How can we be happy with a nation that has an open door policy on immigration, panders to the bully-boy tactics of the US or the fact that we are the only democracy in the world with an unelected leader? But as Pgrmdave says, why dwell on the negative?

Well, okay, so what about the positives? The fact that Britain gave the world almost every sporting activity known to mankind? And that, of those it didn't, it inspired? How about the fact that, if Britain hadn't stood up to Germany on two separate occasions, every European would be speaking German and maybe killing Jews? Or the fact that it was Britons who discovered India, Australia and the Americas? (the latter by accident, but we'll forgive Columbus that one!) Or that Britain is still the motor racing capital of the world? Or that we're still an economic superpower, despite all the credit crunch nonsense? Or that we were the first to develop proper medical treatment and facilities AND provide it for free? Or that it's a hotbed of musical talent?

So, it's not all bad. And as Aislinn says, because of what Britain has achieved means that my family and I can live my life without fascist oppression, have a decent standard of living, be able to voice our opinions and know that, despite being a country which has long since had it's heyday, it can still mix it with its larger European peers. Britain may not be great anymore and there are other countries that give better opportunities, but it's still okay. Okay Britain.

But to move on to "associated pride" - taking pride in the achievements of others. Why not? I like to feel good about the achievements of those I care about. My wife gets a better job, my eldest daughter takes part in a parade with her Sea Cadet unit, my youngest daughter nails her maths test, my son hits a six in a cricket match... these are all things that make me proud. Not just proud of them, but proud for them and proud to be connected with them. But in these cases, I can feel like I've had an influence: Giving my wife encouragement, helping my kids with their homework and taking them to their activities, it's all about empowering them to grow and giving them room to do that. My pride in their achievements becomes pride in myself for being able to help them, even in a small way, to reach them.

I think, Cheesemoose, you are in the minority. Sorry, bud. Maybe you need to accentuate the positives in your life. Don't become the victim of your worst review.