This is what my friends and I do in our spare time..

I'm personally trying to get this bull removed from our schools, by whatever means possible. Written by my friend Chris and I.

I pledge no allegiance to the flag of the Divided States of Embarrassment, and to the religion that stole the nation, 300 million people, under Fox News, with intolerance and bigotry for all.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/note.php...49&comments
http://the-fragged-mind.blogspot.com/2009/...allegiance.html

What do you hope to accomplish by all of this?

Maybe if we mess it up enough and get enough people saying it the wrong way, schools will just abandon it? Or *at least* remove the "under God". 'Cos we've tried a more tactful approach, but we were sort of brushed aside with a "Sorry guys, that's just the way we do it." I mean, do you really need to pledge your allegiance every day?

Ooh, fun thought. Let's count up how much time the average American student wastes on this. A minute a day, five times a week, 180 times a year, over a course of 13 years. (Hey, at least we finally stopped singing the National Anthem, too.). 195 hours. A little over 8 days. I'd rather just not show up for 8 days, or get 8 days worth of extra instructional time made up for the time lost. (People can take that on an individual basis.)

Negative attention is still attention, I suppose.

"Under God" wasn't part of the original Pledge, strangely enough. I think it was added in the 50's. Also, no one can force you to say the Pledge in school. You are perfectly free to just stand respectfully and remain silent.

I'm not a fan of the Pledge, either, and haven't said it in at least 15 years. If you feel strongly about it, by all means, make a fuss. Preferably in a mature way that seems a bit less like you're flailing your arms and screaming "Look at me! I'm such a rebel!" just for the sake of seeming edgy. Go to the schoolboard, give them a well-worded argument, and keep going back until you aren't brushed aside. But I really can't see your revised Pledge thing catching on. When have you ever known excessively patriotic people to just "give up"? I can promise you that schools won't just abandon it because a few kids are saying an altered version.

I thought they couldn't force you to pledge allegiance to the flag anymore. I thought that schools could still do it, but if you wanted to respectfully decline that was an option. Even when I was in school and it was a required practice, I still was able to just stand there and space out for the 20 seconds it took.

Anywho, no offense, but I don't think changing the words to the pledge is going to accomplish much other than people just thinking it's being a bit childish like changing the lyrics of Jingle Bells to Jingle Bells Batman Smells.

We don't have to say it, but you still have to stand there and listen to everyone else say it. If people want to say it, whatever, that's their choice, but I don't see why we have to set time aside in school to do it.

The revised pledge can be plan B. I'll try to round up my friends (and other people) on Monday/Tuesday, maybe set up a meeting with some administration person, go in there with like 30+ people. Meh.. And who cares if it's a bit immature? It's catchy, if we get more people saying it, it'll get more attention (negative or not), and something will have to be done about the pledge. Because yeah, they're not going to want anyone saying that, it promotes a negative image. But as far as I can think, legally there's little they can do about it. So give in, or we won't stop. Childish tactics, but it doesn't stop it from working. (Again, plan B.)

...In our defense, it's a huge improvement from the Michael Jackson is a fag version that was popular in second grade...

Just refuse to participate. Your approach wil just anger people and get you into trouble, without really accomplishing anything.

Which is what they will expect from someone your age. Going in there with an intelligent and well-thought out argument might just knock them back on their heels and give you the advantage.

You would be surprised how many times this argument has been dealt with in schools - and I'm sure if it wasn't the pledge, or Izzy's idea somehow made all administrative personnel into open minded liberals who all marched down to Washington with a ~song in their heart~ and her on their shoulders cheering and ready to burn down churches*, it would become something else Theism related. Then, once all of the schools have banned any reference to any/a supreme being existing, Izzy will grow up and have talk of a God banned in America by saying they were all stupid and/or oppressing her.

I'm sorry, this just sounds exactly like the old religion thread, and I have noticed that your obsession with God/Theists hasn't died down if your FB statuses are any indication. It isn't at all likely that the pledge will be removed or that you are the first person who has done this. I agree with kids having a cause, but I feel like your ideas behind the cause and the plausibility of the cause null any profit that could come of it - and one school is a very small scale. If you wanted your idea to catch on, you would have to cast a much wider net, otherwise it seems like, 'Okay, I don't have to say the pledge, no one else has to say it, I'm going to sit here in satisfaction that at least it isn't ME and envision you all CRYING because of what I have done to your precious beliefs that I do not agree with!!'

Preferably in a mature way that seems a bit less like you're flailing your arms and screaming "Look at me! I'm such a rebel!" just for the sake of seeming edgy.
^what candice said sums up a lot of how this sounds.

Have you ever considered putting this kind of time and energy into, say, cancer research?

*yeah, it sounds harsh, but again, that is exactly how you come off when it comes to religion.

eta: this was posted on Izzy's fb pledge thread to point it out, but she can't say this pledge either because of: with intolerance and bigotry for all, what with her being so intolerant of Theists.

Okay, but what if, *this time*, I actually made an entirely non religious case of why the pledge should be removed from schools? To sum up the debate that when on in the comments section of this one FB poll earlier:

It is a complete and utter waste of time (along with pep rallies) and has no bearing in a public school when it takes up instructional time. I will compare it to prayer simply because it is of the same nature, and not because I don't agree with prayer in general (which syuu summed up for me already ). Both are CHOICES, that can be done on your own time, without me caring too much about it. If you want to have some student get together every morning a minute before the bell rings and say the pledge (which can be done, we have a group of 80 or so students that stand in a circle and pray), fine by me. While America and is and great and stuff and whatever (it's not the worst country, far from it, but definitely not the best either, so people can stop pretending it is), some things, especially organized prayer, _do not belong in schools_. The pledge is entirely controversial (except in elementary school, where you just say it because everyone else is, without it ever actually being explained to you), and as a general rule of thumb, schools have made great strides to avoid influencing your opinion on controversial topics (which is why teachers aren't supposed to tell you what religion they are, what they think about abortion, etc.). So this one dude on FB went on about us having the choice, being a nation with the freedom to choose. (Debate is here.) Well.. By his logic I should be allowed to by your logic, can I, daily, during the announcements and not as a club, with other students, pledge my allegiance to another country, Stalin, the Pope, Monster Energy Drink, porn, or a band I like, daily, during the announcements. (Lol, and he actually agreed, and then I told him how stupid of an idea that was.) Because, while I am entirely entitled to believe in all of those things, that doesn't mean I should waste the time of my peers with it. If we formed a student organization, whatever, that's not during school time. But if everyone got to pledge to whatever they wanted during the announcements, there wouldn't be any time to learn things left over. And learning is far more important than organized pledging.

Then why aren't you pitching a huge fit over pep rallies? Oh, because your reasons behind it, no matter how many you can name, are still religious. Why aren't you writing the theme songs for the worst countries, since you clearly hate this one so much? I'd hate to hear what rants you've prepared for those horrible places. By the way, you gave me non-prayer reasons and summed it up with a note about....how prayer doesn't belong in school?

Personally, I went through my OMG THE PLEDGE SEZ UNDER GOD OMG OMG phase in fifth grade until I realized that I really didn't care about it because it doesn't have anything to do with me. It lasted a week. I agree about prayer not belonging in school, but we aren't arguing JUST this argument - I know your feelings on religion, and I personally find your attitude about a thousand times more arrogant, hateful, intolerant, and bigoted than 99% of the religious conservatives I've ever met. You fail to realize you are JUST LIKE THEM while touting yourself as an open minded person. It's ridiculous. So, if this maybe came from someone with less of a HUGE BEEF about anyone who believed in prayer (based on other things you said, I find it hard to believe you don't care about your fellow students having a prayer circle. Don't bother.), I might agree with their argument. But you want the whole pledge removed, and the whole pledge isn't prayer based. So either you honestly do want your, what, ten seconds a day back, or you're yet another kid who thinks it's totally edgy and getting you anywhere to talk about how AWFUL the country is. Like I said, pour your energy into fixing something, then. Go volunteer, go give your time and (abundant) energy to a cause that could actually HELP people instead of spending your time whining and moaning about how everyone should agree with your personal bias.

I think you would be more successful if you don't alienate people by bringing religion or politics into it. Why complain about 2 words when you have much bigger objections to it, like that the forced patriotism runs counter to the very ideals the pledge is supposed to be representing (freedom of expression etc)

I agree with syuu about casting a wider net if you want to make a difference, but I really don't think this is something worth fighting for.

This is not an issue so much as a symptom of a greater problem. While we could treat the symptom and ban or modify the pledge, it would not fix the real issue. The real issue is that the USofA has allowed people to choose what they want to be, to do, to like, to dislike, to say, to think, et cetera without giving them a good way to resolve their differences or a mandate that says "live and let live" or something similar. Once people realize this again, en masse, there will be a paradigm shift so that this issue will no longer exist.

Of course, the above is just my belief... YMMV.

Typo. The rest of that thought applies to the pledging, entirely. Typo, seriously. (Though it holds true for prayer.)

*shrugs* Pep rallies can come next if I feel like it? Honestly, I just thought about that today. Pep rallies only influence people beliefs to the point of "Oh, hey, my football team is going to beat your football team, in your face, hahaha". But yeah, they're a total waste of time, though I think the pledge is a bit more important right now?

Dude when did I ever say I hate the US? It has it's problems, just like every other country, and I even said it's far from the worst. I have to admit, I'm pretty happy living here. I just said that is isn't the best.

I was using prayer as an example because it is another thing that just doesn't belong in schools. Yeah, I'm personally entirely against the "under God" part of the pledge, but I don't think any of it belongs in schools, so I'm not biasing myself against it based on those two words. So.. I dunno, my argument still stands. Syuu, I'm not the only person that agrees with my argument. Saying you disagree with it purely because of my attitude towards religion isn't a very good defense. If you have other reasons, by all means let them be known, but until them I'm going to say that my argument stands. If I bothered enough, I could find religious people that agree. (Again, typo, it was seriously meant to say 'pledging' and not 'prayer'.

*shrugs* Different people will fight different battles. As this one directly affects me, I'm at least going to try.

You seem to have missed the point of that question. Your major argument for whining about the pledge instead of simply sitting down and not saying it was that it is a waste of your time - so are a lot of things, and you obviously have no interest in going after any of those other activities or points of downtime in your day. That nullifies your argument as something that you threw up there as a non-religion related reason. Why you're so desperate to act as though your anti-pledge feelings aren't rooted in religion is beyond me, because you make it so obvious that it is all by yourself.

Your other issue had to do with pledging to this country, right? Since..it isn't religion? So, only the 'best country' can have a pledge? If any other country even vaguely shows some kind of pride, they are HORRIBLE PEOPLE, right? Your argument makes no sense. We've gone over how it isn't anywhere near the top of the list of time wasters, we've acknowledged that every country has a right to like and take pride in itself, as only one can be 'the best' and it's clearly a matter of opinion, and the rest is your issue with a God. So, I take that back, if anyone else made the same argument you personally are making, I'd think it was just as much of a mess as I do right now.

I never said you were the only one that agrees with the base idea of it. In fact, I wouldn't mind at all if we removed the pledge. It's your see-through reasoning, the fact that your argument has so many holes it's embarrassing, and then to top it off, everything aside from the religious part looks like you threw it in to say 'LOOK!! LOOK!! IT'S NOT JUST RELIGION, I DON'T JUST HATE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE!!' Making up a parody pledge that basically calls the entire country hateful, stupid sheep doesn't make it look like your opinion is 'America isn't the worst country, it just isn't the best!' either. I don't know why you always backtrack to soften something harsh you've said when you've already said the harsh version. I am not a goldfish, I can remember (or scroll up) to see everything you've said.

Maybe if you said something like, 'the pledge has no point', I'd believe you. But all of your other points are either things you've proven you don't believe, make no sense, or are simply hypocritical. You haven't addressed the idea of putting your energy into something that betters peoples' lives, either, which makes me wonder if you don't just like to stir up controversy for the sake of doing it.

There's actually very little we do in school in a day that is a "waste of time". Pep rallies are bimonthly, not daily, and attendance is optional. The difference between pep-rallies and the pledge is that, although both are optional, the kids that choose to attend the pep rally leave class to do so, while everyone that wants to stay in class can, without learning being disrupted. What else is there in my day? The chatting between work being completed and the teacher teaching us something else? Unavoidable - everyone works at different paces. Lunch? A necessity. There's hardly enough between everyone finding each other, getting lunch, and actually eating anyway. The announcements? Well, I generally like knowing what school events are going on, what's for lunch, any cool contests, etc. The time between classes? Is a bit short tbh. Pretty much have to run, depending what side of the campus I'm on and where I need to go. The pledge? Oh, hai, that I could do without.

Dude, if I openly admit, all the time, how anti-religious I am, what would my point be to cover this up? We've established that, you can stop creating a strawman now and take my argument for what it is, not the religious implications you want me to have.

Btw, this dude (whose post you can actually see in the original debate thread) is Christian and agrees with me. That's a minor fail on your part.

QUOTE

Your other issue had to do with pledging to this country, right? Since..it isn't religion? So, only the 'best country' can have a pledge? If any other country even vaguely shows some kind of pride, they are HORRIBLE PEOPLE, right? Your argument makes no sense. We've gone over how it isn't anywhere near the top of the list of time wasters, we've acknowledged that every country has a right to like and take pride in itself, as only one can be 'the best' and it's clearly a matter of opinion, and the rest is your issue with a God. So, I take that back, if anyone else made the same argument you personally are making, I'd think it was just as much of a mess as I do right now.

[color=purple]What? You're making stuff up again. I don't care about the existence of the pledge, I care about it being present in schools. We've gone over how it is one of the primary time wasters _in school_, I don't care if a country wants to take pride in itself, and this has nothing to do with God. Man. You are so just twisting my argument into what you want it to be (just another "God is bad" rant) so you can think you have a reason to be wrong when in fact you're ignoring my points entirely.


Dude, chill with the religion. Accept that I'm capable of disliking other things, yeah?

Yeah, the pledge was distasteful. That was the point. The point was to morph it into something as anti-American (or something Americans would disagree with, it was almost "one nation, under Westboro Church") as possible so people could disagree with it. Then we throw in some "Hey, freedom of speech" stuff, point out that they're essentially doing the same thing and it just happens to be with an opinion more people agree with, which somehow leads to it being removed. 'Cos if we can pledge one thing in schools, why can't we pledge with opposite? It's only fair?

In case you once again aren't capable of following my logic, let me clear it up. I don't actually agree that the US is some terrible country, nor do I completely agree with the pledge we wrote. The point is that it uncovers the the flawed reasoning behind having the pledge in schools to begin with. If the school can decide that saying one thing is okay, but saying the opposite is a nono, then that violates freedom of speech and is wrong. Rather than just banning the opinion they disagree with, both should just be taken out of schools, especially as really, unless it's a club or something, neither have a place there.


Ready? THE PLEDGE HAS NO POINT. That's what all my other points were trying to point out, but you somehow missed that entirely.


Because you're doing nothing but turning them into strawman arguments so you can disagree with me for my feelings towards theists.

I donate blood (or, well, have once, but plan to whenever I can). I am an officer of two school clubs where we organize events and do all the not so fun stuff that needs to be done. I'm in Mu Alpha Thetha, where along with competing we provide free after school math tutoring. I do the dishes. Uh.. I dunno, the rest of my time is spent in school, doing school related things, or doing things I enjoy doing (like this). I could try to find the cure for cancer, but I don't think I'd be very successful at that right now. We just have to accept that in certain times of our lives, there are battles we can fight, and battles we can't. I'm probably capable of fighting this one right now, and if it will enhance my life, what's so bad about that?

Oh, hey, the Issues forum has been awfully dead lately.. Can we bump this over there for old time's sake? ?

What I saw there were things that you, personally, consider not to be wastes of time. What about the thoughts of others? What if someone likes to say the pledge? Oh, yeah, it's there for them, and you can sit there and do something useful for those ten seconds. Well, assuming you have something planned for them. And with all this resentment..you do, don't you? I mean, of course you get those eight days a year compiled into brand new days all on their own where you can frolick and do whatever you like, it isn't like they're still ten seconds once every day while other people can do something they may want to and you can opt out of it. This country is so inhumane, what with its forci--oh, wait, you aren't forced. Sorry.

Also, lmfao @ 'he's Christian and he agrees with me'. That's like people accused of racism going, 'dude, I have black friends.' I don't care who agrees with you. I have no opinion on the pledge either way, but I think your reasoning is a farce. For the 18th time. If you do care so much about who agrees with you, I haven't seen anyone in this thread, you know, the one where we're debating? That thread. Nobody's gone, 'OMG Izzy, great idea!' Mostly, people have acknowledged that it's not really ten seconds worth crying and kicking about for extra attention. I haven't used that because I know that the more you tell someone there is no point, the more of a potential martyr they feel like they'll become.



You do realize arguments can go on about implications, right? Like, how you tend to imply ten thousand things and then go 'I never said that'? Yeah, that. Re: it being present in schools, that brings me back to pointing out the fact that like I said, maybe some people do want to say the pledge and you are allowed to opt out of it. It isn't my fault that you say bad things about a country up and down and then state that you have a problem with the content of the pledge. The. Content. You are the one who brought up the content of it. I am proving that your issues with the pledge's content are invalid. Now, if you want to say your only issue with it is suddenly that we're saying it in school, fine by me, we both know you're full of it. That wasn't what you said in your original arguments, though. You hashed the content, you whined about your time being wasted. Don't say I'm twisting your words when these were your words and implications in the first place. Don't worry, I wont insult your debate 'technique', since we all know you're the master at these and always win. You know, because you're always right.

And there's no need to even touch that 'you're ignoring my points', it speaks for itself.

I bring up religion because for the 3219i8471289381212399th time, your argument is based on religion. Then you say it isn't. Now you're like, 'OMG, fine, it is!! Geez, chill!!' There wouldn't be anything to address if you hadn't denied it. Hurr.

So, wait. You want to pledge this ~*~edgy~*~ pledge to upset people so that you can go 'NOW YOU KNOW HOW THIS OPPRESSION FEELS'? Go ahead and pledge with the opposite. It does debunk your whole 'America isn't a bad country!' spiel, though. Oh, no, sorry, you were being edgy on purpose. You don't actually believe the parody pledge. ..Right?



Hey, internet high five, you did it! Now you can stop making up things about how you really want your ten seconds back!



Wow. Here, let me cite for you where I acknowledged that you said America isn't the best country or the worst. If you need a few where I point out that I obviously understand you disagree with the content of the pledge, scroll up. You know, if you're capable of reading.

Making up a parody pledge that basically calls the entire country hateful, stupid sheep doesn't make it look like your opinion is 'America isn't the worst country, it just isn't the best!' either.

See? I obviously know you said it. Do I believe it? Not necessarily, based on other things you have said, so why argue? That one is obviously a matter of opinion.



Please scroll up to the part about why I'm talking to you about theism. If you can follow it, I mean.



Thank you. Next time, don't make snappy remarks about me not reading what you write when it took you several posts to answer one question repeatedly asked to you. You're getting much better at this logic thing.

Presumably those other things either a) have a good reason for being in schools or b ) are more difficult to change. It doesn't nullify the argument. That's a bit like saying that it is hypocritical to help homeless people without first solving world hunger... it shouldn't be the relative importance of the issue that matters, but whether it is important enough to act on and whether you can actually make a difference.

It has nothing to do with the country. To me the pledge seems silly and outdated. While I am proud of many things my country does, it is just that, a country, and there is no way I value it more than my own life and the people around me, so to pledge allegiance to my country (or any country) would be entirely meaningless.

My feelings on this are pretty much the same as the prayer in schools thing (sorry to bring this back to religion again). Yeah, you don't have to actually say it, (although you are probably expected to) but you are still participating just by being there, and there is no reason for it to be in schools.

*Side note* Izzy and Syuu, I think you should both reconsider the tone of your posts if you are going to continue discussing this. I am sensing a lot of hostility in this thread.

My statement that it nullifies the argument has to do with my theory that the actual reason for Izzy being against the pledge does not have to do with it being a waste of time, because it isn't. Give me examples of what else you would do with that time and how that time would benefit you otherwise, I'll concede. Personally? I don't think ten seconds of extra learning time is important enough to kick and scream over, but that's me. I'm curious to see whether what Izzy does does make a difference, and if it does, I will applaud her for doing something constructive that she believes in. Your comparison does have a point, but like I said..saying that those ten seconds every day is important to you and that it is one of your primary reasons for going after the pledge seems flimsy at best, and I don't buy it.



I agree that the pledge is silly and outdated, and I've stated in this thread that I couldn't care less about it being removed from schools. My issue, again, is with Izzy's argument surrounding her reasoning.

I don't feel a lot of hostility, personally. We've debated like this and carried on normal conversations two seconds later - at the end of the day, her telling me I can't follow her logic really doesn't bother me, and so responding in kind isn't something I feel should bother her. But for the sake of your comfort, sure. It's just difficult to have to continually repeat the same point.

No, what I pointed out are things that are necessary in schools, that either exist by law (lunch for instance, though you have choose where you eat and what you do) or because that IS what school is. Like doing work. I'm sorry, I realize people think school work is a waste of time, and certain assignments are entirely, but that's sort of what school is, so getting rid of work won't really do any good. If you personally (not you as in you, just someone in generally) thinks work is a waste of time, then there's not much point of them being in school to begin with.

It doesn't matter what I want to do with my time and whether or not I have anything planned. Having nothing better to do (though I can come up with lots of things) is not reason enough for the pledge to exist in schools. See, that's the thing. No one has yet pointed out why we actually do the pledge. We just do it because.. well.. we've always done it? Just like we've always done DARE and sex-ed pledges where we promise to not do drugs or have sex? I'm cool with the drug and sex education. It's totally important. I'd be cool with maybe some mini-unit on the pledge, its significance, who wrote it, that sorta thing. But the second a school starts influencing your opinion on the country, your religion, sex, drugs, or anything else, that's just wrong. Those are matters to be discussed at home. Whether you want to admit it or not, it does create awkward situations, like "Oh hey dude, why aren't you saying the pledge and wearing the no drugs bracelet and no sex ring?" "Uhh, I dunno dude, because I'm not." "But why?" "Just because." And then they offer you extra credit if you do. I mean, major influencing or what? You still have the choice to opt out, of course, but that doesn't mean it should be there in the first place. TEACH us why the pledge is important, why drugs are bad, why we should wait to have sex. Don't just get us to wear goofy little stickers and stuff, practically forcing us to sign/say pledges, making promises people pretty much aren't going to keep, but they're signing to fit in. If it comes to the point someone has to lie to fit in, it doesn't belong in schools. And if you can't promote the opposite opinion of what is being encourage without getting in trouble for it, it doesn't belong in schools.



I've covered this. If people want to say the pledge, that's fine by me, but they do not need to waste the time of other people by doing it. If they really feel they need to say it, what's so hard about gathering together 60 seconds before the bell rings in the morning, and saying it? Hell, you can even have your little pledging circle announced on the news. Everyone's happy that way, I don't see what the big deal is. No one has to opt out that way, they can either choose to put forth the almost nonexistent extra effort (oh no, I need to be on this side of campus in the morning instead of over there *sob*) or not say the pledge in the morning. And hey, if you can't make it in the morning, there's always during lunch and after school! So many options! So much better than during my science class! ...


Insults from a mod? Nice.

You once again failed to follow simple logic. If a school can openly support an opinion, students should be able to advocate the opposite, hence the "America Sucks" pledge. If the school decides their opinion should be pledged to on a daily basis, holders of the opposite opinion should be entitled to pledge the opposite. If the school cannot meet this demand, then from that we can conclude that the issue is either too controversial to be dealt with in schools, or realize that their opinion is not sensitive enough to the beliefs of others. If this is the conclusion, then the topic should just be removed from schools entirely, and the problem is solved. (By remove I mean having the actual administration explicitly support it. It can still be discussed, just like religion, politics, sex, drugs, but no actual opinions should be given.) Does that make sense to you _this_ time?


Allow me to change 'ignoring' to simply 'not comprehending'. I gave you the benefit of the doubt.


When did I say the "OMG, it is, chill!!!"? The meant to come off as "Omg, chill already, you couldn't be more off the mark that it's starting to annoy me, considering that's what 80% of your rebut of my argument is composed of." This. Is. Not. Based. On. Religion. Can you get that through your head? If you can't, which meh, I can somewhat understand given my history, then maaan, focus on other things. The only references I've made to religion would probably be the "Under God" and the analogy to prayer (I didn't reread. If you want to nitpick and point out other things, whatever. I'm sure they're innocent references as well.)


Lol, whether or not I hate a country is most definitely not a matter of opinion. I'm pretty sure I know far more than you do about myself, what I hate, what I merely put up with, and what I enjoy. You can either choose to believe what I tell you or ignore it. Frankly, whether or not I hate the US at the point doesn't even matter. (I don't hate it, I'm not sure I like it, I just live here.) The point is that the pledge doesn't belong in schools, and the parody pledge was just one of our strategies to express this. See above for why.



Please see above where I point out I wasn't even really talking about theism, just relating comparable things because the pledge and prayer are really alike. If you can follow it, I mean.

I'm not sure, but I assume morale during wartime. We're in a war now, but the state of affairs has changed a lot since the 1950's.



Neither is time wasting an excuse to get rid of something when other things could fall under that category, but we've hashed that one out and come to a stalemate.



..That's really a big negative against the pledge? People asking you questions about it? People ask questions about everything people do and don't do, the pledge being one of them should be a topic for discussion, not something you should avoid. Explain why, have this debate all over again, and consider the both of you more informed on the other's position afterwards. If anything, that argument implies that political discussion between peers should be discouraged, and I know you don't think that.



I don't remember middle school too well, but I do remember a history course and the reasoning behind the pledge involved. Do I remember what it was? Obviously not, otherwise I would have shared not for the sake of argument, but for the sake of letting everyone know what the government/school system's explanation is. I agree with it being discussed at home - see, that's so much more reasonable than 'it wastes my ten seconds' or 'it unfairly assumes I am allied with this country, even though I obviously live in it'. I also never remembered needing a political stance to 'fit in' except for directly after 9/11, but maybe schools have changed?



Announced as in viewed? I hope not, because that's exactly the same, except that it's coming from a television or speaker.



Which part did I insult you in, just so we're clear? I was making a point of imitating you and a couple of your comments, but at a slightly higher point. I never called you an idiot, I responded to the accusation that I can't follow your logic (which, occasionally, I can't - and it isn't simple logic, it's pretty confusing and backwards at times - see: entire issues forum. This is not an insult, it is an opinion.) by pointing out that these were things you had brought up and I was discussing. And here you go again, following 'insults from a mod?' with 'you once again failed to follow simple logic.' You can't really make me feel too guilty about my tone with you by punishing me..with the same tone.



OMG NO I EM CLRLY NOT UNRSTANIN U MAKE IT SIMPLAR.
You tend to change your tone from post to post. You start with one implication, and when it is pointed out, jump to another until your extreme convictions turn to reasonable, softer logic. You might just be clarifying and I might be wrong, absolutely, but it sure would help my slow, less superior brain to understand if you just said that instead of implying that I'm an idiot because you constantly change your arguments. And like I said, I'm really not going to feel bad for being sarcastic with someone using sarcasm. Sorry, just can't find the care.

Oh, and as for my being a mod - I know you feel as though I 'target' you, but how am I using my status at all in this? Oh, I'm not. Your warn level goes up for cursing, not disagreeing with me. I'm debating with you. Do I hold a personal grudge against you? Absolutely not. Do I think a lot of your posts in this forum are misinformed? Definitely. Will I say so? 100%! Have I been wrong once or twice in this thread? Certainly. My opinion on the pledge has nothing to do with these posts. I am poking at your logic. If that's not okay for someone to disagree with or question you, you are once again imitating the thing that you hate.

And here, I'll touch the 'not comprehending' since you couldn't comprehend what I meant. I could compile a list of things I've written that you have ignored or not comprehended, but I don't feel the need to waste my time on it or point it out. I usually repeat myself for several posts and hold my breath until you notice it.



Did you notice the word like in reference to how I interpreted your response? No? It's there. I say it's rooted in religion, you respond 'But it isn't, let me list the ways', I say I still believe it is, this goes on, and you freak out (sorry, like freak out) about how, yes, you dislike religion, you're allowed to. I know you are. I was pointing out that there was a tie. You could have gone, 'yes there is' in the first place, and we would have skipped this. Here, let me try the punctuation thing. I. Know. Your. Primary. Reasoning. Is. Not. Religion. But. I. Am. Aware. It. Is. A. Part. Of. It. Better? Awesome.



..But it is an opinion. It is my opinion. I don't think you ~*~hate~*~ America, I think that you think there are a lot of things wrong with it and have a strong disdain for the government. See? Opinion. I have formed mine, thus making it a matter of opinion.



Well, that clears up whether or not you could follow it. I wasn't referring to that portion, more the one where we whine at each other about how much religion/theism has to do with this. So, yes, I can follow it, but apparently the following wasn't mutual. I could make some more snarky comments here to help match the tone we've achieved, but as you pointed out, I'm a mod. Plus, crazymat made a good point. Did you read that post?

We weren't in war when I was in kindergarten and first grade, and we were doing it then. (Just pointing that out. Not actually arguing.)

QUOTE

Neither is time wasting an excuse to get rid of something when other things could fall under that category, but we've hashed that one out and come to a stalemate.

[color=purple]Isn't it, though? Wouldn't it just make life a lot more productive to remove all the superfluous things and just do with what we need and want? I'm cool with getting rid of other time wasters, but the pledge still looks like a pretty good place to start.


I meant that having the school side with one opinion, and then supporting the students that back it up, is just sorta.. unfair. I know it sounds like a stupid point. Questions like that are cool to answer on an individual basis, but it sort of feels like the school is making it easy to pin-point the kids that disagree (unintentionally, of course), and then those kids get bombarded with a whole bunch of questions about their nonconformity. I'll gladly explain my opinion about pretty much anything to someone who asks, but having like 30 people come up to you and ask you the same thing gets tiresome. (Also sorta goes along with the waste of time thing.) So yeah, debating among peers, awesome. Having the school set the accepted standard for highly controversial issues and expecting the students to back it up = not so cool.


Not so much liberal vs. conservative stuff (but oh man do some people get way too into that.), but whether or not you agree with certain things the school promotes. Honestly, all the anti-drug campaigning is probably the biggest example of that (and hey, it's red ribbon week..) . Personally, I don't care what you do, as long as you don't hurt someone else. If you mess up your body entirely, you have that choice, but meh, you're sort of an idiot for doing so. A lot of people are "Noooo. That stuff is BAD for you. If you do that I'm not talking to you." I wouldn't really care to hang-out with someone like that, but.. it causes problems. And yeah, I realize I'm sorta off topic, just sorta explaining your point. There's also a huge "Obama is awesome" "No, Obama's a stupid socialist and the anti-Christ, and he's going to mess everything up!" epidemic going on right now. Not helped by the Fox News thing.


Announced as in "Attention students, for those interested, <name of whatever they decide to call it> will be meeting at <time> to say the Pledge of Allegiance every morning beginning <date>. Everyone is welcome." and maybe play that for like a week.


since we all know you're the master at these and always win.

(Okay, I reread the thread. Yeah, I see I started it. Sorry..)


As long as we get there..


I don't feel as if you're targeting me. You disagree, naturally, making this fun. Yeah, sorry, no, I seriously did think you started with the whole "following my logic" deal, and I reread to quote you exactly where you did and.. haha.. I started it. >_> So never mind. I was going to say something along the lines of "Well, as a mod, it wouldn't kill you to set a better example" but yeah, never mind.


What? Okay, this time I seriously have no idea what you're talking about.


No, not better. What? Primary reasoning not religion. Got that. How is it still part of that? Can you like quote and bold where you're getting this idea from? Please? I'm lost.

Okay, three things. While replying to this I somehow missed the 3:06 (uh.. 1:06 your time?) post and will read that after this, possibly respond, time allowing.
Two, if this goes on much longer, I'm going to have to drop out. It works now because I have exams and practically no homework, but when real school starts again, I won't have the time. It doesn't help that NaNoWriMo is next month, either.
Three, okay, if you agree (or, I think you do?) that the pledge shouldn't be in schools... Do you want to actually help improve my argument/think up one of your own, so we actually get somewhere instead of internet-fighting each other, taking up a crapton of time and accomplishing nothing?

Yeah, what she said.

*edit* Aww, this forum doesn't do that cool thing anymore where when you post multiple times in a row, it just combines it into one awesome post.

I used the word like in quoting you, I said, you were like _____, as in your response was similar to what I said it was like, but that wasn't your exact response.

Besides that, I don't really have anything else to argue with you on - I think we both know where the other stands, or have formed our own ideas on where and why the other stands there because of their explanations and variations thereof.



If you're asking why we're still talking about it, it's because we've been arguing about why we've been talking about it for several posts. This is what I am trying to explain:

You: Or *at least* remove the "under God". + your other stances on religion.
Me: ;;assumes because of your 'at the very least remove the God part,' theism is a large part of your argument;;
You: ;;lists all non-theism related causes and says this isn't all about theism;;
Me: ..But it's still about religion to you
You: ;;prayer/pledge typo explanation, followed with that it still doesn't belong in school;; Yes, I hate 'under God', but I hate the whole thing too.
Me: ;;still arguing about other crap;; and because of your focus on that 'under God' part, I feel like everything else is thrown in there to say 'see? it isn't JUST about religion', when you stated that at the bare minimum you would accept the pledge as long as under God was taken out.
You: Ignore the religious implications, a Christian agrees with me. Stop talking about religion.

So, it's basically me going 'this is about religion' re: you trying to get at LEAST under God removed, you saying no it isn't, backing it up with non-religious reasons, then adding that it is a lot about religion and religion in schools is bad (yes, I know, but again, I was poking at your reasoning), then telling me to stop talking about religion, then us arguing about why religion is a subject here. You couldn't seem to decide whether or not you wanted to agree that yes, religion was a lot of your argument or that no, your other reasons were just as heavy, so I got frustrated and tried to help you out by going 'this is about religion. we know.'

Uh-huh. Okay. Pretty much through here.

Got anything for my "Three, okay, if you agree (or, I think you do?) that the pledge shouldn't be in schools... Do you want to actually help improve my argument/think up one of your own, so we actually get somewhere instead of internet-fighting each other, taking up a crapton of time and accomplishing nothing?" bit?

Nope. Like I said, I don't necessarily think the pledge should be in schools, but I have the same stance I always have - I don't care. Saying 'under God' did nothing to or for my religious choices in life, I feel about the state of affairs in this country the same as I would have had I said your pledge, and 90% of the time, I was tired, so I enjoyed the extra ten seconds sitting and spacing out thanks to my choice to refuse. Sorry.

And personally, I do feel we've accomplished something. At least you have. You have to at least be a little stronger and clearer in your convictions now that you've had them nit-picked to death. You're welcome~

Lmao. Thanks. Now I can just tactfully reword everything, maybe give it some more thought, start a petition, get a bunch of people to sign off on on, and present it to the administration. Luckily for me, they don't know my views on religion, and certainly not to the extent that the people that have been reading the issues forum on here do, so that may give me the upper hand.

Oh, and you have made me realize something. I won't accept just the "under God" removed anymore.

Just a sidenote: Izzy, do 30 people really come up and ask you why you aren't saying the pledge? I stopped saying it after a while, and I don't think anybody really questioned me. And if people do... so what? agreements and disagreements exist in school all the time, especially on a political basis. If you really don't want to say the pledge that badly, then don't say it. I mean, you don't rein in your religious criticism just because other people criticize you for it and ask you about it, right? I would think that wouldn't be different.

About 8-10 have asked me why I don't say the pledge, one of them going full blown "Hey, show some respect for your country. This is AMERICA, you know." Seriously though, like 30 people today asked me why I wasn't wearing the "I pledge to be drug free." bracelet that we got during first period. (Red Ribbon Week ftl.) I told them I didn't agree with it. They asked me if I was on drugs. I said no, I just didn't agree with it. They didn't seem able to understand how someone not on drugs could think that. "So.. you don't agree with it because you're taking drugs?" "No, dude, I just don't agree with it because I people should have the choice to do what they want." "Oh, so you want to take drugs?" "No, eugh, forget it." "(Somewhat jokingly) Druggie." "Eugh."

Haha, just remembered first period, actually. French teacher passed them out. Noticed some people didn't put them on. "You guys know you're supposed to wear those right?" And since I'm in front of him: "On your wrist. It's a bracelet." Umm.. Yeah. "So put it on." Umm. I think it looks prettier decorating my back pack... So I tried putting it on my friend, who already had one on. Apparently it's 'gay' to wear two? But yeah.

O/T:
I'm going to let my new icon talk for me.

/O/T

....Wait... at me or the people I go to school with..?

A little from column A, a little from column B...

Woah... I should pay more attention to the boards, daily.
This reminds me a little of in primary school when we prayed in assembly. I never used to join in but instead sat the quietly and twiddled my thumbs. I don't have much to say about the pledge, as it seems weird to me anyway but...
Izzy, it is nice to see that you're angry about stuff enough to want to change things. So many people sit there in their day to day lives, complaining about stuff without feeling that either they can change it or even wanting to expend the effort to do so. Unfortunately, I don't think you have enough clout behind you, especially thanks to the WASP history of America, but you may be able to go some way to change how things work in your school if you work hard and do it in a mature and sensible way. Good luck!

Thanks.

Sometimes I like to think of Jesus as the guy who invented high-fives.

Anyone up for one final nitpick? Typed this up today while waiting for some friends to show up..

As a student, I have been led to believe that schools are institutions that exist to instill education and good moral conduct into its students, without swaying or impacting the political or religious affiliations of those in attendance. While the schools I have gone to in my life, including <name of my current school>, have done an excellent job of maintaining a neutral atmosphere in regards to politics, it has come to my attention that some students are much less than satisfied with how the Pledge of Allegiance is administered. This has nothing to do with anti-American, anti-government, anti-justice-for-all, etc. feelings. Simply, because schools are meant to stay impartial on the matters that can influence the opinions of its students, we feel by there being a Pledge of Allegiance with mandatory presence/standing, the views of the government (as this a district problem, not merely one from our school) are being unfairly forced upon us. Certain aspects of one's life, such as what one believes in and where one's loyalties lie, should be determined within the household and with one's parents, not taught and practiced within schools. By all means, TEACH the pledge, its meaning, and its importance to American history/culture/society, but to demand students actively participate (even respectfully declining, in essence, is still participation, just by presence) is in all respects, unconstitutional. Again, it is not the actual content of the pledge we have problems with, it's the fact that the school openly chooses one side, sort of like the school defining itself as liberal or conservative, and before children even begin to comprehend the meaning of the pledge, they've been saying it for years. It's unfair, unjustified, indoctrination. With all due respect, the pledge is inappropriate in schools in the same sense that instructional time set aside for coordinated group prayer is. While perfectly acceptable at home or in extracurricular student organizations, it has been deemed unsuitable for students to be preached to by their instructors because of our multi-cultural environment and varying degrees of religiousness. We are open to alternatives for the pledge. For example, rather than setting class time aside for it, students who wish to take the pledge can, for the twenty seconds it takes to say it, meet up before school much the same way the faith-based student group we have meets and prays in the mornings. By doing so, everyone is happy, and those that wish to opt out no longer have to feel awkward about it because it will no longer be a classroom issue. I trust you will take our issue into consideration and make the right choice, which I caution you is not always the popular one.

Kind regards,
Izzy <last name>

Below you will find attached a list of students who share my concern.

<list of people>

I can see traces of our argument in it, and I'm glad it helped you clarify what you mean more.