Anyone see it?

This is one for the UK folks, I'm not too sure if it was aired in America. Basically, this British reporter/media type guy Louis Thereux (sp?) films these documentaries on different things, for instance gang wars, pornography, etc.

Anyway, I've just finished watching one where he lives by and follows a family of modern day Nazis in California for a week or so, and by God the racial hate they have is beyond words. What makes it worse is they are teaching this race hate to their children. The show features two female twins, aged eleven, who are raised as Nazis. They sing songs on stage at Nazi rallies, about race hate and black people. Yet when questioned, they don't have much of a clue what it's all about. They aren't allowed nintendo products, but instead play a computer game called 'Ethnic Cleansing'. Yeah that's what I thought. Their parents will disown them if they ever bring home a black boyfriend.

Feel free to rage about modern society. I just thought this would be interesting after seeing most of this forum was the kind of 'libertarian left' type person. Do you think they have the right to believe this? To follow the Nazi beliefs? To teach them to their children?

Noooo
I really wanted to watch that but I always forget about tv when I'm on the computer...
*stabs the world*

Yeah I saw it, and while I advocate people being into the belief system of their choice, this made me sick to the stomach. I think the thing that got me the most was the mothe, April, indoctrinating her two 11 year old girls to white pride. It was disgusting, making them sing at skinhead rallies, and giving them that "ethnic cleansing" game to play. I wouldnt have wanted to be Louis at that Skip guys house tho, you could feel the hatred burning off of him when he sussed that Louis was Jewish...
Makes me scared that lunatics like that can exist in the 21st century. And I wanna kill them but that would bring me down to their level, and make me as bad as them...

Or the hypocrasy of them all. Let's not forget that. Tom (main Nazi guy) was 'friends' with one of his customers, one of mixed race. Yet when he went to rallies, he was shouting "nigger nigger nigger, out out out!". And thought that was perfectly acceptable.

What makes me sad is thinking that there are probably a lot more people out there who think this, but we don't know it because they aren't on national TV.

Yeah, the hypocrisy was unbelievable. I was just thinking about what the mother, April, said about her twins. She said "What red blooded American male isn't gonna be turned on by two sixteen year old twins singing about white pride??" Now these twins are only 11 years old at the moment, and to be thinking of how she can use their immenent sexuality to bring men to the "cause" is abhorrent. The woman is not fit to be a mother. It's a complete loss of innocence to those kids....

Hmm... I didn't see it, but it from what you've said, it reminds me a bit about a book by Jon Ronson, another freelance journalist (also Jewish as it happens), called THEM: Adventures with Extremists. He basically spends a bit of time with some Islamic Fundamentalists, Neo Nazis, (new) KKK, Ian Paisley, David Icke, and a load of other "extremists", all with the idea that the world is essentially ruled and manipulated by a tiny elite.

Anyway, back on topic. This is a pretty grey area. I'm pretty much Voltaireian ("I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.") as far as this is concerned so far as I don't mind them believing what they do, as long as they don't use it to justify acts of violence or general hate crimes.

Although I think they should be allowed to make their views heard (provided they're civil about it, if possible) I don't think they should be allowed to indoctrinate their children with their racism. Adults are (supposedly) able to tell what is socially acceptable, and thus would typically react to neo-nazi preaching with disgust. Children on the other hand, will accept whatever programming they are given, especially from their parents, without question. Allowing Neo-Nazis to brainwash their kids into the same mindset as themselves is not acceptable in my opinion.

The problem is, allowing public freedom of speech but at the same time protecting the young and naive. I'd rather infringe these racists right to freedom of speech instead of allowing another generation of intollerance.

I saw parts of it. Did anyone see the end where April has this lovely rant about non-whites. I couldn't help smiling at that. It was...something. I have to say, that by her standards, she wasn't indoctrinating them but bringing them up in the way that she thinks is right. Which you can't exactly shoot her for, but she does take it to an extreme level. They don't go to school, their friends don't know about the rallies etc they'd attend. And yes, the children are clueless, following whatever April says, which is something many children do. However she is all that they are subject to. I doubt if they've even seen a coloured person close up, watch television where there are non-whites present etc etc.

And the game ethnic cleansing? I missed that part. Is it basically this white supremo going around killing all sorts?

I found the lawyer funny. He so disagreed with what his client preached, but couldn't/didn't want to say it out right and so he kept on skipping around the subject.

And yes Tom was incredibly hypocritical. Its great listening to them have to explain why they believe in white supremacy, considering that they are unable to. You can't get beyond, "Cause I don't like them". They can't explain why, as there really is no explanation.

Aysha xxx

Yes, I watched the show in question. I kept shouting ``YOU F*****G SCUM! *EDIT* and then I realised, as long as they dont act on there opinions, then they wont get shot in the face by me. *EDIT*ing nazi scum. How the hell can you justify being a nazi? lol I mean once a man walked up to me in a pub and said `` yeah, man, id buy you a pint if you kill a bunch of jews for me`` he was not pissed... where the hell do these people come from? well my theory is, theres people in his world that are brought up to believe in these things, and encouraging children to conform to society and not be completely individual is potentially very evil indeed. wait! those nazis werent conforming to society! ok, so it takes a very pursuasive man to hipnotise others. wow! a new Hitler! I should go and hunt down those *EDIT* scum and take them out!


*EDIT* Good points well made there, but in future can you lose some of the swearing please? EDITing moderators...

ok, to summarise lol (I feel very strongly about this) they are either very stupid, or the theory that true evil exists is true. I mean, c`mon! there are people out there who actually enjoy killing people and would do it again to anybody! serial killers!

True,i also agreed that these self-proclaimed "Nazis" were a tad extreme,and a lot of the racial jibes hurt,but i don't think we have the authority to sit here and slate their well,"religion".to those who are strong believers in one thing,everything else seems stupid:some satanists think christians are stupid,some christians don't believe in hinduism,some hindus don't believe in muslims,some muslims dont believe in buddhists.in summary,stupidity is in the eye of the beholder.they want to believe in it,let em get on with it,i say.







*i am soooooo going to get beaten up for this.................*

nope you're going to get hugges *hugs loads*

Nazism and other forms of Racehate should not be equated to religion of any kind.

They are a quasi-political fully racsist system of thought.

There are many examples of thought systems that are banned and acted against (eg. paedophiles such as NAMBLA being officially censored).

I feel that democracy which cherishes freedoms and liberties, such as free speech, needs to protect itself against systems which seek to destroy democracy.

It is a trade off - full and unfettered freedom vs the need to protect society...

We are not allowed to spread racehate in the UK (which is therefore limiting our freedom of speech) as it infringes other's freedom not to be racially harrassed / attacked or even killed.

Which is more important? The right for some gang of braindead fascist rascists who want to destroy our free society to encourage violence and hatred - OR - The right for all of us to live without fear of persecution along racial / religious / ethnic / gender or cultural lines.

I didn't see the show, maybe 'cause I'm in the US of A (did it actually air here? ) But in response to Overfriendly_Kitten's post... Exactly what I was thinking... At what point does their demonstrating etc. harm others? When do we draw the line? Sure, we've given everyone the right to free speech (in a democracy of course) but if their demonstrating brings harm to others and people are killed / beated / hurt on behalf of their views, isn't that wrong? I'm certainly one free speech, heck, say whatever you want, but when it causes harm to other people... That's just not right; at least to me. I'd also be curious to know, if anyone that this race-hate applies to feels afraid of the concept of another Hitler etc. or what their views are. Yar. *floo poof*

I am very sorry for using such fowl language mein furer.
-finished-

MERDE! MERDE! MERDE!

Hey, I know what that means!!!!!!!!!

ah yes, but in France it isn't a strong word to say. More on the 'crap' line of things than the other meaning

*hugs for miss spunk (by the way,LOVE the avatar-GO ARAGORN!*

and i didn't understand what over-friendly kitten wrote.it didn't really make sense to me,but from what i understood,it sounded a bit narrow-minded.


*sorry!*

*going slightly off topic here* if your french teacher is actually french,ask them what is french for "va va voom" lol.only the english people will get this one (hopefully) and it will piss the teacher off soooooo bad!lol.


*back to normality for now*

French is the most attractive language in the world in my opinion... girls with french accents get the hell away from me... I have a johnson! oh damn ... ok i`ll try again. Femme le bush le tete de merde. lol I have done so many french lessons and payed no attension. ...

You shouldn't be the one to appologise...

I should be more clear in what I'm saying. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough for you to understand.

Perhaps you understood Sammi - who said the same kind of thing (but much more clearly)?

Nazism states that democracy is bad, that non Aryans (non whites) are evil, and that some "races" should be killed completely (eg - the Jews).

Hitler ended democracy in Germany. Nazi policy is that there should be one ruler only and no democratic freedom. No freedom of speech. No freedom to worship as you choose. No freedom to vote.

I believe in democracy - and that our freedom to vote for our leaders is more important than the Nazis right to undermine and destroy democracy.

I think that people should be free to live. Everyone, even If they are not white - or not Christian - they should be free to live in peace.

I think that this right to live peacefully is more important than the Nazi persons right to attack Jews, or blacks. I don't think Nazis should be allowed to spread the hate and cause people to fight non whites.

You could say that my view towards Nazis is narrow minded... but that's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

I hope I have made my position clearer.

Unlike hating a race, hating a belief system is entirely rational. Race is natural, not created by man, and unchosen. It is, therefore, irrational to hate it or its members. Belief systems are constructed by man, entered into voluntarily and promoting a partial viewpoint.
Moreover, we should not 'let them get on with it'. Should we let genocidal regimes 'get on with it'? Should we let Islamic terrorists 'get on with it'? Should we let Christian anti-abortionist murderers 'get on with it'? Not all belief systems are benign. Many harm society. One such is racial hatred. Racial hatred needs to be stamped out, and freedom of speech be damned. I'll take racial minorities (including whites in the countries where they are racial minorities) not being oppressed and murdered over freedom of speech any day, thanks.

*hugs back* Damn I could have DIED when Aragorn jumps out of the boat in ROTK! BUt hey, can I ask (sorry its spam) is your avatar thing derived from a blockbuster's advert?

I asked my French teacher the va va voom thing - I also timed it COMPLETELY wrong. *sigh* Dear Mr Smeaton. He used to give us dodgy smiles while pulling up his trousers... but I liked him all the same. Sean, STOP WINKING AT HIM.

We had a debate earlier in school, about whether extremist parties should be banned. The examples used where BNP and what not. I thought that this action itself was extreme and would just be forcing the whole movement underground - which is never good. This reminds me of that. You can't deny a person's beliefs. The most you can do is to show them how wrong and backward they are. There will be a small fistful of people that will think like that, but you have to hope that in today's society, this number will get smaller with passing generations as people are made more aware.

Aysha xxx

To be honest I never really thought about it before but I've been datinga mixed-race guy for four months now and the abuse we get when together is unbelievable. At a metal night at our local one night a bunch of Neo-Nazis turned up, everything was fine for a while and everyone was moshing together until a few of them got around him in the pit and one guy just hauled off and punched him full in the face for no reason, he didn't even say anything, just decked him and walked off. Another of his so-called friends has this wonderful habit of calling him at two in the morning and yelling abuse down the phone to him in german. The next day he acts like nothing happened but constantly refers to him as "Paki Rab" when he's not around. Grr...argh...

On the other hand we get just as much abuse from the Asian community in our area who hate him because he's only half Indian and was brought up in a white culture and me because I'm white and dating an Asian guy. It makes no sense and everyone's as bad as the rest.

I think we're fortunate in that we all seem to be pretty normal, generally accepting people but sometimes I wish I had the chance to talk to one of these morons properly and find out what it is that makes them hate others so much. I can only figure it has something to do with their own innate inadequacies and closemindedness that leads them to be so unable to accept those that look a little different from them.

Didn't see it as i live in Australia.

Well, the right to hold beliefs cannot be a pick and mix affair, as for the children, well they have the right to bring their children up however they want to as longas they don't harm them. I don't condone racial hate, when I read that post I was sick to my stomach. But it's their right, and I feel rights are by far more important than anything else.

Fair enough Juiceisgood, it's quite clear that we were all sickened by what has been described - and I agree that changing what people think is a very dangerous path to take - but what happens when it's a trade off between rights... and I ask this as a question, not as a statement on anyone's beliefs.

Who's right is more important?

The right of the Nazi to kill or attack a person he doesn't like (eg - a Jew) OR the right for the Jew to live...
(fairly straightforward question - with a fairly straightforward answer - The right to life is far more important. If the question is about destroying personal property, such as smashing in shop or house windows or desecrating cemeteries - we should have police protection for our belongings as well, correct? There are a great many Racists who believe very strongly that they must kill people such as non-whites, jews or even socialists.)

The right of the Nazi to incite people to attack Jews OR the right of the Jewish community to live without fear of harm?
(This is where it gets tricky - what is more important? Full freedom of speech - where anyone can say absolutely anything? Or a system where you can say what you like so long as it doesn't cause unnecessary harm, where we are limited in what we can actually say? - What about the local leader of the KKK who incites his followers to burn down a church in Louisiana when there are still men, women and children inside... should he escape punishment because his right to free speech is sacred? There are racisits who actively go out looking to spread their good word and get others to attack people... they believe that this is their calling in life.)

and on a similar note: The right of the Nazi to scream verbal abuse at someone OR the right for people to go about their daily lives without being verbally abused.
(How about the Protestant extremist who, with his mates from the pub, stands by the gates of a Catholic girl's primary school and scream anti-catholic abuse at girls as young as 4 years old, the abuse is pure race hate and includes threats to kill... should they be allowed to stand there and do this to young girls, or should they be arrested? These people have argued that all they are doing is talking, and that it is their God-given right to do so... they believe in what they are saying, so are their rights more important than anything else?)
_____________

It is very easy to hide behind the virtuous principal of freedom

freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of association... these are all great things. I certainly enjoy being able to type this very post here on the matazone forum, I'm not going to get shot for accessing the internet and typing what I believe in (whereas I could be shot in some repressive regimes). So I truely enjoy my freedom of speech... but not at any cost.

I am willing to sacrifice some of my freedom in order to live in a safe society. A society where I know that it is illegal for someone to murder me. Where it is illegal for someone to spread lies about me. Where it is illegal for someone to incite others to harm me.

I am free from harm, because society has taken away some of my freedoms. I am NOT free to kill people (unless it is in self-defence), I am NOT free to spread lies about people (we have defamation and slander laws) and I am NOT free to incite others to harm someone.

And as a final point - this isn't just about race / religious intollerance. Race hate isn't the only form of hate - hatred of women, or men, hatred of someone's sexuality, or even their disability are all forms of hate. Personally I feel the right to live freely should apply to everyone, and this right should override certain other rights every once in a while.

ooooooohh i didn't think that film was too good.NUMB ARSE!

*sniff sniff* i smell SPAM

Personally I think race hate begets race hate, certainly in areas of Sheffield and Birmingham. It's such a shame that some people (of varied races) go around EXPECTING race abuse from a different race and try to get the first blow in. It doesn't make them look good and does nothing for promoting multicultural/racial relations!

It doesn't just stop at race either. Social classes come into it too. I am the first to admit that I used to be a terrible snob! I believed that people who lived on council estates were scummy. The reason for this was because when I was growing up in Essex in a lovely "middle class conservative" neighbourhood we had a council estate built next to us. Myself and my brother (not to mention several people at school) were abused by one particular family and this gave me such a jaded view of "council tenants". I was influenced at an early and impressionable age and no one ever corrected me until I moved away from home and had my own separate experiences. I actually own a flat right in the middle of a council estate in Sheffield and my neighbours really couldn't be a nicer, sweeter bunch of people.

Just goes to show that your experiences when you are younger will shape you as you grow. Luckily though you can learn differently I hope those twins come to realise that and don't make other peoples lives a misery by copying their parents

Hope that makes sense?!?

u know,i've never seen racism in public life.on tv and stuff yes,but never in front of my face.maybe because i don't come from the ghetto? lol.but i really haven't,and never wish to.