I have petitioned the following "Proposals to tackle anti-social behaviour" on the Scottish Parliament Website, e-petitions. The website for e-petition signatures; discussions; comments and information. I would be grateful if you could sign the petition.
LINK:
http://itc.napier.ac.uk/e-petition-scot/vi....asp?TopicID=19

Dude, someone signed it "F**k Off This Is Shit, England", without the censoring.

I don't want to, the proposals constitute serious violations of existing privacy laws world wide. Scoland may have anti-social behaviour problems but draconian laws and increased surveilance is not the answer, neither is the establishment of a seperate police force to enforce one citizen's idea of how people should behave. Sure, I am well aware of the violence in some areas of Scotland, but addressing the issues by the root rather than buffering them over with a zero tolerance attitude is the only way to prevent your concerns from occuring.

My apologies.

sorry, i don't agree with the petition. the only thing on there i agree with is 'the creation of a database of all telephone calls to the police' only because there SHOULD be a log kept of who calls the police and for what. but that's not enough to make me sign a petition.

Thus spoke Z, yes I know, but because of the Easter break and Parliament shut down till the 18th I don't know when the moderators there are back to work.

Juiceisgood, I can walk out of my house and a security camera sees me walking up the path, on the main street I am being watched by a police camera, as I go into the shop there are cameras in there also. So where is the existing privacy laws? When you say "ones citizens idea" yes I agree my proposals for the petition which has now been signed by over 100 "citizens".
New legislation coming in to combat this problem is tagging children between 12-16 years old; ASBO's, maximum prison sentence of 5 years if violated; dispersal of groups of 2 or more; designated areas for groups to hang around....etc
Community Wardens patrolling the streets in liason with the Police.

This new legisation will be law within the next few weeks, put through by Scottish Parliament MSP's who represent 20 million citizens.

Brilliant, you've come a long way, from liberal democracy to facist police state... well done!

I wonder if my local KKK lodge has more than 100 members...


Why don't we install some CCTV cameras in your bedroom, get some good shots of you sleeping? How about with your girl/boy friend? I like it, hell we could make millions selling citizens' souls on E-bay! Sounds like a plan!


My point? Your hundred petitioners constitues a few bored internet users who did as you said without reading/thinking about your petition, and if Scotland really does pass these laws, Iggy Pop was right, Scatlin takes drugs in psychic defence.

Not to mention your rather tasteless tactic of sigining up on random forums to post your link... I feel your petition is invalid for this and the above reasons. I also don't think that a parliment that represents 20 million will listen to 100 people... and if they do, I'm taking Scotland off my holiday destination list.

Could someone pleas explain to me how the scottish parliament has any say at all in how people associate or choose not to with others?

I really don't think I'm getting this. There has to be something I'm missing. Security cameras and support groups to make quiet people make friends? I'm honestly perplezed, someone please tell me this is not what I think it is, I really hope it isn't what I think it is.

I have no problem with CCTV on the streets. I really don't understand how people have a problem with it. Newsflash: when you walk down the street, PEOPLE CAN SEE YOU. If you're doing something you don't want people to see, why the hell are you doing it on the street? Much as I detest the phrase, this is one instance in which innocent people have nothing to fear from the law.

Here, Max, lemme help.

an·ti·so·cial
adj.

1. Shunning the society of others; not sociable.
2. Hostile to or disruptive of the established social order; marked by or engaging in behavior that violates accepted mores: gangs engaging in vandalism and other antisocial behavior.
3. Antagonistic toward or disrespectful of others; rude.

I disagree... it doesn't prevent street violence and it makes it easier for governments to track people's movements, and that does make it an invasion of privacy. It already happens, and yes it can be done without camera monitoring, but CCTV makes it infinitely easier.

People don't have to be breaking the law for them to want protection of privacy, also most of the petition is pretty blatently authoritarian, including a new police force to enforce "anti-social behavior", that's a pretty broad term there Sean. You may be more trusting of governments than me but they still break their own laws, every day. The police in the particular trouble spots in Scotland can be just as bad as the people they bring in, and with all these new anti-terror laws I really don't like where this is going.

When did I use that term, exactly? I wasn't endorsing the petition as a whole, I agree with you broadly on the conclusion you come to it (though perhaps not in such strong terms), I was just defending the use of CCTV cameras.

And sometimes the government needs to track people's movements, you know. Much as you may not like to admit it, terrorism is real. I personally will feel a lot better knowing the government can track the movements of people it thinks are terrorists. What I wouldn't like is knowing that the tower block over there might not have been blown up, killing hundreds, but some people didn't want the government to know about what they were doing in public anyway.

Perhaps we shouldn't be funding our enemies then? Or antagonising them needlessly. How easily could this technology be abused? It's undermining the very basis of our countries, that makes a facist tyrranny too difficult to be worthwhile. Well, perhaps not everywhere, but it's these protections of privacy that give you your freedoms, by breaking them you make a country like Scotland (and other western countries like it) no different from the situations in China and much of the rest of Asia, and that's not a social situation that any westerner can argue for, not with our currently high levels of liberty.

And I was just adding more to the discussion, I thought up more stuff while you were posting and I couldn't help but throw it in.

CCTV is useful and dangerous, I just think it's way too dangerous to be worthwhile.

So police shouldn't be armed? That could be abused. Registers shouldn't be kept of citizens? That can also be abused. Passport controls at borders? Just begging to be abused. Anything can be abused, but I for one don't care if some civil servant knows which pub I frequent. So? Much good may it do him.

*sniggers*

sorry, but....a seperate police force? for anti-social behaviour?! oh yes, thats an excellent waste...i mean use....no wait, i'll stick with waste... of goverment fund, really top notch, i hope someone knocks over your drink in the pub and kicks you in the shins for being a grade-a dippy twat



maybe you should grow a backbone?

But does anti-social necessitate violence? The term antisocial must have thrown me off. I'm anti-social, and I'm not violent(rude yes, but not violent ). And I am willing to bet that most anti-social people aren't violent. So paulardros, the name sucks.

I don't know commie, a police man can shoot someone, but he's going to have to take the rap for it in a court just like anyone else. CCTV's abuse goes far beyond that, and it goes beyone what bar you frequent. Governments are in a unique position to take as much control as they want... they isn't much actually preventing them. But the public outrage of governments breaking their own laws when they do... it's enough to keep them in check. Change the laws, and you open a pandorah's box.

It's the scope of the abuse that is dangerous.


Just for the record, I'm not having a go I just don't really agree.

"A few bored internet users" juiceisgood, have you actually looked at the names and organisations that have signed? How patronising!
Do you think I haven't had to debate this issue several times?
Do you think that the majority of people in my country should not be allowed to live in peace without constant abuse; harrassment; intimidation; Women and elderly do not go out after dark due to anxiety and fear. Do you actually know what the situation is like in the whole of the UK. Do you base your assumptions through the holiday brochures.
Don't underestimate what our people suffer through this issue, daily; weekly; monthly; yearly. I have talked to most community groups and individuals in this country, and I object to your flippancy with regard to what decent, hard working individuals have to put up with and no justice is to be found. With regard to the policies coming through they don't go far enough.

Sir Psycho sexy, There are community wardens, as we speak, being employed in communities around Scotland, and if you talk about waste of money, how many billions for Iraq? Calling me "twat" what an intelligent person you are.
Are you sure it's not past your bedtime?

Yeah the proper term does, but that would mean youre not anti social.. just a bit unsociable.. if that makes any sense. (I'm too tired )

Everybody keep a grip on your tempers and hold off the insults, please.

Juiceisgood, one question, Do you agree that it is a good thing that CCTV; video cameras; etc etc are there when it is recording beatings by police on people; Helps to catch people who have beat and robbed old ladies; Caught a rapist on camera: Stopped a paedophile from kidnapping children; ............................etc etc, or do you think the people doing these things should have thier liberties respected, in this day and age you can't have it both ways.

I agree commie******, there is no need for insults, it's onlt a debate, and everybody should respect each other and not presume issues are so straight forward.

Crazymat, the words "anti social behaviour" is in the main title of Scotlands policies and new legislation. So blame our government, not me.

ahh...but community wardens has entirely different connotations than a seperate branch of the police (all evidence of which seems to have dissapeared entirely from the petition, hmm....odd *edit: oh wait, misread it*)

oh and the subtle dig at the possibilty that i am too young to have anything of value to say is slightly misguided (seeing as my birth date is easily available, how old are you by the way?). I don't think I actually supported the action in Iraq, I certainly didn't bring it up in this thread so I don't know where that came from exactly, and finally, I didn't feel this thread warrented a grown up responce.

I have to say that I'm largely with Juice on this one. Since we've had the widespread introduction of CCTV, judicial statistics have shown that, largely, the increased surveillance of the general populace has done nothing to combat violent crime. The evil lawbreakers who are picked up by such policies are almost always the poor sods who have realised they need a slash after the pubs have closed, and find a quiet alley.

The scumbags who the proposed legislation targets are people who are almost invariably known to the police beforehand, but haven't yet had anything concrete pinned on them. The fact of the matter is that increased automatic surveillance does catch peoplewho are breaking the law, but only really affects those who have been a bit silly. The people it is allegedly protecting us from are largely untouchable unfortunately.

The current 'Big Brother' ideal (in practice) actually ends up punishing the average citizen who sometimes does something silly, but leaves the actual menaces to society completely alone.

paulardros stop multi-posting.How much has england invested in this war? Are you aware SPS is not american? What does one have to do with the other?

You also make it sound like scotland is a hellhole of unchecked violence. Could this be an exaggeration? I may live across the pond, but I don't think scotland is serbia.

Actually, Scotland is (in some parts) a hellhole of unchecked violence. There are areas where the most deranged lunatics would fear to tread.

Yep, I know it's bad there, I think the situation is terrible, I also know that CCTV doesn't prevetn crime, there's no reason to have it. Fix up your economy, get people out of the dole and into jobs, fix up your public services and revolutionise your police force and get rid of the corruption. I base my arguements on an intimate understadning of these sorts of places worldwide, do you think that Scotland is the only place that has bad areas?

Also, try not to triple post paulardros, one is enough for all your comments... maybe two... but three is just taking up room on the page if you ask me.

Anyway, do you really think that debating this a few times is enough research and understanding on the subject to pass all these laws? The real problems need to be addressed paulardros, you can't just try to fix them by throwing everyone in jail.

Sir Psycho sexy, I was relating to you calling me **** as I thought it quite childish, therefore your age.

Sir Maxelpoppel, the relation to Iraq was the cost of the war by UK not "England". Scotland is part of the UK because you, under a different name, brought it up, and I am responding. Also your reference to "Serbia" in the newspapers over here in Scotland residents of certain areas have described their own area as Serbia. This can be verified if you check archives of "The Ediburgh Evening Times" which is the Capital of Scotland.
I am not multi-posting, I am answering individual comments, what's wrong with that?

Juiceisgood, there has been consultation over here about these new laws coming into force, and I was part of that, but in mine, and others opinion, it doesn't go far enough. You talk about peoples' liberties, then tell me not to "multiple post" freedom of speech is important so please don't tell me to shorten my responses, isn't that oppressive?
I agree, there is problems all over the world, not just Scotland, but I live and was born in Scotland, I am Scottish and I am petitioning my government on something where there is a serious problem, what's so wrong in that?

Mr Fuzzy, you are correct, there are parts, not all, of Scotland that are quite bad. To qoute our Communities Minister "Anti-social behaviour is a plague in Scotland"

I am quite certain that Sir Maxerpopple does not post under multiple accounts on this forum.
And as for multiple posting, it is usual to post all of one's responses in a single post - this is what he is referring to.

Um, I'm not really getting this... does this guy actually want to make anti-social behaviour illegal?

...

Are we working on different definitions of anti-social, here?

Edit: Ah, I just read Missy's post. So are we talking about gangs, gang violence, and general destruction of public property, or what?

Four in a row, good job, keep it up.

And who may I ask did you think my doppleganger was?

Sir Maxerpopple, my sincere apologies, it was late in the night when I posted and I made a mistake, sorry.

Haha, I was wondering this too.

Like, they're gonna have police out to make sure that you're always with your friends having fun. *giggles*

Yeah, as I said, it's behavioural crime.... violence, drug use, loitering etc all fall under "anti-social" behaviour... you will notice that all these proposals are aimed at the youth culture.

The formation of a new police force to police the problems that law enforcement as a whole as completely failed to address is simply throwing rocks into a bottomless pit. As I've said, put the money into the roots of the problem and you'll have safer streets.... rather than street fighting... which is what will happen if the Scotish government antagonises the youth, who are already precariously close to all out warfare with the police in some areas. I agree, the problem is getting out of hand, but these kids are violent for a reason, although it may not be concious, growing up in the housing schemes in Scotland is a rough place, with massive levels of unemployment... you need to make more desireable jobs and intergrate the youth of Scotland into the rest of the country, rather than starting a generation war... and I mean that in the most literal sense. The more you alienate the youth the further you push them into violent reprisal... the more drug dealing is the only way to earn a living... the more that violent football games are the only form of release, the more corrupt police beat kids into pulp, the more the youth will fight back. What are you going to do? Put a police man for every schemie? They are the untouchables in Scotland, and the more you oppress them the more they'll fight back. And they are right to, because there's nothing for the youth in Scotland, not in the bad parts, they're doomed to spend their entire lives living in housing commision flats, signing on for the dole every week... They are your youth, and your future, bring up a generation of delinquents and you can't cry about it when things turn violent. Give these kids jobs and good houses, good public transport, good social welfare, good schools... give them a future, and they will stop railing against you.

paulardros, You are welcome to post in as wordy a manner as you like, but triple posting is breaking the rules, not my rules, Mata's rules. Sure, it's not my place to tell you to stop, but I'm doing you a favour and telling you before a mod does. If you don't want to follow the rules, don't, but this discussion won't last very long before someone locks the thread or worse, bans you.

I talk about liberties because they are the most important thing we have, by destroying them, for what ever reason, we take yet another step towards a police state, where you wouldn't have the right to discuss your opinions with us, where places like this would not exist. As I have said, there are better, more perminant and more beneficial ways to solve the problems you are concerned about. Might is not always right, and ultimately it is the fault is yours, and others like you who seek to erode the liberties of the people, that is why you have violence in the streets. The government has made the problem and now they are going to solve it in the most brutal way available to them, I simply say no.

I have discussed this with paulardros, he was not aware he was breaking a rule. Everybody makes mistakes when they're new, no need to jump on somebody.

It's cool, I missed his post, was replying to his previous one. Was just a bit miffed that liberties on internet forums and liberties in real life were being compared.

Juiceisgood, I agree with what you say, but for the last 20 years this has been the same ideas put forward by politicisans; social workers ....etc, and it does not happen, nothing changes sometimes you have to walk the walk not just talk the talk. I agree with the New York Police representative who is advising our Police Force in the UK, who reduced crime in New York by 60%. I quote what he said; "treat a crime as a crime, not a social issue" That has been the problem here for the last 20 years and has contributed to the decline of communities ever since.

The crimes are social issues man, what else are they? They are issues of the social type, and thus should be treated that way. Also, politicians haven't been attempting this sort of thing, unemployment is as high as ever, your social welfare sucks, kids are still living in flats with broken windows and barely enough food to eat. Plainly, until you fix the problem, the symptoms are not going to go away. You are welcome to ignore the real issues, but don't expect a resolution, because you're just going to get the same deal.

Scotland can ignore its real problems as long as you like, but when you finally decide to face up to them, you may not have much of a country left to fix up.

Juiceisgood, I am not talking about the causes of crime, you could debate that till the cows come home, poverty and social class will never change, it has been with us for hundreds, thosands of years. I am talking about crime itself, the dictionary describes the meaning as; An act punishable by law, grave offence, shameful act, charge or convict of offence, crime concerned with the punishment of offenders.
Simple really. Of course liberalists want yto talk about the cause, we all know them, but it will never change, and most of the time it's a good excuse for committing a crime, tough!

Fantastic paulardros, indeed, we should just throw every person under 18 in Scotland into prison.

Actually social class often does change, there have been successful revolutions throughout history, as well as successful economic re-building (The Depression etc)... If you don't want to help htem, then you deserve to be unable to walk around the streets at night. If you are so willing to accept that the problem is unchangable, you'd better get used to the unpleasantries that come with it. What you are saying, in affect, is that these people are unsavable and therefore we should make life so hard on them that they all end up in prision, where they learn how to be even more violent, even more unpleasant to your eyes. It's a vicious cycle paulardros, either you can face up to the problems or you can continue to fight them. But they will fight you back, to the last, and if I was there I'd do the same thing.

Because it's not that these techniques don't work, they work perfectly well if someone would actually try them, it's that you don't care that these kids have no food and have dingy squats to live in. You don't give a damn, paulardros, that's what the real crux of the issue is, things are seriously wrong in Scotland, we all know it, and until you fix up your country you can expect the youths to spit at you in the street, you can expect them to mug you as you walk home. How else do you want them to feed themselves?

juiceisgood, I am not sure which country you come from, it is definitely not the UK.
In the UK there is a benefits system for every person who lives here, nobody needs to be homeless, as local authorities, by law have to give them accomodation.
In the UK nobody starves as people are given money from the state. Before you come back to me with the saying that they don't give people enough money to live on. I will educate you, there are approx. 2 million people in the UK who are employed and earn less money that people on benefits. These people can apply for family credit to have more money. The UK benefit system is one of the best in the world. We are the 5th richest country in the world, not a third world country.We have the NHS which is free to all.
So when you say "squaller" I have not got a clue what you are on about and when you say steal to feed themselves is absolute nonsense.

Do you know how much it costs to live in a first world country in Europe like your own?

Did I ever mention homelessness? Although living in a Housing Commission flat could be considered pretty close.

The dole doesn't provide enough without other employment, and 'other employment' (that is, employment which doesn't provide enough to live on alone) isn't exactly the right job for everyone. Nor is it enough to live on (combined with welfare) for some...

Applications for family credit are for families, yes? What about individuals?

The fact is, many do have to turn to criminal activities to pay the bills, and feed themselves. Do these jobs assist the poor to raise their income? Get better jobs? These people are falling through the cracks in the social system, in education. The UK isn't exactly a socialist paradise, and the erosions of civil liberties will only continue to drag it away from an egalitarian society.

Juiceisgood, I am afraid we will have to leave this debate, we will just have to agree to disagree, but I will leave you with this fact. Any individual or family on benefits, have possessions in their house or flat. A coloured TV; A microwave; Playstation; Food; Cooker; Music Centre; Furniture; Beds; Carpets; Curtains; Clothes; Electricity; Central Heating; Blankets; Motor Car; Motor Bike; Bicycle; .... etc etc
When they need replacing they can get money to buy new from the state.
I have now finished debating with you , we live on different planets, or your getting your countries mixed up.

Oh indeed, every individual of driving age owns a car in Scotland *nods*


Well, if you don't feel like debating then I guess there's no point. Although it's kind of a mean trick to withdraw on such a patronising note. Indeed, if what you are saying is true, that Scotland is about to have these laws past, I have got my countries mixed up, I thought we all lived in liberal democracies in the West, this isn't the case obviously. You are more than welcome to your totalitarian nightmare, as long as you don't try to come over here and give it to me. More than welcome paulardros, there is always room for people who seek the erosion of civil liberty to such an extent in hell.

Um. You guys. Could we try some civility? Thanks.