I was reading this thread and the comments on abortion got my blood boiling. However, I didn't want to get too off-topic in that thread, so I decided to start a new one since it's been awhile since we had a topic about abortion.

I'm going to wait to go too in-depth about my personal beliefs until a few more people have commented. For now, all I'll start off saying is I am very much pro-choice and let the discussion continue from there.

This is the main reason I'm pro-choice (though I accidentally voted pro-life):

Think about it logically: if you illegalize abortions, that won't stop people from having them. In fact, since so much of the country is pro-choice, much of the law enforcement will just overlook secret abortions (regardless, they'd happen anyways. Under the police's nose, without them ever noticing). Now, think about it; if there are a few deaths leading from abortion complications per year when you're in nearly perfect conditions (hospital, trained professionals, etc.), can you IMAGINE the number of people that will die who'll be forced to get abortions in some allewyway performed by someone that has no idea what they're doing?

Or, if they have enough money, they can just go to Canada, Mexico, some other country or into international waters and get one there. It's not that hard, and no law can stop someone from doing that.

This's without getting into the morality, legality, etc. This is just logic.

A necessary condition for personhood is the possession of higher brain functions, in my opinion. A foetus develops these at 26 weeks. At and beyond this point, I see abortion as murder (though in practice at such a late stage an abortion is very rarely practicable). Before that, I do not consider a foetus a person, only a potential person in the same way that a spermatozoa or an unfertilised ovum is a potential person.

A word on this debate. Both pro-choice and pro-life camps agree that the foetus is alive. This is a medical fact. Both camps agree that it is human - this, again, is medical fact based on its genetic makeup. The question is one of personhood, which is almost the only place where pro-choice and pro-life disagree.

I'm pro-life. Religious reasons.

In every case, including rape, incest, and the probable death of the mother should she carry to term? I'm not challenging your position, it's based on religion so that would be a waste of time, I'm just asking you to clarify. A lot of pro-lifers will make exceptions for exceptional cases like the ones I described.

Pro Choice.

I have a son. Being pregnant is hard. Labour is bloody hard (l was awake for over 40 hours, in actual labour for 15 hours, gas and air, no drugs). But most of all, bringing up a child is hard. I was a gibbering wreck just after I had my son. You go through all that and then you're left on your own with this little thing that you have no idea what your supposed to do with. It took me about four months before we got into the swing of things and it took me about that long before I could honestly say that I loved him. My body is completely different now to what it used to be (physically and hormonaly). Money is always a bit tight. I never have a moment alone. I've had to give up my job (okay I'm working from home but I'm not in the office). My house has turned into a giant playpen. And I don't get to be selfish again until he leaves home in, perhaps 18 years time.

Basically, I have had to change every fibre of my life and being to accomodate my son.

But that's fine, because it was the choice that I made when I fell pregnant. I don't think that any woman should have to change her life to that extent if she does not want to.

I'm pro-choice. Partly because, like gerbil said, abortions will exist whether they're legal or not and I'd rather women go to a clean, safe abortion clinic than some back alley. I also think that every child should be a wanted child (meaning that people who don't want kids should be careful, because I can't stand it when women see abortion as a form of birth control).

I don't know if I could get an abortion myself, but in my opinion it just has to be legal. No country needs more kids being born to fifteen-year-old drug addict mothers living on the street. And granted, not everyone who gets an abortion is in that situation, but like I said every child should be a wanted child.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by higher brain functions... I'm assuming you don't mean intelligence, and functionality, since that would then legitimizing killing severely mental disabled people.

There are always exceptions.

But I wouldn't say that, if it were up to me, I would allow abortion in most cases of rape or incest. I hate that people are put in such difficult positions but I do believe a fetus is a human life, created by God for a purpose, and the thought of their deaths spiritually pains me.

The cases I could justify the termination of a fetus for rape or incest are ones in which the victim is a child (age 13 or younger). This cutoff has nothing to do with my religious beliefs and simply has to do with my sensitivity to the further damage of the child. Children are not meant to be having children.

As far as the probable death of mother idea, I usually consider pregnancy a health risk anyway - in the United States, one in 2,500 women dies from childbirth. So no, it isn't an exception with me at all.

I am pro-life, for I read the Bible, and I am a firm believer in Christianity. You can't change my stance on this. I believe abortion is mudering life. Of course there are special circumstances where it is more acceptable...

I am pro-choice, mostly because I believe that this question relies largely on spiritual beliefs. Since everyone has different religious opinions, it is a personal issue--not one in which the government has the right to intervene.

Pro-Choice.

Just being rational.

If the person doesn't want to get the abortion because they don't believe it is right, they don't need to have it. If they do not see anything wrong with it, then it is their choice.

Abortion is a necesary evil.

I'm pro-life, except if the mother's life will be in trouble during or after birth.

i'm pro choice all the way. no reason, its just that if you dont want one dont get one... like evilspoon said

Pro-choice. I'll elaborate later. Don't get me blood boiling, I've been told I'm too fiery pro-choice for my own good.

If you have seen pictures of aborted babies, I'm quite sure you'd be appalled. As am I when I see them. I, however am pro-choice. Not anti-life or something. I personally think that kids should be educated more on other forms of contraception, and that most kids shouldn't be having sex. Mostly there just needs to be a better education out there for young people. But I am all for individual rights, and freedom of choice and much of what has already been said here. I am very pro-choice.

While I somewhat agree with what you're saying, your logic is a bit iffy:

QUOTE

Think about it logically: if you illegalize abortions, that won't stop people from having them

You could apply that rational to anything (theft, rape, murder). And I don't think those should be legal. The sticking point is that thefts, rapes, murders affect other people badly, while, it can be said, an abortion only affects the person that chooses to do it. Much like getting a body piercing or a tattoo, for instance, or an appendectomy.

And that's the sticking point.. cause some people apparently think abortion is murder. And so your logic only works for people that think an abortion is a medical procedure instead of homicide...

-cm

May I bring up the issue of world population? More people isn't exactly what we're shooting for. I'm not saying abortions should be used solely on the premise to keep the population growing less fast, but it's certainly a factor. Like antagony said, every child should be a wanted child. If someone's pregnant and the foetus isn't to 26 weeks (past then I would consider murder) and they don't want the child, what use is it making them have it?

anyhoo, my opinion is that abortions are ok.

not great, but ok if that's what you want to do. and if you're gonna do it, the sooner the better.

I'm not sure where the line is, at which point a fetus becomes a human life. some might say it's at the time of birth.. some would say the line is drawn at the point in time where the baby could survive on its own, if say, it were born prematurely. some say that it's got to do with movement within the womb or a period of time to do with brain development. and some religious folks say it's at conception.. (and thus, even forms of birth control that regulate horomones are a form of abortion)


i've gotta say i draw the line at birth, though killing the poor thing just prior to birth is a seriously sad thing to do unless you absolutely have to (for safety sake, for instance).

the way i see it, human life is all about being a part of the world.. of experiencing the world.. and a baby that is not yet in the world (still in the womb) is a null..

..the child-to-be has no real "value" in the world to anybody but the mother - the woman who is herself The World to that baby. And if she, for any reason, does not want to bring her potential child into this world around us, that's for her to decide.


.. I hope that doesn't sound bad. Because I'm not at all saying that when a woman miscarries a baby unintentionally that the father or grand parents or friends were not upset by it, or did not value the baby.. but i'm speaking from the sense of.. i mean. just think of a baby as a blank tape, a blank disc, a blank sheet of paper. Yes, there can be so much potential, but until that baby enters the world.. the paper is blank. until birth, all that's been written about the baby exists on the mother's page.

-cm

On a very personal level, abortion bothers me. Not for religious reasons... I suppose it's intuitive. I could never have one. But I don't feel the need to force my feelings on a nation full of women who should legally have that option. It needs to exist, and I would never challenge it because I can't make judgements on other people's situations and beliefs. I don't presume to know when life begins and so I can't really tell other people "it's wrong because you're murdering your baby". It's their choice and the government cannot restrict it based on any one group's code of ethics.

It's... it's a necessary (I don't want to say 'evil'. Insert the better word that I can't think of right now) that can save people-- the mother, the child, society-- a lot of pain and suffering. And, as people have pointed out, it's really pointless to ban it because it will just go underground and continue to happen. But I don't have to like it.

Hmm... I spent so long writing that and yet it's so short. Kept continually rewording things.

do you know what's sad? one of the best comments on abortion that i've heard has been uttered by a sock. here's part of what ed the sock had to say in his EDitorial a few years ago:



so ya. i'm pro-choice.

undecided
It's not the abortions that bother me, It's the fact that people are having sex without thinking of the consequences. Sex has one reason, reproduction, the pleasure is only a convienient side-effect that is bieng abused, and it disturbs me that people are willing to dramaticly change thier lives over one nights pleasure.

Yes, contraception is important, but, sometimes, even when used correctly, it can fail. Only complete abstinence is 100% effective contraception. So sometimes even very careful, responsible people can find themselves unexpectedly pregnant. Just wanted to point that out.

I'm pro-choice. I believe women have the right to control their fertility. However, having seen abortion pics, heard about the proceedures, etc., I would hope that people who decide to have an abortion have one as soon as they possibly can.

On a related topic...I find it interesting that women's bodies every once in a while naturally abort fertilized eggs....it is not uncommon that fertilized eggs do not implant into the uterus wall, or will implant, but then somehow become detached and pass out of the woman's body without her ever knowing that, for a few hours or days, she had technically conceived and was "pregnant."

Personally, I believe this has implications for concepts like "the soul is created at conception," and "God-directed conception."

Just for the record, I am in totaly agreement with what Commie and Snugglebum said.

That totally sums up my feelings on this (and to be honest, many many other) issue. That's why I'm pro-choice. Give people the option. If they don't agree with abortions, whatever their reason, they won't have one. The folk that want one can have one.

I'm not sure quite how I feel about the cutoff date. I don't really know enough about it to give an educated opinion, but my gut feeling is that termination should occur earlier rather than later.

And there's the reason that I'm pro-choice. Having a kid is an awesome responsibility, and I feel that it's a morally justified decision to have an abortion rather than to carry the child to term when the parent(s) are ill-equipped to raise the child in a decent environment/way.
It's also my feeling that abortion is such a horrific process for a woman to go through that that alone will serve as a self-control on the process. No-one wants to go through that process, but in some cases, it's for the best.

Okay, but have you seen pictures of heart-surgery? Or hip-replacements? They're quite appalling too, but I think everyone agrees that they're a good idea. Any serious medical procedure is pretty horrifying.

I'm talking about self-awareness and being conscious, on some level, of one's surroundings. I do not consider somebody without these faculties to be a person.

My views on this are simple: I do not believe or support abortion in any way, but I have no right telling any woman what to do with her body.

I'm a Christian. I beliefe that life is special and sacred. I once even volunteered to sign a birth certificate as the father when my friend Harmonie had a pregnancy scare (which turned out to be false, thank God). However, I am also an anarchist and we believe that no one has the right to infringe on the rights or decisions of anyone else or that there should be a government to do so.

Simple enough, eh?

Exactly. I'm comfortable in my personal opposition to it but comfortable in others' personal decisions. It's my body. I wouldn't want an abortion. It's their body. Maybe they do. Definitively making it "right" or "wrong" for everyone can't be based on one individual's ideas on the subject.

On the issue of pictures of aborted babies. Hmm... yeah, I've seen some pretty horrific surgeries on television, including a pituitary gland operation in which the doctor simply cut a man's face out of the way in order to go up the nasal cavity and work on the brain. But even that wasn't as disturbing as when I was shown a video of aborted babies' dimembered bodies being pulled out of dumpsters in garbage bags. I think that there is a difference.

Where did you see that? Was it some PSE video or something?

Hmm. Catholic school. Mandatory Catholic Morality classes. I think they found the worst thing available and showed it to all the seniors during the week of the Pro-Life Washington March... a whole lot of people went.

It's odd they need that to make their point, or that they think they need that to make their point.

A pro-lifer would argue that since abortion affects somebody else, a woman does not have a right to one, any more than she has the right to rob or kill people. Rather like saying "if you think murder's wrong, don't do it - but let us have our fun!"



All life? When you excise a tumour, you are killing a mass of living, human, but unaware and undifferentiated cells, just as with a first-trimester abortion.

You know what I mean. I don't like abortion. I don't believe it's right. Quite honestly, I believe it's wrong, but I have no right to tell anyone else what to do and not to do with his/her body.

I was pointing out the difference between life, human and a person. This debate can become very easily confused, and terminology is important.

I'm Pro-Choice. Sometimes you make a wrong decision, or you get raped, and you might be too young for a baby. Not all pregnancies were done out of volunteering.

I too have been subjected to painfully grotesque pictures and films starring mutilated aborted fetuses, and it's one of the only issues that really bothers me with this debate. I think that people should be properly educated about abortion--to know exactly what they're getting themselves into before making a proper decision. But it really bothers me when people feel the need to use sensationalism and shock value to get their point across.

You can show me all the aborted babies you want. I won't change my stance.

Mmm, same here. Show me all the suffering pigs, cows and farm animals in the world; it won't stop me from eating meat. Same with abortion. I've made a rational decision and I won't let emotion get in the way of my logic.

When they showed that video I know that it didn't change the minds of the (extremely few) Pro-Choice people. And it just upset the Pro-Life people. Subjecting me to grotesque images and tragic music isn't going to make me run out and march on Washington. And, as gothic and Polo have said, that kind of thing shouldn't have any bearing on your beliefs. I think people, for the most part, know abortion isn't pretty. I agree that it was shock value, Tomoyo.

Shock tactics such as that are intellectually dishonest. To use them in place of an argument is immoral emotional blackmail. Showing me that just makes me more pro-choice.

reminds me of a scene from Runaway Jury. Hmm...to what Commie said, it would make me more pro-choice, but shouldn't increase the level of opposition/anger you have toward the other side. Yes, yes, I know anger isn't the right word - disagreement. 'Cause that's one case, not many. However, it is used widely...so...*shrugs* I just don't like shock tactics either. Amen.

i go to a catholic 6th form, and luckily i missed out on the video of the abortion, the other re class didnt though.
last day of this term we had a completely biased woman in telling us how evil abortion is. many of her 'facts' were completely untrue.

anyway, yes, pro-choice. Im not going to go into detail coz im only going to be repeating whats been said. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i dont like having it forced on me. i dont tell everyone who is anti abortion that they should kill their child... (yes i know that point is nonsensical and irrelevant)

anyway, i hate children. People can have them if they really want, just keep em away from me.

Abortion Rights March on Washington



I think I'm going to vomit at that. Surely all people who are anti-choice don't use the shock sensationalism method, but people representing them that way, and so many people doing that...uggghh...

No, of course not all pro-life people are like that. The majority I've met have been quite nice, pleasant people -- we just disagreed on certain issues.

There's just always that vocal minority, however.

Look at it this way -- at least they were just holding up photos and not bombing an abortion clinic. I don't understand people who do that at all. How is harming (and well, probably killing) doctors, nurses, pregnant women, etc. better than a surgical procedure to remove something that can't even exist outside of the mother's body? I doubt anyone here can answer that, because we're all sane enough to know that blowing up buildings with people inside = bad . At least, I hope we are....

It isn't. That sort of nonsense is tantamount to terrorism.

Actually, scratch that. It IS terrorism. Same principle; blow up relevant targets, kill and maim innocent people, just to make a point.

I'm pro choice. I don't see what an abortion has to do with anyone but the person going through it.

There's this guy at my church who's really, really, really pro-life (I really don't even like that term; is there a more appropriate one?) and he's a bit militant about it. Not in the sense that he'll blow anything up or show pictures of aborted fetuses (at least I don't know of), but he has been known to protest and get hardcore about it, but he's a really cool guy none-the-less.


It's not. Crap like that pisses me off just as much as anyone. More if you include how I'm Christian and these assholes stand behind Christ and throw bombs and what-not. That gets to me the most.


Agreed. Like I said, I'm not for abortion, but it really is up to the person in question.

Because, to an anti-abortionist, the woman undergoing an abortion is committing murder. She is killing a person. Obviously you disagree, but surely you can see their point?

I can see their point and, to a lesser extent, I can agree with them. I don't see it as murder per se, but I do see it as cutting a life off before it even begins.

What if the woman was raped and became pregnant? Would your views still be the same?

I think the rape issue should be based on whether or not the mother is capable of keeping the kid, financially and emotionally. I'm pro choice in most cases, but I think that if you are raped, it's no reason to just not have the kid. Children are raised with single parents all the time, and it is still technically the woman's flesh and blood.

I stand by my earlier comments on the threshold of personhood, but assuming that threshold has been passed, rape does not justify the murder of a person who had nothing to do with the rape. I understand that rape is horrific and traumatic, but it wasn't the baby's fault.