Alright.. first post I've actually started besides my introduction. woo-hoo, I'm moving up in the world! And I consider this serious, so... I put it in here.
(I'm kinda a dot freak when I write, because I type like I write so..bleh)

Here's the best way I can descibe this.. and it does...well it is pessimistic, but at the same time true.

Practically every act you commit is selfish, even if it's involuntary, it can be seen as being selfish. And the best example I can come up with is this; If there is a burning building in the middle of no where...and there is a baby inside, and only you can save them, (Now keep in mind, the house isn't completely in flames, but still it's a burning building and how many people wanna jump into that situation willingly?) you would do one of two things;

1) You would walk away because you don't feel like getting burnt to a crisp, which is selfish because you were the only one who could save the infant. This is automatically seen as selfish. Also, I personally believe that cowardism (is that even a word?) and selfishishness in most scenerios go hand in hand, like in this case. basically cowardism=selfishness.

2) You would save the baby (yay!) because it's the humane thing to do. Now, this is selfish, because if you walked away (and assuming you had a human heart that wasn't two sizes too small) you would feel guilt. And guilt is something that is an inconvienance (sp) to you, so rather than feeling that guilt you save the baby. I'm not saying that's the only reason.. but in an extremely pessimistic light, that is one of the reasons..and that is considered selfish.. because you're not doing it only to save the baby, but to save yourself from feeling guilt if you didn't save him.. is this making any sense at all?

I consider myself a Kantist and an ethical egoist. Kant said that one must do good out of respect for the duty itself. Ethical egoism states that you, ethically, do what is in your best interest. I do good because I respect the duty, thus giving me that warm fuzzy feeling inside. I help people out because 1) I feel good doing it and 2) my hope is that the good deed will spawn more good will, perhaps coming back to me. Also, with my spiritual beliefs, it is written "Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness ( ) then all these things will be given to you." I'd like for God to reward me, so I focus myself on what He wants me to do, even if my only reward is that warm fuzzy feeling. There are a thousand and one examples I can give, but I think these illustrate my point.


The term is cowardice, dear.

To be fair I wouldn't do something like that out of guilt, risking your own personal safty is a selfless act, i don't think anyone's going to be thinking "well, I guess I should save the baby, otherwise I'll feel like crap" but more along the lines "holy crap, that little sprog is gonna get toasted, can't let that happen". The only way it would become selfish is if you did it and expect....or demanded a reward, that'd be a sucky thing to do. Whats more choosing NOT to save the baby isn't nessecarily selfish either, entering a dangerous situation like that is potentially suicide which goes against the self preservation which is hard wired into our brains.

It all depends on your point of view.

Okay, I don't really think that it's selfish to save the baby in all cases. In a few the person might do it because of what he/she thinks of what soceity will think of him/her if he/she doesn't. But, at the same time, the person may just be doing it because it's what their heart tells them to do. It's what's right to them. It all depends on how you look at things I guess.


*shrugs*

and yay for first postness!

gah okay, this is the second time I've tried to post this because my laptop is being incredibly slow and loosing everything on me.

I don't think that it's so much on what you're thinking soceity will think of you if you save the baby. That, for most people, shouldn't play a part in their thoughts at all. If it were me I'd follow my heart and save the child. Think about it; this is a living breathing baby who hasn't had a chance at life - I've had 17 years here. If I get burnt to a crisp or die trying even, it would be worth every painful minute of it.

For me, that's where Kant's philosophy comes into play. I respect my beliefs so in order not to go against them, I save the kid. WHy? because they're my beliefs and values and why are they my beliefs and values? Because I respect them. It's not like we do this conciously. Egocentricism is hardwired into our brains, as SPS said, for self preservation. That's why we don't overthink most of the things we do. For example, we don't say, "I'll help out George by giving him a shoulder to cry on because Noreen dumped him for Holden because I will feel guilt if I refuse him and fear that, in my time of need, he won't be there for me." Instead, we don't think and just say, "Dude, what happened?" and "Don't worry, man. I'm here for you."

Some more examples:

I love my dad, but I don't go to work for him to make him money. I go to work and do a good job so I can make money.

Do you say to yourself, "I'll take a shower so my odor doesn't offend others." No, you say, "I'll take a shower because I don't want to smell like hell."

I don't want to do heroin, not because my parents, my brother, society and the Man don't want me to. I don't do heroin because I don't want to be a junkie.

I don't date Trina for her sake, though now that we're in a relationship that is a factor (I chalk it up to that warm fuzzy feeling). I date Trina because I like being with her.

I didn't quit drinking because it pissed my family, friends and girlfriend off. I quit for the sake of my mental well being.

You don't go to McDonald's to eat to support their business. You go because you're hungry and want food.

I watch after my little sister because it gives me a feeling of purpose (and that warm fuzzy feeling) to be a part of her life.

I care about my mentally ill cousin and try to mentor him. I choose to care. I could not care if I wanted to, but I don't because I respect my beliefs and recognize that since I had no one to mentor me, I want to mentor him, thus making me feel good for helping and rising above my past (and yes, the warm fuzzy feeling).

Am I making sense?

SPS
Consciously, probably not. However how one will be regarded in society is a very important facor in human descision making. It influences so much of what we do, sub-consciously.Self-preservation can be over-ridden by fear of society(guilt plays into this as well, even if the societal part does not, because the accepted moral view reflects society).

Spiff
The heart(morality) is a library of sorts of experiences and data. We are taught right from wrong, this is our core data. We use this core data to aid in the descision making for experiences. You don't risk your life for no purpose, it is because you have been wired by morals and experiences to do so.Sometimes it's not even society, but the guilt you feel as a result of diverting from the common morals of the society, subconsciously.

Righteous
Oooh, Kant. I'd like to have that discussion sometime, however now is not the time, too tired. Would it truly be your morals and values or those of others transcripted onto you and/or reactions to others causing you to form your own moral code? I am a firm believer that nothing happens by accident, that we are shaped maninly by our environment. I therefore refuse to accept that we all use reason to shape our morals, they are really determined by our upbringing. We are raised not to eat bugs, reason would dictate this odd since bugs are an incredible source of protein.However in many many cases self-preservation can be over-ridden by morality. Self-preservation would dictate that one hundred starving third world children dying are favorable to you dying granted they had no affect on you. However I think most of us if we had to choose would let the starving children live instead of us.

You know...I hate to point this out (mainly because it will force me to admit that I've watched the show), but there was an entire episode of Friends dedicated to the idea that there are no unselfish acts.



Ergh. Getting back into that whole "What would you die for" thing we had awhile back. Whether I would or not depends on how crispy the house was becoming and how close the baby was to the door. I personally would only risk it if I was relatively certain that I could get both of us out alive (a lot of good it would do the baby if I died trying, since I'd obviously have to CARRY him/her and they'd die if I died too). Meanwhile, where are this kid's parents? And what am I doing walking around in the middle of nowhere? Well, if for some bizarre reason I was in that situation, I wouldn't walk away -- if I thought I couldn't get us both out, I would find some way to call the appropriate authorities. I don't think that is cowardice. Nor do I think someone who charges in to get the baby is doing it for selfish reasons.

What if you actually care about the person? You can say your conscious and unconscious stuff about that, but I know most of the time I actually care about the people, and that's why I give them a shoulder to cry on.

If you care about the person, you like the feeling of caring for them, and helping them makes you feel good for whatever reason, so you do it.

Well, our main instincts are for self-preservation, so pretty much everything we do has to have some benefit for us. We do good things mainly out of guilt and because it makes us feel good about ourselves. On the other hand, I've accepted this fact for a while and I've gotten to a point where I don't really care why people do good things, as long as they do them. Helping others is no less beneficial to them if you do it with selfish intentions. And there's nothing worse, if you ask me, than someone who doesn't do anything at all because they think all selfless actions are inherently selfish.

Does that make any sense?

Thus, the emotional reward (the warm fuzzy feeling) is your motivation, concious or subcondious. You want to.


I agree and disagree there, Max. Moral codes can be instilled in us by our parents, surroundings and what-not, but we also choose on what to do (or not to do). My siblings and I all have different codes of morality and abide by them in different ways. My focus is on others. If someone needs anything, I will do my best to help him/her out. If Rick needed a ride to Jacksonville (and I still had my car) I'd drive him to the south side just because I respect the duty and it gives me a sense of fulfillment. If I don't give him a ride, I won't necessarily feel guilty so it's more of a perk. I do what is good for others to feel good, thus my reward (and after a while, you get really addicted to doing good).



It's done out of respect for the duty. For one reason or another, folks like these respect life and moral duty enough to want to helpp. It's like, they know that this tragedy will make them sad, so they do their best to prevent being sad via stopping the tragedy. It's a seriously dissected view on things, but not a bad one.

So your overall point is that everything is selfish in its own way? I disagree. Although it may benefit you, that doesn't mean it's selfish. Selfish is usually something that just pleases you.

It sucks that we don't have a lighter word for "selfishness." I'm looking at it from an Ayn Rand perspective. She believed that moral egoism was the way to go and so do I.

Yes. No contest there.I am not saying that all morality is common due to upbringing. I do however state that there is common morality. ?Differences in morality come from experiences that shape us. A person I know is vehemently pro-choice because she had the chance of being born with a bad disease and if she was she'd have preferred abortion. However this is not her upbrininging, it is her experience. Rejection of or altering of things comes from personal experience.I still contend that the majority of people do not do moral acts out of respect, but out of pressure.If you do it because it benefits you, it is selfish. If you honestly do something for them and not because it benefits you, helping them makes you feel good inside, that is the underlying selfish motive.A word is only a word, not a moral conotation. Meanings are ascribed by values, and for you then selfishness is not bad.

I'm sure. They want to relieve the pressure so they do good deeds. There is always a "want" involved, be it morally or imorally selfish.

Oh wow..I had no idea that was on Friends, now it makes me feel not as original... but my history teacher Mr. Shuster (my god he was so cool) told me that anything you think of... has already been thought of or done, which is kinda sick when you think of ways to torture people. And thank all you guys for replying to my post, now I won't be as shy to start some.

[QUOTE]If you do it because it benefits you, it is selfish. If you honestly do something for them and not because it benefits you, helping them makes you feel good inside, that is the underlying selfish motive.

( I forgot how to quote and I think I did it wrong) But what Sir Maxerpopple said was basically what I was trying to say, but he said it waaaayyy better.