it turns out... they might be bringing back the draft with a few changes... one... gender is not an issue guy or girl your number is up. and also you cant dodge it...

link

thoughts?

Damn and heck! Now might be a good time for some of you Americans to start applying for Canadian citizenship. Ooh! Better yet: European citizenship of some sort. It would make Meets easier.

Hmm. Can't say it honestly worries me overmuch. There were talks of doing the exact same thing when I was about 14 years old...and about every 2 or 3 years since then as well. Obviously, nothing has ever come of it.

As was mentioned in the other draft thread, our government already has a plentiful supply of volunteers for the military. I see no reason for them to reinstate a draft. I've just stopped worrying about it, because every time I hear about it, it always turns out to not really be happening. Granted, it could someday, but there is just no reason for it at this point. I'm honestly just tired of worrying about it, and having my worries be for nothing. When I see something from a source I know is reputable, then maybe I'll worry.

How would they even draft women? First they'd have to make some SERIOUS changes with selective service, since no woman has ever been registered with them. Just sending out notices and dealing with twice the paperwork since women would be required to register as well would cost more than that article said the selective service was going to be using to reinstate a draft. Think about it...they'd have to hire twice as many employees just to process the registrations. Even if I didn't already have doubts, that would make me question how valid this article is.

I can almost certainly be excused from service on medical grounds; I saw one of the forms for signing up once, and a number of the medical criteria applied to me. I don't think I'd do this, though: if drafted for something I didn't believe in or support, like the occupation of Iraq, I'd refuse on the grounds of conscientious objection, and if drafted for something which I thought was right, I'd go willingly.

Doesn't bother me, I already served and can't be drafted. And any "American" who goes and applies for citizenship elsewhere wasn't much of an American to begin with.

And any government that forces its citizens to kill and/or die for a cause they don't believe in isn't much of a government to begin with.

America was founded on freedom by radicals who had the figurative balls to question their government. To me, that's what an "American" should be, a freedom-loving individual who has the courage to stand up and say the one word that makes governments around the world tremble: "Why?" Do I abhor the American government with a sick passion? Yes, but do I consider myself American? By my definition, more now than ever. A few years ago, my eyes were opened to what real freedom is, which, since I last checked, has nothing to do with bombing brown people overseas who've done nothing. Now I'm an anarchist and damn proud of it and will take any punishment before I give up the one freedom no man or woman can ever take from me: my soul. Fighting for freedom doesn't mean going to die for something I care nothing about; it means having the strength to say, "No. This is my life and will do with it what I please."

I shredded my Selective Service card. I don't want to be thrown into another Viet Nam or Iraq. Honestly, I'd rather die.

EDIT: I just realized that this was my 3000th post. I'm glad it went to a good cause.

We have 3 million troops, we do not need all 3 million. A draft would be silly and uncalled for.

sorry a bit off subject. but killing people is WRONG, its not right its WRONG, it doesnt matter if they "attacked" us first KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG. never has been right will always be WRONG. how do you expect to set them free by killing the lot of them? *bang* "oh by the way we may have killed your 5 year old daughter, but heres a blown up contry and your freedom to do with as you wish even tho the represive state in which you have lived all your life wont change a bit because thats how you were raised, you can now eat fast food at mcdonalds" KILLING IS FREAKING WRONG. "oh he was killing his own" so that give us the right to go in and kill a few million more? KILLING IS WRONG. why dont we instead of trying to take opver countrys and murder the people that live there instill a few freaking morals in our nation that way... perhapes... they will follow by EXAMPLE, not at gun point. i hope my repetiveness got the point in there.

on subject: wait... that was kinda on subject, but anyway... i dont think they will actually start up the draft agin from the shear fact that bush want to get re-elected, not piss off ever 18-45 year old in the nation... thoes are his votes...i jsut wanted to get a few veiws on this...

You know they'll fine and/or imprison you if you don't register, right?

There's no guarantee that there will be a draft. I find it highly unlikely that one will be needed anytime soon...I honestly can't see one happening before you are 26 and can no longer be drafted. But it's a certainty that they WILL prosecute you if you don't register.

Yeah, I know.

Okay then. Have fun in prison, Ri.

Personally, I would register if I was a guy...simply to avoid the whole jail/fine thing. But if an actual DRAFT came around...that's different. I'd rather be thrown in jail THEN. But it wouldn't hurt me at all to register, since I find it highly unlikely that I'd ever be called.

I'd rather take prison than give into the Man. Henry David Thoreau was imprisoned for refusing to pay war taxes. St. Paul was imprisoned for "instigating dissent." I'd rather be opressed for righteousness then free for cowardice.

It would not be cowardice that kept me out of prison.

It's just not something I feel is worth 5 years of my time and $10,000 of my money (I think those are the amounts...not sure...I'd have to check the website again). I don't see the point in taking a stand against registering for the selective service in that way. There are other ways to do so that won't get you into trouble.

And sorry, but you are sadly mistaken if you think that you're going to become some sort of martyr by refusing to register with the selective service. More than likely you will get no publicity and will make no difference at all.

I don't care if I'm a martyr. I'd be doing it to keep my concious clear. I cite St. Paul and HDT because I look up to them. It's not like I have anything to lose anyway. I haven't much of a life and haven't even seen ten grand. Look, the Man can do what it wants, but I won't play ball, hell I won't even go near it. I won't even step onto the field. Regardless of what happens, I won't give in. I won't love Big Brother (1984 reference).

Call me nuts, but freedom really does mean that much to me and I don't plan on giving my soul up anytime soon.

I skimmed the information about it... did they have a good REASON for reinstating it? Wait, there IS no good reason. We don't need a draft.

Anyway, I think they're just talking. They're always playing around with ideas like this, but I can't fathom why. If they aren't, I think I can be exempt for medical reasons. And if that doesn't work, I'm moving to Europe. If there were a justified cause I believed in, I'd fight for it (i.e. something comparable to WWII), but I don't support much of anything the government has done lately.



I don't care if I'm not an American.

That particular definition of American seems to involve being mindlessly patriotic so it seems a good thing to not be in that case.

I'm from the UK so i'm not gonna comment any further, except for saying it seems stupid to make people fight for something they don't believe in, caused by something most of them were probably totally against in the first place. I find it hard to understand the logic behind forcing people to do something they don't want to and still expecting them to do a good job.

I'm glad I'm too young to be drafted. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not a coward. But, I don't believe in this cause, and, even if I did, I'm not Vash the Stampede, nor am I Himura Kenshin, however I am vehemently against killing, period. So, basically, if I were to be drafted and not make it to Europe, it'd be something like this: Boot camp. Go to first battle. Get shot. There I go, and then my family has to deal with my death. So, in my opinion, service in the military should be 120% voluntary.

A friend of mine showed an article like that to me. Personally, I would serve my nation in a war I didn't agree with, because If I go, all yall don't have to. And I think the U.S has given me alot, so it seems logical to give back to them. They didn't have to give the whole freedom thing to me. I've said some things against them, and odds are the government wouldn't like that. But they let me say it.

On topic, There is absolutely no reason the U.S needs a draft. We are already the largest military force in the universe. A draft would cause chaos for the government.

I never said you shouldn't speak your mind, oppose a draft, oppose a war, etc. I said that anyone who'd apply for citizenship and flee the country because of a draft was no American to begin with. What part of that was too difficult to understand?

An American doesn't run away from a challenge, he or she faces it head on and deals with it. If that means that you disagree with a war then you disagree with it AS AN AMERICAN and you can protest, vote, do what you must. If you feel strongly enough about it, form a militia and attempt to overthrow the government, I'm all for that. I am not however, for anyone who would turn and run and leave their countrymen behind in the face of a crisis. You stand up for what you believe in. If you aren't willing to fight for your freedoms then you don't deserve them. Like the man said "Freedom is anything but free". So go and run to Canada or Europe, eventually you or your children or their children will be asked to serve in that country and eventually they WILL run out of places to run. What then? Will you dig a hole and hide in it? Nice life.

If you care that little about your country, leave now, before there's a draft, before another day goes by, go to another country and be their problem. If you plan on staying here, then do something. If you disapprove of something work to change it. Don't just shoot your big fat mouth off and talk about being an anarchist. You sound more like a spoiled little brat and I doubt you even have the slightest inkling of what anarchy really is. You just think it's "Cool", I bet you even have one of those nifty-keen t-shirts with the Anarchy symbol on it that you wear to tick off mummy and daddy. Yeesh!

Anarchist are just lazy fools who would rather sit on their hands and wait for a new order to come around that they agree with than take an active roll in creating a better world. In other words, they're socially and emotionally stunted people.

Do not insult people based on their political beliefs. If you disagree with anarchy - keeping in mind that two of our regular forumites are anarchists - then make an argument against it, don't just insult the people who hold that belief. You only make yourself sound stupid. --Commie.

Not likely in Canada... people would have a FIT if someone tried to initiate a draft here...

--

Please be more polite in your emails and not just insult people, even if you disagree with them. (Read the rules if you need clarification). Be prepared to discuss your ideas, don't just insult others who disagree with you. Thanks.

Commie, feel free to RESPOND to me, but don't insert comments in my posts please. I post my opinions, like everyone else. Do not censor my opinions or annotate them. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Including the many many anti-American opinions posted on here every week. I don't see you putting little disclaimers in those posts.

Anarchy, like Communism, can look real good on paper. In practice however, you wouldn't want to live with it. And that's not just an opinion, it's a simple matter of logic and proven historical evidence.

---

Canada on the other hand, while you may not be instituting a draft now, lets pose a hypothetical situation. Some third world country steals all your beer and kills all your hockey players. DRAFT!

Strike the Root

This is a site populated by anarchists, minarchists and libertarians of all ages. This is one of the places that opened my mind to anarchy (specifically anarcho-capitalism). Based on the economic rewards alone, I'd love to live in an anarchy. Factor in the moral and ethical benefits of having no government and Bob's your uncle.


Anarchy means the absence of a higher government. To an anarchist, this means no coercive force to trample your rights and steal your money. Just because one makes bombs in his basement doesn't make him/har an anarchist; it means he/she has hobbies.


We do. We do our best to resist the Man wherever, whenever and however possible. We also are firm believers in educating others to what freedom and anarchy really mean.


And we anarchists do every day. We just have a much different challange and much different ways of going about it.


Every true anarchist I've ever met has been a complete, well-rounded, mature individual. You may see the philosophy as being bred from that, but a blanket statement like that does not describe everyone who follows the philosophy. I'm a Christian (which is the basis of my political beliefs) and folks say that about Christians all the time. It's quite insulting.


Yes, but we don't attack others or use loaded words to get our point accross, Guarldi is a conservative cat but he presents his arguements in a calm, nicely laid-out manner and we don't attack him for his beliefs either. The key word is "discussion," amigo.


Agreed, but the price for freedom has nothing to do with valiancy on the battlefield or bombing brown people (Carlin reference).


Well, yeah in the same way you think democracy is "cool."


We still have our beer and football players. No third-world country has taken them, so by that rationale, we don't need a draft.


Well, you're right about one thing.

And Commie, who's the other anarchist on Matazone?

I was referring to The Juicey One, whose eagle eye peruses this thread even as I type.

Uh, Commie is a mod, and that is sort of his job here... to make sure the rules are followed, and the rules had been broken... so take the consequences, learn from the mistake, move on.



OMG DRAFT NOW.

Ah, yes. He who proves that juice is, indeed, good.

And Tigersong, before you decide on a draft, your government still needs to formally apologize for Bryan Adams and Celine Dion, so first things first.

Aye, keeping a decent distance for the discussion, likely to lose my temper.

But let it be said that few actually understand the true mechanism behind anarchy, I mean, they assume that it would be life like this without government, and that it would fall to peices like that. Obviously there's going to have to be a decent amount of social and economic change for soemthing like this to happen. But the revolution progesses in leaps and bounds.

What about other countries? Are any other countries going to be in need of a draft any time soon?

(I love you Juicy. Will you marry me?)



I created a thread on Anarchy and a thread on Communism. I suggest you try your arguments in there, it's quite fun, and we got a little riled up with Communism Search around for them and bump 'em!

Guys,

Like you, when I first saw this, I was both startled and angry. I personally have no problem with a draft...when my country is about to be invaded. Which is not something Iraq was about to do, especially now. So, consequently, this proposal makes me uneasy.

However, as someone else pointed out to me (and I probably should have seen this--this week's not one of my better ones), the persons who put forth these Bills have a certain strange quality to them.

They're democrats. In fact, even most of the cosponsors of the House (I wasn't able to find the party info on three or four of them) bill are democrats. Which, at least in my opinion, and considering other things known about the DOD and our (America's) modern military, changes the equation a little bit.

The American military, at least insofar as I've read and heard, rather likes it's volunteer force. No one wants to fight with a guy who doesn't want to be there in the first place. So, they'd be likely to oppose a draft, at least privately.

I honestly can't imagine Bush trying to push a draft (I could be wrong, though), because in this political environment, and with all the turmoil surrounding the Iraqi insurgency and war, sending off a random selection of America's "boys and girls" is political suicide. Granted, the bill is set to come into place after the election, so Bush still could have some hand in it (and if he does, there is, without a doubt, neoconservative influence from within his administration).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, while this could be legitimate, it also could be just a political ploy by a few democratic senators.

So, ultimately, it's still up in the air. And it is still in Committee.

But I could be wrong.

Just thought I'd bring that up. Kudos to the guys that pointed this out to me.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

David Carlson

Err.....what the hell? I've read through several of your posts in several threads, and though while I have respect for your patriotism(one of my best friends is one), I must ask, what the hell? Where do these definitions of an "american" come from? You and others like them I assume. Does that make them fact? ABSOLUTELY NOT. An american is a person who lives in america. A patriot is well...you. They are not the same. America stands for the freedom to be as cowardly and weak as you want, and if you can't understand that, then your understanding of america is rather skewed.

First off... I apologize if I am coming off as a crackpot. Allow me to put it into a bit of perspective before I go on.

There are a lot of sites online with discussion forums that I visit, and invariably topics will lead to politics and with that a lot of anti-American comments are made. This offends me quite a bit as in almost all cases it's uncalled for and unbearably rude. I've had to deal with an awful lot of it in the past few years. I won't get into a lot of specifics or details but it's been a major bone of contention with me and it's just gotten to the point where when I see someone make a negative or derogatory remark about my country I get incredibly pissed off.

While everyone is entitled to an opinion, people should not go around saying derogatory things about entire countries like this. It's been done here many times in the past (and probably will be done again in the future). It should never happen. Mata claims he's banned people for it but if that's the case why does it continue to happen? He himself has made some rather broad, sweeping remarks of a derogatory nature about America.

So anyway, when it comes to my opinions, they're mine, period. You have yours and in a lot of cases people just have to agree to disagree, but it's never a good thing to trash a whole group of people.

With regards to patriotism and "what an American is", true, you don't have to be a patriot or believe the things I said to be a United States citizen, but in my opinion you do need to have a sense of duty and patriotism to be an "American". BEING is an act, a verb, it takes some action. Existing without doing is something everyone can do regardless of nationality. You can be a citizen of any country and not be active about it. So, to BE English would mean you would activly be at least in favor of England. To just live there and be a citizen doesn't take any effort so you're just English as a matter of chance. If you are an American by chance of birth and don't believe you should support your nation and your fellow countrymen and try to improve things, well, to my way of thinking you're not an American, you're not anything else relating to any nation either. It's hard to explain how I feel about this in written words, sorry.

As for Anarchy... Well, my definition is somewhat different from what you're describing. Anarchy is to me, the breakdown of all order. A lawless society which, to my way of thinking, would be quite bad. What you've described to me (and one of you even used the word) is actually more of a Libertarian point of view. And in fact, I am a Libertarian, says so right here on my voters registration card. But Libertarians do not believe in NO government and NO laws, we believe in SMALL government, in getting the government out of our private lives. It does NOT however mean that the government is not involved in foreign policy, the military, etc. Do any of you who claim to be Libertarians ever read the LP News? Just curious.

Anyway, that covers some of it I guess. I'm a bit brain fried right now so if I missed anything, sorry.

Shouldn't throw questions around like that darlin', not unless you mean em


But I mean, apparently we've parented a kid The Lorax...


Anyway, to make this on-topic, I've been worrying about my own country instituting conscription. Australia has follwed GWB and the war on terror very eagerly, at least at a political level, and it seems the current government has no intent to withdraw our troops. Australia had conscription during Vietnam as well.... Looking into applying for Dutch citizenship as we speak. =\

I was once a Libratarian and I'm registered to vote as one (though I refuse to vote). I then changed to being a minarchist and now I'm an anarchist. The more I look into it, the idea of government seems wrong and the draft only seems to feul that among me and other anarchist/minarchists. And if this country were invaded, screw the army, I'll just consult my Terror Engineer Handbook and make mustard gas and magnesium bombs and what-not. Folks in the mid east are using less than that on American soldiers and look how well they're doing.




(golf-claps)

Ok, this is off topic so I'll be gone after this post. What I was talking about at least, is pretty much what you thought originally, the withdrawal of government. Only difference is, you think the world would end, I think that with work and perseverance, we could change the face of humanity enough to completely do without governments without rogue gangs roaming the streets killing children.

I'm not a libertarian, I hold similar beliefs, but I'm an anarchist. If you want to discuss, debate or clarify anything on the subject, my PM box is open, otherwise I think we should leave it at that and get back to the draft discussion. I also hold some rather wild veiws on Anti-Americanism, but judging from your stance we shouldn't discuss them publicly or privately, I'm a rampant foreigner and don't give a damn about American patriotism, from an unbiased standpoint, America as a country has committed many wrongs on the world and very few rights, I hold the population directly responsible for the very absence of action you speak of. My beliefs about what should be done are radical and perhaps shocking, and they've got me into trouble too many times to repeat here

Funny thing about American citizenship. Congress only defined it as bieng born or naturalized so that all the slaves would be free to vote, which in hand would keep them in office. Those radicals knew how to get what they wanted eh?

I disagree with anarchy, because of the fact that people are so different, if we had no government, all hell would break loose.

If you don't want to serve then by all means don't. The U.S isn't gonna force you.

I regard citizenship of a country (ie. "to be American") as a nationality and nothing more. As mentioned, nationality is purely a matter of chance. For this reason, I view patriotism as arbitrary and pointless. This is also why I very strongly resist the idea of the draft--why should someone be forced to risk their life for a country that they had no choice to be born into? I don't have a problem with patriotism, as long as it's voluntary; patriotism should not be an obligation.

And while Grammar Nazism is the current trend:
A verb does not necessarily require action. There are two types of verbs, transitive and intransitive, and only transitive verbs require action. The verb "to be" (and all of its variations) is an intransitive verb, and does not carry an action; it is simply a state of being, a state of existance. Therefore, I consider myself to be American by birth, but feel no obligation to act on that.

All I can say is, I feel sorry for many of you. You haven't caught on to some very important things in life that are eventually going to sneak up on you and give you something to think about. I'd like to talk to all of you about this again in say 20 years, see where your minds are then.

Cthulhu, I wish you would explain. I abhor it when people accredit my views to my age. I see how there could be a relation; but I think everyone involved here is not just forming their views to the advantage of their age. I want to know how being older could change somebody's views - given that if they're younger and already understand anything that would happen when they are older.

EDIT: Yeah, sorry, wrong thread. But, hey, Mata still agreed with me! *Fans self*

...what the f***?! No wonder I was confused! Polos, you posted in the wrong thread now you have to say something about the draft...I wonder if you said something about the draft under smoking...

Cthulhu, while you may well be right that many people on here are young and have not had practical experience of how politics impacts on their lives, it's also not a very responsible attitude to say 'you'll understand when you get older'.

If you have a rationale that will change the minds of people that you deem to be immature then please state it. You believe that they will experience nasty surprises in their lives, so instead of letting these things sneak up on people, how about explaining them?

Personally my understanding of the Anarchist movement is limited. In many ways it seems similar to me to the ideal of Communism, countries and economies running themselves because they have been set up correctly in the first place. Communism is a political movement I admire for its idealism as much as I realise that the idealism is also its flaw.

People have presented good reasons to not agree with the draft, the main one being freedom to choose whether they wish to be involved in military conflict, as well as other equally valid points.

It's true, teenagers often do not have experience of life, such as paying taxes, trying to find money for rent/mortgages and food, but that doesn't mean that their views don't matter. Many people in their teenage years take a very active interest in politics and matters of state. Are they idealists without understanding of how the world works? Possibly, but we need idealists, they are the people who bring change.

Wanting to change the world for the better sounds pretty much about the best thing that anyone could want, American or not. It's a lot more patriotic than being prepared to kill for your country, because who's to say that any individual's death will improve the global situation? Politicians, at least when they start, are also idealists. They believe that they can make a positive change in the world.

Polo is right (albeit I wouldn't have said his point in such a blunt way), sometimes younger people can be swayed by ideas that leads to nothing, more easily perhaps than adults, but at least they are not cynical enough to believe that idealism is hopeless.

I think that people are still swayed by pointless ideas when they get older, it's just that the ideas become more mundane. When you're older it's no longer 'Anarchy is the way forward, and how about smoking while you're at it?!', instead it's 'Buy this sofa and your life will be better! Driving a big car is the American way! (cue shot of flag flapping in the breeze)'

Cthulhu, it's really up to you, do you want to help (as you see it) these people by telling them the secrets that you have learnt over the years, or do you want to keep them to yourself and continue saying that they are immature? If it's the latter then kindly leave this debate alone.

In a short sentence: Go to hell. I feel rather patronised, either treat members as equals or leave. Sure, I guess I don't speak for everyone here, in fact, I only speak for myself, but man, you've infuriated me perhaps a dozen times so far since you started posting here, most of them rather personal attacks, or in the least an arrogant and supreme air in the extreme. What can I say? My first instincts were correct, I'm keeping a decent distance for this thread and anything else political until something is done. Perhaps I'm being a noisey prick about this, but I'm not going to stand for it.

I'm an avid poster in the Issues forum, it's my favourite section of the board, but I'm not playing by the rules in an arguement when Cthulhu is boarderline flaming. I'm getting sick of it, to be honest.

No, amigo. I'm down with you on this one. I don't like having my youth shoved in my face as flaw when, I think, it's more of a blessing than anything. I have a life ahead of me to make my choices and mistakes ("Get a roll of TP. I'm gonna write down all my mistakes [inside joke]") and I'd rather have the opportunity to learn than do what I'm told blindly. My folks taught me better than that.


Agreed, though it's kind of hard not to speak up when one's beliefs and person are being attacked.


Since when does not standing for someone else's bullsh*t make one a prick?


As am I dude and, I'm sure, as are a lot of folks. Maybe Cthulhu needs a dose of maturity as well.

Speaking of whom...


Hmm. Honesty, integrity, hard work, honor, humility, persistence, loyalty, humor, desire to seek knowledge, those are pretty important to me and my family. I think I'm set.


Hopefully in 20 years when I'm 39, my mind won't be that of a grizzled old coot who gets his kicks out of inulting people younger than him.

I'm sorry, isn't that EXACTLY what the colonists did to the British pre-revolution?

Couldn't let that one fly.

Excuse me, I never said anything about anyone's age. Or that due to anyone being "X" age they didn't understand this or that. I said that a lot of you have a lot yet to experience, be you 14 or 114 and that I'd like to talk to you again in 20 years because people's opinions and ideals change over time. Regardless of what age they are now. You ASSUMED I was suggesting that you are all young and inexperienced. Perhaps that ssumption on your part speaks louder than anything I might say in response to all this. The fact that you all read the same thing and all drew the same incorrect conclusion would tend to make it seem like you've got some kind of issue with your age that I didn't even bring up. Hmm...

I was and am simply saying that, what you believe right now will change. What *I* believe right now will change. Things and people change with time. We learn and grow over that time. Regardless of your current age. Yes, a lot of you do come across as immature and a little lacking in life experience. But I'm not faulting you for that in the slightest. I will however say that if you are a younger person you should try to spend a little more time listening and learning and a little less espousing your opinions which are probably recently formed based on little experience. Take that for what it's worth, you can hate it but you can't deny the truth of it. If you haven't been alive long enough to have the experience don't get ticked off because someone knows it, it just makes you seem even more immature.

For a group of people who claim to be so liberal and open minded, you are all showing that you're anything but. You're only open minded in-so-far as your own ideologies are concerned. Luckily you're all grouped into a clique here where the majority of you agree with one another on the major issues. And since that's the case you haven't really had to be all that open minded about much here. New ideas and views haven't really been presented to you and when they have you've had the benifit of a large group of like-minded individuals to back up everything you believe to be true. It doesn't make it true, it just makes you feel justified in believing it.

You claim you've been offended by things I've said. Interesting, because I've only said them because I was highly offended at many of the things that have been said here. The ultra-left-wing and anti-American attitude that oozes from this site is often more than can be beared. You simply don't even bother to consider that fact because you're surrounded by people who agree with you. You can say "All Americans are naive" and "Americans support an unjust war" and garbage like that and just get pat on the back for it. If anyone disagrees well then, because you are with a majority here you just dismiss that person as an asshole. Lets put it this way, you've all grown so accustomed to the smell of your own offal that you collectivly believe that your shit doesn't stink. Wrong!

You all also seem to have such hard edged opinions on things that, quite frankly, you've got no practical experience with. For instance, have any of you ever been to Iraq? Or even to the Middle East at all? How do you know what the heck is going on there or what's right and what's wrong from the comfort of your living rooms? I suggest you do more than read and watch tv and just believe whatever you want to pick and choose to believe. Do any of you actually personally know anyone who's lived under a Communist regeime? Under Saddam Hussein? If so, please, do tell me how much they enjoyed it, I'd be amazed to hear all about it. Are any of you practicing muslims? Do you KNOW any? How many of you have read the Koran from cover to cover? Do you know what it says or are you just quoting what someone else claims?

So, are your views and opinions valid? To a point. But not to the point where you deserve to be taken seriously for everything you say. Or to even be believed. A lot of what you say is rehashed comments you've heard elsewhere. Where are those among you who have first hand or even second hand knowledge to speak from? You Anarchists, what ANARCHY do you live in? Where is it? Tell me how wonderful it is to live there. If you aren't living there or haven't lived there then you're just speculating and guessing about what you THINK it MIGHT be like. Don't pretend to be an authority on the subject.

You Europeans, you stand up there on what you believe to be some kind of moral high ground and look down your noses at Americans and make ludicris claims about things we've done or are doing. Turn around and look behind you at your own country and its history and what IT'S doing right now and then come back on to your high horse and try to preech. No country is perfect and nobody has a right to talk down to another person or country when it comes to the bad things they do. Mata... Could I interest you into a trip to the Outback to show you some shadows that were blasted into the ground by nuclear testing done by your country? Maybe introduce you to some aboriginals who might like to tell you a thing or two about how wonderful England is? Or maybe take a trip to Africa and you can explain some of the things your country has done there. In the name of what? The "Crown"? A bloated egomaniacle figurehead with no real reason to exist other than to give your tabloids something to write about. National defense maybe? Oh, no, we wouldn't go there would we? England has never done anything bad to anyone in the name of national defense.

The same or worse can be said for all your countries, regardless of where you live or how much better you think you are than America. And for you Americans who are down on your own country, most of it is because you're spending too much time listening to the European propaganda machine. You think they don't have their motives for trying to make us look bad? Don't you believe it for a minute.

I could offer up tons of sources, lots of references, plenty of quotes and crap like that. But it's just that, quotes, sources, etc... What counts most is personal experience. So far I haven't heard any here and that coupled with all the strong OPINIONS is what makes me say "I'd like to talk to you in 20 years" because you DO sound young and inexperienced, you WILL have more experiences in your lives and they are GOING to change your opinions. Don't take my word for it, just go ahead and live and it will happen. That's life.

I'm not saying this from my vast years of experience either. I'm saying it as a middle aged man who knows full well that his own opinions will also change as I gain more experience in life. But I've had enough experiences to recognize that yes, opinions do change, your views do change, sometimes frequently. It's what life is, a big ol' learning experience and you just continue to mutate and morph with it. The sooner you recognize this and accept it the easier it will be for you to come to terms with those changes. If you continue to fight and argue your current viewpoints so strongly then when the time comes that you're face to face with something that obliterates your current beliefs it'll be that much harder to accept.

You don't need me to tell you this but, maybe for a few of you, this will stick in your heads and you'll realize at some point in the future "Hey, that idiot on matazone's forums wasn't so dumb after all". You can feel free to thank me quietly to yourself then.

You've been warned about this before. Tone down your attitude, and stop insulting people. -Commie

Thanks for telling me what I think... I always wondered......

oh and btw...





heh...
you appear to have contradicted your own argument... well done..

Show me one person who's claimed that their country is better than America, and you win a prize. Yes, we've criticised things the American government has done. So? We're not allowed to do that now? I've criticised the American government, I've criticised my own government, I've criticised France and Israel and Iraq and Iran and what exactly is your point? Mata never said "all Americans are naive", that's a misinterpretation on your part that he has already corrected.



Yes, I've been to the Middle East. Quite frankly, it scared me.

Yes, I know someone who came here from the People's Republic of China. He has the same extremely dim views of communism as I have.

Yes, a very close friend of mine is a practicing Muslim, and I've read parts of the Koran as well as doing a great deal of research into the religion - it's a hobby of mine. Muslims are actually the majority at my school.



Can't speak for Righteous, but I know that Juiceisgood spent some time in an anarchistic commune in the desert, and very much enjoyed it.

I am not "anti-American". I admire a great deal of things about America - the political foundations, the attitude and work ethic, in many ways the whole Weltanschauung. Probably about half of my close friends are American. That doesn't mean I can't say that I think your government has done something wrong. I think my government does things wrong too.

Cthulhu:

Where did you see me anywhere saying that Britain has not done these things?

Nowhere.

Where did the British royal family come into this argument?

Nowhere until you just brought it up.

At what point did you see me insult all Americans?

Nowhere. You've made rather a lot of blanket statements yourself. If you've not read it, then I refer you to this post.



At what point did you think that anti-European sentiment would help your case against what you perceive to be anti-Americanism? I've never raised historical cases of human rights abuses by either of our countries into this discussion because I don't see how they are relevant. This is (now) a discussion about whether you are justified in saying that everyone else on here is inexperienced and therefore wrong to disagree with you. The historical truth of the cruelty of every nation on this earth to it's own and other people has nothing to do with you saying that we are inexperienced, so frankly I have no idea what your point was with this anti-European rant.

Where did you see anyone say that all Americans support an unjust war?

Nowhere. There has been a lot of discussion over whether or not it was unjust, ie. morally right or wrong. It would be extremely daft to say that all Americans felt this way considering the number of Americans on here who objected to the recent Iraq war.

At what point did you see me say that Britain/Europe/anywhere is better (or worse) than America?

Nowhere. That really would be rather offensive. If you have interpreted things that I have written as saying that then maybe you should go back and re-read those posts.



I know two people who have worked in Iraq since the time of the defeat of Saddam Hussein. Their first-hand accounts tell me that it's going to hell in a speedboat. The news tells me the same. What's your point? Are you trying to tell me that my friends and the news reports that I see daily are all wrong? Really, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue for here.

British imperialism inflicted a lot of suffering on other nations (it has helped some too, there are several nations that currently would not exist without continued association with the UK). The British government has issued apologies to the nations that suffered. Let's not forget that the British imperialist age was well over a hundred years ago. I certainly don't want my country to start invading others again.

You say you don't like imperialism, neither do I. 'Imperialism: a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonisation, use of military force, or other means.'

Guess what just happened to Iraq?

That's why I would have fully supported the recent Iraq war if the UN was involved, because it's not imperialism if it's not a mechanism to extend a country's power. The purpose of the UN is to prevent that kind of thing. That's why I'm sick that my own government went to war without a UN mandate, and it's (one of the reasons) why I don't like George W Bush, because it wouldn't have happened without his decision to go to war without the UN.

Do I blame Americans for this? No, because I know that my government ignored me and the US government ignored the huge amount of Americans who did not support the war in Iraq. Do I blame 'America'? No, America is the people, not the government. Do I blame the government of America? Hell yes. Why would I place the blame anywhere else? Do I think that the war in Iraq was just? The aim was just, the method was not. Make of that what you will.

I don't recall that you have directly stated that you supported the war, but you have implied it. The war was an imperialist action. It was a way of extending US power into the Middle East. The British government came along for the ride, but it is apparently the American government that gets to make all the decisions about who gets into power in Iraq next. Maybe the British government really did believe that it was about liberating a country. Maybe they're just fools who can't hold on to power even when they've gone to war to get it. Who knows?

The point of this is that you feel that people disagreeing with you is a demonstration of their inexperience. I say you cannot say that, you have no idea what experience or knowledge we have. You are only saying that because we disagree with you, and that is very offensive.

Moving on:


So you said that we have a lot yet to experience but we 'ASSUMED' that you said we were inexperienced? Either you said it or you didn't.

Fair enough, you didn't explicitly state age as a factor, but when your message boils down to 'you'll think differently when you grow up' it's not surprising that people assumed that you were talking about the teenage members of this group (who I suspect make up the majority, I've not done any assessment of average age for a very long time).

You do say in your most recent post that you know you will hold different opinions in 20 years time, so why is it that you believe that it won't be you who is remembering this discussion and thinking how right we were? It is arrogant to suggest that everyone else will change their mind to agree with you.

You say that we have ideologies, yes, of course we do, and so do you. Ideologies make you assume that you are, by necessity, correct and that everyone else is deluded. If you know that you have an ideology too then surely you can recognise the possibility that maybe you are deluded (as well)? I'm happy to say that my opinions _may_ change in 20 years, but they might not. Maybe I will agree with you. That's what ideologies are about, they tell you that things are fundamentally true, but this is just a social construct (good ol' Marx). Your ideology is just as prone to change as ours is.

I can't see what could change my mind. I don't know how old you are, the older members on these forums are usually in their thirties. I know at least a few are older than that. If I work from mid-thirties, that gives you possibly eight more years of adult life than I have had. Having already had around that many myself, I can't really see anything looming in the next few that will suddenly make me change my mind. Please feel free to tell me what these life changing experiences might be, or even what they were, in case I missed them and remained a deluded liberal Like I say, I can't see what these experiences might be, but I'm not denying that they couldn't happen.

We are like-minded because we believe in freedom of speech with mutual respect. We are Christian, atheist, Wiccan, and many other faiths. We are Liberal, Conservative, Anarchist, and many other political affiliations. We are straight, gay, bi, and probably a few other things too. We are male, female, and intersex. We don't agree on everything, but we have a shared respect for the rights of others to believe what they do if they have the same respect for us. People are disagreeing with you for being disrespectful towards the opinions of others, they are not disagreeing with your right to believe what you want. This is not a forum for voicing disrespectful beliefs. If you do not understand Anarchism that's fine, but just because you do not understand it doesn't mean that others don't. Frankly, I don't think I really understand Anarchism either, I'm for democracy personally, but maybe that would change if I understood it better. Just because I don't understand it, it doesn't mean that it couldn't work as a system. Some very intelligent people have believed in it as a philosophy and I'm sure that they had good reasons for doing so.

Anyway, to summarise:

You believe that life will change our minds. Do you accept the possibility that you could come around to our way of thinking? Or even that we might all swap sides?

Don't be so patronising, especially to teenagers (you weren't explicitly so originally, although that we all read it as that could suggest that your language implied it. Your most recent post is explicit). It's very disrespectful. They have just as much right to discuss these issues as you. Don't tell them to be quiet and listen. You are welcome to discuss things on here, but a discussion means that you need to listen to others as well as they need to listen to you. If they hear you disregarding their views when you speak they will get annoyed and with good reason.

On the subject of paying attention: Stop saying that I have a grudge against America/ns. Stop saying this forum has a grudge against America/ns. We are not anti-American. We are pro-freedom. We believe in freedom of expression and mutual respect (I guess you're get the respect theme by now! ). That means that if we disagree with the way that a country is being run then we are free to say it. The people are not the government. The government is not the people. A person who dislikes American foreign policy is not anti-American, they want American policy to be better. That's what caring about a country is about, wanting it to change for the better. Patriotism is about loving your country, this means defending it against those that would harm it, especially if those people are supposed to be acting in your name. Considering the large amount of Americans on this forum, the questioning of the US government's choices shows you how patriotic they are.

You do not have the right to tell people that they are ignorant for not agreeing with your beliefs. If you want to do that then go somewhere else.

Your knowledge and understanding of the world is limited, just like everyone else's. Respect the rights of others to understand things in ways that you do not. If you are not offensive about their understanding of the world then they will respect yours. If you say that everyone who believes something different from you is definitely wrong then expect them to be annoyed. And expect to get banned.

Seriously, read through this. Does it make sense to you?

I can't really follow Mata up here, but just to stick in my 2 cents, not to offend or anything: I don't think you have to experience something to know about it and believe in it. I don't think experience is any part of the issue. (and I think there are some, at least a few, people in Cuba who think their government isn't terrible. I saw a news interview but I could be wrong.) I.e., you don't have to experience anarchy to believe in it or think it may work. After all, before democracy first came around, a lot of people were probably saying "Pah! That can't work!" just to the idea of democracy. And some were saying it would work. And I think it's done OK so far, but that's strictly my opinion. See? That's all.

Apparently you haven't been here long enough to witness the verbal bloodbaths we've had over issues. Many of us have very diverse opinions, views and beliefs. Some are anarchists; some are communists; some are democrats; some are republicans. Some folks are Christians; some are athiests; some are peagans; some are Jews. Some folks here use drugs. Some don't dig homosexual marriage. Some believe that business is evil while others don't. Some are sexually active. Some like burnt toast and some like anchovies on their pizzas. It's impossible to say that we all have the same views and believe the same things when historical evidence shows otherwise. One thing I know the vast majority of us don't like is some of the additude you've been radiating, be it intentional ar not. My dear man, I respect you as a person and your beliefs even if I don't agree with them. What I dislike is your burning sarcasm and your tendency to at least sound condecentious.


My bad then. Sorry. I was the asshole.


Once again, it's not what you believe or say. You can believe or say whatever you want so long as it's done in a nonaggressive manner. I've been guilty of getting a bit aggressive, particularly when it comes to politics. We here, once again, just don't dig agressiveness. Mata's said that 1,001 times before as have Commie and the rest of the mods. That's just not our bag and we'd like you to respect that.


I've had the opportunity, but anything involving the word "commune" scares me a little. And as for expertice, as I've said before, visit the cats at Strike The Root. They're experts on anarcho-capitalism, which is my personal flavor of anarchy.


I'm an American and no one's told me I'm naive because of it. No one's told me I support an unjust war. See, that's why I'm careful with my ters. I don't say "we" or "they," but rather "the US government (or the Man depending on the mood I'm in)" and "the civillians in Iraq."


Okay, this statement pisses me off more than anything you've said simply because you're directly attacking the family and lumping everyone (myself included apparently) into an unjust category. If you want to take me for example, I've had the minority opinon on many, many, many occasions. I'm pro-choice, anti-gun control, anti-democracy, pro-anarchy, pro-drug legalization and I fly the Confederate flag. I highly doubt there's even one person here with my beliefs, however I've been neither ostricized nor condemned for my beliefs. According to you, I should be based on what you believe the board, my family and my friends to be. Look, I know you believe this, but please look at the evidence.


Do you? Do you? Are you? Do you? Have you? Do you? Are you?