Recently my mum picked up "Eats Shoots and Leaves", a best-selling book about grammar. While I was always reluctant to shop at stores with missing apostrophes and misspelled words, reading through the book made my "inner stickler" resurface. And that started me wondering. What's happened to English?

Not to take crap shots at fellow forumites, but take a look around. Many people don't bother to apply basic rules of punctuation and capitalisation. Spelling has slipped back to a Mediaeval looseness. Elipsi are used willy-nilly (that's "..." for those of you who doesn't know or care what an ellipsis is), when they are technically only supposed to be used to indicate omitted text. It's does not indicate a possessive "it"! What have plurals done to deserve arbitrary apostrophes, when a simple "s" works just fine? Ga!

Still, to each their own. How you write is your own business. What I am trying to point out is the general state of things--if it were not acceptable for English usage to be so sloppy, you wouldn't see it so often. I have seen German menus were some patron went through with a pen and changed the mistakes. But not in English-speaking lands. What are these "potatos" you want me to order?

So, what do you think? Who is to blame? Is it the result of email and instant messaging? Societal laziness? Have school systems failed our generation? Is it part of the natural evolution of the language, just as the transition from thee to you was, or is it butchery? I am an avid reader and writer, and it pains me to see this happening to English, but that's not true for everyone. Should it acceptable, and why? Or should steps be taken to rectify this growing trend?

For the sake of this thread, I shall write correctly.
Really, I think it's all to do with the speed at which people need to type. If you've got a lot of things to do, a lot of people to talk to...you're not going to type with capitals and correct punctuation, spelling, grammar and the like. That's partially the reason for the whole "2day i cn speek v.quick cz im nt typin prop." way of writing. I also apologise there if the " was in the wrong place.

Which leads me nicely onto my next point. Not everyone knows how to use punctuation correctly past the basics. GCSE A in English and i'll be damned if I do!

And finally, some people just can't be bothered, and all respect to them

I guess, if it was a serious issue, we could all try. But how many people could adhere to it full time? No good beating ourselves up about it, methinks.

(and now, back to me normal way of typing. ahhh, so much better )

I agree, speed is an issue. I can be quite lazy myself sometimes. Abbreviations and shorthand have always been used when there's no time for proper English. The problem is, "2day i cn speek " is starting to creep into "proper" English. "IM speech" has its place, but a quick read through some of the essays my mum's students writes is gruesome. So, I guess the question is, how do you make the distinction between where sloppy English is acceptable and where it isn't?

Heh...(elipsis)

That's an interesting point you bring up. I'll be the first to admit that I use elipsi profusely, but other than that, I do try to keep my Engrish tidy. Espescially online (fragment.)

I am often disgusted by the online speech - espescially when it carries over into teenage writing. If I had a nickel for every time I corrected a paper that had "b/c" or something of the sort on it, I'd have about ten bucks. At least. (fragment again!)

But that is the way that teenagers are. (fragment AGAIN) I blame the media, but then again I blame the media on a lot of stuff.

Damn soulless bastards at MTV. I hate them so much.

I'll continue to use ellipses (the CORRECT plural of ellipse) as I please, seeing as how this



indicates that it can be used to indicate a pause in a phrase. As well, it can indicate, in speech, that a person is trailing off...

So there!

And not to sound like a snarky bastage, but the title of this thread should be "Speaking Well" and in



I think you meant to use the term "where."

Just, as I say, to be a snarky bastage. No offence meant, really.

Actually, I think the real origin of txt speak is in many ways thanks to the mobile phone generation, not really ignorance, but out of necessity, a text message (or SMS) was until fairly recently limited to a little over 100 character (including spaces), so while it is easier to miss out the odd letter its also more economical. The lack of capital letters at the beginning of sentences it probably thanks to to Microsoft, notice it automatically capitalises lone I's and corrects minor spelling errors, any wonder people are becoming lazy, and lets face it, the shift key is rather a stretch for some.

I personally tend to type as I would speak when I'm online, though, when it comes to things like essays and reports for university, I do make an effort, though not much, spellchecker does the lion share of the work.

Not that it really bothers me, or matters, if we can bastardise the pronounciations of words, why not f*ck up the spelling too?

In fact, grammar nazi's piss me off, give off a real "Holier than thou" vibe.

Like SPS, I do tend to write as I would speak when I'm online.

However, capitilaising letters and putting punctuation into sentances is something that comes naturally to me. I don't always get my grammar right, but the thought is there.

I think it's mainly due to the fact that I have to write a lot of letters to Clients at work, therefore, it just carries over to everything else that I type.

I'm down with Snugs and SPS. Folks who have read what I wrote on Matazone said that I write the same way I speak. A lot of folks who've read my stories etc. have told me that I'm good at mimicing folks' vernacular and what-not and I get all my practice here. I dunno. I just like typing the way I speak. I think it makes it more personal.

But anyhow, before I went to psychology, I wanted to major in English so I could learn 100% proper English and it annoys me sometimes when I hear others and myself speak out of even one small rule. I go off when I read stuff, like "Mens Room." That makes no God damn sense. Any kind of crap like that gets to me.

EH, well. I can deal with it.

Excellent book, really. I read it too. I can go past it online (except for text speak and other such gross assassinations of the language) but in formal writing - that's me with the red pen scrawling all over the paper. One of the careers I may want to go into is EDITING. Trust me, even as I'm typing this my inner stickler is going "'You're using that comma wrong!'"

I seriously hope Speaking Good was a play on words WELL!

Tigersong,

I tried to resist it, but I have to nitpick. Sorry *_*

Ellipses can be used to indicate a pause or trailing off, but in formal written english, they shouldn't be used nearly as often as they are used on the web (and I am guilty of this 100 times over). Usually, you only use ellipses for indicated omitted words.

That aside, there is a significant lack of proper english these days. I attribute it to the web, mostly. Instant Messenger programs, emails, and more recently, blogs are places where people can and often do ignore grammar and spelling, and it's only a matter of time before that bleeds over into non-Internet writing.

Personally, the only way I can think of to "stop" this is to just use proper grammar and spelling all the time. Just type correctly in IMs, emails, blogs, message boards, and the like. That's what I try to do. I don't always succeed, especially if I'm in a hurry, but it has helped.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

David Carlson

ermmm ... With all due respect, I'm not sure what that sentence means. The structure is a little too sloppy for me to be sure. It seems to imply that what we type on here is to be considered formal written English (a word I understand is supposed to be capitalised). Well I disagree. What we do right here is actually closer to spoken English, an entirely different beast ...

Oh, and should be "those of you who don't know" or better still, in formal written Enlgish, "those of you who do not know" ...

Grammar nazis need to be careful with their grammar, eh?


(edited to add civility)

Be civil, guys. We're just talking about the English language here.

People often get their panties in a knot over this sort of thing. My ex-girlfriend used to go off on long tangents whenever I'd say the word "quotes" to mean "quotations." Just her thing, I guess. *shrugs*

But I agree with what Pab said. What we are writing here is informal English, very close to speech. So, if we use ellipses frequently, it's to indicate something about the speech pattern we're trying to express.

Actually, the increasingly frequent (mis)use of ellipses may have something to do with manga. And I quote:

..................................................................................
..................................................................................
..................................................................................
..................................................................................
......................................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*grin*

Personally, I use ellipses frequently in my more formal (fictional) writing as well, especially in dialogue. See, I wouldn't use them in a formal essay or anything, but since people do use frequent pauses in their speech, and the only real way to indicate it is with ellipses, I say, go for it.

Whoops. I thought this was a discussion on formal english. My apologies. Ignore my last post.

Pab,

In my defense, I never claimed to be a grammar Nazi ^_~ In fact, I usually don't care about grammar and punctuation, as long as I can figure out what someone's saying.

And I never said I succeeded in keeping my english correct.

"Personally, I use ellipses frequently in my more formal (fictional) writing as well, especially in dialogue. See, I wouldn't use them in a formal essay or anything, but since people do use frequent pauses in their speech, and the only real way to indicate it is with ellipses, I say, go for it. "

You can also use the long dash. In fact, my creative writing instructor was really strict about this. He would go through our papers and mark out every ellipses, and replace them with "--". I can't recreate them here; they're dashes twice as long as a "-".

For example:

"Hey, what the hell is th--" And with that, the monster consumed Joe in a bloody spectacle that left body parts strewn about the room. Curiously, Joe's lower-left ventricle survived the carnage perfectly intact.

Sadly, my instructor even gave a 15 minute lecture on using dashes instead of ellipses.

Sometimes, that man scared me.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

David Carlson

This is true, dashes CAN be used like that, however...

They're basically equivalent, and generally accepted by most writers around the world as acceptable, to use either in many different cases. If you were quoting something and you wanted to leave out the middle bit, for example:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth . . . Come quickly, Lord Jesus. Amen."

Then you'd have to use ellipses. However, in this case:

"For God's sake, Jerry, what the hell..." Jim was cut off by the massive Grammar Nazi's flag fluttering in the wind.

The ellipses are perfectly acceptable. All you're arguing over is a silly stylistic difference between writers, in my not so humble opinion.

Out of curiosity,

Am I the only one who hates the term Grammar Nazi. It just seems to easy to dismiss someone else's idea by labeling them as a nazi...

Or maybe the nazi label is just used far, far too often for my tastes.

Or maybe I'm just rambling nonsense.

Anyways, I wasn't arguing, or suggesting that you were wrong. At least, I didn't mean to. I was simply stating that there was an alternative. As I said in my far earlier post, I really don't care.

And then I related that little bit about my Creative Writing instructor. I thought it was funny. Oh well. Guess it wasn't.

[THERE! See, if I were a grammar nazi, my head would have exploded upon making that incomplete sentence! ^_~]

Sincerely and Respectfully,

David Carlson
Just trying to be a little funny...

Not saying you were a Grammar Nazi. *shrugs* I just have NO problem with ellipses, and I quite like the look of them. Agreed, perhaps they are overused some.

On dashes and ellipses: I would consider a dash to indicate a sharp cut-off, as in your example: "Hey, what the hell is th--". An ellipses would signify a pause longer than a comma, where no other punctuation applies:
"Well...I suppose I could let you in..."

On "proper English" (the correct term is Standard English ) I'd advise people to take an interpretivist rather than a prescriptivist viewpoint. Remember that language changes all the time. A writer from a century or two ago would be shocked at my grammar; why aren't I capitalising nouns?



Hmm. If we were in a chat room, or talking over an IM program, I'd concede the point, but I myself consider message boards to come under the umbrella of written English. I don't really see the relevance, though, since the same rules of grammar apply with both, and when one writes down spoken English, one uses the same punctuation rules.

Forum posts are not high literature, they are textual conversation. If it's understandable, I'm not bothered, if people pick me up on grammar and spelling, they slide a little in my view of them. Forums are not contributing to the destruction of the English language anymore than peeing on a tree is contributing to its growth. I am worried about the slide of the English language, but forums are not the place for high standards in such. People talk in a similar manner to how they type, sometimes posts are illegible, then I complain, but if you understood, and you didn't have to spend five minutes decoding it, I don't see how anyone has a right to complain.

I think the term grammar nazi came up because some people are, in fact, quite facsistic in their dealings with those who don't care quite enough to be extremely careful with their typing. I think its appropriate sometimes, although the term is just as overused as the great and wonderful Three Dots Of Doom.

Does anyone know what the deal is with brackets and other punctuation?

I tend to do logical bracketing: (This is some random text).
Instead of what im told is correct: (This is some more random text.)

(Note the full stop positions. Also note how im using the 'correct' method here because this entire sentence is bracketed.)

Although it depends a lot on where the brackets start (the 'correct' way would look better if the entire sentence is bracketed, but otherwise I would use logical style).

I think this is something to do with my over geekness and the way I do far too much programming, so I take the bracketing style from programming. Help! What is the correct way to do my punctuation in/after brackets?

I picked up the term 'Grammar Nazi' on here, mostly from those two most excellent fellows, Commie and Polocrunch, who are card carrying Grammar Nazis of the first order. I consider it to be descriptive enough, because it expresses that level of strictness and fanaticism on the subject that I am sure both would agree with. It's not a put down. It's just a good description. So no worries, eh ...

I want to defend my ellipses, however. I'm sure I overuse them, but I also overuse the word 'it' and no GN has yet gotten around to campaigning against that one. We used to be told that the word 'it' should be avoided as much as possible. *sounds of whips cracking* Abbreviations such as "he's" instead of "he is" were strictly for the spoken word and should never appear on paper *thwack of cane against blackboard*. Proper nouns ver all to be capitalised. You must neffer NEFFER split ein infinitif und zo on und zo on ...

*shakes head to dispel inner voices*

All of that is way 'out the window' on here. But from time to time a GN (bless'em) will pick up upon a figure of type that they feel they are seeing too much of, and start throwing books at people. I mean ya know ... fair enough, like .. but on here I'm not a representative of any particular school of conjugation or punctuation etiquette ... I just type like I speak, as much as is possible, because the nature of a place like this is to rub shoulders and meet people, just as if we were all standing in the same room talking to each other. Obviously the typed word lacks all forms of body language and facial expression, as well as volume, pitch, intonation, regional accents (not grammar) and the like ... When Leo types the word 'summat' he doesn't give a monkeys about the grammar, he's just typing like he would say it, as this is distinctively Leo. Well, so do I.

I live in permanent contact with 5 languages, 4 of which I know well enough to be a grammar nazi about if I felt like it, but believe me, one gets to a point, with the whole general mish-mash of cultures, people, accents, rules and written regulations, that one would rather everybody would just go away for 15 minutes and have a spliff or something, and come back and just communicate, which would be way more fun, let's face it... Also, to see fanatical laying down of rules spread over so many languages is really quite commical, because people vary immensly from one culture to another, even if they do share the language, and punctuation and the like are wildly reinterpereted by every generation that comes along, and can be visciously enforced and contradicted in astonishing ways by people who's only difference is that they live 200km apart ... How are commas to be used? Well don't ask me mate, cos I can reach 50 people from right here who would tare eachothers throats out to enforce their own vision on the subject, and they're almost definitely all wrong.

The ellipse is one of the tools I use to lay out my spoken text on these pages. It helps to reflect how I speak, and to a point how I think, and I'm using it wether it rocks everybodies boat or not. I don't call it an ellipse, though. I call'em '3 dots', cos that's what they feel like when I'm stabbing the keyboard to get at them. If I felt like it, I'd resort to all of the tools at my disposal, that I might ExPresS myself to absolute fullest ... Luckily, it's too much hard work. So I use ellipses, abbreviations, regional ways of saying things, and streotyped accents and turns of phrase so that my message may get across in the most holistically entertaining, but above all, expressive way I can be assed to come up with. I enjoy the fact that others do the same.

As far as my vast tracts of experience can make out, that that is 'correct' is based on:

- the main rules and /or guidelines
- the teachers you had
- the area you live in
- your hang-ups on class, whereby 'tight grammar'='expensive school', and so you are vocal about it


Not that I dont agree that there's some real crappy grammar out there ... Ohboyhowdy is there ever ...

I only got a B in GCSE English, and I don't remember being taught anything about grammar since primary school, (which there is no chance of me remembering at all) so I blame education! However, I don't really see what's wrong with making a few mistakes, as long as people understand what you mean...

*hides from grammar nazis*

splitting an infinitive is a latin grammer law... Not strictly an english one...

I also view a forum as spoken english... rather then written...

Case in point: the use of single and double quotation marks in Britain vs. North America. Personally, the British use makes more logical sense to me, but the North American way "looks right."



Down with comma splices! That's really my only major grammatical hangup.

And down with the Oxford comma! Which is this: "The moderators are Mata, Fuzzy, Commie, Missy, LoLo, Ravein, Syuu, Jonman, Leo, and Saucy Tara." It is a vile, vile thing, and must be eliminated! Zer Reich vill last ten zousand years! Und so weiter, und so weiter.

I don't know about that. If you're taking the time to write in the forum, you may as well do it right. I mean, there's a difference between a forum and a chat, which is in the forum you have a chance to slow down and think about what you're writing. If you don't use proper grammar and English, it just says to me that you were too lazy to think about it. I personally think it's harded to write poorly, just because I speak well in my head and it translates into what I type.

In a forum, you may as well make yourself sound the least bit intelligent, and you can start by typing correctly. I value someone's opinon more if they took the time to think about what they were writing, rather than make stupid spelling and grammar errors. The errors distract me from the point they're making.

And Commie, I agree, I despise that comma rule.

As a teacher of engilsh I must say that although I am fine with the whole typing on forums thing and ignoring of grammar but I do get extremely pissed off with students using the @ symbol in essays and btw and so on.

I try to write resonably well on forums, but when using MSN or something, I see no point in using full stops or capital letters. It's only most likely one sentence, not worthy of my time. I can't stand for philistines writing things like "u cnt du tht, its ilegl th cps wil gt u!!11" or before i go i wnt 2 sa somting 2 som1". It's barely read-able.

Writing like that takes more time for me. It's easier just to type real words. Beside that, when you have to write things for school (like I'm supposed to be doing right now... blah ) you don't get lazy or mess up. It was a battle for me to learn to capitalize my I's, because I used to be the jerk off who was too lazy to hit the shift button. But I think you're better off if you type well everywhere you are.


PS, will someone set me straight on the proper use of beside and besides? I mess them up constantly, and am ashamed to say I don't know the difference.

Hm. Mein Gott. (Me? A grammar Nazi? Nein...) I never expected the humble ellipsis could be the source of so much controversy. Heh. Yes, I concede, it has come to mean a pause: language evolution, mayhap? It just irks me when it's...overused...to indicate...thought...or something...but I'll admit to using it that way all the time. Really, I'm not trying to nitpick; I'm commenting on the general state of things, which I acknowledge I am a part of, if only because my school system failed me--I am sadly bereft of much background in grammar.

And yes, yes, yes, 'Speaking Good' was meant to be a joke. Cheers to you for catching that...I was almost afraid no-one would. Eugh. It makes my skin crawl when people mix up 'good' and 'well', and 'bad' and 'badly'. Adjectives and adverbs have fallen into a sorry state. *grin*

acid_rain: I ran to look this up for you in my bevy of grammar books, and this is what I found. And I quote: 'Beside means "by the side of." Besides means "in addition to." Besides as an adverb means "moreover." ex: We picnicked beside the river. Besides sandwiches, we brought fruit. It was too cold to swim; besides, we had no sunscreen.'

Sadly, not every language is as versatile as German. Schade...

Just noticed your post, Pab. Thanks for catching that. ^^ I think I was trying to write "anyone who..." and "those of you..." and ended up mixing up the two. I do that a lot. It's my greatest grammatical downfall. Cheers.


Not that German doesn't have its moments...but English is much more annoying. Sour, sore; Four, for. Huh? The biggest problem facing *grin* grammar nazis is that English is such a pointessly complex language. The spellings don't always make sense and there are exceptions to the exceptions when it comes to sentence structure. It's a difficult language to learn. Still, that doesn't mean people shouldn't try. Being able to communicate effectively is a vital skill, and the degredation I see in the writing quality of to-day's youth is sorry. I don't just mean on the internet; I mean in actual writing assignments. Flipping through essays, I found that many university students can't even properly distinguish between a question and a statement. And that worries me.

Then I can easily get to the top of the class!

But I'm still sickened by it.

Yay! I caught something.

/mostly spam

If ol' Bill Bryson is anyone to go by, it seems the main problem with the English language is that it stems from a large amount of very different languages, and when they finally got round to trying to give it some form of official structure the idiots chose latin as the base. There is still no real, established ineffable grammar as such ... just a collection of opinions and more or less widely tolerated starting points.

In French and Spanish the structure is way more rigid, and can be learnt and recited and is more or less fool proof. It is also mind numbingly dull (the grammar, not the language) and I think it is partly responsable for not allowing humour to develop like it has in English speaking countries ...

It's true that some things are completely subjective and there's no rule. Like when a word already ending in s is possessive; is it "Bill Gates' company" or "Bill Gates's company"? I prefer the former, but the latter is equally correct so long as a text is consistent.

*sharp intake of breath*

oooh, well ... dunno about that one, commie ... I'd think "Bill Gates's company" is necessarily wrong, because the apostrophe here is supposed to replace a letter, and in that example its just trying to force a phonetic bounce, thus artificially bolting on that extra syllable, like writing "Bill Gateses company" ... "Bill Gates' company" is a format that exists, for sure, and cannot exist in any other circumstance (the possessive, I mean, not talking about Bill) so by elimination I'd say the first is definately it, and the second is wishful thinking. Of course, if we all just called him "Billy the B@stard" we wouldn't have this problem

Eats, Shoots & Leaves: page 55.

Current guides to punctuation state that with modern names ending in "s" (including biblical names, and any foreign name with an unprounounced final "s"), the "s" is required after the apostrophe [...] With names from the ancient world, it is not [...] If the name ends in an "iz" sound, an exception is made [...] And an exception is always made for Jesus [...] Having said that there are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter [...]

Reaching into the murky depths that is my past learnings from school, I was taught that, while it is correct to use "s's" in grammar rules when referring to an object belonging to a person whose name ends normally with an "s", the grammar rules are not strictly adhered to when it comes to readability.

Simple test: Which is easier on the eye? Jesus's or Jesus'

It's a simple grammar tweak which I believe is used in some other languages too. For example, the French for "I have" is "J'ai", but if we were to follow the rules strictly then it would be "Je ai", which looks wrong.

That's the problem with a language that is a mish-mash of several other languages, it's nigh on impossible to maintain any rules when they have to fit a mongrel language such as English is.

Anyway, the whole "apostrophe s" thing is sheer laziness. Most other languages would say "The apostles of Jesus" and not "Jesus' apostles".

An important thing to remember is that things change. Language is constantly fluid, English notably so, and there is no static set of rules - not even for spelling. Is it "judgment" or "judgement"? I prefer the former, that 'e' looks superfluous to my eye (and the Microsoft Word spellchecker agrees with me, which means that's probably the form which will win out).

Don't microsoft spell checkers work on U.S. English as default though? I thought the former was American, and the latter English.

The grammar that I was taught stated that if the noun ending in an s were singular, possesive case requires 's. An example from the classical singing world is "Brother James's Air." Everyone pronounces the title of this piece as "Brother Jameses Air," not "Brother James Air."

So, it's the boys' bathroom, because boys is plural. But it's Brother James's Air because James is singular. The teachers' room, plural. The witness's testimony, singular.

And the comma must be used before the and! It is the only correct, beautiful, proper, and normal way to write lists! Bah at you all!

Nein. Gates's would be more correct, because Gates is not a plural noun. (See my above argument). It's not replace a letter, it's just indicating proper possession.

The Alternative Grammar Nazi Strikes Again!

Strictly speaking I'm slipping off topic here, but spelling has been mentioned, and it's an interesting bit of doggerel.

The major reason for the stranger spellings in English comes from a cost cutting excercise. When the first mass produced English dictionary was to be printed a company in Holland was chosen for it's favourable prices. All well and good, but their typesetters decided to correct what they considered to be spelling mistakes, and that, ladies and gentlemen, is why we now write yacht rather than the originally planned (and vastly more simple) yot.

This post brought to you by Fount O' Useless Knowledge Industries PLC.

I find that as long as it is possible to clearly communicate with each other, language has done its job.

Oh Fuzzy...oh Fuzzy. Say it ain't so! Every time that happens, I feel myself stabbed! The same thing just happened only a minute ago.



- Lynne Truss

Grah! I did slip up there didn't I? At times I can be a little over eager when it comes to possesives. I also tend to worry that I go slightly bonkers with my commas, but I do so love using them for their parenthesising functions.

Edit: In partial defence I have been forced to combat the oppressive heat in my room by spending a number of hours sucking back nice cold beers

Yes, in the very thread about it, you messed up.

So you think slight inebriation makes up for punctuating correctly?

But commas can be confusing - for example, my statement up there. "Yes" is used as an introductory element, but I'm confused. "In the very thread about it" seems to be an introductory element too. And it's not used in a parenthesizing way. So, hurrah for the ellipsis and dashes!

Which lookes better - "Yes, in the very thread about it...you messed up." or "Yes, in the very thread about it - you messed up."

A semicolon would just be weird as well as probably grammatically incorrect, but maybe a colon would do.

"Yes, in the very thread about it: you messed up."

No, no colon.

See?

Yes, I actually do this all the time in my head. Usually I just go back and change the sentence.

In the case of your first sentence I prefer it the way it is. I'd also tend to see that as parenthesis, because were the portion enclosed in commas to be removed the sentence would still make sense. The portion between the commas just adds information to the statement.

Most of my grammar and punctuation comes from the books I've read due to the unfortunate fact that at school I was far too lazy to do homework, and consequentially I was dropped over the years from the top set for English to classes where their main aim was to prevent the resident potato heads from eating their jumbo pencils.

Unfortunately even that didn't save me from being forced to read horrible poetry by Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon.

Argh! Wifred Owen caused me torture as well, somehow they expect us to write an essay about a poem thats 3 times as long as the poem itself.

to prolong fuzzys input of tangential trivia:

In french, where there are such words as "eau", "bateau" and "beauté" etc ... the reason they use 3 letters for one _simple_ vowel sound is that the first real professional writers were the monks, and they charged by the letter. In a relatively short time, they managed to up their profits by around 20% just by bullshitting the vowel sounds ... You can tell they were motivated ...