A question came into my mind when reading something in the thread about the USOC.



Can someone who is a little more patriotic than myself just clarify for me? One of the things many people do that I have never understood and which seems to be a rather odd concept is that of worshipping and respecting flags. I'm not targetting the Americans specifically about this, as the British do it just as much. I just do not understand why people feel that flags themselves (to take from the statement) 'deserve respect'. I realise that it is the symbol of the country, but sometimes i feel as if this idea is taking patriotism too far.
I saw a headline in a newspaper a while ago, about someone in the British government proposing to make the burning of the British flag illegal. In my opinion, this is an entirely pointless action. It's not as if people are burning the country. It could be taken as an insult as well, but in that case, should saying bad things about Britain be made illegal too? Surely politicians have better things to do with their time?

So, anyway, I don't get why this is of importance to some people. Could someone tell me? Please?

I never quite got that either. In the States, when they play the National Anthem before sports games and everyone puts their hand over their hearts and removes their hats and faces the flag in solemn reverence... wow. I always feel like an outsider in the midst of some sort of cult when that happens. I appreciate America, I appreciate the freedoms this country was founded on that I enjoy daily... but I still couldn't tell you what idolizing a flag has to do with it.

Also, how in America, the flag isn't supposed to touch the ground... that's something they taught me in the Girl Scouts. Don't let the flag touch the ground, they told us when we were on ceremony duties. Otherwise, the flag has to be destroyed. My reaction... WTF?

I think it does come down to what you said - patriotism. Which I guess some people are just more inclined towards than others. It's obviously not something I value too greatly, but I respect that it does mean something to others, although I can't understand it.

I'm sorry, but flags are overrated. There are a bunch of laws in the States regarding the care of a piece of cloth and it sickens me. It's not the flag; it's what it stands for. I refuse to do the pledge of allegence because 1) I refuse to be allegent to something I don't believe in and 2) this nice little verse from Exodus chapter 20 reads, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the formof anything that is in Heaven above, or that is on the Earth beneath or in the water under the Earth." You may not follow these philosophies, but I sure do.

The only flags I respect are the Confederate battle flag ("the stars and bars") and the Revolutionary "Don't Tread On Me" flag. Those two represent freedom a lot more than Old Glory or whatever they call the US flag. I want to hang one of them on my wall, but I'm not sure which.

I read an article where someone wanted to change the Union Jack so that it included black in the field, thus making it impossible for folks to say, "There's no black in the Union Jack!" That's just goofy.

Why those two flags in particular? What makes them different than other flags?

Patriotism...I'm patriotic in that I quite like my country. As countries go it's liberal, democratic, pretty progressive, I can do pretty much whatever I want within reason without the government getting all up in my face...all in all, a nice country to live in. If I feel somebody is challenging my country on those grounds, I'll defend it.

That said, I do not agree with "my country right or wrong". I don't support my country's occupation of Iraq, or various other of its domestic and economic policies. When my country is doing something I think is wrong, I consider it my patriotic duty as a citizen to oppose it; if I allowed it without opposition, I would be doing my country a disservice.

The flag - either the Union Jack or St. George's Cross - doesn't really have any meaning for me. I don't care if people wave it about, I don't care if they burn it either (though that hasn't caught on too much in Britain, at least to my knowledge). The only exception to this is that I get quite annoyed that the racists and fascists - by which I mean the BNP - have usurped the flag, and now it's become associated with them.

What exactly are these rules, and what is the pledge of allegiance? I know it is an American thing, but I never found out when it is said and why and things like that.

To me Flags are important they define the Colours of your country, home and Regiment.

Some links and quotes that may help.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/army...1878maiwand.htm

From the Battle of Maiwand-



More recent-

http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1...r/flag/1bf.html



Where as i realise these quotes/links are not really about burning the flag, i'm trying to point out that, the nature of the flag goes way back into history and when your serve your nation in the Military the sense/nature of the flag changes it's meaning to you. Where as i don't care if someone burns the flag itself, they are free to do as they choose it's not something i would ever indulge in myself, not even to burn an Enemy's flag.

The Confederate battle flag was flown by Confederate soldiers as whey went into battle to fight for freedom and defend their rights against the Union. If I lived during the American Civil War, I'd fight for the CSA based on their ideals of liberation from the Union. Honestly, if I lived during that era, I'd fight for the CSA.

"Don't Tread On Me," to me at least, shows one's steadfastness (if it ain't a word, it is now) in standing against tyranny. It doesn't spark the same emotions with me (maybe that's because I'm a southerner) but they both stand for the same ideal, more-or-less.

On the other hand, the US flag represents tyranny and selling out of morals. Back in the day, things were kosher, but from the American Civil War foreward, the country's gone to hell. My buddy Big Adam is a little younger than me but he knows more about the Civil War than some university professors I've talked to. His dad's a major historian too (he's got a Ph.D. in American history but he specializes in the Civil War era) and we all agree that the country's sold out. After the Civil War, the federal government has swallowed up states' rights which the CSA was fighting for (not slavery). Thus, based on my loyalty to Confederate ideals and my love of freedom, I refuse to recognize the US flag.

Other countries are kosher I guess, only because they have nothing to do with me.

The difference with a flag is that, in and of itself, it is worthless. That million-dollar lottery ticket can be traded in for a million dollars, but the flag can't be traded in for anything. Losing the flag won't mean losing any of your freedom, but losing that ticket would be a severe monetary loss.

I've got to point out that it wouldnt mean a money loss, simply the loss of a large money gain. But i do agree with Polo in that that metaphor doesn't really represent the 'respect' of flags very well. I know that the flag represents a nation, and to salute your nation, you may salute your flag. What i was getting at was said by Righteous, about things such as rules regarding the treatment of flags.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands-- one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Hmm. Not overly fond of the Pledge of Allegiance, myself. Why am I equating my honor with respect of a flag?

And the rules regarding the treatment of the American flag are quite extensive. I can't remember all the etiquette, but I know some. It can't ever touch the ground. When you take it down, it has to be folded in a very specific way-- usually by two people-- until it's bundled into a triangle, only the blue field of stars showing on the outside. When you raise a flag, you do do it as quickly as possible and when you lower it, you do it as slowly as possible. When a flag becomes old and worn, it's to be destroyed in a very specific fashion: you cut it into strips along the lines of the stripes and, one by one, burn them in a special ceremony. That's all I can remember at the moment... my dad's a flag protocol Nazi.

Anyway, it's all ridiculous, in my opinion.

But that's the thing if a Regiment/squard captured an emeny flag way back they could ransom the colours. So Flags were worth money once, hence maybe getting back to the real point of this thread, to destroy a flag was stupid as you could actually ransom it.

Polocrunch (and others),

And yet, what is the money but a collection of symbols that represent a tradable substance? A dollar bill in itself is worthless. It's a piece of paper. A gold bar is worthless. It's a piece of metal. However, we give these objects a symbolic value, based upon qualities we like. Tradability, beauty, rarity.

It's the same with a flag. A flag in and of itself is nothing. It's just a piece of cloth. However, WE (we as in general humanity) ascribe to said flag values that we see as important to or intrinsic of our country: freedom, democracy, patriotism, etc.

When someone salutes a flag, or says the Pledge of Alliegance, they aren't actually saluting or worshiping the flag itself. Rather, they're pledging themselves to or saluting the VALUES that flag represents.

Basically, look at it this way. Instead of people having to rack their minds, trying to explain away abstract concepts such as freedom, democracy, and morality, they point to a physical object, devoid of any intrinsic value, and say "THAT is what freedom 'is'. THAT is what morality 'is'." Or rather, that is what we will use to represent morality, to represent freedom, to represent whatever values our country has.

It's the same thing with the cross. Christians don't actually worship the cross itself. It's a piece of friggin' wood, a method of Roman execution, and a cruel one at that. Rather, the cross represents the values and principles Christians expouse. It's how they center themselves, how they focus their mind on their religion.

They're physical objects representing nonphysical ideas, ideas that cannot be fully communicated.

Now, it's inevitable that the physical object used as a symbol gains some special properties of its own. While people don't necessarily worship the cross, they still hold the cross in high esteem. People don't actually pledge TO the flag, but they still hold the flag in high esteem. Why?

I don't know enough about cognitive science or anthropology to be able to explain this scientifically, but I can offer a more philosophical explanation that might help.

How many of you have lost parents, relatives, pets, or whatnot? Do you have something of theirs? An heirloom, an object that they used to own that you now own? I have my grandmother's wallet and deck of very large playing cards. Those physical objects would have no meaning to me if she were still alive. However, because she's dead, those objects gain meaning. To me, they're objects she touched, objects she used in her daily life, and since I loved her, those objects gain meaning as symbols of her.

Well, it's the same with flags. No one can hug freedom, no one can kiss democracy, no one can hold morality in their hand. So in the same way that my grandmother's belongings gained meaning for me--I loved her, but can no longer see her, so I settle with remembering her through the objects--the flag gains meaning for those who love or hold in high esteem the morals of their country. They can't hold those values and principles, now or forever, so they have to make do with a representation.

Now, before I go on, I'm not saying that people who don't see flags as something more than pieces of cloth don't love their country. Not at all. I'm simply trying to describe why some of the people who love their country and it's values love their flag.

Now, what would happen if someone burned my grandmother's deck of cards that I have? Or her wallet? I'd be upset. Hell, I'd be furious. Those are my last link to the person that was my grandmother. They're my way of remembering instantly the little things about her, the things we did together, and so on, and so forth.

It's the same with the flag. Those people who have transfered some of that value from the idea to the flag are going to be damn angry at the person that burns the flag. It's become their last link to those values, the physical representation of those things they hold dear.

Which is, consequently, also why people burn the flag. Someone wouldn't burn my grandmother's belongings because they were angry at her. They would burn them because they were angry at me, or angry at something I did. It would be their way of getting back at me, of fighting back when they can't physically hit me.

Again, the same with people who burn the flag. They usually can't voice their complaints, or use force to get noticed by those they feel have hurt them, so they attack the symbol that those people hold dear. They transfer the problems they see with the country who owns the flag to the flag itself, and use it as a way of getting back at that country.

And please, understand that I'm not making any moral judgments here. This is once again just an observation, and an attempt at explanation. Many times, the people burning the flags have very legitimate complaints, and just don't have the means to get them rectified.

Anyways, that probably wasn't the best explanation, and I don't know how helpful it was, but hopefully it cleared up a few things.

As for myself, whenever I recite the pledge or take my hat off for the flag or anthem, it's not because I think the flag means something in and of itself. Like most of you, I think it's just a piece of cloth.

However, people who didn't think it was just a piece of cloth, people who put more value into it, died so that I could stand here and think, "It's just a piece of cloth." So, for me, it's a matter of respecting those people who died, and their belief that the flag was more than it is or was.

It's the same with the cross, or any other religious symbol. While I won't salute them, I won't desecrate them either, out of respect for those people who have died believing those objects to be more than they naturally are.

Sincerely and Respectfully,

David Carlson

Actually, it was a really thorough and helpful explanation. Thanks. I agree with pretty much all that you said.

I, for one, have a great respect for the Canadian flag as a symbol. That being said, I'm not a stickler for rules about how to properly treat the flag, but as a symbol, it represents the country to which I belong and which I have a great deal of respect for. Sure, it's not a perfect place to live, but I'm still very proud to be Canadian.

Symbols are powerful. Whether it be a symbolic tattoo, a flag, a religious statue, a stupa, or a peace pipe, symbols touch something ineffable in the human consciousness.

See, in my mind, patriotism is not in and of itself a bad thing. It's good to be proud of your origins, in my mind, and I'm proud of being a Canadian. It's when patriotism takes a nasty turn, when it gets ugly, when it becomes all-consuming to the point at which you can't see or think straight that it becomes a problem. In my not so humble opinion, this is happening and has happened to a large part in many parts of the States. Patriotism no longer simply means "pride in your country," but becomes something more. It means that your country is the BEST country and your way of doing things is the BEST way of doing things. It runs contrary to our pluralistic world where various points of view are valued.

Yeah. As much as this country has screwed things up, I am proud of some of our achievements when I'm not in my overly cynical mood. I'm not really patriotic...although, oddly, after September 11 I became so patriotic it was scary. That was a strange spell. That was my resort since I was only 11 and it was my way to cope, so it's hard to transition out. Some days I really don't feel like saying the pledge. Most of the time, I just skip saying the "under God" part. No, I won't bring up a court case (because it means so much to other people) but I've decided I just won't say it - because I feel like I'm lying. I don't believe we're a nation under God. And that's that. I do have faith in some things our country does, like providing aid. While I spend most of my time concentrating on all the bad things my country does, there's good there too. I respect the flag for all the symbolism it holds, and Ikemook, I give you a standing ovation for that brilliant explanation. I almost cried. It was beautiful, man.

Patriotism is turning into fascism in the States. It's frightening. The government is manipulating people's patriotism to support the war. It drives me crazy when people twist things to make you feel guilty about not being patriotic; they claim that not being patriotic=not supporting the troops. In reality, this patriotism--this idea that the U.S. is so great that it is above the UN, is responsible for sending our troops to die in some pointless war in the first place.


I admit that I have taken part in one of these flag burning ceremonies, a long time ago with girl scouts. (See what you miss out on, Patient, when you drop out of girl scouts early? ) It was horrificly cultish. It was almost like we were partaking in some sacred animal sacrifice. We waited till after dark and then created this big bonfire in the woods and cut the flag up in some strange fashion and sat in a circle reading all these patriotric things. I don't remember it that well, only that I found it to be really strange and unnecessary.

I once read an article that I think was by Cat Farmer (Cat Farmer; I say again, Cat Farmer; there is someone on this planet named Cat Farmer). In it, he talked about how he messes with someone who had a wet, haggard flag on someone's car. He told the guy it was illegal for him to have a flag like that and he had to burn it but that's illegal so he's in a catch 22. It was quite hilarious.

The fascism part bugs me. If I ever get involved in such a conversation with a person...blah. I might explode. The closer we move to a fascist state the scarier this place is.

The flag represents many things, it's the symbolism, not the piece of cloth you're showing respect to. You could just as easily say "Why should I respect my father? He's just $90 worth of chemicls and garbage?" You don't respect an object but what it represents. A nation's flag represents that nation's way of life and many other things. You should all do a little research before you just say stuff like this. If there was something that represented you or your family, you'd want it to be respected. For instance, how about any one of you taking a dump on your family's crest or maybe going to visit Grandma and Grampa's grave and pissing on the tombstone. You wouldn't do that, you'd consider it terrible. This isn't any different. The flag has a lot of things it represents to a lot of people, you show respect for it for those people, living and dead. If you can't understand that, man, you need help.

I know that when the flag is a symbol of the country, and people pay respect to their flag to pay respect to their country. I understand and have no problem with that. What i don't understand was first brought up by Righteous, and is about the caring and looking after of a flag. Certain things i can understand, such as a flag not touching the floor symbolising a nation not being defeated and stuff. Other things, especially this 'the correct way to destroy a flag' thing, i still don't get. This is honouring the flag, not the country. It is not symbolising a country being treated well, in this instance it is the flag itself. Doing this to a soldier who has died defending his/her country I can also understand (not cutting them into strips, obviously, but a proper burial right) as the person was doing something that meant a lot to them. However, the flag itself has not served it's country, it is an inanimate thing. It can be replaced by another flag, and so the symbol 'lives on' and can be seen continually.
Just to clarify what I mean, as I think I wasn't too clear about it the first time, the flag itself is not the symbol. It is what is on the flag that is the symbol, and by this i do not mean literally on the flag, but the colours and patterns that can be seen on it. The symbol is not actually a physical object (bear with me, this is difficult to explain, and i'm not terribly good at it) but a collection of colours that have been made with physical objects to show the symbol that represents the nation. The flag is one of these objects. If someone had made the American flag in a pool of water out of petals, or stuck it as a bumper sticker on their car ,or even chalked it onto a wall, it would receive no special treatment. So why do it for a piece of cloth that also shows the symbol?

I'll be impressed if anyone got that.

I'm assuming because the way we've used the piece of cloth, been directed to use the piece of cloth, and have stuck with the piece of cloth for so many years.

Just a guess.

Yes...



And yes, I did grow up on a commune in China. It meant alot more then.

That would be a huge problem as the Union Jack is made up of the Welsh, English and Scottish flags, and there is no black in any of them.

uhh....flag....a jack is mounted on the bow of a ship

i guess it has naval origins

the only time i see st georges cross is at international sporting events (rugby and football) saying that english are proud of their history....even the seedier parts (hey, we maybe english but we're still human ) and we'll defend it to the last....if we feel up to it

*spam*

This whole conversation reminds me of a Eddie Izzard show..

*sticks a flag in India*

My family is not equal to the US flag. I don't recognize Old Glory as being my flag. I do respect the Douglases and my heritage. I'm only half American anyway, so why should I care? And as for my American heritage, I'm a southerner. I've said I take pride in the Confederate flag more than I do the American flag, much to the dismay of my girlfriend who's from New York.

As a southerner.. I find the confederate flag an abomination. No matter how you justify it, it still represents hate to a vast number of Americans. You can say they where standing for their rights to live free from government oppression.. but considering that part of that right meant enslaving other humans to work for you. I don’t feel that it was or is a justifiable cause. As a southerner, in the heart of the south.. I find it the confederate flag shameful and offensive. People of color who's ancestors where murdered and enslaved under the confegerate flag would be inclinded to agree as well.
To say that the war had nothing to do with slavers is just incorrect. The push to secede came from wealthy Georgia, South South Carolina, and Alabama land owners that felt that the north was trying to that tariffs they paid brought improvements to the north while the south received none. Then when the abolitionist started the push to free the slaves, slave owners felt it was one more push to take from the south. They where to free there slaves without compensation?? Lord no! Lets not free this person we kidnapped from another country.. I think it is called kidnapping these days.
The push to secede came from the wealthy landowners. They where the ones with their hands in politics. Not the farmer who owned no slaves. He was the one who fought because the rich northern industrialist where invading his country. The rich landowners recognized that the economy in the south depended on cotton and slavery without the two it would crumble. With the Kansas-Nebraska Act (which eliminated the Missouri Compromise, which limited the territories in which slavery could be established) the possiblity that slavery could be established anywhere in the US became a possiblity. This brought forward many politicians whom had been staying away from the issues. With this political pressure mounting, the push to secede became stronger.. and sooner or later the civil war began.

I've never dug the hate angle. I've never seen the Confedetate flag as a symbol of hatred, though others have. It's all in how you view it. Some see the US flag as a symbol of freedom and unity. I see it as a giant bloodrag. You see the CSA battleflag as a symbol of complete hatred of others. I see it as a symbol of liberation and desire to maintain one's rights against tyranny. As I've said, I'd fight for the CSA. I'm not for the ownership of anyone, but I'd fight, kill and die for rights and freedom.

In any case, it's your opinion and your views. Where abouts in the south do you live anyhow?

North Carolina, I actually had several family members die in the civil war.. I just cant stand behind something that represents so much pain and hatred to so many people.

I feel the same way about the US flag. Call me odd, but I see more blood on Old Glory then the Stars and Bars. That's why I'd rather fly the CSA flag.

Slight spam: Trina and I were discussing what flag(s) we'd fly in our yard. She had the gall to suggest the US flag, but she said she'd only allow it if we flew the US flag too. We compromised on "Don't Tread On Me."

Righteous, you seem to be contradicting yourself slightly, you seem to be saying people shouldn't hate the confederate flag because of the slavery, hatred and bloodshed for what it represents.....but your hate the US flag seems to be based on those same reasons

Precisely what I was going to say. The Confederates were fighting for the right... to subjugate the rights of other human beings. That's not fighting for freedom. That's fighting for slavery.

If you feel that the American flag has too much blood on it, why not just avoid flying a flag in your yard at all? Or perhaps fly a flag that represents peace and justice, like the UN flag? There's no blood on those flags.

EDIT: I had no idea you were such a strong supporter of teh Canadian Standards Agency, Ri.

It also just occurred to me that if you are as truely concerned with anarchism as you profess, you really shouldn't be showing your allegiance to any state or form of government -- including the Confederate flag. You should perhaps consider flying the black flag of anarchy.

Well, it's more of a dedication to the ideals of the Confederacy. Besides, the Confederacy was in one war. The US has been in an average of one war every twenty years (roughtly).


There's an anarchy flag? Where the Hell can I get one? I'll put it on my wall with the other two.


World government is scary to me.


Damn skippy.

Another way of looking at it is this: The "Don't Tread On Me" flag doesn't represent any country; it represents ideal. I don't respect the Stars and Bars for the country, but the ideals.

I once saw a tee shirt that had a Confederate flag on it and it said, "Heriatage, Not Hatred." That's one onthe ways I look at it.

Heritage, not hatred? So, in order to celebrate my heritage, should I wear a shirt with a swastika on it since my great-uncle was a member of the Nazi party? Somehow I don't think that would go over very well (and I wouldn't do it, anyway...I'd rather forget that aspect of my heritage...but it's just an example).

Sorry, that whole "heritage" thing just doesn't add up to me. The confederate flag *does* stand for hatred in my mind simply because a major motivating factor behind that one war was the fact that those states wanted to keep the right to enslave others. I know there were other reasons, but there's no separating that flag and slavery, just as there's no separating the swastika and the Nazis (even though it was used extensively in many different cultures prior to the holocaust to mean something very different). I can understand that people want to celebrate their heritage...but to say that flag doesn't stand for anything bad is just wrong.

Anyway, the original topic...I don't own any flags. I don't ever plan to fly any in my yard, either. I just don't take enough pride in this country to ever do so. Perhaps someday I might, if this place ever becomes the country it *should* be. As far as them being symbols of our countries...meh. They're just pieces of cloth to me. I don't see why there needs to be a huge deal about flag ettiquette. I mean really...contacting the Boy Scouts to burn an American flag for you in a proper ceremony just because it slipped out of your hand and touched the ground? That's a bit much, I think.

The flag etiquette is a bit much, I agree...

Ri, I'd ditto everything up there. But would you actually fight in the Confederacy? Although states' rights was a major dispute, you would also be fighting for the right to own another human being and, well, enslave them. I see your other causes as being somewhat plausible, but that mention just bugged me.

From all I've read, that's not actually necessary. An old retired flag is usually burned, but it's not actually part of the flag code that if it touches the ground, it has to be burned. It's just not supposed to touch the ground. I think the whole "burning after touching the ground thing" started as something of an urban myth and then passed into common usage, but... according to this, it's not actually required.

It wasn't around very long. Didn't have a chance to get the blood on it's hands.

Besides which, one of the ideals of the Confederacy -- the main one that sparked the war -- was the enslavement of others. Say what you want, but when I see a Confederate flag, I see slave owners. I see transgressions of human rights. I see crimes against humanity.



There's a few, actually. The most common one I've read about is a pure black piece of cloth. Negating all countries, all governments, all boundaries. Ironically, that would include a Confederate government flag...


And a Confederate government is not?

I'm just curious as to precisely what the UN has done that scares you? The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps? The International COurt of Justice, which brings war criminals to justice? Or perhaps it's the use of peacekeepers to, ironically, keep the peace in war torn nations?

Besides which, I'm not *exactly* sure it can be considered a government at all. I mean, the General Assembly has little to no actual power... although I realize this may be a point of disagreement.

Flying the flag is a lot less common here in England than it (apparently) is in America. If I see it on people's homes, I'll assume that there's some kind of international sporting event we're competing in (usually football, rugby or cricket). It's usually that or something to do with the monarchy, like a royal funeral or a Jubilee. If it's neither of those things, then odds are good whoever's flying it is a UKIP or BNP supporter.

Yeah, or it means the Queen's at home. It's always flying at wherever she's staying isn't it?

I had a look at that flag code thing. Is that law, or just sort of, respected guidelines? In Britain we have loads of old laws that have never been rebuked, but no one pays any attention to them anymore. Like all swans belonging to the Queen and stuff like that. Is the flag code like that? Or is it a crime not to obey it?

Yep, and at half-mast if someone's dead.

erm.. isn't that the royal standard? rather then the english or british flags...

I saw the Union Jack being flown at half-mast when the Queen Mother passed away...I don't know, maybe they got it wrong.

I thought they flew the union jack when the queen wasn't there.... the royal standard when she was... Might be wrong thou...

That's pretty much it. I've been Stateside twice and I was astonished to see so many flags in people's gardens, on houses... even on billboards!

Here, it's pretty much as Commie says. At the mo, there's a plethora of George Crosses adorning cars and houses across England, as there's the impending European Championship (like the World Cup, but only including European countries). More so, in fact, than when England won the World Rugby thingy not so long ago.

Things like royal ceremonies and such usually require the Union Flag instead. And AFAIK the UKIP and BNP use this flag as well. The Cross is usually reserved for England-related stuff.

Incidentally, there's been a big push here to ban the George Cross from some pubs and towns and the like, as it's considered racist and offensive to women. WHAT????? Here we are, embarking on a large-scale football tournament (which always raises the country's pride levels) and people are actively wanting to show their pride by flying their own flag, only to be told by some politically-correct nancy that it should be outlawed due to some half-baked racist and sexist argument! I'd love to meet these idiots, so I can stick >

[Rant has been clipped, and replaced by innocuous outdoory-type noises, as the content is deemed unsuitable for children]

< and live in a country with a flag that has no such connotations. Like Switzerland.

Sorry about that. I'm sure I get too worked up about this. But I've never met a woman who finds the flag offensive. I do know some people who reckon it has racist overtones, but that's largely due to the fact they live in Oldham, an area that has been poisoned by a small number of neanderthals with nothing better to do than kick the crap out of people...

Have to agree with you there. I've no interest in flying either flag myself, but saying it's racist or sexist is just pure bollocks. Racists use the flag - the flag is not racist.

No idea where the sexist bit comes from. I reckon they just throw that word in whenever they're trying to get something banned.

It will be linked to child pornography next....

Could be... Apparently it's this pub chain in Birmingham, they say that the flag encourages loutish behaviour and is offensive to women. I've not heard of any elaboration on that, but the theory is along the lines of "women don't like football and are oppressed by the presence of loud and drunken males".

I've heard many women say that it's complete and utter crap. Most women who are ever likely to venture to the pub during an England match are at least as likely to be as loud and drunk as the blokes!

One woman on the radio said she found the pub chain's statement to be offensive to women. I wonder if they could be sued for that??

the story

I think that is crap.. when women here watch football we are just as loud and rowdy as the guys.. when I come to England.. we will go to that pub and show them!! ... but you guys have to come with me!!