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Your poems awesome! ph34r.gif
Alright, much like many other poems on this board, I find it ultimately boring. There seems to be no poetic devices in this; no metaphor, no simile, no rhythm. This really reads more like a disjointed prose piece (read: a short essay with sporadic presses of the enter key) than poetry. It's not beyond redemption, but it needs a lot of work.

Keep writing. Refine yourself.
depressed lonely crazy person
There doesn't seem to be much of a point to it and I find the way it's been broken up confusing.
No, you see the problem is is that's not really good poetry. It's prose that's been written time and time again that just happens to be broken up in certain spaces. Poetry needs (on top of emotion) poetic devices. Rhythm, rhyme, metaphor, it's all needed to make poetry - what the vast majority of society doesn't understand is that anyone who writes down something and calls it poetry does not necessarily make it so. Poetry is hard work and that's why it's so fulfilling when ultimately you craft a good one.

-As a side note, I'd like to point out that poetry also doesn't have to be completely dark and gloomy, either. That's another societal misconception.

Keep writing. Refine yourself.
well.... I Liked it. Sure, it may not be defined as poetry, but I like your writing.

You should also read PWM's signature.
Hun, Mike wasn't being harsh or mean or trying to break your spirit.

If you read his second comment, he's giving you constructive criticism and ways to improve your writing.

Now, shall we calm down and take a look?

Have you ever tried reading your poetry out loud to other people? By reading it out loud, you can get a sense of how the poem flows and where things like punctuation could help the reader, who, you must remember, doesn't know how you hear it in your head, to hear and feel what you're trying to capture.

Remember, poetry is "powerful emotion recollected in tranquility"-Wordsworth.

And always keep writing. If you like what you write, that's all that matters.
Alright - you're offended; I didn't do anything to offend you - my comments were made in an amiable fashion and if you're looking for a fight, then that's your problem; not mine.

As for lumping you into a group of people, I didn't do that - you did it yourself. However, while we're on that subject, methinks thou doth protest too much. Who are you trying to convince that you're original?

I simply tried to help you in a nice way to improve your poetry. Criticism should be the life blood of your poetry.

I'd now like to take the time to ask you to please deal with whatever problems you have with me in a calm and civil manner. That shouldn't be too hard, now should it?
dancing hamster guy
Nice to see a bit of the old mike coming through!

Anyway, its not bad, I suppose...
Now I have no idea about poetry. I messed my English exam up so I shouldn't complain. But does it need some punctuation perhaps - I nearly passed out trying to say it in one breath.
I don't care what anyone says, poetry is from the heart and doesn't necessarilly require punctuation or rhyming couplets, iambic pentameter or whatever else makes other people feel comfortable.
I read a poem of about 4 stanzas which was utter crap by a well known and well resprected poet, I think it was Ted Hughes, which was akin to putting a brick in the Tate Midern and calling it 'art'. Noone told him to be more deep or use stanzas or commas..
This poem speaks about your experiences, your alienation and your refusal to adhere to rigid stereotypes. Am I the only person who can infer what you are talking about??
Don't let anyone stem the flow of your creativity. I used to do that and after a while the creativity died. It's only recently I have got it back.
You were brave allowing people to see your thoughts and I liked the ideas. I have certainly related to some of the emotions.

KEEP CREATING!! The world is your poem!!

Rain xx smile.gif
arrrrrrrggghhh!! PLEASE ignore the typing errors!! blink.gif ohmy.gif
Actually, if you read the quote I put in my comment, it refers to emotion, which comes from the heart, m'dear.

And please, before you start flinging insults about, at least think about the comments that we're making. When you display your work to others, you must be prepared to have people give you their opinion. I have my own up here, and you're always free to do the same.

Now, the only major problem is the fact that when reading poetry, punctuation is the only time when you're suppossed to breathe. While as rainbowclogs mentioned a poem that has no punctuation, which, I admit freely, happens sometimes with more well-known poets, but, also as rainbowclogs pointed out, the poem was only four stanzas long. Yours is considerably longer.

Now, I'm going to suggest reading your poem out loud and when you take a breath, insert some sort of punctuation- commas work well. Or, if you stop at every line, indicate to the reader that he should as well stop by putting in punctuation.

Now, once again, I say don't stop writing. Writing is fun, but it can also be hard work. happy.gif
...I really would like to know what other people think...

There. You asked for other peoples opinons. You wanted criticism. We gave it and we gave it nicely. You are the one with a problem here.
QUOTE (over_the_aybss @ Apr 18 2005, 10:10 PM)
I probably just won't write anymore, I can see now that nobody like it anyway  sad.gif
Is it the way that everyone is telling you to keep writing that makes you think this?

PWM and Ange have offered a little criticism, thats all. And I agree with them. Its great that you're writing and I hope you continue to do so, but until you start using poetic techniques the poems aren't going to mean much to anyone except you.

No one here is trying to insult or upset you so please stop trying to start fights.
Alright, as I'm trying to be diplomatic here, I'm going to try one more time to explain.

I'm not bashing your work, I swear, if I was, you would know it. But I'm not.

Show me where I said anything that resembled calling your work horrible and I will gladly appologize.

That being said, I'd like to once again state that it is in your best interest, from the point of view of the reader, to place some sort of punctuation marks, in order to let the reader breathe.

Yes, I did infact read what rainbowclogs said, and actually, if you read my above post, you'll see I even quoted what they said. happy.gif

And once again, I invite you to make the same sort of sonstructive criticism to any of my poems. They're in creations. When you put your work into a forum like this, you sometimes find yourself with people who have different opinions. We're not bashing your work, just showing you our view of it.
You give poets a bad name - this is exactly why everyone thinks that all poets are tempermental little people that can't take criticism. This is making my life harder as a poet, and I resent it.

That said, I told you that it needs revision. I didn't say anything malicious (until these past few posts when the subject matter has been your replies and not your work) and I didn't intend to, either. I've been warned and I've learned my lesson. Feel free to bash my poetry if you want to eye for eye tooth for tooth me. I enjoy criticism of any type. Good or bad. There is no growth without it.There's a link to it. Post away.
depressed lonely crazy person
This person is just being childish and wanting an ego rub. they aren't worth much more than this if they can't deal with criticism.
It gives me the s**ts
Bear with this, it does get to a good point at the end:

*deep breath*


QUOTE (depressed lonely crazy person @ Apr 19 2005, 12:54 PM)
This person is just being childish and wanting an ego rub. they aren't worth much more than this if they can't deal with criticism.
It gives me the s**ts

That didn't really help anything.

PWM, I see what you were trying to do, but I think you've missed the point that a vast amount of people don't actually care half as much about the technical details of stanza construction as you do.

Some people write and share poetry just to try and get things off their chest. The very act of creating anything is usually more important than the final result. If you think that's a load of rubbish then maybe you should read up about Gustav Metzger and autodestructive art.

I think what may have happened here is a conflict between a Poet (a person who takes the form and the progression of it very seriously) and a person who is writing poems. The two of them have utterly different perspectives on what is important. The Poet believes that the act of writing is entirely about the resulting words. These words may be laboured over for years on end (Coleridge was rewriting The Rime Of The Ancient Mariner for 28 years and still never got it how he would have liked). A person who is writing poetry may be something completely different. For them it is about the expression of a moment in their lives. To paraphrase Wordsworth's introduction to The Lyrical Ballads, it is about man in a state of vivid sensation being expressed in the common language of the land. Such times may not lead to the most erudite or well expressed poems, but they retain a charm and that gives them importance for the writer.

This leads to the issue of how they should be responded to. As with poems that can be thought to be great or a load of rubbish (I believe Ted Hughes has already been mentioned (and no, I'm not really bothered by his stuff either, although I do quite like 'The Bricks' in the Tate)), a response to a poem can often be read two ways: a critique can easily be seen as an insult, and there is a narrow line sometimes. For the record, I do think that PWM would have been on the correct side of that line if it weren't for the fact that this was clearly this person's first post, and without being able to judge more easily what sort of reaction was being sought then it is always better to err on the side of caution before going off into a full critique of form and expressive terms.

So what can be done?

In future, if a poem should strike you as something that you desperately want to critique then firstly always find something nice to say. If you really cannot find _anything_ nice to say then you have two options:

1) shut up and don't say anything. If you feel so strongly that the poet is hopeless then it's probably far better to just let them happily chip away at their notebooks than it is to entirely discourage them from writing something else

2) politely state that the poem doesn't appeal to you for a number of reasons and then ask if the person if they are looking for a detailed critique, emphasising that it is the form of expression that you are going to discuss, not the subject matter. This isn't rocket science. This forum is built on respect, and sometimes we have to ask others to clarify what they are looking for to maintain that respect.

2 brings me on to my final point. Yes, people have written about rejection, isolation, individuality, and lack of understanding before. They will again. This doesn't mean that it is impossible to write a good poem about it. A lot of people have these feelings at some point in their life and so it is only natural that there will be a lot of poems about it. Surely it is better that a person writes about something that they feel rather than forcing themself to write about fluffy bunnies all the time?

Many great poems have been written about these subjects and others that are related, death, longing etc etc etc. The subject matter of the poem really isn't something that should ever be a main point in a criticism.

I used to drink at a pub called The Ship. It was one of very few 'alternative' pubs in my home city out of a very large number of drinking establishments. We would describe it as the pub where everyone was being different in exactly the same way. Even rebelion frequently has conformity, but still there is a market for goth music with lyrics saying exactly the same things as they were twenty years ago. All the people in the pub thought that they were being individual, despite the fact that to an outsider they were just a mass of black, but, the thing is, that they were right. They were being individual, just as the people in every other pub, living room, bedroom, tent, or hut in the world was being different.

We are all individuals, and what we feel will always be personal to us. Part of feeling isolated is a difficulty in recognising that other people may have felt the same emotions, but even if they have it doesn't matter because those emotions are still real and expressing them is still perfectly valid. In such circumstances it is often more important that the expression happens at all rather than the precise technical qualities of it.

I agree, the poems might benefit readers if they have a different arrangement, punctuation etc. but would OTA's feelings benefit from this?

Don't always look on the words of poems as the important end result. Sometimes it is that the process has occured that it more important, and in such cases the writer will often not really be that bothered by the final result as much as hoping that people can understand the emotions that they are feeling.

I read those poems and I know the emotion that OTA is feeling and in that they are effective. My personal thoughts on the validity of those feelings to my life are utterly unimportant. PWM, your comment that the subject matter is overused is really missing the point. That's like saying to a person with clinical depression 'why can't you just cheer up?' The point of the poem is that you understood how OTA felt. Your personal opinion of the feelings expressed in the poems is that they are angst. The poems were effective in conveying the feelings of the writer to you, that those feelings are not ones that you give a damn about is besides the point and shouldn't enter into your discussion of the poem.

If you can't relate to the emotions in a poem in the same way as the writer then you most likely aren't the target audience. Your options then are then either to ignore it or politely ask if the writer would like a little criticism of their style. Launching into this from a person's first post is always going to make a bad impression, and a little caution never goes amiss.
Agreed, Mata, Mike's aproach often tends to discourage the less tough-skinned poets and should be mitigated in instances where he doesn't know that the poet is looking for an intensive, blunt criticism. In PWM and Ange's defense, though, I think the melodramatic reaction may have been a bit much, and the poet should perhaps have been a bit more gracious about constructive criticism. The one thing that's important to learn as an artist or poet is that not everything can be taken as a personal attack. Listening to other opinions never hurts, and if you truly do disagree, ignoring them never caused much serious trauma either. Aggressive rejection of other opinions is not reasonable when it comes to art, even your own.

Besides, without a little criticism here and there, where would the angst for the next piece come from? tongue.gif
Mata, I wasn't trying to villify anyone. If I did, then I apologize. However, I believe was, before being antagonized, fairly respectful. I've come to try to adopt your belief that creation is an inherently good thing, hence my "Keep writing. Refine yourself." Comment. I don't mean to be combatitive, but I honestly felt it was lacking in poetic essentials and I said that in my review. As far as the subject matter, I believe that my response was misinterpreted. When I said that everything had been said before, I meant that there was an abundance of cliched phrases. If that was offensive, I didn't mean for it to be, but I again believe it true.

In short, I didn't mean for anything to be augering. It was a simple critique that got way out of hand because as nice as I'm trying to be, people still can't take it.
Mike, I really do understand what you were trying to do. Maybe it's the poet in you, but sometimes when you're giving honest feedback you use words that are perhaps more emotive than you realise.

Things did get out of hand in this thread, and a feedback loop developed, which is unfortunate, especially if it has meant that OTA truly has been discouraged from developing her writing. As you say, some people aren't at the point in their writing careers where they can take criticism, constructive or otherwise. As I've said in the Criticism thread, in future it might be a good idea to mention that you are a poet and politely ask if they would like some criticism of their form to help them improve their writing.

Poetry for many people is so personal that criticism can be taken as a deeply intimate insult. It might not be this way for you, but for some this is the truth and they see any criticism as demeaning their right to feel the validity of their own emotions, which understandably makes them very defensive. I think that's what happened here.
Nice to have you back. I don't like it when things go sour and especially when it is over a misunderstanding!
I'm not a poet, nor do I go out of my way to read poetry. My favourite poet is e. e. cummings. The poems by him that I have read seem to use punctuation quite sparingly. I hold him to be my favourite poet because he stirred up raw emotions in me. Maybe I should make an effort to expand my reading of poems, but to be honest I doubt I will.
I'm not trying to take away from the craftsmanship aspect of writing a poem, but 'reading' poetry to me is about being either me touched by it or not.

It's good that you came back biggrin.gif
I think Mata made some good points there and also showed you that we all have different tastes as well which often makes our criticisms of poems very different. The bricks in the Tate are a good example to use again. I personally found no creative genius in their presence, but I can happily stand in the Saacthi Gallery and feel overwhelmed by the imaginative genuis of a room full of petrol. We all differ and yet we are all the same in our own funny ways, if that makes sense...??That's the beautyof it all (cue a drift into rainbow dreaminess and philiosophical trance-like state!!..).

I'm looking forward to your next creation personally. I often like to use poetry as a means to paint and have found some inspiration from the creations on this site so feed my ideas (if that doesn't sound too strange!!)
As I said before..........

Rain xxxx smile.gif
depressed lonely crazy person
I like these batter than your previous things...but I would find them a little boring and generic if you hadn't made the connection between them and romeo and juliet which makes them kind of interesting.
Like a good connection to the baz lurman leo de-crapio modern thing which in that context iritated me
They read more like song lyrics than poems to me, have you considered setting them to music?
For advice: as hard as it sounds, I don't think that you should allow yourself to be hurt by him again. It's your call, and you know far more about the situation, but it seems like he doesn't know what he wants that well either. That could just be very confusing to go out with. If he's still hopeful in six months and you're still tempted then think about it, but he might be flitting because he wants what he can't have.

I don't usually allow swearing on the forum unless it it strongly justified by the situation. I'll let this one go, but try not to make it a central piece of future poems please!
Thanks smile.gif

You can say 'pisses', that's not very rude really, although I try to get everyone to type the full versions of words on here, so I consider the 'u' to be more rude! wink.gif

I must sound really pedantic... I'm not usually lecturing people about the rules, you've obviously caught me at an odd time.

Good luck with the man problems. You might want to post about it in the Personal Concerns forum if you want to talk about it more.
QUOTE (over_the_aybss @ Apr 26 2005, 04:19 PM)
I cant help writing the U's. AIM lingo is stuck permently on my brain.  laugh.gif

You'll get used to it quite quickly, and it makes life easier in the future when you're sitting down to write formal letters. It's good practice to resist accidentally putting in a 'U' by mistake when it might be important.
Cheers Mata. I actually find it harder to write in AIM speak than I do as I'd normally write something for a school paper.

I did know a teacher who used to accept AIM speak in papers, though. It made me sick.
QUOTE (over_the_aybss @ Apr 26 2005, 07:35 PM)
My New Motto: I'll try  but if I dont succeed, Somebody slap me

You've come to the right place! biggrin.gif

(The 's' shouldn't be uppercase and you forgot the full-stop! wink.gif)
Nope, I'm not usually pedantic, but if you ask to be given a slap for bad grammar then I'll happily be picky! biggrin.gif

Well... Okay, I'm a bit of a grammar-Nazi, but not too bad usually...

As I've said in this thread before, I'm not a big fan of most poetry. The things I like have usually endured a few hundred years before I've got around to reading them, so that in itself is a test of their strength.

I think the second half of the poem is stronger than the first half: I'm not sure that questions often help a piece to convey its meaning. I think if you ask a question when you're writing it needs to be answered, rather than assuming the reader understands you, and then it would be better to just present your answer in the first place!

It's definitely got promise. As I think has been mentioned before, you might need to really think about the pacing of the lines and the way that you use punctuation. Things like commas give people a speed at which to read the lines, without these it's easy to just flow between words and all pacing gets lost... This said, I think it shows promise. The imagery is improved from even the first poem you posted on here. Keep going!
Hmm... I guess I will say something about all of your poems, since I just started reading this thread.

Your first two I didn't much care for, but I think that's more a matter of personal preference than of your writing style.

The romeo & juliet one was cool! I like the narrative style, because usually I don't write like that, and it's fun to hear (or read) something different. I really think that although some of the words you used could be improved, it really shows some promise.

But the next one was my favorite. At the beginning I didn't much like it. I think, as others have said, that it was the use of questions. I didn't quite understand it. But at the end, I loved it! The shortened phrases made it seem alive and brilliant. Keep up the great work. biggrin.gif

the precious life, each holds in thier own hands,
and the pin-pricks, guiding lights
that how the way of the future
a heartache excites
knowing you have the power
to live at all
I am
We are

Oh, and by the way, it's really great how you can except criticism so easily, and how you learned so quickly. It took me quite a while to learn to appreciate constructive criticism.
I like the internal dialogue one. I know others might say its cliche or something, but I really like it and think that it is well done. Good job smile.gif
I like the ending of that one, although I can't put my finger on why.

I'm not so sure about the first stanza, I don't think the repetition worked in your favour. It's a very difficult thing to get away with... In fact there aren't any poems I can think of right now where it has worked well! Sometimes avoiding that kind of thing can force you to find new ways of phrasing things, on the other hand you could try a poem where there is lots of repetition and see if you can get a good result with it. These things are there to be challenged!
I know what you mean, I've never really been that good at changing things that I've closed the book on, that's why I try to make my comments about things that you might write in the future.

And pretty much like 28374692389476012398478769874 other poems onthe internet.

For the second last poem you posted, try adding more description into it. Make it more interesting.

And your poems don't seem to have much automatic rhythm in them, which is slightly annoying as you're not sure how to read it to yourself.
I quite liked the Hidden Heaven poem. I think that it has a more pronounced rhythm to it and I liked the ideas of it. It's also easily interpretted and related to so many different scenarios.

I also thought that it was a nice idea in another poem when you compared your life to a blank page. It reminds me of a poem I read a few years back. Can't remember the name or poet for the life of me but it was about a blanket of snow, and as animals ran across it, the page was filled with words of a poem...
No one's posting except mata

*Feels forgotten*

Oh, and

For the second last poem you posted, try adding more description into it. Make it more interesting.

I was actually hoping that people could tell me WHAT to change and WHY it should be. Not just saying boring and adding in a few numbers.

So, lets try this again?

What do you think i should change?

Did you coveniently forget to notice the helpful hints?

And i agree, be a little more specific, not quite so vague. Make it personal and special, unlike the other poems in some way.
Your poem isnt bad. Just keep working on it.
and its ok to be forgotten... sometimes its very useful...

well anyways, i do like alot of your poems, keep em coming.
There's something about that last poem that catches my attention. As yet I can't quite put my finger on it but when I do I'll let you know.

My main point of hesitation though is that I'm not sure about how you use punctuation. When I tried to read that aloud I ran out of breath.
Is it your intention for others to insert punctuation where they feel it is required?
I have come across others who use that method but often on a much shorter passage, this seems a touch long for that to be truly effective. Perhaps by fiddling a little with your puntuation you could really enhance the impact of that piece?

Either way I enjoy reading your work even though I don't post often, on occasion it gives me a kick start to get back to my own work. Although its mainly visual I find text can be a fascinating starting point for so many ideas. Keep it up!
tv with legs
its good
tv with legs
You are way better than i am. Thats enough for me for somebody to be better than me. I think your poems meen something you and thats cool. I really dont care what people say bout my poems, i just need advice for what needs to be changed, like editing.Soo... do not care about the complaints bout your poems, i know i dont.
tv with legs
thanks, that makes me feel alot better about my poems. sometimes i dont know what to think about my poems, which is why i post them here sometimes.
tv with legs
Enh, you're right. i know what you meen. ijust dont like it when people say."whoa, your screwed up in the head" or when preps say"you are so depressed and gothic and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." AAAHHh, god just shut up is what i wanna say. anyways, you know what i meen?
tv with legs
that is what i was trying to say to you the first time. smile.gif anyways, i hope other people read this cause the aplies to yall to. the piont is ota, your poems are great and dont let anyone talking sh*t about you bother you. same goes for me. i have that kind of problem
tv with legs
smile.gif virtual protectoin for insults laugh.gif
anyways, thats cool, id do the same for you probaly
tv with legs
QUOTE (over_the_aybss @ Jul 13 2005, 09:39 PM)
I'm kinda like EH for this one, but I wanted to post it anyway.

Remeber city light on the rooftop
or the first kiss we shared?
Talk from all the other people
and how you never cared?
Listning to alll my little secrets
and I to yours?
The problems that faced us
and how they were cured?
Watching you work through parts of your life
that were hardest to share?
and I needed a shoulder to cry on
how you were always there?
Remeber saying last goodbyes
before you had to leave
you said "I won't forget you"
and had your heart on your sleeve?
You told me we were forever
thats how it would always be
so why that you have returned
did you suddenly forget me?

WOW, best poem i have ever read.(not saying that to be nice) really, that is really good. did this come out of an experience for you, or did you write it from the feelings you have. anyways. great poems, i would like to hear more.
tv with legs
well, it was good, it deserved a great compliment. biggrin.gif not like the other people who thanked you for your great poetry mad.gif
tv with legs
i really should ask my friend to post it on his web site. sorry though, he doenst want me to tell people what the site is. sorry wink.gif
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