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CommieBastard
For those of you who don't read Pointless Waste of Time (warning: strong language and adult content), they recently posted an article called A Gamer's Manifesto: 20 things gamers want from the seventh generation of game consoles.

A lot of what they said hit home with me; some excerpts I particularly agreed with:

QUOTE
2. Give us a genre of game we've never seen before. Something that's not an FPS or an RPG or Madden NFL or...

Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?

Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?

Where's the game where we play a salty Southern lawyer who has to piece together evidence to exonerate a black man falsely accused of murder, breaking down witnesses and spotting inconsistencies in testimony?


QUOTE
Developers will be shocked one day when they notice that the world is full of women. It's true! More than half of your potential customer base are penisless. They have money. They like doing fun things. And yet, how do you think they feel when they play a game where the heroine looks like this:



Yeah, that's what she wears into battle. Thong-length kimono, no bra for those flopping DDD breasts.

And this is years after analysts told developers that women would happily play games if they didn't feel so objectified by them, and several decades past the point where they should have even needed to be told that. Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?


Any thoughts on this?
mooooooooooopo
I pretty much agree with most of that. The games industry has become a bit like hollywood - churning out better looking rehashes of the same old crap year after with less and less depth all because people will buy these games regardless of how awful they become.

Why take a risk and make something creative that a few people will really enjoy when you can rehash something you've already made and a million idiots will go out and buy it?]

Personally I'm rather interested in doing independant games development. I like games and I enjoy programming and can do a lot of graphics stuff too which is helpful but I really hate the way the games industry works.

This is a rather interesting article about independant games development and the conditions in the games industry at the moment with some interesting ideas:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/scratch.php (likewise with the strong language and rather a lot of anger)
CommieBastard
QUOTE (moop @ May 31 2005, 12:12 PM)
Personally I'm rather interested in doing independant games development. I like games and I enjoy programming and can do a lot of graphics stuff too which is helpful but I really hate the way the games industry works.
*


Ever since playing the brilliant Uplink and Darwinia by Introversion Software, a company consisting of three blokes (now four) programming from their bedrooms, I'm becoming convinced that independent development will save us all. Go to it, good sir Moop!
Mata
A programmer friend of mine was at E3 and found that she, while enjoying it, was enjoying it less every year that she goes. Here's my response to what she wrote:

QUOTE
It's intriguing to see that the industry is getting tired of E3.

I read a UK magazine called 'Edge'. It is a games magazine that is very
directly targeted at adults and is not shy about publishing six-page
articles analysing game-production culture. Reading that next month
would contain coverage of E3 I couldn't help but feel a little annoyed.
I know it's a very important event, but it seems that the ratio of
useful information to dull background noise is making the job of
reporters increasingly difficult. When there are so many thousands of
people, and seemingly as many games being shown, then it is hard to
believe that the most important titles are being covered or that the
ones that are shown are given the amount of time that they deserve.

From the narrowing of this ratio it simply seems that E3 is becoming
increasingly hostile to the production of useful games coverage.

Judging by what you say, it seems likely that the best strategy for
survival is the one that it looks like you've adopted: get a few target
games that you're interested in the the development of and then
focussing on getting time with those, then treating the rest of it as a
social event. That's probably the most useful way for a visitor to
handle it, but it still doesn't make it any easier for journalists to
find the most interesting new games, which then negates the importance
of the event for people like me because we don't get the coverage that
would be most useful to us.

In another regard, this problem does have a more direct impact on the
consumer. If a game company spends $1m on a stall to promote a game that
sells a million copies then obviously each consumer is spending one
dollar on that event alone. Many games won't sell one million copies, so
the prices are kept high by the cost of marketing.

This is just an outsider's view on the event, but even as a reader I
find the array of information daunting and essentially next-to useless
as it becomes white noise of third-person samurai/ninjas, first-person
'tactical' shooters, and an occasional quirky game that gets lost in the
fray. If it's daunting even after the translation and ordering of
journalists then I'd hate to think what it's like for people who are there!


I know it seems a little off-topic, but my basic point is that the small, interesting games are very rarely getting the coverage that they need, or are even likely to be able to find that coverage at the kind of events where they should be being given the most attention. I'm pleased that the GDC is becoming bigger because that seems to actually be really interested in finding something new.

There has been a game like the spy one described in the quote at the top of this thread. It was called 'Hacker' and came out on the ZX Spectrum 48k. There were pretty much no instructions and you had to work it all out for yourself, find your own way to get the information from the game, and piece together clues about what was going on from shady informants all around the world. I loved it, and I don't think there's been anything like it since.
PsychWardMike
Read the article, actually I was kicking around making a topic on it myself. I agree with a lot of them, Hell, I've been saying it for years. Don't get me wrong - everyone here can attest that I love my favorite series (Viewtiful Joe and Devil May Cry are pretty straight forward, but I love them anyway.) Still, I'd like to see innovation in gameplay (Katamari was pretty nice) but let's face it - those never sell well because companies aren't willing to go whole hog for them what with advertising and what have you.

The next generation of consoles... I simply want to see things get better from here. I'd like a higher emphasis on story and style (even if it is pure action, VJ's style is undeniable.) Bad voice acting and poorly written and recorded music is inexcuasable as are shoddy graphics and unresponsive controls.

In short, new things are nice, but I want perfection of what we have first.
arachnidoc17
I mean, seriously, ever since "the Guy Game" and "Leisure Suit Larry" for the ps2 came out, gameplay pretty much took a nosedive, and expletives skyrocketed. The true "decline of video games".
Mata
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ May 31 2005, 06:59 PM)
The next generation of consoles...  I simply want to see things get better from here.  I'd like a higher emphasis on story and style (even if it is pure action, VJ's style is undeniable.)  Bad voice acting and poorly written and recorded music is inexcuasable as are shoddy graphics and unresponsive controls.

In short, new things are nice, but I want perfection of what we have first.
*

Just to make a change... I couldn't disagree with you more! biggrin.gif

I don't care about 'perfecting' what we already have. People all have individual tastes, so as far as storytelling goes in regards to gameplay it might be that things have gone very nearly as far as things can go.

I think we need new ideas rather than refinement of old ones. Refinement just leads to more of the same. A shark is pretty much the ultimate evolution of a hunting fish but there has been pretty much no change in it for millions of years. I like change! I want to play new things! I think we might finally be reaching the point of sophistication where we can claim that we might have seen classics. I think that something like Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time will stand up well in terms of gameplay and story telling for a long time yet, but such refinement will not work in the favour of many games, instead it will produce a constant steam of games that are like one-another. This is what we alredy have, and mostly they are undistinguished.

We need innovation beyond refinement, because I think it's thourgh innovation that the [i]real]/i] refinement happens. POP is only as good as it is because of the work done on fighting and movement in other games, and also due to the use of influence from other media (such as Jackie Chan films). The innovation created something new for platform games that feels like refinement, but is really innovation.

I don't want something 'better', I want something new, even if the 'new' aspect is just a novel twist.
Calantyr
There are truly few people willing to make the leap into a new unexplored genre. When there is no forerunner it is hard to see where the money is. And ultimately, that is what it comes down to.

But it does happen. I am coming from a PC background though.
Baldurs Gate revitalised the RPG scene.
Fallout gave a real world scummy depth that was lacking.
Sacrifice brought an intriguing twist to Strategy games.
Black and White created a emotional dialoge between player and game that was rather ingenius. As well as the method of actually intereacting in that world, with the movements of the mouse creating actions not the actual instigation of commands.

Games today just seem to use the same tried and tested gameplay mechanics to include the gamer. Theres been no real development in gameply for quite a while. Not in any meaningful way at least.

It's almost as if we have reached the limits of emmersement that we can with technology... at least in how to manipulate computer generated worlds.

As fore genre's... independant games really seem to be the only way to go. Big companies will stick to what they know, and people will keep buying it.
arachnidoc17
REZ is a really innovative game, it's really out there, but it's kinda hard to get your hands on.

It's not for the epileptic, I'll give ya that.
Jonman
QUOTE (arachnidoc17 @ Jun 2 2005, 10:35 PM)
REZ is a really innovative game, it's really out there, but it's kinda hard to get your hands on.

*


Don't get me wrong, I loved Rez to bits, but innovative? Have you never heard of Space Harrier?
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Jonman @ Jun 3 2005, 09:27 AM)
Don't get me wrong, I loved Rez to bits, but innovative? Have you never heard of Space Harrier?
*


Or Space Invaders, for that matter...
Mata
The visual style and the connection between the images and the music was innovative though. Innovation doesn't mean you have to reinvent everything. Technically it would have been more innovative if the little character was controlled by a nose mounted device, but you've got to work with what is a sensible thing to change and what is a tradition for good reason.

Rez is a good example of what I would like to see more of: yes, it was a Space Harrier clone, but it had something new added into the mix that made it feel entirely fresh. You don't have to change everything to have something feel innovative, just try something a bit different. I enjoy the Rachett & Clank games, but there's really very little new in them. I don't play that sort of game and expect to be surprised, but wouldn't it be nice if there was a more healthy mix of something old and something new?
PsychWardMike
Then by your definition, Mata, wouldn't Viewtiful Joe be innovative? That style of cel shading had AT MOST been used by Comix Zone on the Sega Genesis, but Joe takes it to extremes and perfection. Also uses the powers and what have you quite nicely - if nothing else, 'Joe is unique, and thus innovative, yeah?

I'm rambling, point is is that I like Viewtiful Joe.
Jonman
QUOTE (mata)
The visual style and the connection between the images and the music was innovative though. Innovation doesn't mean you have to reinvent everything.


Granted. But wouldn't it be nice if it did? Like Super Mario 64 did? Turning a genre onto it's head

QUOTE (PWMike)
Then by your definition, Mata, wouldn't Viewtiful Joe be innovative? That style of cel shading had AT MOST been used by Comix Zone on the Sega Genesis, but Joe takes it to extremes and perfection. Also uses the powers and what have you quite nicely - if nothing else, 'Joe is unique, and thus innovative, yeah?

VJ innovative? Ermm, I think not. Graphically innovative? Yeah, definitiely. Otherwise, all the features are derivative: time controls nicked from Blinx (without even the good grace to include the Record function), and otherwise a thoroughly derivative (and very old-skool) basic game mechanic.

That's not to say that it's not good. The problem is that it's games like VJ, which aren't particularly innovative at all, that are held up as paragons of new and exciting game design. When they're clearly not.

Eyetoy on the other hand - innovative as they come.
Mata
Eyetoy I think is a good example here: great fun for a few hours. It works well in company because that is another aspect of the innovation - it is specifically designed for social gaming.

However, most Eyetoy games are one-trick ponies. It is innovation for the sake of innovation, which is very useful for the industry, but there hasn't yet been a really good use of it. Personally I think what it really needs is a decent zoom function and a better suite of image-recognition tools. There cannot be a great singleplayer game for it until it stops forcing you to flail constantly, if a zoom were installed, and a pair of gloves with highly reflective finger-tips came with it then you would be able to play games while sitting down, leading to a form of interaction more akin to that seen in Minority Report. I think that this is where the next gen will be going with it, but until then it's innovation without a cause. The reason it sold so well was precisely because the startling nature of the innovation was so great that everyone wanted to use it more, but how many of you often play with your Eyetoy games?

VJ is fun, but I agree with Jon, the game mechanics are very traditional. In some ways though it felt like innovation, because we have become so distanced from old-school gaming. I applaud the visuals, but, like the Eyetoy, they need the game behind the innovation to be solid too, and I'm not convinced that without the very nice visual trickery that the game was really there.
Museum Girl
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ May 31 2005, 10:31 AM)
For those of you who don't read Pointless Waste of Time (warning: strong language and adult content), they recently posted an article called A Gamer's Manifesto: 20 things gamers want from the seventh generation of game consoles.

A lot of what they said hit home with me; some excerpts I particularly agreed with:

QUOTE
2. Give us a genre of game we've never seen before. Something that's not an FPS or an RPG or Madden NFL or...

Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?

Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?

Where's the game where we play a salty Southern lawyer who has to piece together evidence to exonerate a black man falsely accused of murder, breaking down witnesses and spotting inconsistencies in testimony?


Sorry but I would just hate most of those games. If I wanted something like that I would read a novel. They sound either like rehashed Sims or Final Fantasy but without the good bits.

QUOTE
Developers will be shocked one day when they notice that the world is full of women. It's true! More than half of your potential customer base are penisless. They have money. They like doing fun things. And yet, how do you think they feel when they play a game where the heroine looks like this:



Yeah, that's what she wears into battle. Thong-length kimono, no bra for those flopping DDD breasts.

And this is years after analysts told developers that women would happily play games if they didn't feel so objectified by them, and several decades past the point where they should have even needed to be told that. Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?


Any thoughts on this?
*




Speaking as one of the penisless ones, and for all my penisless friends who game. We like those costumes. They're fun and unrealistic, they're aesthetically pleasing. We design charactors wearing similar costumes and we make our own for halloween party's. It's not misogonystic just because you can see her breasts and legs and it doesn't put me off gaming (what puts me off is that I am rubbish). We may complain about them to the penised oens but that is because your male and if we don't complain you get uppity.
Calantyr
If you want a good Spy game, dig up Spycraft: The Great Game.

It's an 'Intereactive Movie' sort of game from years back where they tried the genre, but it's not bad. There's not much shooting. It mostly involves interrogating people, gathering clues, and using funky tools to analyse those clues.

Puzzles are quite tricky. Just don't expect to play it again after you've completed it...
gothictheysay
QUOTE
Speaking as one of the penisless ones, and for all my penisless friends who game. We like those costumes. They're fun and unrealistic, they're aesthetically pleasing. We design charactors wearing similar costumes and we make our own for halloween party's. It's not misogonystic just because you can see her breasts and legs and it doesn't put me off gaming (what puts me off is that I am rubbish). We may complain about them to the penised oens but that is because your male and if we don't complain you get uppity.


Well, I'm sure that some girls do like those costumes... but there are a lot of girls who don't and do feel that it's objectifying. Now I don't play a lot of video games (pretty much Tetris and Mario games on a crappy old N64), but I scoff at some outfits I've seen in advertisements... I know I'd prefer to have female characters wearing something a little more reasonable. So while you may enjoy those outfits, there's a whole lot of people who don't. By having both examples, they'd be servicing both markets.
Museum Girl
QUOTE (gothictheysay @ Jun 4 2005, 02:14 AM)
QUOTE
Speaking as one of the penisless ones, and for all my penisless friends who game. We like those costumes. They're fun and unrealistic, they're aesthetically pleasing. We design charactors wearing similar costumes and we make our own for halloween party's. It's not misogonystic just because you can see her breasts and legs and it doesn't put me off gaming (what puts me off is that I am rubbish). We may complain about them to the penised ones but that is because your male and if we don't complain you get uppity.


Well, I'm sure that some girls do like those costumes... but there are a lot of girls who don't and do feel that it's objectifying. Now I don't play a lot of video games (pretty much Tetris and Mario games on a crappy old N64), but I scoff at some outfits I've seen in advertisements... I know I'd prefer to have female characters wearing something a little more reasonable. So while you may enjoy those outfits, there's a whole lot of people who don't. By having both examples, they'd be servicing both markets.
*



This is true and I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm sick of people going "omg misogeny!!11111! No girls game because of sexist outfits," because that's not true. Some girls like the sexist outfits.
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 4 2005, 11:15 PM)
This is true and I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm sick of people going "omg misogeny!!11111! No girls game because of sexist outfits," because that's not true. Some girls like the sexist outfits.
*


But that doesn't mean it's not sexist. One single woman (or even many women) approving of something doesn't mean it's not sexist. I've heard women claiming that a man has the right to force his wife to have sex with him. It's still sexist even if women approve.
Museum Girl
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 4 2005, 11:56 PM)
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 4 2005, 11:15 PM)
This is true and I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm sick of people going "omg misogeny!!11111! No girls game because of sexist outfits," because that's not true. Some girls like the sexist outfits.
*


But that doesn't mean it's not sexist. One single woman (or even many women) approving of something doesn't mean it's not sexist. I've heard women claiming that a man has the right to force his wife to have sex with him. It's still sexist even if women approve.
*



Thing is I don't think it is sexist, it's not like nude portraits are considered sexist; and just because this isn't "art" makes it sexist? I don't think female charactors have to wear a hessian sack for it not to be sexist, or that they have to wear frumpy clothes. The mad unrealistic outfits are part of the fun. It's only sexist if it demeans women and I really don't think it does (unlike the woman who says that men have the right to force their wives).
Aislinn Faye
Someone who complains about what the women look like in the games, obviously doesn't care about the game. Should men start complaining because some men in games are portrayed as wild blood thirsty beasts? I'm straight and I'm a female, and I like the skimpy outfits...Infact I'm more willing to play an almost skin clad female character rather than a less sexy one, unless that char most definately has better stats. wink.gif
PsychWardMike
Let's face it, children... men and women both are potrayed unrealistically and sexily in video games. Meh without shirts ripped out all the way, sexy bishonen boys... girls and boys both!

And let's face it... I can't think of a female version of Voldo! That in and of itself is enough to make everything even!
Feyliya
I'm much more likely to play a sexy, fully-clothed female character than a "boobs swinging in the breeze, hemline next to panty line" character, but if there's no sensibly dressed characters available that's not going to make me not play the game. But I do know a good few girls who would be too offended to play. I deffinitely think the game designers should work in models that show less skin.

Really, on my list of things that bugs me about games today, this ranks at the very bottom of the list. Bugs that go un-fixed in MMOs and poor tech support and customer service are at the top.
Jonman
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Jun 5 2005, 04:58 AM)
Let's face it, children...  men and women both are potrayed unrealistically and sexily in video games.  Meh without shirts ripped out all the way, sexy bishonen boys...  girls and boys both!

And let's face it...  I can't think of a female version of Voldo!  That in and of itself is enough to make everything even!
*


On the other hand, there are a few games that do feature ordinarily dressed (although still quite slinky) women as the heroes.



This game, Beyond Good & Evil, actually felt really refreshing, becuase the lead character (featured above) was not a sex-kitten.
Tarantio
I just thought it wasa good game because, although it was another of those "collect stuff" platformers that are so common these days, it also had quite a dark streak in it, and played like an old sega game. Polished. Sadly my copy of it has become quite scratched and I'm not sure if it works anymore... sad.gif In general it looked absolutely gorgeous too.
Mata
It was a really good attempt to make a game that didn't go for traditional fighting dynamics and didn't 'pink' things in an attempt to appeal to women. Sadly it also utterly tanked in terms of sales. 'So what do you do?' 'You sneak around and take photos of things' 'Riiiight....'
{Gothic Angel}
Without haivng fully gone through the thread, I dont know how much of this has already been said, but...

QUOTE
Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?


There are games like this. They just aren't mainstream. Theif, for example.

QUOTE
Where's the game where we're a castaway on a deserted island and the object of the game is to find food and clean water and build a shelter, a game where we can play for one month or six months, because whether or not we get rescued is randomized? Where every time we restart we get a different island with different wildlife and vegetation and water sources?


Again, if you want a game in a similar style to this, try age of empires or civilisation. You don't have to play those as hack-and-slash games, you can quite happily win through diplomatic alliances and civilisation building. Civilisation, Settlers... Any of these games can be played that way. Ok, so you're not a solo player, but its similar.

QUOTE
Developers will be shocked one day when they notice that the world is full of women. It's true! More than half of your potential customer base are penisless. They have money. They like doing fun things.

And this is years after analysts told developers that women would happily play games if they didn't feel so objectified by them, and several decades past the point where they should have even needed to be told that. Have you guys ever met a woman? Then why don't you try making just a few games that don't play off of a 14 year-old male's idea of womanhood on the apparent hope that he'll play the game one-handed?


Ok, I will admit that she does make me think "Jesus, get a bra, girl.", but to be honest, Im playing this game for leisure. I am not an attractive, slinky person in real life. I don't want to spend my leisure time pretending to be someone who is just as dull and unattractive as me. I want to have an adventure. I want to know Kung-fu. And I want to do it all looking sexy, without getting a hair out of place.

I will admit, I do sometimes look for a new game and come up empty handed, but then again, you can just look at the games you already played and think "What if I played that in a different way?".

My point being, I guess that you don't have to hack and slash your way through everything. And you can look at the topless women and say : Yes, she's stupidly unrealistic, but at the end of the day, I dont need to worry about that, becuse, at the end of the day, she's an animated tool for me to complete this storyline in. I can enjoy the game without worrying about her. It's like reading victorian literature and forgetting that back then all the heroes were male.

And, guys... Tell me there hasn't been an animated character, game or otherwise that you wouldn't do anyday of the week.
CommieBastard
QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Jun 5 2005, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE
Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?


There are games like this. They just aren't mainstream. Theif, for example.

*



Thief is a stealth game, we've got enough of those...
MistressAlti
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 3 2005, 05:55 PM)
Speaking as one of the penisless ones, and for all my penisless friends who game. We like those costumes. They're fun and unrealistic, they're aesthetically pleasing. We design charactors wearing similar costumes and we make our own for halloween party's. It's not misogonystic just because you can see her breasts and legs and it doesn't put me off gaming (what puts me off is that I am rubbish). We may complain about them to the penised oens but that is because your male and if we don't complain you get uppity.
*


Don't speak for the entire gender on that one >_>

Sometimes, the costumes look cool and are in decent taste, even though they show a lot of skin. Other times... not so much. Personally it irritates me when I can tell that the creators were blatantly intending for sex appeal over function and style. I'm usually not offended by it, considering I know plenty of airhead females who dress and act exactly like the games portay us, but it's still disappointing. Rarely do I see a well-designed female character, but since people keep buying games that promote their opposite I doubt the industry's going to change for the few of us who aren't happy.
Museum Girl
QUOTE (MistressAlti @ Jun 6 2005, 04:59 PM)
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 3 2005, 05:55 PM)
Speaking as one of the penisless ones, and for all my penisless friends who game. We like those costumes. They're fun and unrealistic, they're aesthetically pleasing. We design charactors wearing similar costumes and we make our own for halloween party's. It's not misogonystic just because you can see her breasts and legs and it doesn't put me off gaming (what puts me off is that I am rubbish). We may complain about them to the penised oens but that is because your male and if we don't complain you get uppity.
*


Don't speak for the entire gender on that one >_>

Sometimes, the costumes look cool and are in decent taste, even though they show a lot of skin. Other times... not so much. Personally it irritates me when I can tell that the creators were blatantly intending for sex appeal over function and style. I'm usually not offended by it, considering I know plenty of airhead females who dress and act exactly like the games portay us, but it's still disappointing. Rarely do I see a well-designed female character, but since people keep buying games that promote their opposite I doubt the industry's going to change for the few of us who aren't happy.
*



That's true admittedly but I was talking about all games evreywhere because that was what the origonal post also seemed to be talking about. The article talked about how women don't want to game because all the female charactors are undressed, and I was trying to point out that wasn't the case. Yeah some games do just exploit the women = sex objects mentality (eg GTA3, which is still an awesome game) but mainly the skimpy outfits are a staple of the genre and, when charector design hasn't been ignored totally in favour of breasts, just adds to the game.

Lara Croft for example wears cargo shorts and a strappy top, but speaking as someone who has actually been on an archeological dig, you need to wear that level of clothing because it's very hot work. Try lugging a barrow full of rocks in jeans and a moddest tee shirt. Admittedly she doesn't do much of that but she does do a lot of physical activity in very hot places. It wouldn't make sense for her to wear a more modest outfit, and when (in the comics) she goes somewhere cold she does cover up. She is also not just a sex object because her games/comics have involved plots (the later games anyway, and the early games were in the day when no games really had plots) and she generally doesn't need big man to rescue her.

Most of the strert fighter females are similar, with the exception of Rose; they wear outfits which, while showing skin, are practical for fighting in and allow them to beat the crap out of the male charactors.

And final fantasy; generally well developed female charactors (not sure about ten part two, that is a bit gratuitous) who are powerful but don't wear many clothes. (I don't really play many other games although I direct your attention to guildwars)
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
Admittedly she doesn't do much of that but she does do a lot of physical activity in very hot places.
*


The first game? Underground stone tombs I would imagine would be pretty cold and not the kind of place you should be wearing hot pants in.
Jonman
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 6 2005, 07:18 PM)
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 6 2005, 06:47 PM)
Admittedly she doesn't do much of that but she does do a lot of physical activity in very hot places.
*


The first game? Underground stone tombs I would imagine would be pretty cold and not the kind of place you should be wearing hot pants in.
*



Underground stone tombs in Egypt. S'hot in Egypt, innit?
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Jonman @ Jun 6 2005, 08:09 PM)
Underground stone tombs in Egypt. S'hot in Egypt, innit?
*


Yeah, but I still think it's cold way underground. I don't know, I'm guessing here.
PsychWardMike
Comfortably cool, I'd say. Underground away from the heat, it won't be warm.
Feyliya
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 6 2005, 09:47 AM)
And final fantasy; generally well developed female charactors (not sure about ten part two, that is a bit gratuitous) who are powerful but don't wear many clothes. (I don't really play many other games although I direct your attention to guildwars)
*


I'm a rabid GW fangurl and even *I* have to admit that the female Elementalist costumes take things a touch too far. To illustrate, look here.

*edit
Oh, and for those of you who don't automatically go to the forums to read up on Woody's commentary, here's the screenshot that prompted this comic.
Jonman
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Jun 6 2005, 09:33 PM)
Comfortably cool, I'd say.  Underground away from the heat, it won't be warm.
*


Ah, but there were all them burning torches all over the place. Do you know how much heat those bad boys kick out? What do you think people did before patio heaters, eh?

Plus, if any one of us attempted to perform the cunning acrobatic feats of Ms. Croft, we'd sweat a small sea each. Hence, you need a skimpy outfit to avoid overheatage from excessive acrobaticsim.

Makes sense when you think about it.
Tarantio
QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Jun 5 2005, 07:36 PM)


And, guys... Tell me there hasn't been an animated character, game or otherwise that you wouldn't do anyday of the week.

*


Too many to count, in fact. But if you mean feminine lead roles then, admittedly, it becomes harder to think of any at all.

QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 5 2005, 08:45 PM)
QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Jun 5 2005, 08:36 PM)
QUOTE
Why isn't a there a spy game where we actually get to be a real spy rather than a hallway-roving kill machine? You know, where we actually have to talk to contacts and extract information and tap phones and piece together clues, a game full of exotic locales and deception and backstabbing and subplots? A game where a gun is used as often as a real spy would use it (that is, almost never)?


There are games like this. They just aren't mainstream. Theif, for example.

*



Thief is a stealth game, we've got enough of those...
*



Wrong. Thief is the stealth game. Looking glass didn't do what MGS claims to have done (ie. reinvent the genre). They came up with the idea of making it the focus of the game in a 3D first person environment.

And besides, the world would be a far duller place for the lack of the word "Taffer".

QUOTE (Jonman @ Jun 6 2005, 09:12 PM)
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Jun 6 2005, 09:33 PM)
Comfortably cool, I'd say.  Underground away from the heat, it won't be warm.
*


Ah, but there were all them burning torches all over the place. Do you know how much heat those bad boys kick out? What do you think people did before patio heaters, eh?

Plus, if any one of us attempted to perform the cunning acrobatic feats of Ms. Croft, we'd sweat a small sea each. Hence, you need a skimpy outfit to avoid overheatage from excessive acrobaticsim.

Makes sense when you think about it.
*



Just to counter this argument, the first "tomb" Lara raids in any of her games is high in the mountains surrounded by snow and freezing temperatures. Outside, she wears a big furry coat. When she takes it off after walking in to the cave, out come the hotpants. Which in this case can only be really thought of as coldpants.
Mata
She runs lots without getting tired and she can jump huge distances without any run-up (those sideways jumps are phenomenal. I wish I could do that). This indicates three main possibilities:

1) She is an exceptional athlete with years of training behind her that have raised her metabolism to the point where she is capable of producing the amount of energy required for these feats.

2) She has used her wealth to genetically engineer her body to be capable of such things, leading to the option that when she requires maximum movement she can voluntarily produce internal body heat through an unstated mechanism.

3) She has trained with the Llamas in Tibet to attain a higher state of spiritual being, where she is light of foot, and does not suffer from the cold. They will walk around snowy mountain tops in only a saffron robe, and there are stories from as recently as the 1970s stating that monks have been seen casually bounding across the mountain sides covering several metres in each stride.

Given her background and travelling history, I think option three is the most likely explanation.

As to whether I can think of a female character in games that I would not engage in relations with... Well, it's pretty much all of them. Like the men, most of them are psychopaths who kill without even the slightest comment. I don't fancy dating anyone scarier than I am.
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Mata @ Jun 7 2005, 01:18 AM)
As to whether I can think of a female character in games that I would not engage in relations with... Well, it's pretty much all of them. Like the men, most of them are psychopaths who kill without even the slightest comment. I don't fancy dating anyone scarier than I am.
*


Your hang-up is in fact a turn-on for many men.
Jonman
QUOTE (Tarantio @ Jun 7 2005, 12:31 AM)
Just to counter this argument, the first "tomb" Lara raids in any of her games is high in the mountains surrounded by snow and freezing temperatures.
*


And full of burning torches...
CommieBastard
From my experience with burning torches, they really don't give off much heat unless you're within about five feet of one...
Jonman
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 7 2005, 09:30 AM)
From my experience with burning torches, they really don't give off much heat unless you're within about five feet of one...
*


You've clearly had no experience with torches specifically designed for the lighting of tombs then have you?
CommieBastard
QUOTE (Jonman @ Jun 7 2005, 10:11 AM)
QUOTE (CommieBastard @ Jun 7 2005, 09:30 AM)
From my experience with burning torches, they really don't give off much heat unless you're within about five feet of one...
*


You've clearly had no experience with torches specifically designed for the lighting of tombs then have you?
*



Clearly not!
PsychWardMike
And clearly no experience with spelling the word "within." biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif tongue.gif

But seriously. Lara's a ho. Check out the VG Cats from three weeks ago for proof.
Sir Psycho Sexy
QUOTE (Feyliya @ Jun 6 2005, 08:47 PM)
QUOTE (Museum Girl @ Jun 6 2005, 09:47 AM)
And final fantasy; generally well developed female charactors (not sure about ten part two, that is a bit gratuitous) who are powerful but don't wear many clothes. (I don't really play many other games although I direct your attention to guildwars)
*


I'm a rabid GW fangurl and even *I* have to admit that the female Elementalist costumes take things a touch too far. To illustrate, look here.

*



I have to second that, the best "armour" for a monk are tattoos or "designs" all very pretty but essentially means I'm nekkid...I get so many kids trying it on its painful....funny when I tell them I am in fact a 6'4", 20 year old guy and not a diminuative blonde wearing nowt but a bra and loin cloth, covered in purple tattoos and with a penchant for healing people as my in game character so convincingly portrays!

Also, underground places are fairly well insulated against outside weather conditions so they're a fairly standard temperature all over the place, and anyway, I always thought those torches were for lighting and not a heat source.

....oh, and Mata, you missed the secret 4th option*

*she's not real! (this is small so not to upset those people who believe otherwise)
arachnidoc17
QUOTE (Mata @ Jun 6 2005, 08:18 PM)
Like the men, most of them are psychopaths who kill without even the slightest comment.
*


*cough*Kratos*cough*

Kratos, to God of War's director, in a "secret phone call" easter egg:

"If I kill you, I will get health orbs."
arachnidoc17
QUOTE ({Gothic Angel} @ Jun 5 2005, 03:36 PM)
There are games like this. They just aren't mainstream. Theif, for example.
*


Yuh-huh...

"Thief" is pretty much Splinter Cell with blackjacks and magic arrows. Good game though.
PsychWardMike
Incorrect. Splinter Cell is Theif without blackjacks and magic arrows.
arachnidoc17
And don't forget Hammerites!
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