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Drum
My CT-Scan shows illicit objects in my throat, and this visual evidence is an indisputable fact and would be the BEST and CLEAREST on the Net.

This fact is accepted by John Williams, who has stated to me in an email “shocking and important evidence of the existence of electronic implants”.

Mr John Williams is a former Senior Electronics Design Engineer; Professor of Computer Science (NMSU); Electronics Weapons Design Engineer (Navy, Air Force); and Health Physicist (NIH), which leaves me with no doubt that he is very experienced and qualified to identify what he sees.

Mr Williams has my CT-Scan images on his web sites and agrees to the objects I have mentioned and further adds, “He sees other strange, 'objects,' do you?” --- Below, links for John Williams’ remarks:
Consumertronics Mind Control, ElectronicAttack,Implants…
Consumertronics Mind Control,Electronic Attack,Urban Legends,Aliens

http://www.consumertronics.net/weird

My CT-Scan images can be viewed at http://www.haroldholt.net on pages 2, 4 and 5 of this web site. My evidence also involves the murder and disappearance of an Australian Prime Minister, Harold Holt, in 1967.

This web site has no commercial value at all for me, and never will have, as the evidence and images can be used freely by anyone who has good intent to expose the truth. I will never change this view and I give anyone consent and/or authority to copy and use in any form, my documentation and images to expose this evidence on my behalf. The only thing I ask, is that acknowledgement is given to the http://www.haroldholt.net web site that contains this abuse of Civil and Human Rights.

No, I am not a victim nor do I fear them, as ‘they’ are not my GOD, but I do need support to expose this evidence.

May I add, I will never prostitute my evidence as we see all over the Internet because that act distorts truth and turns it into bull****. [No swearing please - Mata] This evidence needs to be exposed, as I believe my CT-Scan is the proof of illegal E.T. technology being used on Earth.

Drum
Usurper MrTeapot
Hmm, I'm a little skeptical about this post.

The http://www.consumertronics.net/weird doesn't exist.

http://www.haroldholt.net looks like a 12 year old designed the site.

And I always hoped E.T tech would involve more Alien films.
Calantyr
The opening post lacks details on alien anal-probing. I declare it to be lacking in credability!
Mata
Right, let's compare a few things:

Your throat scan: http://www.haroldholt.net/CT_Scan.jpg

You mention the 'elbow' bend in your trachea. That would be the one that appears in this diagram of the neck? : http://www.hnsaonline.com/images/b4laryn.jpg

You may also note that the 'object' in your throat appears in the scan of a complete stranger: http://soul.scan.swin.edu.au/~hinnesbrown/...images/0008.jpg

To me it looks just like an epiglotis, which would be found in that position, and is perfectly natural. I can't really see anything stange there.

The shades on your scans really look like accumalated scar tissue to me, left over from the surgery on your throat to remove lymph gland tissue in 1971. Of course, I'm no specialist, but surely if they were metallic then they would show up like the fillings in your teeth, rather than as shadows resembling organic material?

Surely the enlargement of your heart is due to you previous experience as a diver? The diving pressures would require your heart to become extremely strong to enable you to operate without dizziness. Equally, I once knew a man with twice the average lung capacity. Unusual organ sizes are not overly uncommon. Occupational changes in the vody can occur in many professions, for example, horse riders have been known to spontaneously grow bones in their postetrior. It's strange, but nature can be like that.

The missing documentation is intriguing, but I have worked in various professional establishments, including hospitals, and I have seen the franklly nightmarish state of their filing systems, which brings to mind the possibility that this is a case for the application of "Hanlon's Razor", i.e. never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I am unable to understand why a object in your throat would prevent you from being able to write or spell, but I also wonder what motive the Navy could possibly have had to operate on you to achieve this effect. To my mind it would be more likely that trauma as a result of your operation and illness caused your mind to shut off aspects of itself naturally. The fact that these facilities are now returning to you when you have constructed a theory to explain it all would suggest that this is a psychological issue, not a physical one. Why else would these facilities return now, when you have established a narrative to explain it all?

You yourself state that your throat was damaged during a mission, and so isn't it possible then that the any unusual structure there is the result of an unchecked healing process? Keloid lumps remaining from earlier damage could appear as shadows on a scan.

This leaves the real crux of the issue:

What exactly are you saying your involvement was with the disappearence of Harold Holt? What was the nature of the job? Who told you to do this? Who else was there to witness it?

If you are convinced that the items in your throat are objects that have been put there by the Navy then approach a television company. I'm sure that with a bit of searching you'll find a place willing to pay for surgery to remove the objects, probably with cameras running in the room on live television, so no-one could be in any doubt. If you're right then it could change a lot of things, but currently you have your word and some (possibly natural) shadows on a scan, neither of which is going to convince the world.
Astarael
How exactly do you believe any of this to be connected with the murder? This seems somewhat unclear, and as Mata said, none of the suspicious areas seem to have metal in them. How do you figure that it's ET technology instead of advanced human technology, anyway?
I'm not really sure that a few vague shadows on an X-ray are proof of alien and government involvement in a murder. A bit more analysis of what's stuck in your throat and a bit less specualtion would be helpful in persuading people. How exactly were you involved, and do you remember anything? Cold hard facts are necessary to convincing everyone of what you believe to be the truth.
Drum
QUOTE (MrTeapot @ Sep 19 2005, 12:24 AM)
Hmm, I'm a little skeptical about this post.

The http://www.consumertronics.net/weird doesn't exist.

http://www.haroldholt.net looks like a 12 year old designed the site.

And I always hoped E.T tech would involve more Alien films.
*


This link http://www.consumertronics.net/weird works from the http://www.haroldholt.net web site --- I don't know why it's not working here ---

The site has no commercial value to me as my only intent is to expose these issues --- not for attention --- and people will only see what they want to see or what the Media tells them what to see ----

Drum
Phyllis
QUOTE (Drum @ Sep 18 2005, 03:02 PM)
The site has no commercial value to me as my only intent is to expose these issues --- not for attention --- and people will only see what they want to see or what the Media tells them what to see ----
*

But either way, people generally require evidence. You still didn't answer any of Mata's questions...particularly why none of the areas have metal in them if they're electronic devices.

You can't just tell us that we're blindly following what the media tells us to see simply because we don't believe your rather shoddy evidence. That's like praising someone for reading a supermarket tabloid rather than watching CNN. tongue.gif
Drum
QUOTE (Mata @ Sep 19 2005, 02:03 AM)
Right, let's compare a few things:

Your throat scan: http://www.haroldholt.net/CT_Scan.jpg

You mention the 'elbow' bend in your trachea. That would be the one that appears in this diagram of the neck? : http://www.hnsaonline.com/images/b4laryn.jpg

You may also note that the 'object' in your throat appears in the scan of a complete stranger: http://soul.scan.swin.edu.au/~hinnesbrown/...images/0008.jpg

To me it looks just like an epiglotis, which would be found in that position, and is perfectly natural. I can't really see anything stange there.

The shades on your scans really look like accumalated scar tissue to me, left over from the surgery on your throat to remove lymph gland tissue in 1971. Of course, I'm no specialist, but surely if they were metallic then they would show up like the fillings in your teeth, rather than as shadows resembling organic material?

Surely the enlargement of your heart is due to you previous experience as a diver? The diving pressures would require your heart to become extremely strong to enable you to operate without dizziness. Equally, I once knew a man with twice the average lung capacity. Unusual organ sizes are not overly uncommon. Occupational changes in the vody can occur in many professions, for example, horse riders have been known to spontaneously grow bones in their postetrior. It's strange, but nature can be like that.

The missing documentation is intriguing, but I have worked in various professional establishments, including hospitals, and I have seen the franklly nightmarish state of their filing systems, which brings to mind the possibility that this is a case for the application of "Hanlon's Razor", i.e. never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I am unable to understand why a object in your throat would prevent you from being able to write or spell, but I also wonder what motive the Navy could possibly have had to operate on you to achieve this effect. To my mind it would be more likely that trauma as a result of your operation and illness caused your mind to shut off aspects of itself naturally. The fact that these facilities are now returning to you when you have constructed a theory to explain it all would suggest that this is a psychological issue, not a physical one. Why else would these facilities return now, when you have established a narrative to explain it all?

You yourself state that your throat was damaged during a mission, and so isn't it possible then that the any unusual structure there is the result of an unchecked healing process? Keloid lumps remaining from earlier damage could appear as shadows on a scan.

This leaves the real crux of the issue:

What exactly are you saying your involvement was with the disappearence of Harold Holt? What was the nature of the job? Who told you to do this? Who else was there to witness it?

If you are convinced that the items in your throat are objects that have been put there by the Navy then approach a television company. I'm sure that with a bit of searching you'll find a place willing to pay for surgery to remove the objects, probably with cameras running in the room on live television, so no-one could be in any doubt. If you're right then it could change a lot of things, but currently you have your word and some (possibly natural) shadows on a scan, neither of which is going to convince the world.
*


If you believe in what you write so be it but the CT-Scan images you put up only supports the evidence contained in mine.

John Williams who was a Electronics Weapons Design Engineer (Navy and Air Force)
agrees that my CT-Scan shows implants in my throat.

This link http://www.consumertronics.net/weird works from the http://www.haroldholt.net web site I don't know why it does not work from this site --- still, you should have viewed his site before you gave your opinion on what you see ---

I am only trying to expose these issues and we all know how the Media conceals Truth just look at what happened to the truth with 9/11 and Port Arthur and we all know there are many more.

May be you work for some Government Department and write with some motive because the http://www.haroldholt.net web site --- is what it is ---

Drum
Mata
Actually, I don't see anything to do with the media in this case, I'm working entirely on the evidence presented on your website and raising responses based on what I've seen there. I have only the vaguest idea about Australian history and almost no knowledge of who was prime minister, let alone when this happened or how/when they died. For all I know you could be making up the name 'Harold Holt' completely. I am purely asking questions based on what you have presented on your site.

It's certainly an interesting story that you present, but there are many questions that your site does not answer.

I think that before I continue maybe I should make something clear: this is not a community of people who will automtically doubt people's stories and we are not so naive that when faced with evidence we will still trust a government; however, we are a community that has reasonable expectations of a burden of proof.

For example, in the OJ Simpson case, while many on here will accept that it is likely that he killed Nicole Simpson, the evidence against him did not approach the level of being 'beyond reasonable doubt' and so I we are the kind of group to accept that, because (I believe) that in the same kind of situation we would want to be judged innocent without reasonable evidence.

So this is what it comes down to: reasonable evidence. Currently we just have your word and some ambiguous shapes on a scan that could, frankly, be almost anything. I'm sure you've had countless people question you in the past, but please let me assure you that we're not a group that's interested in disproving you, we just want to know the whole story. Once we have a clear idea of what you are saying then we can begin to form our own opinion.

To put it in blunt terms, all we have at the moment is your word and a few scans that don't show anything to an untrained eye; even Queensland Diagnostic Imaging stated that 'no significant sonographic abnormality has been demonstrated'. Any reader would assume that they might mention if the scan showed up extra-terrestrial technology implanted in your neck. Most readers would classify such technology as a significant sonographic abnormality, so you need to establish why that scanning department did not identify that shadows on your scan as unusual.

My questions from my previous post remain:

If the items in your neck are metallic then why don't they would show up like the fillings in your teeth, rather than as shadows resembling organic material?

Surely the enlargement of your heart is due to you previous experience as a diver?

What exactly are you saying your involvement was with the disappearence of Harold Holt?

What was the nature of the job?

Who told you to do this?

Who else was there to witness it?

Believe me when I say that I am as ready as the next liberal to doubt the word of governments, but I am also quite scientific in my approach and need good answers before assuming a conspiracy. I'm sure that you understand that any nut could get a lawyer to draw up papers, but actual evidence is far harder to come by. If, as you believe, you have mysterious alien implants in your neck, then it shouldn't be too hard to convince someone to remove them for you, and that would really be great evidence.
Mata
Additional:

Drum, I think that fact that I have been running this website for many years now is pretty good evidence that I don't work for a goverment agency, and even if I did it wouldn't be your government. Hell, if I did work for the government I'd certainly hope I'd be better paid than the living I manage to scrabble together!

You like believing that every shadow contains an enemy don't you? The links on your site go to http://www.consumertronics.net/weird.htm not http://www.consumertronics.net/weird as you have repeatedly posted in this thread. No conspiracy there, it's just you not typing in the correct website address. Stop thinking that everyone is trying to get you.

All I see on that 'consumertronics' website is a load of conspiracy hokum and pyramidiocy with absolultely no proof to back it up. Any 'evidence' they have might be supplied in a book, but those you have to pay for. I thought that the truth would free itself? Not on that site: you have to pay for the chance to read it.

That site gives you no back up at all, and if John Williams really believed that there are implants in your throat then why didn't he help you get them removed?

How precisely does a throat implant manage to change only your ability to write but not anything to do with your ability to read?

Please see this from our perspective: you have been living your life with these events for thirty years but we are only seeing it as a snapshot. There is a huge amount of information that is missing, and most important of all is physical evidence.

Do you agree that something metal in your neck would look like you fillings on an X-ray? If so, then what do you believe that the things in your neck are made of? They can't have a radioactive power-source otherwise they would have fogged the X-ray plate, so what non-metalic power-source has been driving them for thirty years? That power-source could solve the energy problems of all-mankind. If the non-metalic item in your neck is capable of not only powering itself of for thirty years but limiting the function of a very specific section of your brain then the technology must be amazing. The technology must be particularly astonishing considering that, as seen on page four of your website, the blobs have no contact with your spinal cord. If you could get the technology out and in public then it would be of huge benefit to mankind because it is clearly far in advance of anything that we have ever known about.

I missed out an important question from my previous post: what motive did the Navy have in operating on you to achieve this effect? Why would they want to do this to a member of their own forces?

The questions that we are asking you here are not unreasonable, and they are not answered on your website or the other one. If you really do believe what you are saying (and I have no reason to doubt that you do) then please answer them. For all I know you might be telling the absolute truth and this thread on my website could be the beginnings of global enlightenment. I've love that, so please take your time to answer the doubts of people.

There's no need to be defensive. You assume that we believe the media and the government, but frankly I find both of them massively untrustworthy. We are interested in the truth as you see it. If we doubt you then it just means that you haven't given us enough evidence to convince us, and, frankly, if you can't convince a load of people on a forum then how do you expect to convince a jury? Tell us more. Give us the chance to believe you, don't just say that we're part of a media conspiracy because we don't instantly believe everything you say. We're not gullible: we don't believe everything on the news or said by the government, but that also means that we don't believe everything told to us by some guy on a website. Convince us. I'm fascinated to find out more. Tell us more about your role in the death of the Harold Holt; that's probably a good place to start.

EDIT: To put this in the most blunt possible terms, if a guy came running up to you on the street and told you that he'd been enveloped in a govenrment conspiracy involving alien technology, would you immediately believe him, or would you want to listen to his whole story first to check that he's not comletely insane? We just want to hear your story.
Jonman
QUOTE (Drum @ Sep 18 2005, 11:35 PM)
I am only trying to expose these issues and we all know how the Media conceals Truth just look at what happened to the truth with 9/11 and Port Arthur and we all know there are many more.

*


Firstly, I am instantly suspicious of anyone that spells 'truth' with a captial T. And quite rightly so.

Secondly, why don't you recap for us what we 'all know' about how the Media (another unnecessary capital there too - very suspicious - maybe YOU work for the government) conceals the TRUTH. Just to remind us, you know.

Additionally, what did happen to the truth of 9/11? And what's Port Arthur?

I'd also like to reiterate Mata's point, that if a bloke comes up to you and tells you that his government perfored secret surgery on him to implant alien technology into him, you can understand how you would think that that person is a complete loon, right? It doesn't look good.


But then again, maybe that's because the Man has Pulled the Wool over our EYES......
Traveler
I have seen and read everything contained on Drums website and after reading all the replies to his post here, I felt compelled to add and express my own opinions on this matter.

Come on; give the man some credit here for coming forward to expose the truth of the deceit that is happening in every corner of the globe, and it is happening. He has not hidden his identity from anyone. He stands there completely exposed and his address and phone # is all accessible on the net. I think this in itself shows the strong character of the man, so I doubt very much that he is concerned about every corner containing a shadow.

As for the content of a couple of unintelligent sharp one liners posted here by the members, are they really necessary. Have a little compassion because obviously you aren't aware of how many people out there have been experimented on through various mind control techniques. Personally I think the one's who have come forward must have very strong minds and are strong willed to have survived and speak of it.

I have been around to a lot of websites in search of the truth and have been going to various forums both observing and participating in discussions. I am truly astonished at the level of intelligence out there yet, ironically some of these people lack both common sense and logic. It's such a shame really because they could use their intelligence in a positive manner rather than in the negative.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there on the net alone on the subjects of implants, mind control and cybernetics and it's freely available to read if only you want to take the time and if only you are prepared to look for the truth in regards to this. It has been said that "A wise man knows he is a fool yet, only a fool would think he is only wise"

So, if I may make a suggestion without a pack of wolves coming in to feed, go out there and do some research on these particular subjects. Not just in one area, read through a few of them. Perhaps then you may start to get a picture of what this man and others are trying to expose and you might start to understand just how deceitful our Governments and Media are.

Of course, this is each and every person's choice whether to do so or not and you are all still entitled to your views and opinions on this. However, if you choose not to look for the truth on this matter then enjoy them while you still have them because the cold hard facts are that they will be the last of our freedoms. When our Governments decide 'FOR THE SAFEST SECURITY AND PROTECTION OF YOUR ASSETS IN AN EVER GROWING UNSAFE WORLD, THE ONLY OPTION IS TO IMPLANT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD WITH THE BIO-CHIP'.

Advertising is already underway under various names. Bio-chip, Verichip, Digital Angel. After reading some of the mind control and implant websites, think about what the implications of this means to the future of humanity.

Personally, I do hope more people start asking questions and looking for the truth very soon because one more person who knows the truth is one less person deceived.

I wish you all well.

QUOTE (Jonman @ Sep 19 2005, 09:09 AM)
QUOTE (Drum @ Sep 18 2005, 11:35 PM)

I am only trying to expose these issues and we all know how the Media conceals Truth just look at what happened to the truth with 9/11 and Port Arthur and we all know there are many more.

*


Firstly, I am instantly suspicious of anyone that spells 'truth' with a captial T. And quite rightly so.

Secondly, why don't you recap for us what we 'all know' about how the Media (another unnecessary capital there too - very suspicious - maybe YOU work for the government) conceals the TRUTH. Just to remind us, you know.

Additionally, what did happen to the truth of 9/11? And what's Port Arthur?

I'd also like to reiterate Mata's point, that if a bloke comes up to you and tells you that his government perfored secret surgery on him to implant alien technology into him, you can understand how you would think that that person is a complete loon, right? It doesn't look good.


But then again, maybe that's because the Man has Pulled the Wool over our EYES......
*

trunks_girl26
QUOTE (Traveler @ Sep 20 2005, 02:53 AM)
I have seen and read everything contained on Drums website and after reading all the replies to his post here, I felt compelled to add and express my own opinions on this matter.

Come on; give the man some credit here for coming forward to expose the truth of the deceit that is happening in every corner of the globe, and it is happening. He has not hidden his identity from anyone. He stands there completely exposed and his address and phone # is all accessible on the net. I think this in itself shows the strong character of the man, so I doubt very much that he is concerned about every corner containing a shadow.


No, I'm afraid that that doesn't show caracter, just naivete as to who could be looking at this information. And just what proof have you two displayed besides some very shoddy websites and some x-rays that suppossedly expose the "Truth."

QUOTE
As for the content of a couple of unintelligent sharp one liners posted here by the members, are they really necessary. Have a little compassion because obviously you aren't aware of how many people out there have been experimented on through various mind control techniques. Personally I think the one's who have come forward must have very strong minds and are strong willed to have survived and speak of it.


Actually, for all the 'sharp one-liners' that have been posted, it seems Mata has posed some crutial questions that have yet to been addressed by Drum. When one posts on a public forum, one can not expect to just state an opinion or a theory (which is what this infact is) without some sort of believable -key word believable proof.

QUOTE
I have been around to a lot of websites in search of the truth and have been going to various forums both observing and participating in discussions. I am truly astonished at the level of intelligence out there yet, ironically some of these people lack both common sense and logic. It's such a shame really because they could use their intelligence in a positive manner rather than in the negative.

There is a wealth of knowledge out there on the net alone on the subjects of implants, mind control and cybernetics and it's freely available to read if only you want to take the time and if only you are prepared to look for the truth in regards to this. It has been said that "A wise man knows he is a fool yet, only a fool would think he is only wise"


See, what many people don't realize is that any Joe Schmoe can create a website, but just because it is there doesn't mean it is credible- let alone the "Truth." And it's also been said the "Fools rush in where angel's fear to tread" wink.gif

QUOTE
So, if I may make a suggestion without a pack of wolves coming in to feed, go out there and do some research on these particular subjects. Not just in one area, read through a few of them. Perhaps then you may start to get a picture of what this man and others are trying to expose and you might start to understand just how deceitful our Governments and Media are.


Well, count me as the first of the wolves then. Again, there's quite a difference between a source and creible source. Unless those who have been attacked by The Man are clearly too shaken up about it to speak coherently about their experience (couldn't get away without my own one-liner, ne?)

QUOTE
Of course, this is each and every person's choice whether to do so or not and you are all still entitled to your views and opinions on this. However, if you choose not to look for the truth on this matter then enjoy them while you still have them because the cold hard facts are that they will be the last of our freedoms. When our Governments decide 'FOR THE SAFEST SECURITY AND PROTECTION OF YOUR ASSETS IN AN EVER GROWING UNSAFE WORLD, THE ONLY OPTION IS TO IMPLANT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD WITH THE BIO-CHIP'.

Advertising is already underway under various names. Bio-chip, Verichip, Digital Angel. After reading some of the mind control and implant websites, think about what the implications of this means to the future of humanity.

Personally, I do hope more people start asking questions and looking for the truth very soon because one more person who knows the truth is one less person deceived.

I wish you all well.


And until such time as those who have been 'victimized' by The Man are able to present plausible arguments to others and not assume that everyone will blindly follow anyone preaching about The Man there will be fewer people believe it.
Jonman
QUOTE (Traveler @ Sep 20 2005, 03:53 AM)
Come on; give the man some credit here for coming forward to expose the truth of the deceit that is happening in every corner of the globe, and it is happening. He has not hidden his identity from anyone. He stands there completely exposed and his address and phone # is all accessible on the net. I think this in itself shows the strong character of the man, so I doubt very much that he is concerned about every corner containing a shadow.


Let's suppose I set up a website called www.jellyisthedevil.com
Let's suppose I post some blurry photographs which I claim are incontravertible proof that jelly is a tool of the Devil.

Question: is your first response to burn all the jelly in your house, or to raise one eyebrow screptically and click the small X in the top right of the window?

Because there's an awful lot of rubbish, crank conspiracy theories and utter bunk on the internet. I wait to be convinced, rather that naively believing anything I read on my computer screen. To be honest, I see nothing in Drum's story that puts it above websites claiming that the Moon landings were faked, that Elvis works in the author's local pub, or any number of other conspiracies. I don't say this because I have a personal vendetta against Drum, rather because of years of experience of reading lies, spin and make-believe dressed up as fact.

QUOTE (Traveler @ Sep 20 2005, 03:53 AM)
As for the content of a couple of unintelligent sharp one liners posted here by the members, are they really necessary. Have a little compassion because obviously you aren't aware of how many people out there have been experimented on through various mind control techniques. Personally I think the one's who have come forward must have very strong minds and are strong willed to have survived and speak of it.


THAT'S MY POINT! I am not aware of how many people have been experimented on by mind control techniques. It's up to people like you to present me with incotravertable evidence and convince me. And I'm not convinced yet.
In light of that, the one liners are very necessary, yes. They add a little light entertainment to a subject that currently occupies the same mental space of credibility as 9/11 conspiracy theories.

QUOTE (Traveler @ Sep 20 2005, 03:53 AM)
So, if I may make a suggestion without a pack of wolves coming in to feed, go out there and do some research on these particular subjects. Not just in one area, read through a few of them. Perhaps then you may start to get a picture of what this man and others are trying to expose and you might start to understand just how deceitful our Governments and Media are.

Perhaps I can make a counter suggestion. Perhaps Drum should be the one doing the research - after all, he's the one trying to convince us of his story. And by research, I don't mean typing 'mind control implants' into Google, then quoting every page that's returned. Because, as I've mentioned, any idiot can create a website claiming any old hokum. The burden of proof is on him trying to convince us.
Mata
TG has made a lot of fair points, but I'd like to add a few things.

BTW, I'm guessing that the fact that Traveller and Drum are accessing using the same interner provider speaks to the testament of that provider's popularity in Australia rather than an Australian conspiracy to gang up on anyone who doesn't show blind faith in anything that they're told.

QUOTE
I have seen and read everything contained on Drums website and after reading all the replies to his post here, I felt compelled to add and express my own opinions on this matter.

It's nice that you've decided to join my forum and share these thoughts as your very first post. Again, the coincidence that your first post and Drum's first post happen to both be about this topic, which has never before been raised on my forums, must just be an impressive coincidence. I'm sure you would have mentioned if you know each-other in real life, wouldn't you, rather than pretending to be a complete stranger who happens to believe his entire story?

You also said "Come on; give the man some credit here for coming forward to expose the truth of the deceit that is happening in every corner of the globe, and it is happening."
Once again, the key here is providing evidence. All that is shown on the website is scans showing some darker areas of non-metallic matter in his neck and documents showing that he is very serious about what he is saying. I'm sure that no-one who has read the site doubts his certainty, but unfortunately there are some very large questions raised by it. All I have done is ask some of those questions. I have not once called him a liar, I have simply requested clarification. Given the seriousness of the accusations he is making I think it is fair that questions are asked.

QUOTE
He has not hidden his identity from anyone. He stands there completely exposed and his address and phone # is all accessible on the net. I think this in itself shows the strong character of the man, so I doubt very much that he is concerned about every corner containing a shadow.

Drum accused me of being a representative of the government because I asked for further information when it was he who chose to come and post this on my website. That is pretty paranoid. If a person believes that anyone who asks for more information is a representative of government or a media conspiracy then I would say that the person could be described as jumping at shadows.

Putting your details in the public domain is done by thousands of people every day and indicates nothing of character. As I said before, he clearly believes what he is saying and so of course he will want to be seen to be making a public stand against oppression. His convictions are not in doubt here, it is the reality of his interpretation of the world that is in doubt.

Have you ever read Don Quixote? It's very good, I highly recommend it. It's about a brave and noble knight who goes around slaying giants and suchlike. Except that he's just a guy who's read too many books about being a knight and the giants are just windmills. Don Quixote had great character and was admired by many, but that didn't mean he was deluded. Once again, we are not saying outright that Drum is deluded, we are only asking for more information because what is provided on that website actually says very little.

QUOTE
As for the content of a couple of unintelligent sharp one liners

Unintelligent and sharp? That's a good trick.

QUOTE
Have a little compassion because obviously you aren't aware of how many people out there have been experimented on through various mind control techniques. Personally I think the one's who have come forward must have very strong minds and are strong willed to have survived and speak of it.

Or they might be very strongly paranoid. Strength of conviction does not equate to being right. I don't give a damn about strength of conviction: I am only asking for more information.

QUOTE
I have been around to a lot of websites in search of the truth

Ah, the truth. I knew we'd get there eventually. Who's truth is that? What truth is that? The true secret ingredient for KFC? The mix for Coca-Cola? That both of these are mind-control drugs put in there by the government to keep the population sedated?

....


I'm making that up you know, please don't go start thinking that just because you've read on my website that it is now suddenly 'the truth'.

QUOTE
I am truly astonished at the level of intelligence out there yet, ironically some of these people lack both common sense and logic. It's such a shame really because they could use their intelligence in a positive manner rather than in the negative.

Once again:

If a guy came running up to you on the street and told you that he'd been enveloped in a government conspiracy involving alien technology, would you immediately believe him, or would you want to listen to his whole story first to check that he's not completely insane?

We are asking for the full story but you are responding as if we are going to dismiss his claims without reading his side of things. You write about 'logic' and 'common sense' but both of these dictate that people ask questions. 'Logic' is not blind acceptance of a conspiracy theory with no evidence. There is no proof that the shadows on those X-rays are alien technology, and that is one hell of a leap of faith. There is no proof for the claims that Harold Holt was murdered, but we are asked to believe that too. Given that the later seems more likely, I asked for further details about it, things that might be verifiable to at least corroborate aspects of it if not the full thing, but have had only your suspicion as an answer. Logic is about asking these questions. Logic dictates that the most likely theory is right. Common sense dictates that the most likely theory is right. What you are describing is neither of these, you are describing 'faith', which is something very different.

I've not called Drum a liar, a lunatic, or a fool. I read his site and asked questions. Personally, at the moment, logic dictates that he is deluding himself. Once again, I refer you to the comments of the two doctors that performed the scans on Drum's neck:

[apart from a sinus problem and some cartilage damage] no additional abnormality is noted - Dr J Edwards, 5th March 1997

No significant sonographic abnormality has been noted - Dr M Aitken, 11th July 2000

Now, let's apply logic here, what is more likely:

option 1: that two trained doctors that look at thousands of body scans every year would miss alien implants in a person's neck

option 2: that the doctors are part of a global government conspiracy to hide alien technology implants so didn't mention them in the images but gave Mr Simmons untreated scans containing damning proof of their lies by mistake. Twice.

option 3: the shadows in the neck are perfectly normal aspects of human physiology and Mr Simmons seeing alien implants in the shadows is a reflection of a wide social paranoia relating to fear of advanced technology and a sense of loss at traditional communities and organisations.

Both logic and common sense point to option 3. If you disagree then please explain your process of logic to me, I will be very interested to hear it.

QUOTE
There is a wealth of knowledge out there on the net alone on the subjects of implants, mind control and cybernetics

There is also a wealth of knowledge about the Klingon empire, believed in by millions, but this does not make it a reality.

QUOTE
So, if I may make a suggestion without a pack of wolves coming in to feed, go out there and do some research on these particular subjects.

Is it worth mentioning that I did reasearch on conspiracy theories for an MA module and spent three months reading conspiracy websites? Oh, I'm also doing a PhD in a field studying the assimilation of cybernetics into mainstream life and the cultural responses to this. I've spent the last six and a half years of my life looking at the fear caused by high technology and the way that it causes groups to construct quasi-religious interpretations of the world around them.

I figured it might be worth mentioning that, before you tell me once again that I don't know what I'm talking about.

QUOTE
Not just in one area, read through a few of them. Perhaps then you may start to get a picture of what this man and others are trying to expose and you might start to understand just how deceitful our Governments and Media are.

I doubt you'll find many, if any, people on this forum that would disagree with your statement that governments lie, but they are also really inept.

QUOTE
Personally, I do hope more people start asking questions and looking for the truth very soon because one more person who knows the truth is one less person deceived.

Ah, there's 'the truth' again. At least you're not putting it in capital letters.

What if the truth is that Mr Simmons is slightly paranoid, he would actually prefer to continue believing that he has alien implants in his neck because that prevents him from feeling responsible for his own flaws, that the masses of conspiracy theories on the internet are actually based on a human psychological reaction to a secular period of history demanding faith in a metanarrative that explains events that individuals don't understand, and that in reality there isn't any evidence for alien mind control chips?

All I asked for is more information from Drum. I've done a lot of reading about 'mind control chips' but have never found any of it at all convincing, so I was really quie excited at the opportunity to discuss this with a person who claims to be implanted. I was hoping that this wouldn't turn into an ideological debate where I keep getting told 'you're denying The Truth!' but it seems it will turn into that. That's a great shame, because I was genuinely looking forward to the chance to discuss this with a person who has been directly effected by this phenomena. In that regard, I don't really care whether Drum is right or not, I was interested to hear a first-hand story of how a person comes to the conclusion that they have alien implants in their neck. If Drum still wants to tell this story then I ask that he goes back to my previous post and answers my questions.

I'll let you in on a secret: I like the idea of massive government unorthodox mind-control conspiracies (there are many everyday mind-control experiments, but there's no secret in advertising or media manipulation such as in the coverage of the recent Iraq war justification, I'm talking here about mobile phones controlling your brain, chemicals deliberately tested on populations etc.). I like the idea that humans have and understand alien technology. I'd love it if Drum proved that he was implanted with a chip thirty-five years ago. I'd love it even more if the chip was removed and shown to the world. Unfortunately logic and common sense argue that none of these are true, but I really enjoy thinking about them!

EDIT: I can't seem to get the quotes indenting properly, my apologies, it's probably a government conspiracy to prevent me discovering The Truth wink.gif
EDIT2: fixed
pgrmdave
No government conspiracy with the quotes, there is simply a limit of ten quotes per post - more than that and none will show up.
Mata
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that setting! I bet The Media made up that setting to prevent free exchange of ideas though...
Calantyr
Very well, I hereby apologise for my 'unintelligent' yet 'sharp' one liner. I see that the humour and sarcasm was lost on you.

It was a response to you (or the original poster, let it not be said that I discount coincidences entirely) posting accusations of mass government manipulation and collusion with extra-terrestrials without supplying any sources of credable proof. No I was not convinced by those websites, one of which could not be accessed and the other one looking like it was made by a hyperactive 12 year old with ADD. Not only that, the evidence seemed to be grasping at straws. It was trying to concont vast webs of intrigue from the very mundane occurance of some light discolourations on those scans.

I've seen these conspiracy theories across the net. Just because someone thinks that they are in the centre of a vast conspiracy does not make it so. These range from CIA watching your every move, having memories wiped every evening and having them replaced, being stalked by vampires, etc. And yes, anal probing does feature too, though I have no idea why aliens would have a fixation with that.

Wit is a way of breaking up debates that may become heated and strained. It helps focus minds and cause the participents to take a breather before their judgement is clouded by their own rhetoric. I try to inject at least a little into most of my posts, though whether it succeeds or falls flat on its face is another matter entirely. Use it to reflect and ask why someone should say such a thing.

Now as for accusing us of being closeminded... you do know what forum you are on, correct? This forum posses some great minds and nearly everyone is acutely aware that they do not possess all the answers. Some, like me, may believe that they posses no answers at all, and probably not even correct questions.

You say we blindly accept the media and the government at face value, then you turn around and ask us to do exactly the same thing with what you say? That yells hypocracy to my ears. Either provide evidence with at least SOME credability, or blatantly state that it is simply opinion. Do not think us arrogant or foolish simply because you do not know how to initiate an argument.

I am of the OPINION that such wild accusation of conspiracy, such as these, do nothing but cheapen those with credible reason for believing they exist. Take the Iraq war for instance. It is impossible to have a debate involving the event and governmental conspiracy without someone invoking the spirit of the X-Files or the like.

Conspiracy theories undoubtably exist, they have been proven to throughout the history of civilisation. We are aware of this. However I am not going to believe the conspiracy theory that says dolphins are the actual rulers of the planet just because some random person on the 'net said so.


All that said, I still think Gearge W. Bush is simply a monkey in a robotic man suit. Once he has crushed our ability to think rationally with his mangled English he will force the human race to work on vast banana plantations. Curse you, you damned dirty apes!

(Yes, I am aware that a monkey is not an ape.)
Mata
Just to clarify: the user data of Drum and 'Traveler' indicates it's likely that they're not the same person, but given the low percentage of Australian members on my forum and some other data similarities it does seem pretty likely that they're friends. This doesn't change their stories at all, but I thought it was worth highlighting that Traveler was most likley not an impartial judge. Nothing to see here, move along please.
pgrmdave
QUOTE
Mr John Williams is a former Senior Electronics Design Engineer; Professor of Computer Science (NMSU); Electronics Weapons Design Engineer (Navy, Air Force); and Health Physicist (NIH), which leaves me with no doubt that he is very experienced and qualified to identify what he sees.


I've searched the NIH records, but there are too many John Williams to contact, do you have an email address where we could contact him, preferrably via NIH, the Navy or Air Force, NMSU, or Lockheed Martin, where he worked as the Senior Electronics Design Engineer, according to this site: http://www.tsc-global.com/ , where it also says that he is a liscensed real estate sales person in New Mexico, perhaps I can contact him via the Better Business Bureau?

EDIT:

Even better, I looked at this site (the New Mexico Government Licensing search), and found this information:

Williams John Joseph Sales Person
38999 4/21/2003 5/31/2006 Inactive INACTIVE LICENSEES 5200 Oakland Avenue NE Suite B Albuquerque NM 87113 5052229822

WILLIAMS JOHN LEROY Sales Person
33852 12/5/1995 1/31/2002 Expired INACTIVE LICENSEES 5200 Oakland Avenue NE Suite B Albuquerque NM 87113 5052229822

So, we have it narrowed down to these two people, we have middle names, addresses, phone numbers, and a possible way to contact him. I'm very interested in why the only person to verify your records was in America, and not Austrailia. Why not go to a more local doctor?

EDIT2:

I've looked on the NIH website, and I can't find any reference to John J Williams or John L Williams. Where is he currently working? There are a few John Williams without any middle initial, but they are working elsewhere (one is at the University of Kentucky, the other one is only a reference to having helped with a project.)
Astarael
No one here is trying to bash your story, but you are acting the way that the you claim the government acts. You are feeding us dubious information and refusing to answer reasonable and logical questions that we are asking for clarification. If you would like to be taken seriously and to be believed, you need to supply some exact information. No matter how much we would like to believe you, we cannot accept what you're saying with answers.
Every tentative or outright question we've asked has been met with hot-headed rhetoric that we were "denying the Truth." As Terry Pratchett (my favorite source of quotes) once wrote with fonts I can't reproduce, "There's the truth, the Truth, the TRUTH, the truth, the truth, and also the truth. How can we decide what to believe without some straight and detailed answers? If you can't remember anything, then say so. If the aliens removed all the specifics, say so rather than bluff. Otherwise, we'll need a lot more facts before we start to believe what you say.
Drum
YES, this is Drum --- now may I say a few things

A forum is for debate and discussion but to me and many others it also means to have the opportunity and a medium for others to view and to decide for themselves whether to believe or not to believe in what you are putting to them.

I did not come here as a victim nor did I come here for attention but I have allowed my story to be exposed and to come under great scrutiny. Yes, I am very aware that this would transpire and to me it is more frustrating than others because I don’t have the ability to continually fire back responses. So this puts me in a position of having to accept more criticism than what I would like to have.

As shown on the homepage of the Harold Holt website, I do say read on and judge for yourself what is truth, and this has been my only intent and approach at this forum.

My site has no commercial value nor do I have to answer to anyone for it’s content or it’s existence neither do I use my site to attack people personally for the sake of it. (I could and as shown by some of my documentation on my site, it would be impossible for anyone to do anything about it or get me into a court.)

Yes, I do act and move in a protected space due to my high security, which allows me to flaunt laws and have more privileges than others. There is no disputing this fact as shown by the court documents that are contained on that site, that I am an ex Navy clearance diver that has been involved in several clandestine operations. An affidavit against the Defence Department may not have been written to a great educational standard but as shown by other correspondence on the site it has been accepted as an established fact and a fact of evidence by the Australian Defence Department. This is also shown as a fact by the Brisbane Supreme Court affidavit, which further proves that they accept the fact that I hold a high security clearance due to my involvement in several clandestine acts.

Yes, there is a lot more of my story that I could reveal but it still comes back to those who want to accept or those who do not. I do not hide from what I say as all my details are on that site, even my house phone number and I am more than willing to be involved in any Australian Government inquiry or to be in any Court of Law.

I have used this forum as an opportunity to allow others to see and judge and to allow everyone to have their opinion, but let’s be honest I didn’t come here to allow this forum to be my judge and jury. I know that even by posting this reply I expect to be hounded down but the Harold Holt website will always be there for others to view it as they see fit.

I would like to bring to your attention that the Harold Holt website has attracted over 206,000 hits in 6 and a half months now if this has allowed them to express an opinion and raise their awareness than I have done my job.

Yes, there have been over 300 views on this posting and others are judging us all and that may be a point that is being overlooked by this forum will those others return.

Drum

The http://www.haroldholt.net website is what it is.
Oni Usagi
QUOTE (Drum @ Sep 20 2005, 08:55 PM)
Yes, there have been over 300 views on this posting and others are judging us all and that may be a point that is being overlooked by this forum will those others return.
*



Every time someone clicks the link or refreshes it counts as a new viewing of the topic. That means a good majority of the views are the same people checking new posts, replying and whatnot. Also you spoke of logic earlier but seem to be imperfect in this area yourself, for one the second half of the sentence I quoted makes little to no sense. For another you announced who you were and ended your post with your username, even though it is clearly printed to the left of each of everyones posts.
pgrmdave
Drum, much of the problem comes from the fact that your story, while documented from ONE site, which, from an outsider's perspective, can be forged, has no real corroboration. Can we view the documents on a government website, or an unbiased website? Are there any corroborating websites other than http://www.consumertronics.net/weird.htm?
Mata
QUOTE (Drum @ Sep 21 2005, 12:55 AM)
Yes, there is a lot more of my story that I could reveal but it still comes back to those who want to accept or those who do not.
*


If there is a lot more that you can reveal then please do so.

This is very important, so please read the next line I type carefully:
No matter how official the documentation is on your website, it only proves that you are very convinced of your story, it does nothing to convince others of the reality of what you are saying.

I personally don't doubt that you are the person who wrote that site and I have very little doubt that all the papers scanned in on your site are also real; however, these things do nothing to prove what you have said. The papers on your site only prove that you have told officials your story, not that your story is true. This doesn't mean that your story isn't true, only that you telling it to people is not evidence of its veracity.

Personally I'd like to know how you explain the fact that two medical doctors that work in a scanning department failed to notice alien-technology implants in your neck when such things are apparently clear to you. It would seem logical that their experience with reading scans would allow them to immediately notice such an oddity and they would have mentioned it in their report to you. The absence of documented corroboration by professional doctors significantly reduces the impact of your claims.

So, I'll ask for the third time:

What precisely was your involvement with the alledged murder of Harold Holt?

You don't tell us precisely what happened on your site, only that you took him from his house to a fishing boat. Was he alive at this point? Was he sedated? Who told you to do this? Who else was there? Who was on the boat? What boat was it? What happened next? How did your superiors explain this mission to you?

I am giving you feedback on your site here! If you can answer these questions convincingly and put this information on your site then you stand a far better chance at convincing your visitors that your story is true.

To an average reader (the kind of person that you are trying to convince) the alien-technology implant aspect of your story is very difficult to believe, as I hope you can understand. It is far less of a jump for a visitor to believe that the murder of a senior politician occurred because he was obstructing industrial interests. While people will still be sceptical of this if you give them enough detail then it is far more likely that they will accept that your story could be true.

The people on this forum are not conspiracy theorists, they are intelligent readers who visited your site with an open mind. Don't treat this feedback as an insult, view it as constructive because it indicates what else you need to say on your site to help convince people you are telling the truth. While I remain doubtful about the implants I can accept the possibility that Harold Holt was murdered, but you say very little about what actually happened so that possibility remains unfulfilled and another visitor to your site goes away unconvinced. If you could make us believe that Harold Holt was murdered then that would add weight to your claims about the implants, but you really should concentrate on the more easily accepted aspect of your story before going into alien-technology implants.

To put it another way: if you can convince the readers from this site that you are telling the truth then you can use what you tell us to convince visitors to your website. Currently there are a lot of people here doubting you, this indicates that your website does not contain enough convincing evidence of the reality of your version of events. By responding and adapting to the feedback that you recieve here you can make your website more convincing.

Your website currently only contains evidence of your story, it doesn't contain convincing evidence of the truth of your story.

Things that you could add to your site make it more convincing:

Names of other people who knew about the operation
Names of locations
More detail about Harold Holt when you met him/his body
Detail of Harold Holt's home
Detail about the boat you took him/his body to
Who told you to do this
The weather at the time
What happened afterwards, did you stay on the boat, did you see the body disposed of?
How was Harold Holt killed? Did you do it? Did you see it happen?
How your mission was explained to you
What you believe happened to Harold Holt on the fishing boat

And about the implants:
A signed document from a currently operating medical practitioner who is trained in the reading of scans testifying that the shadows on those scans do indeed show unusual implants.

'Hope this feedback helps.
Mata
It occured to me that it might be a good idea to ask QDI if they can have a look at the scans on Drum's site to see if they agree with his reading of them showing alien implants, so I've emailed them:

QUOTE
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you regarding some clarification of an issue that QDI has previously been invovled with.

A Mr Simmons is using scans made by QDI on a website claiming that they show evidience of alien-technology implants. On the site are copies of two letters from QDI, written by Dr Musgrave and Dr Stowasser, that do not mention any implanted technology.

The scans and the letters can be seen here:
http://www.haroldholt.net/Page%2004.htm

The author of the website is currently on my own website claiming that your scans show evidence of implanted technology. I feel that, as QDI produced the scans and that their doctors are implied to have overlooked implants in a patient's neck, you may wish to clarify your doctor's interpretation of scans regarding the presence, or lack thereof, of impanted technology in Mr Simmon's neck.

Mr Simmons is on my website forum registed as 'Drum', and his posts suggest that he regularly goes onto other forums posting the same material, beginning with the line 'My CT-Scan shows illicit objects in my throat, and this visual evidence is an indisputable fact and would be the BEST and CLEAREST on the Net.'

The discussion on my forum can be found here:
http://www.matazone.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=13407

Essentially all I am requesting is that someone from QDI has a quick look at the images on Mr Simmon's website and clafies whether the items highlighted as being implants are distinctly unnatural formations or are in fact perfectly normal things to see in a neck. Hopefully this will be a very quick process, taking only a moment of your time.

Many thanks for your attention and any help you can offer in this matter. I believe that it affects the reputation of QDI, his website has had over 300,000 visitors, so I hope you can assist me here.

Yours faithfully,

Mr M Haggis
Mata
Sadly QDI haven't responded. Maybe they don't think we're taking it all very seriously?
Astarael
Your e-mail seemed serious enough to me, Mata. Perhaps the "M. Haggis" bit is making them laugh. You must admit, it is a rather amusing name.
This topic could be interesting if we got proof and detail, but sadly, none is forthcoming. Conspiracy theories are fun, but the good ones have a bit of detail. All I've seen are shadows on scans and wild ramblings with no background. Honestly, the whole thing is getting boring.
Mata
Without answers to the (pretty basic and logical) questions that we've asked the whole thing remains an amusing fairy story. I was really hoping that QDI would reply. I'd have been as excited as the next person if they had said 'my goodness, yes, we've never seen the like of those objects before, why didn't we mention those alien-technology implants in our reports?' but I somehow doubt that's going to happen. As it is, the whole thing is based on unprovable stories and probably misinterpreted scans.
pgrmdave
Perhaps I should attempt to contact those John Williams to try to confirm the story.
Mata
I would have preferred to have a specialist at reading scans to have a look at them, rather than some bloke that we're told should know what he's talking about. If the scans show something abnormal and that is confirmed by an uninvolved third party, then that's at least something.
Astarael
Drum hasn't come back. Either he's lazy or we've been condemned as media-trusting sheep not worth his time. Whichever it is, I'd love for him to at least *try* to answer even one reasonable question that we've asked. Oh well. I suppose the end of the world is coming because we didn't listen to his words of Truth. The aliens will come, and the government and the media will help them control our minds! *shrieks in terror* ohmy.gif
[/withering sarcasm] biggrin.gif
EvilSpork
Personally I would like to see some of these other forums he has posted on. I think it would be amusing to look at responses from other people.
Mata
Easily done:

http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=85187

http://farshores.proboards6.com/index.cgi?...27014774&page=1 (no-one responded to that one)

http://www.bearpit.net/index.php?showtopic=5349

Found using http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22...le+Search&meta=

I worked with the assumption that he was copying and pasting the same message. Looking at the other responses, I think we have been more polite than any of the other forums, which makes me quite proud.
Astarael
The people on other boards were a bit more open in saying that they think he's a crackpot. We tried to investigate a bit, but it seems we have the same conclusion in the end. Drum is indeed crazy. We're polite people (most of the time) who don't want to get banned for rudeness. The theory is vague and insane, but there was always an outside chance that it was true. Besides, rambling conspiracy theories are funny to listen to or readif you're bored. I suppose Drum won't be coming back, as we won't blindly believe his "Truth." wink.gif
Mata
I was certainly interested in the story, and I have an open mind to even some of the strangest things. The world has far too many things going on in it for me to dismiss everything I hear about as being false. This said, while I am happy to keep an open mind, I also apply logic and deduction to the stories I hear. If there is no evidence for a story and logically it sounds unlikely then the best you can do is try to find out more, either in terms of contacting a specialist, or by asking further questions. The specialists never responded and the questions were met with paranoia, so I guess this one goes on the scrap heap. 'Shame really, it was a good story.
Astarael
Lord of the Rings is a good story too, and I loved both the books and the movies. However, coolness does not equal truth. It would be fun if it were true, but ther's no proof, no details, and too much paranoia. Even one of the really bad episodes of Star Trek would have more detail and logic than this. It's annoying, but I suppose we can't expect him to suddenly come back and answer all our questions. I wanted to hear if there was any anal probing involved in the whole alien business. wink.gif
Mata
Memories of anal probing are always just one guided hypnotherapy session away!
Traveler
Now that you’ve all had your little fun and games with this post, I would like to say a few things regarding this.

Firstly…. Just to clarify something for you here, yes… an Australian I am indeed but how it is that you come to the conclusion that just because I am an Australian and given the low number of Aussie members on this forum, that I am a friend of this man, well… perhaps you would like to enlighten me on this one?

Secondly…. This forum was given an opportunity here to see something of great importance to humanity and it was met with comments that I could only liken to that of your typical immature schoolyard bullies who think they are both smart and funny. I do not find this kind of approach amusing at all, nor do I think your one-liners were meant to be taken as a sense of humor. You may like to convince yourselves of that and your friends may even support you on asking them. Personally I have a great sense of humor but when approaching a subject I know nothing about, I am careful and use my own discernment as to whether or not my remark is indeed funny.

Through your own ignorance ladies and gentlemen, and through your own self-serving agendas, I think you have all missed out on getting any answers from this man whatsoever, and I really wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to waste his time on even trying.

To point out the obvious here, had you approached this post with some decorum, then perhaps maybe…. This man may have felt a bit more welcomed and been more inclined to seriously answer some of your questions. The matter of implants is a serious issue indeed, not to be taken lightly at all in my opinion and many others. Had you really gone and done some researching on the true purposes of implants, then you might not be so quick to judge this man. You might also like to take a few steps down off your platforms, because although you might see yourselves in that light, you are neither Judge nor Jury on this.

Also, while I am here, you might like to be made aware that not only are there websites run by those in Government departments for the purpose of disinformation, but that there are also professionally paid bloggers that work with them too for the very same purpose. Do I have any paranoia? Indeed I do not. This is the system we are being forced to live in so paranoia does well to serve no one!

It was also mentioned here that you find the Media and Government massively untrustworthy yet, you ask this man to approach a television company…. My mind boggles on that one.

It must be nice to have a group support and the academic ability to fire off your replies so quickly, but in saying that, by your actions and failure to think before you speak…. All you have done is screw, twist and rip this post apart.

It really is disappointing to say the least and however you want to take my reply is up to your own frame of minds although I’m sure you need not even a welcome to come in and tear my reply apart also. It seems this is all you are good at with nothing constructive to say at all, on a very serious issue.

I will say this on closing though, it never ceases to amaze me how people make statements about themselves either through nicknames, quotes, poetry, biblical and philosophical… etc… yet they stand on the complete opposite. Well, I honestly hope that the bell of last resort does not see what has been done to this post because it really is a crying shame how the ignorance of people leaves little room for the truth to get through.
Pikasyuu
I don't think it's that anyone's trying to be judge and jury about his claims. His post was met with more questions for clarification so that we could understand the entire thing a little bit better, not make fun of him or dismiss his testimony as automatically false. I think you'll find that this forum is pretty open minded - we're just not blindly believing in anything we're told, which is why asking questions about something that serious is necessary.
Phyllis
QUOTE (Traveler @ Oct 7 2005, 10:26 PM)
Just to clarify something for you here, yes… an Australian I am indeed but how it is that you come to the conclusion that just because I am an Australian and given the low number of Aussie members on this forum, that I am a friend of this man, well… perhaps you would like to enlighten me on this one?
*

Hmm. Could it be because your only two posts on this forum were in THIS thread, defending him? That's a bit strange, you must admit...

QUOTE
It really is disappointing to say the least and however you want to take my reply is up to your own frame of minds although I’m sure you need not even a welcome to come in and tear my reply apart also. It seems this is all you are good at with nothing constructive to say at all, on a very serious issue.

Asking reasonable questions does not mean we "tore apart" his post. We merely wanted a bit more explanation before we believed him. And we've certainly been more polite than people on other forums where he posted an identical message.

How is asking for proof impolite in any way? I personally think that yourself and Drum are the ones being rude in this situation -- refusing to answer questions and then implying that we're all ignorant little sheep who live only to tear others down.

And Drum just kept repeating the same things, over and over. Perhaps he just wanted to get hits on Google?
Jonman
QUOTE (Traveler @ Oct 8 2005, 06:26 AM)
Now that you’ve all had your little fun and games with this post, I would like to say a few things regarding this.

Firstly…. Just to clarify something for you here, yes… an Australian I am indeed but how it is that you come to the conclusion that just because I am an Australian and given the low number of Aussie members on this forum, that I am a friend of this man, well… perhaps you would like to enlighten me on this one?

Secondly…. This forum was given an opportunity here to see something of great importance to humanity and it was met with comments that I could only liken to that of your typical immature schoolyard bullies who think they are both smart and funny. I do not find this kind of approach amusing at all, nor do I think your one-liners were meant to be taken as a sense of humor. You may like to convince yourselves of that and your friends may even support you on asking them. Personally I have a great sense of humor but when approaching a subject I know nothing about, I am careful and use my own discernment as to whether or not my remark is indeed funny.

Through your own ignorance ladies and gentlemen, and through your own self-serving agendas, I think you have all missed out on getting any answers from this man whatsoever, and I really wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to waste his time on even trying.

To point out the obvious here, had you approached this post with some decorum, then perhaps maybe…. This man may have felt a bit more welcomed and been more inclined to seriously answer some of your questions. The matter of implants is a serious issue indeed, not to be taken lightly at all in my opinion and many others. Had you really gone and done some researching on the true purposes of implants, then you might not be so quick to judge this man. You might also like to take a few steps down off your platforms, because although you might see yourselves in that light, you are neither Judge nor Jury on this.

Also, while I am here, you might like to be made aware that not only are there websites run by those in Government departments for the purpose of disinformation, but that there are also professionally paid bloggers that work with them too for the very same purpose. Do I have any paranoia? Indeed I do not. This is the system we are being forced to live in so paranoia does well to serve no one!

It was also mentioned here that you find the Media and Government massively untrustworthy yet, you ask this man to approach a television company…. My mind boggles on that one.

It must be nice to have a group support and the academic ability to fire off your replies so quickly, but in saying that, by your actions and failure to think before you speak…. All you have done is screw, twist and rip this post apart.

It really is disappointing to say the least and however you want to take my reply is up to your own frame of minds although I’m sure you need not even a welcome to come in and tear my reply apart also. It seems this is all you are good at with nothing constructive to say at all, on a very serious issue.

I will say this on closing though, it never ceases to amaze me how people make statements about themselves either through nicknames, quotes, poetry, biblical and philosophical… etc… yet they stand on the complete opposite. Well, I honestly hope that the bell of last resort does not see what has been done to this post because it really is a crying shame how the ignorance of people leaves little room for the truth to get through.
*



Pfft. I for one am bored of this. It's crap, pure and simple.

We took Drum at face value, asked salient questions to further our understanding of the potential issues, and none of them were answered. Most, if not all were completely ignored. None of the grey areas were un-grey-ified. All of Drum's evidence is still circumstantial, and shaky-at-best. It's got nothing to do with being cynical, it's got everything to do with not being a gullible fool.

Currently, I have no more reason to believe Drum than I do to believe any idiot who makes an outrageous claim without anything approaching reasonable and believable evidence, despite repeatedly being given a chance to help us see 'past our media-blinded eyes'. My arse, more like.
Astarael
It seems to me that everyone who was even a bit rude at the beginning apologized and asked for clarification. Mata bent over backwards asking Drum for a bit of evidence and a bit more detail to back things up. We've consistently asked for a blow-by-blow account of what exactly his involvement with the murder was and what the implants had to do with it. Expressing a desire for more facts is neither rude nor childish. All we want is detail. No matter how nicely Mata and others have asked, all we've recieved is a whole speech about how brave he is for coming forward, how he could reveal more but wouldn't because it came down to whether we wanted to believe or not, and how stupid we are to believe the media. Most of us had never even heard the supposed murder before this post, so what possible bearing does belief in the media have on this issue? When you're whining about our rudeness, look at the other places where Drum posted and compare how polite we are. Mata, who has enough to do with writing a thesis and running this site, spent a while writing long and polite posts asking for a bit of detail to clarify the story. That is a mark of sincere respect and curiosity about Drum's story. Quite frankly, we've been trying to find something to confirm his beliefs and I'm sick of begging for more detail when all I recieve is a snotty post about the people here being media slaves. When we get more detail and backup for this lovely little story, we'll think about believing it. In the interim, the only thing people tend to take on faith here is their own religion.
Concerning your relation to Drum: I know what I did starting out here, and I've seen other new members come along. Before people start posting anywhere, they set up a signature and an avatar because it's fun and these things reflect who you are. Then they usually start an introduction thread so people can get to know them, go over to Daft to mess around and get a feel for the place, or go to Personal Concerns to share a problem of their own or comfort someone else. You, on the other hand, have no avatar and no sig. You came straight to Issues, a place very few people feel comfortable approaching with their first post. Then you made a long and eloquent post chastising us for not believing a dubious story immediately. You tried to suggest that asking for a little detail from poor martyr Drum was a mortal sin or something. In short, you behave like a person who was asked who come here and show some support for backup.
Mata
QUOTE (Traveler @ Oct 8 2005, 05:26 AM)
Firstly…. Just to clarify something for you here, yes… an Australian I am indeed but how it is that you come to the conclusion that just because I am an Australian and given the low number of Aussie members on this forum, that I am a friend of this man, well… perhaps you would like to enlighten me on this one?

I already have explained my logic in previous posts, but I can summarise it for you:

You both arrive on my forum and both your posts are about the same subject

Neither of you have posted on any other topic. For Drum this is logical, he only came here to spread his story, but for you this is very odd: why would you come to my forum, go to the bother of registering, but then only post on one subject? That you have then returned to that subject without posting about anything else suggests that your motivation for coming to this site was to post about Drum's topic

You are both from Australia. It's a big country, but we don't have a lot of Australians on here, so it is, as I stated in my first reply to your post, coincidental that two people should post passionately exclusively about the same topic. Statistically it's unlikely. Not impossible by any means, but it is unlikely that it is only a coincidence

You both use the same internet service provider (your IP address gives that away)

You have both chosen usernames that evoke a historical archetype of quests and justice: the march of the drum taking soldiers to battle to fight for truth, the traveller who searches for meaning. The linguistic connection between your imagery suggests a link between your thought processes that may come from friendship. You may even be the same person, but unfortunately I don't have access to writing style analysis and have no way of proving that sort of link.

So, look at this from my perspective:

you both show an interest in only one subject
you both come from the same non-UK and non-US country
you joined very soon after Drum's first message
you are the only person who has so far been convinced by Drum's testimony
you use the same internet provider
you are both interested in the same imagery

I happily admit that all of this could be a huge coincidence. One or two of these factors might be a coincidence, but it would be illogical to dismiss all of these elements combined, leading to the conclusion that it is likely that at the very least you were previously aware of Drum before this forum, that you have met Drum in real life, or that you may even be the same person. My instincts suggest that you're a friend, rather than Drum under a different username, but I can't dis/prove that.

QUOTE
Secondly…. This forum was given an opportunity here to see something of great importance to humanity and it was met with comments that I could only liken to that of your typical immature schoolyard bullies who think they are both smart and funny.

Have you been reading the same thread as me? We read his website and responded to it. There's no bullying there. If you look at the responses given to Drum when he has posted this exact same material on other websites I think you'll agree that in comparison we have been the paradigm of civility. Most people dismiss him as a lunatic instantly. We gave him the benefit of the doubt and he didn't rise to claim it.

QUOTE
Personally I have a great sense of humor

All this and modesty too! wink.gif

QUOTE
Through your own ignorance ladies and gentlemen, and through your own self-serving agendas, I think you have all missed out on getting any answers from this man whatsoever, and I really wouldn’t blame him for not wanting to waste his time on even trying.

Actually we repeatedly and politely asked him for clarification. In his second post he gave us none whatsoever, despite some reasonable questions being asked such as 'why did the people at Queensland Diagnostic Imaging not notice the implants in your neck?', and instead we were given a standard 'the media have made you blind' line. If the media had made us blind, why were we prepared to investigate his story rather than flatly dismiss it?

What exactly is our 'self-serving agenda'? You really shouldn't go around throwing out phrases like that when they really don't make any sense. I've said repeatedly that I'd love for this to be true, that is my agenda, but there just isn't any evidence for it and the questions have all been ignored.

Drum's third post is my favourite though, 'May be you work for some Government Department'. So far Drum has failed to address even the most reasonable requests for clarification, instead claiming that my questioning of his story suggests that I am part of a government cover-up, which I hope even you will agree is pretty silly when he was the one who came to my site!

The documents on his website (I'm working with the assumption that they are real) only demonstrate that he is prepared to tell his story in a court, they do not prove that his story is real. The scan images on his site were described by the doctors in this manner:

[apart from a sinus problem and some cartilage damage] no additional abnormality is noted - Dr J Edwards, 5th March 1997

No significant sonographic abnormality has been noted - Dr M Aitken, 11th July 2000

As I stated previously, what is more likely:

option 1: that two trained doctors that look at thousands of body scans every year would miss alien implants in a person's neck

option 2: that the doctors are part of a global government conspiracy to hide alien technology implants so didn't mention them in the images but gave Mr Simmons untreated scans containing damning proof of their lies by mistake. Twice.

option 3: the shadows in the neck are perfectly normal aspects of human physiology and Mr Simmons seeing alien implants in the shadows is a reflection of a wide social paranoia relating to fear of advanced technology and a sense of loss created by the disappearance of traditional communities and organisations.

Both logic and common sense point to option 3. If you disagree then please explain your process of logic to me, I will be very interested to hear it. Clearly you disagree with my logic otherwise you wouldn't still be insisting that we are all stupid for questioning Drum's story. Please tell me why options 1 or 2 are more likely than option 3. It's a simple request, made politely, as have been all previous requests.

QUOTE
The matter of implants is a serious issue indeed, not to be taken lightly at all in my opinion and many others. Had you really gone and done some researching on the true purposes of implants, then you might not be so quick to judge this man. You might also like to take a few steps down off your platforms, because although you might see yourselves in that light, you are neither Judge nor Jury on this.


Firstly, you have obviously completely ignored me when I told you that I have spent a considerable amount of time reading about and assessing various theories about implants, government cover-ups, alien technology, UFOs, covert assassinations, and plenty more besides. As a child I was fascinated by these kinds of mysteries and I would spend hours pouring over conspiracy books. I find it all very interesting, but so far I have as yet to see one iota of convincing proof for the existence of implants leading to mind control of the nature described by Drum. Of course, you are free to believe that I am lying about this. I know I'm not, but I can't prove it to you right now and so I wouldn't expect you to stake your world-view on it (although I could get evidence if needed). My story isn't improbable, so accepting it without evidence won't rock the world. The more important a story is the greater the need for firm evidence and Drum just hasn't presented even soft evidence of anything other than the clear fact that he himself is very convinced of his story.

Secondly, this story has been presented to us and you are telling us to blindly believe it, despite rational doubts? We are precisely the judge and jury of our own minds. I will not accept you telling me what to think; that's free-will for you! You want us to believe that we are being lied to constantly but then you act surprised when we want to make up our own minds about a, logically highly unlikely, story. We are all the judge and jury for ourselves and we have every right to make up our own minds about it.

QUOTE
Also, while I am here, you might like to be made aware that not only are there websites run by those in Government departments for the purpose of disinformation, but that there are also professionally paid bloggers that work with them too for the very same purpose. Do I have any paranoia? Indeed I do not. This is the system we are being forced to live in so paranoia does well to serve no one!

You may also note that Drum accused me of working for the government because I doubted him. That paranoia in the face of reasonable questions really didn't help his case. Yes, it seems very likely that Governments do have a number of people employed to circulate information, which is all the more reason that a healthy questioning mind is important: Drum has not presented any evidence to corroborate his story. For all we know he could be a government plant who was put here to discredit the stories of real implantees. If Drum is so real why does he refuse to answer reasonable questions?

QUOTE
It was also mentioned here that you find the Media and Government massively untrustworthy yet, you ask this man to approach a television company…. My mind boggles on that one.

That was why I suggested a live transmission of the surgery. It certainly wouldn't be unheard of, and people could see for themselves if a lump of alien-technology is really in his neck. Maybe you could get a big audience of well-known conspiracy theorists, doctors, surgeons, as well as recognised establishment figures to be witnesses to the surgery. I'll say it again: currently he has no evidence and he needs some if he wants to prove his story.

QUOTE
It must be nice to have a group support and the academic ability to fire off your replies so quickly, but in saying that, by your actions and failure to think before you speak…. All you have done is screw, twist and rip this post apart.

Yes, darn that academic ability giving me the chance to take ages typing long polite enquiries in response to a post that, everywhere else on the internet, has been universally greeted with blank derision.

Read through this thread again. We have been very polite. I still say that I would absolutely love for his story to be true, but he just hasn't provided any evidence. If he would at the very least answer some of our questions then maybe we could get a better idea of his story, but currently he insists on vague covert operations and reiterating the bare-bones without any further explication that might convince us.

QUOTE
It really is disappointing to say the least and however you want to take my reply is up to your own frame of minds although I’m sure you need not even a welcome to come in and tear my reply apart also. It seems this is all you are good at with nothing constructive to say at all, on a very serious issue.

Democracy is a great thing. It allows us the ability to speak our minds when we doubt something to be the truth. We can only be constructive about this topic if we are given more information. That information hasn't arrived and so we have come to the conclusion that the story is not true. There is no tearing apart happening here.

Here's the really good bit about democracy: you can do the same to us. Dazzle us with your evidence about implant technology. Show us why we are so silly to doubt for even a moment that those shadows on the scans could be anything but alien-technology put into Drum's neck 35 years ago. Everything that we have done (which is ask reasonable questions) you can do too.

You are actually in the best position here, because all you need to do is prove once that this stuff is real and can function in the way that is it alleged and our case disappears completely. Drum certainly hasn't presented any evidence, and neither have you.

QUOTE
I will say this on closing though, it never ceases to amaze me how people make statements about themselves either through nicknames, quotes, poetry, biblical and philosophical… etc… yet they stand on the complete opposite. Well, I honestly hope that the bell of last resort does not see what has been done to this post because it really is a crying shame how the ignorance of people leaves little room for the truth to get through.
*

And there's our old friend 'the truth'. What truth? Whose truth? Your truth? My truth? Scientifically testable truth? Medically verifiable truth? Logically probable truth?

Look at the website, it contains scans with vague shadows on them that trained specialists state are in no way abnormal and a sworn testimony that is short on detail of events. Sadly they only prove that he is convinced of his story, they are definitely not evidence that his story is true.

I know that this has been a long post, and that in itself should go as some evidence that I am prepared to engage with this topic rationally should any evidence be presented. People don't write 2,500 words about something that they're not intrigued by, although I freely admit that my interest currently is mainly in understanding how Drum came to believe that his story is true, because the lack of evidence presented (I might have mentioned that already wink.gif) doesn't support the veracity of his claims.

I realise you might not have time to respond to this all, so here's what I think are the two most salient points:

Point one: If Drum can't convince a group of open-minded individuals that his story is true, even when he is debating it with them in a forum, then how does he expect to be able to convince any visitor to his website, who won't even have the chance to discuss the topic with him? For evidence of the claim that we are an open-minded group simply compare the responses of this website to those on other websites where Drum has posted this topic. To put that another way, if he could convince us through explaining more about his story then he could learn how to improve his website, because currently the website cannot even convince an open-minded group about his story, let alone the average doubter.

Point two: What is more likely:

option 1: that two trained doctors that look at thousands of body scans every year would miss alien implants in a person's neck

option 2: that the doctors are part of a global government conspiracy to hide alien technology implants so didn't mention their presence in the scan images but gave Mr Simmons untreated scans containing damning proof of their lies by mistake, twice.

option 3: the shadows in the neck are perfectly normal aspects of human physiology and Mr Simmons seeing alien implants in the shadows is a reflection of a wide social paranoia relating to fear of advanced technology and a sense of loss created by the disappearance of traditional communities and organisations.

That's a simple 1,2, or 3 choice for you there, and I will be very interested to hear how you rationalise your answer.

Traveler, please address these two points in your next reply rather than giving us another lecture about how terrible people we are for not blindly accepting the unsupported word of a stranger.
Moosh
Just a thought, but does anyone have access to any CT-scans of themselves or consenting others to compare these areas of neck? You've probably all already though of this haven't you?
Mata
I have put a request out on my blog for people to help:

http://www.matazone.co.uk/blog/?p=180

There's one possible response so far. We'll see.
spook
This man has fabricated his whole website. I’ve checked through his site and checked out his supposed facts. He can’t and won’t substantiate any of his claims.
I’ve checked his navy record which is online for the world to see and there’s nothing out of place or been covered up. His date of birth, date when he joined, dates of his training and accomplishments are all clearly dated and laid out for all to see. The actual documents are there online.
There was no underage cover up. There may have been some typos with his file number from a 5 to a 3 but this happens all the time and its not a cover up or mystery.
His CT Scans have been checked and they are as per his past medical conditions with no hidden secret transmitters as he wants all to believe.

Any normal person would of went to extreme lengths to prove the truth if his claims were the case. Any transmitters of any type could have been detected with the basic use of a spectrum analyzer and other basic electronic detectors. Why hasn’t he been tested with these you may ask? Well he’s had misfortune with his health as have many other people and he’s just trying to get back at his employer the Navy any way he can.

If as he states on his site that he took part in the death of Former Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt does anyone really think that he wouldn’t have been arrested by now. In fact he actually states that he basically murdered Harold Holt by saying he dragged him out to sea thinking he was still alive at the time when he inspected him in the body bag. He contradicts his own demented beliefs.

He has in the past submitted various court documents and statements and its no wonder they never took the matter seriously because there was no factual evidence contained in any of them. He acted on his own legal behalf in most of the cases, which also gives him less credibility. Any lawyer would have acted for free if his case had any merit on such a high profile subject. The death of a Prime Minister – Ha Ha who is he trying to kid. Lawyers would jump at a case like that.

If you read clearly through his site you will read that he is basically a person with mental health problems that has been in and out of trouble with the law for years.
He has most likely been let off with many of his petty crimes because of his mental heath problems. This is a common practice within the legal system in Australia.
And he has spent time in jail as well for fraud. Who does he blame for that? The secret service perhaps!

He could prove without a doubt his claims were true simply by just getting a professional medical and technical assessment and by providing real answers instead of his generalized and made-up claims. He believes his own rubbish and try’s to make something out of nothing. Any person with any normal basic intelligence can see he isn’t genuine. I hope people contact him through his site and let him know he’s a fake trying to pass of a conspiracy that doesn’t exist.
monkey_called_narth
you know... i was abducted by alians once... whenever it rains i have these large metalic wings that magicly grow out of my back and kill people. tis true i swear.



*cough* i hope i dont get in trouble for this *cough*
Mata
It's funny. When I saw 'spook' as the user-name of a new member to the forums I just knew that they were going to revive this thread. I'm getting quite prescient about what people will be like from their usernames... Maybe I'm seeing the future! Quick call the X-Files!
Cookieflair
Having read the topic i would just like to say a few things:

1. Who is Drum/Traveller (who i strongly believe to be the same person) and why does he post an identical message on multiple forums? Miscarriages of justice are terrible and i know from personal experience just how crippling they can be, so if he has been grossly violated i would understand him wanting justice. However, if he is going to bring up a topic as controversial as this evidence is needed to gain support and belief from people.

2. I know this has been said many times before but if the supposed implants in his neck are not organic then why do they not show up as metallic on the scan? Is his paranoia that bad? Is he angry at the navy (or indeed the govt)? Does he just want to make his presence felt? Or is his theory real?

Above all, this whole thing makes me have my guard up a little, his agressive style makes me feel under attack of sorts and surely if he wants to gain support for his theory he would provide as much evidence and be as open as he could? Maybe he is just tired from numerous sttempts? (i mean before the message boards we have seen)
He also uses the words "schoolyard bully" but as far as i can see all the responses haver been open minded and justified in their queries his constant question dodging and name calling have been more alike to that. Maybe i'm just biased but the whole thing seems a little unbelieviable in my eyes, and with no substantial evidence and a shoddy website i am reluctant to pledge any allegiance.
Who knows maybe he will return.......... maybe he will be on channel 4 in a live operation
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