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Witless
Hmm.. I was in the media forum and suddenly a load of neurons in my brain started firing in a new and untried pattern and... bang! There I was having a huge session of thought.. and thought I HAD to share for fear I'd keel over and die if I contained it all.

If China becomes the new super power of the world, what does that mean for all those little things like, fashion, music, and the film industries.
I'm not sure if people in the states are aware of this, but the world pretty much follows the fashion from the states, the celebrity from the states, at least half the music charts are from the startes, even the slang words, from the states.
It's weird travelling around Europe sometimes and seeing the same films being shown their as anywhere else. Half the time they're not even dubbed, they're subtitled to the countries language.
That's most because the US is a commerce power house, really they can do everything with so much vigor with that commercial muscle, they can flood it out to every corner of the globe, so that when Paris Hilton gets up to whatever in a hotel, then people in Zimbabwe are made aware of it.

What happens if power floats over to China, does that mean suddenly everyone will know the names of every Chinese celebrity? We'll start adding more and more oriental styles into our clothing. Schools may even start offering eastern languages as optional languages!
I find all that a very amusing thought of the future, and how swayed by the media and fashions people are.. (if it were to happen).

Can anyone else envision a future where the world idolises the east as the new states for where we look to for all our social trends?
Mata
Red will be the new black, every single season.
Calantyr
It's already happenning. And as about 1 in every 5 people in the world is Chinese this is only going to get more prevalent.

Mandarin is already becomming the language of business. It's being put forward as the futures business language. China really is a sleeping dragon that is about to awake. Vast untapped resources, incredible manpower, and a work ethic that seems to put the community first over the individual.

Look out world!

But rather than see 'eastern' trends and fashions dominating the rest of the world, I think it's more likely that the two will combine. For example look at the music industry. Even though the eastern one is getting stronger and stronger and pushing into the western market, it still seems to resemble the west a great deal.

In time its possible that what we are left with is simply different flavours of the same brand.

And really that's the way it's always been. People adopt the best aspects of a culture and make it their own. And sometimes the worst, but meh.

As long as I get my cute Japanese college girls and tentacle monsters I'm happy.
Jonman
Meh. I think you're vastly over-estimating it. Having lived in the US and in the UK, there's sooooo many differences between the two. Fashion, for starters, does not travel across the Atlantic all that well at all. Americans in London stand out a mile.

Anyway, you're really only talking about pop culture. And once again, pop culture, even between two countries with such close links as the US and the UK now is wildly different between each country. Compare the UK charts and the US charts (pop charts, that is). While there's some similarity, there's still a vast difference (thankfully for you guys, I don't think you've got The Cheeky Girls).

In fact, the only area I think you're spot on with is movies. And that's because of Hollywood. Which I would think has so much money from all round the world invested in it, it's pretty immune to everything.
Astarael
Did anyone else get a sudden wild thought about Firefly when Calantyr said that the two cultures will combine? Or have I gone all super-nerdy again?
Seriously, though, the two cultures would probably meld and people would wind up being bilingual. There's no way that either culture would be completely obliderated or buried. The blend could be interesting. Hollywood does indeed have power, but some things would probably change to attract more Chinese audiences.
elphaba2
Moreover, there's the whole Communist business. Bush's head will probably explode (if he's still with us) and every stupid Leninist taxi driver will throw his cap in the air. I think it would be very interesting to see how China's foreign policy and influence might change government here.

Fashion-wise, I doubt "oriental" styles will become that pervasive. Already loads of US stores use "Asian" themes (for example, this summer kajillions of silly high school girls wore paisley and big jangly earrings to get the Bollywood look), but the countries from which the styles are supposedly taken don't really dress like that anymore. In India, the hot thing to wear leans more towards "muddy rags" than "gaudy rhinestone earrings". As far as Japanese styles go, Harajuku clothes have never been nearly as popular to the American public as kimonos.

Or maybe I'm just dying to see Ms. Spears in a Mao shirt.
sjbbandgeek
China will have to go up against Mexican culture in California, and you just can't beat Mexican cuisine.
As for the whole superpower thing, I think it's a joke. In a non-nulcear war, the U.S military would shalak China.
Calantyr
QUOTE (Jonman @ Feb 2 2006, 06:37 PM)
Anyway, you're really only talking about pop culture. And once again, pop culture, even between two countries with such close links as the US and the UK now is wildly different between each country. Compare the UK charts and the US charts (pop charts, that is). While there's some similarity, there's still a vast difference (thankfully for you guys, I don't think you've got The Cheeky Girls).

*


It seems that almost every group or artist is from the US. And yes, we have the Cheeky Girls too.

There is no god.

QUOTE (sjbbandgeek)
As for the whole superpower thing, I think it's a joke. In a non-nulcear war, the U.S military would shalak China.


China has little force projection capability from its shores. However its air forces and ground power within its sphere of influence is immense. It's average military tech is, what, 30-40 years out of date? But it has masses off the stuff.

If you get attacked by a million people armed with sticks its still going to hurt.

So the US would turn the coastline into the surface of the moon, but be unable to penetrate further into the interior due to the mass of numbers. Stalemate.
Witless
Woah... think it's been badly misunderstood what i meant by americanization of the world.

I've travelled a fair bit around europe.. and a little bit on the states east coast. It's weird to note, I see few polish influences in the czech rebublic, few swedish influences in Italy, few french influences in spain that can't be linked to historical events rather than modern events. Considering their proximity to each other, it's you'd think they'd have more in common, but outside the odd restaurant, they don't really know much about each other.

They are however all very well aware of cultures from the states, films from the states, everything from the states. More so than their own neighbours most of the time. It's strange to note that most people I've met in england are more aware of what's going on across the atlantic with Catherine Zeta-Jones' love life than with the muslim situation just across the channel in france. It's certainly not always been that way. But well, it certainly is now.
It's scarily that way in most places I've been in europe. When I was in poland.. who up until only a few decades ago was under pretty controlled russian rule. Everywhere in Warsaw the capital were Jennifer Lopez adverts for her latest clothing range (so much for seeing traditional polish ways). It wasn't until we really got into the middle of nowhere country side did you escape it.
There I had polish food, etc.. but even in some small towns it was dominated by a high street with Mcdonalds and Pizza huts. All very worrying.

Countries will always have their individual traits (thank god), but when you travel around.. you'll notice is that the most frequent thing countries seem to have in common (across Europe anyway), are the elements put there from the states. That's scary really. But the question for me is, is that a static thing.. or can China just as easily come in and become that common element in the place of the states?
Calantyr
QUOTE (Witless @ Feb 3 2006, 02:48 PM)
But the question for me is, is that a static thing.. or can China just as easily come in and become that common element in the place of the states?
*


Only if China can supply, in mass, something that people want at a competitive price.

The worldwide colonisation of American enterprises like McD happen because theres a desire for it. And if there isn't, it tries to make it. Cheap food, fast served, and no hassle cleaning up afterwards.

If China can do something similar then it will. But where is the niche for them to fit into?

Same with other aspects I suppose. As long as the US churns out repetative pap at the cinemas and peple like it, then it will continue to dominate. If people begin to tire of it then the US film industry will have to change or consumers will go elsewhere for their jollies. Could this be China? Maybe, but only if they have a product that we desire.

Recently a lot of Eatern films do seem to be filling a niche. High quality production, intriguing storylines, and a refreshing cultural outlook. However will the demand for it outgrow that for what we are used to? Meh. I doubt it. People can be pretty damned resistant to change in any form.
pgrmdave
Two things come into play with the US cultural dominance - our strong government/military and our capitalist economy. Our economy has allowed certain businesses to grow enormously, and many businesses have gained the ability to become a world-wide brand. Our military successes in the twentieth century opened up some very important markets for us, Germany, Japan, and Korea. With the sheer numbers of US armed forces overseas, the culture was bound to spread from them. Plus, since there were so many American military men that companies were able to gain an easier foothold in foreign lands - they had a population that was already used to them.

Until China's economy grows to the point of being able to become a world-wide brand, or they have important military victories in Europe and the Americas which allow them to station troops, they will not be able to become a world-wide culture.

However, India may be much more successful at this, given the already successful nature of their computer industry and Bollywood.
Jonman
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 3 2006, 11:05 AM)
It seems that almost every group or artist is from the US. And yes, we have the Cheeky Girls too.


Yes, I know WE have the Cheeky Girls - I was talking about them NOT having the Cheeky Girls.

I'm confused - are you telling me that the top 40 is crammed with US artists? A brief look at this tells me that's not the case, but any stretch. Sure, there's a lot of US artists, but hardly 'all' by any stretch of the imagination.
elphaba2
Two out of your top 3 are US artists, though. There are no British artists in the American top 3, and only one in our top 5. (And we only like him because he's connected with the Queen and Americans secretly long for our own royalty.) Just a glance at the British top chart indicates a mild obsession with hip-hop, and god knows you folks complain enough about the chavs to show that they've some major prevalence.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Britain is just full of Americans who talk funny--there's certainly a huge degree of difference between many aspects of British and American culture (for example, you all talk funny). However, Witless is correct in saying that American culture appears to be much more pervasive than British. Consider chav culture, The Jerry Springer Musical, and McDonald's (no, I didn't miss the bit of discussion about it, but I think the fact that it is an American food chain contributed at least partly to its popularity, especially in the heydey of American dominance).
bryden42
QUOTE
I've travelled a fair bit around europe.. and a little bit on the states east coast. It's weird to note, I see few polish influences in the czech rebublic, few swedish influences in Italy, few french influences in spain that can't be linked to historical events rather than modern events. Considering their proximity to each other, it's you'd think they'd have more in common, but outside the odd restaurant, they don't really know much about each other.


I think part of the reason that europes borders remain largely closed in terms of cross polinisation of culture is purely the immense amoount of war and bad spirit that has gone on in the past, we have 100s of years worth of wars and in fighting that have cemented an obstinate adherence to our own cultural identity. America, having never been part of this, is in a unique position to influence without the threatening overtures that would be percieved within a European setting.

QUOTE
Did anyone else get a sudden wild thought about Firefly

First off I got Blade runner, but then Firefly..... COOL!
Mata
QUOTE (Calantyr @ Feb 3 2006, 01:59 PM)
Only if China can supply, in mass, something that people want at a competitive price.

The worldwide colonisation of American enterprises like McD happen because theres a desire for it. And if there isn't, it tries to make it. Cheap food, fast served, and no hassle cleaning up afterwards.

If China can do something similar then it will. But where is the niche for them to fit into?
*

I think I'm remembering this correctly, but currently around 1 in 4, or 1 in 3 of all new clothing produced in the world is made in China. It's predicted that in the next decade it will reach 50%.

The only obstacle to this is the US and Europe. Initially they welcomed trade with China because it gave them cheap imports that boosted the home economy, as well as having a political advantage of leverage over China and the hoped-for introduction of capitalism. China does have a semi-capitalist organisation now where hard work can gain you more money, but it's far off from being as equal as western countries. The main problem the west has faced is that where they once had control over China through the money they sent over for goods, now China has so many customers that no single nation has any control over China anymore: previously if the US had said 'permit peaceful protests occasionally or we'll stop buying clothing from you' then this might have presented a problem for China, these days China can afford to stick a middle finger up and just sell to the rest of the world instead.

The US and Europe are majorly annoyed about this turn of events, so in the last 14 months or-so decided occasionally to stop imports because 'it was damgaing home textile industries', which mostly means cheap labour in other parts of the world that they can still control. They created China as the major power in the textile field and now are annoyed that China are so damn good at it. This isn't something that's going to happen, it already is happening. China makes our clothes, and if they didn't then they would cost us, consumers, a lot more to buy. We don't want that, so China will eventually utterly dominate the market even further and I suspect there's nothing we can do about it. Trade sanctions just hurt our own economies, which makes no-one happy.
monkey_called_narth
china might not be a super power but they are getting close, the three main things supporting the world ecomomy is the us housing bubble, consumer spending, and china's textiles.

china is also stepping towards capitalism.

edit: i should really start reading all the posts... mata just said as much *blinks*
michael1384
now, this superpower question is a bit tough(sp.). mainly because we cant make references to history. the last superpower that i know of before the US and russia was the british empire, and we know they had a cultrual influence, because they invaded places!
Mata
These days you don't need to invade places physically to control them, you just send in the chain-stores and multinational corporations. If they weren't capitalists when you started then they will be soon... Cutlural invasion is sneaky stuff. It can produce good things, such as awareness of global responsibility, but it can also destroy the rights of individuals and cultural identity.

(Michael, could you use capital letters where necessary please? It'll make your posts a lot easier to read. Thanks!)
Astarael
Oh, yes. You can treat the conquest of a country like the hostile takeover of a business, and the change will be soon be too powerful to stop. It's likely dangerous to cultures sometimes, but I'm not sure whether the benefits can really even start to balance the consequences or not.
michael1384
QUOTE (Mata @ Feb 21 2006, 11:06 AM)
These days you don't need to invade places physically to control them, you just send in the chain-stores and multinational corporations. If they weren't capitalists when you started then they will be soon... Cutlural invasion is sneaky stuff. It can produce good things, such as awareness of global responsibility, but it can also destroy the rights of individuals and cultural identity.

(Michael, could you use capital letters where necessary please? It'll make your posts a lot easier to read. Thanks!)
*


sorry, i'll use capitals whenever i need to.

Very interesting, that is sneaky, Mr. Snaffleburger corp. strategies. Just without the brainwashing, (sometimes).

America's supremacy all depends on the dollar, and the milletary. If the world trade market changes it's currency,(or something like that) America will most likely stop being superpower, but i don't think China being superpower would affect T.V. shows.
Mata
The style of Chinese cinema is already changing western productions. Look at the difference in the way that fights are staged in a 1980s TV show and in something modern, such as Charmed. The latter is reasonably low-budget and utterly disposable, but they still use kung fu moves and a little wire-work with moderate skill.

Don't underestimate the subtle influence of the far east on wider ideologies either: after the cold war mostly ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union, America became very accustomed to thinking of itself as the only superpower nation. Now you have a threat in a way that is not like the USSR, it is not about conflict of governmental styles instead it is about economies of scale. A military fight between China and the US would bring about such great losses for both sides (and the rest of the world too when the lynchpins of the global economy are made unstable) so instead they have reached a form of peace based on trade, which initially America was pleased about, because increased wealth means social change, but now it's finding that China can still be a Communist state and maintain a semi-capitalist system. Due to the scale of production possible on comparatively low wages, China is winning the economic war. This is the first time that America has been beaten on its home ground, and it's being done by a non-democratic state. I suspect that part of the current sense of insecurity in government is due to the shift in perspective necessary to comprehend this, or, probably more accurately, the extreme act of denial required to ignore it. If you look at government as a single organism, The War Against Terror (T.W.A.T.) begins to look more and more like a process of deferral, fighting something that allows the release of agression without actually producing any constructive results for the organism or its environment.
Calantyr
I thought this was relevant.

China threatening Taiwan of 'disaster'.

Now China has lots of planes, troops, tanks etc... But Taiwan has the densest air defence in the world. And China has no navy. Nor does China have many air fields across the coast from Taiwan.

So how exactly does China plan to successfully invade Taiwan if it DOES finally declare full independance?

Though declaring independance is probably the wrong term as it still claims to be the lawful state of China.

Meh.
Astarael
China could always cause some explosive international incident by threatening to use nukes or something similarly deadly, but hopefully things won't get that hostile. There's admittedly a good bit of heat, but I don't think that things have gone completely beyond negotiation yet.
MrRandomQuotes
On the whole military side of it al China has the largest defence budget in the world (even bigger than the US) and over the past half decade has been franticly upgrading all that 30 and 40 yr old crap with top of the line russian stuff. Which just goes to show, if you embargo a product someone else makes the profit.
Izzy
We already know the names of chinesse celeberties. Well some of them at least, like Jackie Chan.
And what happens if China take the Iraq side in the war? They've got all the good wepsons.

-Izzy
sjbbandgeek
China would never openly support the insurgency in Iraq. That would be political and economic suicide.
And the weapons you speak of, they are probably Russian made. Looks like they are already in Iraq from leftovers of the Cold war.

As for celebs, Chuck Norris could sooooooo beat up Jackie Chan.
Calantyr
I'm not too sure about the economic suicide bit... and if so it would be Mutually Assured Destruction. Go to some countries around the world and nearly everything was originally made in China.

For example Australia. Next time you go there have a look at what's being sold in the shops. I bet you it will nearly ALL say 'Made in China'.

And Mr. T pities the fool that is Chuck Norris.
The Chief
China will be the new superpower in the world, Russia is no more and America is on the skids. How long it will take well at this rate I would say less than 20 years.
Calantyr
CHINA WILL GROW LARGER!
Tantei Sayumi
I doubt China will become a "world attention centre"... at least, not to the stubborn U.S. *coughs*
(Well, it didn't happen with Japan during the bubble, did it? At least, not to the extent of the U.S.'s little domination of the spotlight... anyways, this celebrity culture is ESPECIALLY prevalent in the U.S. I don't know how many other countries promote it so much.)

And yes, schools are starting to offer eastern languages (especially Oriental ones). Recently (I believe it was just this year), the College Board started AP programmes for Russian (well, European to most), Japanese, and Chinese. I'm not surprised (esp. about the last one). Plus, if you haven't noticed already, I'm starting to see more books on Arabic and other Middle Eastern languages appear on the market (perhaps due to the phobia of those "potentially dangerous" countries).

QUOTE (Calantyr @ Apr 27 2006, 10:28 AM) *

Nice little name you gave the link. XD

QUOTE (Calantyr @ Mar 2 2006, 10:28 AM) *
Now China has lots of planes, troops, tanks etc... But Taiwan has the densest air defence in the world. And China has no navy. Nor does China have many air fields across the coast from Taiwan.

So how exactly does China plan to successfully invade Taiwan if it DOES finally declare full independance?

China doesn't have to use even a single bullet to bring about disaster in Taiwan. You thought that Taiwan was a major trade partner with the U.S.? Well, over half of Taiwan's investments are in trading with China, which is an even bigger trade partner of Taiwan than the U.S. Also, a number of the employed in Taiwan have jobs thanks in part to China. While I am not exactly for a complete Chinese takeover of Taiwan, it definitely would be better, IMO, not to be too stubborn at times. China can have a temper... I wouldn't risk trying to mess with it.
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