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Usurper MrTeapot
Interestingly this was sparked off in an irc chat.

"Loyalty

n
1: the quality of being loyal [ant: disloyalty]
2: feelings of allegiance
3: the act of binding yourself (intellectually or emotionally) to a course of action; "his long commitment to public service"; "they felt no loyalty to a losing team" [syn: commitment, allegiance, dedication]"

Thats how the dictinary defined it. I'm more interested in the second definition but I'm also interested in how loyalty might enter with issues of relationships and other people.

We were talking about Loyalty to the Queen. By being born British I am supposed to already sworn allegiance to the Queen. But if this was not the case and I could decide for myself I wouldn't swear loyalty any monarch. I've never known the oath I apparently took but even if I saw it I wouldn't change my mind.

In America if you want to emegrate to there then you swear loyalty to the country rather than the president. As far as I can gather it (with lots of help from candice) you aren't sworn from birth, though you pretty much know the oath off by heart as it gets said a lot in school, except it is optional to actually say it or not.

Oh and stuff, apparently you might be sworn from birth in the USA because you are required to go to war if you're drafted (theres a bit in the oath immigrants have to say about bearing arms if needed).

Now if I was asked to swear on my country, such as America, rather than my Queen/King/High Boogieman then I would happily do so. To me, my home and country are of more importance to me. I love my original origins in Cork as much as I love the chair I'm sitting in, so if it was land then I'd also be swearing to Ireland in addition to Britain. But thats just me personally.

Right, now someone make this into an Issues worth topic. Come on, I can't do everything around here.

Teapot.
Novander
I'd totally swear loyalty to Britain, but like I said in IRC, it wouldn't be unquestioning loyalty. I'd be questioning all the time. But in general, I think Britain is worth my loyalty even if our governments aren't always up to scratch. I'd never swear loyalty to the monarch, though.

What I'm now more interested in is how far they could push that loyalty. Would I kill for my country? No. Would I lie for the good of my country? I don't know. Maybe.

How far would you go for the good of your country?
Phyllis
Hmmm...I dunno. I feel kind of weird on the issue of loyalty to a government/monarch/similar thing.

I don't have to think about swearing any oaths of loyalty for at least 5 years yet (probably more because I doubt I'll want to pay for all the costs involved in citizenship as soon as I am legally able to. I will have to pay quite a few fees to get to that point in the first place). But when I do go through it, I'm required to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

I'm not particularly thrilled by this, but it's part of the process that is now required of people who are seeking citizenship. I could just not become a citizen (once I get indefinite leave to remain I can indeed remain there indefinitely), but it does make things a lot simpler in many ways to actually be a citizen of the country in which you reside.

The American version of the citizenship oath requires you to renounce all allegiances to foreign lands, which makes it seem on the surface as if the US doesn't allow dual nationality (it does, it's just not "recommended").

I think that the American version of the citizenship oath would probably bother me more than swearing allegiance to some lady who I'll never even meet. The British oath never asks me to give up any loyalty I have to other countries. I'd have a hard time with that one. Yeah there are tons of problems here, but for better or worse it's helped to shape who I've become. Whether I like it or not, my family lives here, and I'd feel weird saying I no longer had any ties to my family's home (it's less about the place itself and more about the fact that my family lives there, I think). So...I'm not a fan of that particular part of the US oath. I'm glad the UK doesn't have it.

As for whether I'd feel more comfortable swearing an oath to the land or to the ruler here...well I live in America. I think it's pretty easy to look at the current ruler and at my raaather liberal political beliefs and figure that one out. tongue.gif

To answer Nov's question: I would not kill for any country. Would I lie for my country? Probably not unless I thought it would be in danger if I didn't (why would I ever end up in a situation like that in the first place?). I will always vote in a way I think will change it for the better and speak out when I think things are being handled poorly there, though. And I'll keep requesting an absentee ballot every year as long as I live abroad. I'll do simple civic duties like voting...but killing? No. That goes beyond the loyalty I have to any place.
Cassidy
Difficult one...when I joined the army I had to swear alligence to the Queen and got something called the Queens shilling...It ment that I would be serving in the forces and under her represntitive ie the government of the day...apparently it was designed in that way so that the solidiers primary loyalty was to the throne and not just a perticular government.....

how ever as I like to to have a pagan view of the land and the king as one (think Excalliba the film) then loyalty to the monach is loyalty to the land....although the Queen being head of the C of E church does sort of ruin the idea.....

Now I would be happy to give my loyalty to the land....

Also when soldiers fight is it realy for some amophous idea such as loyalty to the Queen or rather is it loyalty to their comrades in arms....those who are sharing the horror and terror of war with them....their immediate friends...
bryden42
I have no loyalties other than those earned, and those need no oaths or payments to make them more real or binding, and yes I would kill for those loyalties given very specific circumstances.

(edit) and the england rugby team smile.gif
Cassidy
So what about the idea of freedom, honesty, truth...love would you be loyal to these concepts...
how do or did they earn your loyalty....
are you loyal to youself....
have ever acted loyaly to a believe that has no logical or empirical reason but it is simply what you feel and you have followed throgh with that believe despite or perhapse because of the difficulties involved...
have you ever loyaly stuck with an inanimate object somply because of sentimental attachments....refused to throw it out even though it would be impossible for it to earn or return feelings of loyalty....
I_am_the_best
I don't think I could ever be truly loyal to the Queen or the country. I am a fickle friend. If there were all too many problems in England, I would attempt to move to a different country. I have aspirations to join the army and so swearing allegience to the Queen is inevitable but to me, saying a paraphrase with your hand over your heart doesn't mean a great deal to me, I'd only remain loyal so long as they paid my university fees. I feel little respect for the Queen. I think that she is a more of a figurehead for the country, I'd rather pledge allegience to the country as a whole like a team, instead of an idol.
MistressAlti
I had to sign an oath of loyalty to the state of Oklahoma and its constitution to even hold student employment at the state university here... that make me feel pretty awkward, but hey, I gotta make money.

// random interjection...
bryden42
[quote=Cassidy,Mar 3 2006, 07:30 PM]
So what about the idea of freedom, honesty, truth...love would you be loyal to these concepts...[/quote]
Loyalty is also a concept and I tend to find that concepts do not mix well for example to love is not to be free, truth and honesty are not the same thing and i most deffinately could not apply love to most concepts. and besides a concept does not require loyalty it requires a choice to follow, loyalty is unthinking obedience! 2 different things.

[QUOTE]how do or did they earn your loyalty....[/QUOTE]
different ways but mostly it's intangible qualities of the individual and my belief in that person.

[QUOTE]are you loyal to youself....[/QUOTE]
Never, I am inconstant as the wind to myself, and a coward! and therefore never fight for myself

[QUOTE]
have ever acted loyaly to a believe that has no logical or empirical reason but it is simply what you feel and you have followed throgh with that believe despite or perhapse because of the difficulties involved...[/QUOTE]
Yes, I am pigheaded and stubborn but that has little to do with loyalty and more to do with my pigheaded stubborn ways

[QUOTE]
have you ever loyaly stuck with an inanimate object somply because of sentimental attachments....refused to throw it out even though it would be impossible for it to earn or return feelings of loyalty....[/QUOTE]
yes I have refused to throw out a t-shirt that should have died in the 80's that spawned it despite constant harrasment from S.O.'s and friends, this t-shirt is the most comfortable thing ever, it has always cleaned up even after serious abuse, never ripped despite same abuse, it somehow manages to be warm when i need it to, and cool in the heat, So if I were to personify the t-shirt I would say that it has earned my loyalty, although in this instance my loyalty is misleading as it is fully self serving I.E. I am only saving the t-shirt becaude it is doing something for me.
*

[/quote]
Cassidy
[quote=bryden42,Mar 4 2006, 12:02 PM]
[quote=Cassidy,Mar 3 2006, 07:30 PM]
So what about the idea of freedom, honesty, truth...love would you be loyal to these concepts...[/quote]
Loyalty is also a concept and I tend to find that concepts do not mix well for example to love is not to be free

....some would argue that you can only be free when you have unconditional love for someone or some thing...

besides a concept does not require loyalty it requires a choice to follow, loyalty is unthinking obedience! 2 different things.

....every body has a choice...the choice may be completly ineffective ie I choose to ignor the sun in death valley..but I still have the choice....so I can choose to be loyal to something/body/concept....the rules and expectations that go with that choice will vary on the individual choice and of course you can revoke that choice...

[QUOTE]how do or did they earn your loyalty....[/QUOTE]
different ways but mostly it's intangible qualities of the individual and my belief in that person.

...so intangible qualities ie a concept...which by your own words does not require loyalty...so what do they earn if it is not your loyalty ???

[QUOTE]are you loyal to youself....[/QUOTE]
Never, I am inconstant as the wind to myself, and a coward! and therefore never fight for myself

...You seem to be consistant in your veiws here...are you in danger of being loyal to yourself....

[Yes, I am pigheaded and stubborn but that has little to do with loyalty and more to do with my pigheaded stubborn ways

....pigheaded and stubbon ways...is that "unthinking obedience"...which is your idea of loyalty....


I would say that it has earned my loyalty, although in this instance my loyalty is misleading as it is fully self serving I.E. I am only saving the t-shirt becaude it is doing something for me.

....so the moment it is no longer capable to perform a service to you you will disspose of it....although I would sugest that it is a tool but you are still giving it your loyalty....


take care
bryden42
I don't really have the energy to argue this, It is a disagreement on definition and application which we will probably never agree upon, so I am going to bow out of this conversation now. smile.gif
Daria
I find myself unable to even imagine why people would want to join the army. For me it is such a bizarre concept. I suppose that is where loyalty comes in- I could never swear an oath to another if it means forgetting my own views and opinions i.e being in the army to fight for queen and country. It would mean being disloyal to myself and my own beliefs which I just couldn't do.
I don't adhere to a religion or to someone elses set of rules (apart from those which are imposed upon us by society)- I just can't get my head round why people feel the need to be governed by something which they have to be completely loyal to. I suppose I am a little selfish in the way that I have to be loyal to myself before anything else.
Usurper MrTeapot
I wouldn't join the army...unless my home was invaded by force. I think in any situation someone would take up arms if there is no other possiblity.

I'm a pacifist by nature, but if someone wanted to take away what is mine or someone close to me's then I would seriously consider renouncing pacifism. Especially if the other side had exhausted any possibility of a peaceful conclusion.
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