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Wookiee
Julian Cope:

QUOTE
...all I did was compare suicide bombers to 15-year-old My Chemical Romance fans, being similarly self-pitying, self-obsessed, solipsistic and misunderstood:

“Oh you just don’t take my God seriously, I’m gonna kill myself and take you all with me!”


Thoughts?
Mata
He might have an (inflamatory) point there.

Surely Allah would be more pleased if the bombers could kill non-Islamics without dying? It's become a point of pride to die whilst trying to kill others, and that just seems about as daft as you can get. If you place one bomb and it's found then never mind, you can keep going until one isn't, and then until a second one isn't, etc.

It's just as well I'm not a terrorist otherwise I'd be a real pain in the arse.
Jonman
QUOTE (Mata @ Mar 28 2006, 05:31 PM)
He might have an (inflamatory) point there.

Surely Allah would be more pleased if the bombers could kill non-Islamics without dying? It's become a point of pride to die whilst trying to kill others, and that just seems about as daft as you can get. If you place one bomb and it's found then never mind, you can keep going until one isn't, and then until a second one isn't, etc.

It's just as well I'm not a terrorist otherwise I'd be a real pain in the arse.
*


Nah, I don't think so. Isn't the point to die in the act of glorifying Allah by murdering the infidel? I mean, it's all well and good blowing up several million infidel, but what if you subsequently have a heart attack while having a five-knuckle shuffle on the bog at some later date? Some chance you'll be getting a squillion virgins in paradise.
bryden42
ok on the whole squillions of virgins front, are there that many left in heaven (or where-ever allah gets them from) I mean they must be in demand at the moment. Is Allah gonna get sued for false advertising or breaking a verbal contract if he cannot provide enough virgins? Just a (inflamatory) thought .
Jonman
QUOTE (bryden42 @ Mar 28 2006, 06:43 PM)
ok on the whole squillions of virgins front, are there that many left in heaven (or where-ever allah gets them from) I mean they must be in demand at the moment. Is Allah gonna get sued for false advertising or breaking a verbal contract if he cannot provide enough virgins? Just a (inflamatory) thought .
*


Virgins'R'Us. For all your virgin needs.
bryden42
QUOTE
Virgins'R'Us. For all your virgin needs.


aww i just yahoo'd that and I can't find it anywhere! sad.gif
Izzy
I'm not exactly 100% sure what you're talking about, but if it's why the suicide bombers are bombing places, I think it's because of two reasons. 1: It's part of their religion, and in their religion, it's a great honor to die like that. 2: They're being forced to do it by some dictator.
Don't think that was topic realted, but oh well.
gothictheysay
Actually I'd be interested to know exactly where and how this is placed in the religion, or if it's just a more radical extension of it. I believe it is - so many people practice Islam without that type of violence. Like some people are more fanatical than others.

And you know, a lot of people don't take their God seriously.
sjbbandgeek
From what I know, its like life insurance, to do a suicide bombing. The terrorist groups target young men who are having financial troubles, which incidentally happens to be most of the Mid East, and they give them benefits to help the men's families after they do the groups bidding.
Wookiee
Islam is basically the ultimate fat kid in junior school.

QUOTE (devils_daughter @ Mar 28 2006, 11:46 PM)
I'm not exactly 100% sure what you're talking about, but if it's why the suicide bombers are bombing places, I think it's because of two reasons. 1: It's part of their religion, and in their religion, it's a great honor to die like that. 2: They're being forced to do it by some dictator.
Don't think that was topic realted, but oh well.
*


A basic understanding of satire and world affairs will stead you well in future.
Daria
QUOTE (Wookiee @ Mar 29 2006, 11:25 AM)
Islam is basically the ultimate fat kid in junior school.

*

Absolutely fantasticaly put!
I only wish I had something that could top that but I am afraid it just isn't possible.
Witless
It goes like this, according to the religious texts, if you should be fighting a holy war ('jihad'), and you should die, then you shall automatically be seen as a saint in death, some kind of hero as you will. You get to bask in Allah's presence and and are essentially getting a "Advance directly to heaven" ticket.
It's honestly not that much different from soldier's laying down their lives for a country.

The problems come in how some of the more foolish members of Islam choose to interpret that. Basically some individuals are declaring holy wars, all over the place and then feeling that affords them rights to kill whoever they like.

For those fans of South Park.. remember that episode where they are going around with rifles shouting "It's coming right for us!" then blowing away deer with a high powered rifle? It's something like that. Idiots are defining for themselves when it is and when it's not a holy war and then acting upon it.

What's worse is these 'networks'. They aren't really networks as the governments are telling us.. if that were true you could take out the people at the centre and the thing would fall apart. In reality it certainly wouldn't. These tend to be self sufficient groups of people, so if you completely shut down one group, then others could erect themselves in their place.

As long as people continue to interpret the religious texts of Islam in this hideous weird way then there's not really going to be any permanant solution or fix for the problem.

It's just once again people interpreting a religious book in a horrible twisted way.
Even Catholics in the past of England have done the same things when they were feeling oppressed by Protestants. It's certainly not something limited to extremists in the Islamic religion. Islamic extremists just happened to do these things in the age of mass media so we're showered with reports of just how bad they're being.

This minority is sadly giving a bad rep to the majority. Islam is one of the worlds most common religions, it used to be the biggest only 15 years ago. If it were even 10% of these people doing what the media is demonising Islam for, then the whole world would be drawn into a war. So it really is a tiny tiny tiny minority of people, a number that would likely barely show up in the percentages that's causing so much world disruption.

Is islam the new emo, no not quite.. more like emo wannabe.
Izzy
I think this is placed in the religion because if you're doing a suicide bombing, you're sacricficing yourself for you're people, and by doing that you're pleasing your gods. This is pretty much based from books/ movies that took place around the 1500's, when people would sacrifice people to their gods.
Astarael
Good points, Witless. This small minority gets all the attention because they make the most noise and trouble. People want to see and understand things in little sound bites with black-and-white views, and radical views are usually easily carried over with a few raging sentences. A balanced view from a rational follower of Islam is going to take longer and be less outrageous than reporting the horrors of a few zealots.
pgrmdave
It's like judging christianity on the basis of Fred Phelps - it's just not indicitive of the true nature of the religion. Or, a better example, judging the church based on what it was like hundreds of years ago - when the leaders of the church held massive political sway, most people lived in poverty, and it was easy to blame problems on the 'other' people.
sjbbandgeek
There are plenty of peaceful Muslims, no doubt, but the ones we need to keep our eyes on are the extremist terrrorists. They are the ones waging a war on Western Civilization. And unless the governments of the world get their acts straight and recognize this threat, we will be defeated.
Witless
I personally feel we're more at risk defeating ourselves by blowing billions of our own budgets on these military campaigns than we are from terrorists.
Apollyon
QUOTE
And you know, a lot of people don't take their God seriously.


Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I thought that Islam, Christianity, and Judaeism(sp?) all shared the same god, and it was just who was or wasn't a prophet of him that separates them.

Just a random thought...
Spacehappy
QUOTE (Witless @ Mar 29 2006, 12:50 PM)
It goes like this, according to the religious texts, if you should be fighting a holy war ('jihad'), and you should die, then you shall automatically be seen as a saint in death, some kind of hero as you will. You get to bask in Allah's presence and and are essentially getting a "Advance directly to heaven" ticket.
It's honestly not that much different from soldier's laying down their lives for a country.

The problems come in how some of the more foolish members of Islam choose to interpret that. Basically some individuals are declaring holy wars, all over the place and then feeling that affords them rights to kill whoever they like.

For those fans of South Park.. remember that episode where they are going around with rifles shouting "It's coming right for us!" then blowing away deer with a high powered rifle? It's something like that. Idiots are defining for themselves when it is and when it's not a holy war and then acting upon it.

What's worse is these 'networks'. They aren't really networks as the governments are telling us.. if that were true you could take out the people at the centre and the thing would fall apart. In reality it certainly wouldn't. These tend to be self sufficient groups of people, so if you completely shut down one group, then others could erect themselves in their place.

As long as people continue to interpret the religious texts of Islam in this hideous weird way then there's not really going to be any permanant solution or fix for the problem.

It's just once again people interpreting a religious book in a horrible twisted way.
Even Catholics in the past of England have done the same things when they were feeling oppressed by Protestants. It's certainly not something limited to extremists in the Islamic religion. Islamic extremists just happened to do these things in the age of mass media so we're showered with reports of just how bad they're being.

This minority is sadly giving a bad rep to the majority. Islam is one of the worlds most common religions, it used to be the biggest only 15 years ago. If it were even 10% of these people doing what the media is demonising Islam for, then the whole world would be drawn into a war. So it really is a tiny tiny tiny minority of people, a number that would likely barely show up in the percentages that's causing so much world disruption.

Is islam the new emo, no not quite.. more like emo wannabe.
*


Can i just say Awesome post Witless. Could not have said it better ....without swearing.
Mata
QUOTE (Witless @ Mar 29 2006, 12:50 PM)
It goes like this, according to the religious texts, if you should be fighting a holy war ('jihad'), and you should die, then you shall automatically be seen as a saint in death, some kind of hero as you will. You get to bask in Allah's presence and and are essentially getting a "Advance directly to heaven" ticket.
It's honestly not that much different from soldier's laying down their lives for a country.
*

I disagree with you there: those who blow themselves up may think that they are acting like soldiers, but a soldier doesn't deliberately lay down their life for their country because that country will have invested a lot of time and money in their training and will be weaker for the loss of a good soldier! A soldier has a duty to defend their own life so that they can continue to defend their country. Suicide bombing comes from a perspective where tiny dents to the life and morale of a population are seen as a victory. A soldier may lay down their life deliberately by making a choice to defend something worth dying for, but they will not deliberately die.

For me, it is the deliberate choice to die that marks suicide bombers as being so very, very different from soldiers. There are many other obvious differences too, but the defence of the bombers usually tries to position them as soldiers and it is through undermining the validity of that argument that real progress can be made. Allah loves his creations and does not want them to kill themselves when they could live and continue to spread the worship of his glory: bombers have a twisted interpretation of this basic message in which the manner of death becomes more important than the choices in life. A soldier lives in the opposite way where their choices in life are of the utmost importance and their eventual death is preferably very far away from the battlefield!

QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Mar 30 2006, 05:01 AM)
There are plenty of peaceful Muslims, no doubt, but the ones we need to keep our eyes on are the extremist terrrorists.
*

Absolutely. The moderate terrorists are all completely fine, as are the liberal ones, it's definitely the extremist terrorists you have to watch out for.

QUOTE (sjbbandgeek @ Mar 30 2006, 05:01 AM)
They are the ones waging a war on Western Civilization. And unless the governments of the world get their acts straight and recognize this threat, we will be defeated.
*

The government of Britian has been aware of this certainly very strongly for around thirty years, Spain has been having a lasting issue with terrorism, Palestine and Israel have been calling each-other terrorists for years. In the UK we even have a national holiday to celebrate the capture of a terrorist group 401 years ago. I think the world is perfectly aware of terrorism and entirely realises its existence and importance... But therein lies the issue.

What is the actual importance of terrorism? Yes, it kills a small number of people, and it could happen to any of us or our loved ones. Yes, it is tragic, but are these people worth glorifying with the status of being 'at war' with them? That makes it sound like they are actually a legitimate threat to our whole society which is just so obviously false it doesn't even bear thinking about. They can bomb us, poison us, gas us, but those that are left will still have bills to pay. Society will continue because you can't kill a whole society. If terrorism were to actually stand a decent chance of mounting a full invasion and takeover of a country in the manner of a military coup then, yes, that would be a threat to 'Western Civilisation' (nice capitalisation there, it makes it sound like that is actually a real thing, not a massively vague grouping), but until it appears likely that terrorists can simultaneously destroy every major city in the first world then life will continue as usual no matter how many they kill.

Do you know what I did the day after the London bombings? The same as I did the day before. Do you know what London was doing the next week? The same as the week before.

I know that America has had the largest successful terrorist attack in history done to it, and it is tragic for those people who died and their families, but more people die every single day from thirst, hunger, or preventable disease than were killed once in those towers. I'm not saying that their individual lives are worth more than any American individual, but let's get things in perspective here: if Britain, the US, and our few remaining allies were to push the money that they've found to put Iraq into a state of civil war into funding world water aid and food programs then they could change the face of the planet for the better and make this world safer for all of us.

Violence begets violence. So much for turning the other cheek.
FeralPolyglot
As long as this thread seems to be turning to the topic of Terrorism... I think the "War on Terror" is somewhat inane. It's not like having a war against X-people where if you get rid of all of them there'll be no more to breed, hence no more to reproduce more Terrorists. Terrorism is more like a way of thinking. To declare a war against a way of thinking and have an attack on a country be at the front of the war would seem to be utterly ineffective. To fight a way of thinking, tactics should be angled to change people's minds.. propaganda.

Getting back on the Islam topic of the thread, I think the point that the radical minority gives the majority a bad name is very true. That's true with any highly publicized radical minority. Catholics, Americans, Gays, Feminists, etc. etc. The moderate and low-profile majority of these people who just live their lives out peacefully don't get news coverage. The nut-jobs who vehemontly fight are, unfortunately, the ones who get remembered and the ones who give ___________ a bad name.
PsychWardMike
To be frank, I'm tired of Islam. It seems that every time anyone says something slightly against it, there's an attack. It seems like every time someone sneezes, there's another car bombing. You know what? I'm sick of it. I really am.

Yes, sure there are lots of peaceful practioners. Good for them. My question, however, is this: where are the protests? Christians protest against other Christians that are corrupt and misled (Fred Phelps, for instance) so why is it that I've yet to see a march in protest of the peaceful Muslims? Do you not think that it would serve there purpose of gaining acceptance to at least show a sign of good faith?
Usurper MrTeapot
Muslims do protest, but its true I've never heard of a protest about Islam.

From what I can understand about people I know who are Muslim, is that they know what they believe in and thats their belief. As long as someone doesn't openly attack them then they just get on with their lives. Quite similar to Catholics really. You sort of even forget they are religious until something causes them to speak out.

When there were the rallies in England against the war in Iraq I was told about it before the posters started going up by Ishmeil, a good muslim friend of mine. Protests against religion are quite stupid, but protests against stupidity are well justified.
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Apr 16 2006, 09:26 AM)
To be frank, I'm tired of Islam.  It seems that every time anyone says something slightly against it, there's an attack.  It seems like every time someone sneezes, there's another car bombing.  You know what?  I'm sick of it.  I really am.

Yes, sure there are lots of peaceful practioners.  Good for them.  My question, however, is this: where are the protests?  Christians protest against other Christians that are corrupt and misled (Fred Phelps, for instance) so why is it that I've yet to see a march in protest of the peaceful Muslims?  Do you not think that it would serve there purpose of gaining acceptance to at least show a sign of good faith?
*


Muslems don't protest like Christians because they're not like Christians, plain and simple. As far as I've been told (and there are quite a few Muslem students who attend my Uni), they're not suppossed to be overly vocal about their faith at all, and I don't believe (though I don't know for sure) that they have that clause that Christians do, about 'spreading the word' and such.

Or it could be because they're more conservative about their faith.
PsychWardMike
Well then if they're supposed to be quiet about their faith, then how can there logically be extremists?
Novander
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Apr 17 2006, 09:58 PM)
Well then if they're supposed to be quiet about their faith, then how can there logically be extremists?
*

When has logic ever had anything to do with religion?
pgrmdave
QUOTE
Well then if they're supposed to be quiet about their faith, then how can there logically be extremists?


The point is that the mainstream ones won't, not that the extreme ones won't. The more important point is that you cannot judge a religion based on the loudest voices because the loudest voices will almost always be extreme, and not the norm.
gothictheysay
PWM:
Because many people take their religion the wrong way and don't seem to practice it the way it was meant to be. I'm sure not every Christian loves their neighbor - look at the right wing. So not every Muslim does the same thing.

I think every religion gets extreme, just at different points in time. Think of the crusades and the time of the Reformation when Christianity was corrupt. And I know every religion does this, my examples just use Christianity because it's the easiest one to think of examples for because it's such a common religion.

So I do get irked when people make blanket statements like "Islam is a whacked-out religion".
Witless
Check out Europeon history to see examples of Christian terrorism, from bombings in London (Guyfawkes) to acts sacrificing themselves "for the greater good" in war like fashion.

I'm pretty sure suicide and bombings are frowned upon in the bible, but christians performed them in europe when they felt oppressed in the past all the same. Just because in our lifetime it happens to be Islam in the lime light for it. It certainly doesn't mean they're the only ones capable.

I repeat the words.. it's not the religion, it's the idiot minority people that do these things.
Calantyr
In Islam suicides, religious killings, and violence in general is frowned upon or outright forbidden.

But like in all faiths people like to pick and choose what bits apply to them, and others are simply led.
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Apr 17 2006, 03:58 PM)
Well then if they're supposed to be quiet about their faith, then how can there logically be extremists?
*


Because extremests don't follow their faith correctly.

That's what makes them extremeists.

Remember that whole 'Do unto others' bit that Christians are suppossed to follow?

Yeah, same type of thing.
The Chief
I am not interested in people who use religion as a weapon like suicide bombers they are just plain evil people. These people are who claim they are blowing themselves up in the name of who ever are so stupid and backwards in their belief, I am disgusted with them all.
Witless
If I'm honest I can perfectly understand why they are doing what they're doing. I think it's wrong. But I can understand it.

Consider this, they're in an area of the world we're some crazy dictator is ruling, he's a bastard, but the countries under control as long as you're on the right side of the law.. even if those laws are inhumanly twisted.
Then one day the people from the countries where everything is great and the streets are made of gold (from their point of view) claim that you and the people like you are evil and need a bombing like a bombing you've never seen before.
Far worse than your current ruler has ever done.

You don't even know for sure anyone from your own country did any of the things being said, since no decent proof of this has ever come forward. But in the back of your mind is thought hopeful thought that maybe things will get better with mr dictator gone. Sadly you are mistaken, after surviving the bombing from hell the troops don't withdraw and let you get back to business.. instead the whole region's turned into a hell zone as you're pounded country gets occupied. Reports flood in from around the world that every media in the country has painted your people as some kind of ungrateful lunatics..

So.. you've lived under a cruel ruler.. only to now be occupied, and seen as some evil person for "attacking the west first". Way to kick you while your down huh? Lifes shit, and not getting better as the people in your country with no true political struture fall apart since nothing was properly set up to replace what was destroyed. All the while no one seems to bothered.. and the money supposedly sent to rebuild your country from the west doesn't seem to be arriving!

More people you knew and loved are dead since the west attacked than under Mr. dictator ruled. But still no ones listening to your plees. You're starting to feel like your being bullied by the west. Belittled, not listened to and powerless.
So.. just like in one of the other threads in the forums about bullying you "stand up for yourself". First with protests, then with riots, then with criminal destruction of whatever you can touch. STILL no ones listening to you, and what's worse is that the world is rediculing you even more and listening to you less!

"Shout louder!" is what you need to do right? "If I ignore the situation they'll walk all over me even more!" correct? So step up to using guns and try to get the people occupying the country to understand that they shouldn't be here. They need get out. Sadly this is the western military we're talking about. That russian gun you found lying in a back alley isn't cutting it. These people are going to gun you down with out a second thought. The world probably won't even hear about it. What's the point? You need to do something everyone will notice, so that maybe the people you left behind will be left alone by these people that don't listen, right?

But no.. you can't go down the route of suicide.. that's wrong, you don't agree with people that say the Quran says it's ok. That's just rediculous isn't it?
So some time passes.. your anger increases. Your best friend has been going to these meetings and coming back and telling you all these radical ideas.. and all this circumstantial correlations between the western forces, and the forces of evil in the Quran. Considering the state of your life recently.. you know.. it does kinda make sense. You can see where it's coming from... a few months later your convinced!

Tadah, one fully self justified suicide bomber!

I'm not saying it's fair enough to be this way, on the contrary. It's like killing anyone in the name of vengence. It's foolish, stupid and just creates more violence. But I can't say that it makes no sense. Put the majority of the people in the world in that situation and they'd react the same way. I'm pretty sure if the rest of the world decided the US was being a bully, and then bombed them into submission, and occupied them. Some hardcore US partriots would form an underground movement and start blowing people up indisriminately.

It's easy to critise people as evil from a far with the phrase "they're evil", but I am doubtful the world's as black and white as that.

The terrorists from the middle east made be guilty of xenophobic violent actions against the west but, from their point of view we're being xenophobically ignorant out here. People that feel ignored tend to react badly.

It's happened in the past, it's happening now, and most likely in our lifetime.. some other group will do it again.

Heh.. maybe if the wealth of the world migrates to the east.. maybe we'll be the the future terrorists trying to get people to understand.

*shrugs*
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 08:16 AM) *
I am not interested in people who use religion as a weapon like suicide bombers they are just plain evil people. These people are who claim they are blowing themselves up in the name of who ever are so stupid and backwards in their belief, I am disgusted with them all.


I do believe that that's the most ethnocentric statement I've heard in a long while. dry.gif

Just because you disagree with what they believe and fail to understand where they're coming from, doesn't make them 'stupid and backwards' in their beliefs and definately doesn't make them 'evil people.'
The Chief
QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Apr 19 2006, 06:25 PM) *
I do believe that that's the most ethnocentric statement I've heard in a long while.

Really your comments were just as forthright.

QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Apr 19 2006, 06:25 PM) *
Just because you disagree with what they believe and fail to understand where they're coming from

Are you telling me a terrorist has the right to kill incident people just because they believe their religion gives them the right to kill?


QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Apr 19 2006, 06:25 PM) *
doesn't make them 'stupid and backwards' in their beliefs and definately doesn't make them 'evil people.'

Any person who uses religion as an excuse to kill others is sick; suicide bombing is an evil act. One such act took place in London last year. Were those suicide bombers justified by their belief in their religion. To kill innocent people, they were sick and backward in their belief.
Witless
QUOTE
Any person who uses religion as an excuse to kill others is sick; suicide bombing is an evil act.


Killing because of what someone believes in is wrong in every context.. including every war started in recorded history. Comparing terrorists to the acts the world's super militarys are involved in is like comparing someone throwing a grenade to someone detonating a nuclear device.
Izzy
There was another suicide bomber a few days ago. .....It was kind of annoying the way the news put it,"blah blah blah people injured, blah blah blah people dead, and among the dead blah blah blah number of Americans." Then the news said something about the government of the place that got attacked that it was their fault cause they attacked the suicide bomers country. Or something like that. And then something about $50 mil going to some government...And some other boring stuff.

Question for those who want to answer: If you lived in Bagdad, or Islam, or some other part of The Third World, and your dictator said to you "Be a suicide bomber, or I kill you can your family, " would you do it?Answer honestly.

My answer: yeah probaly, you're going to die either way, might was well save your family.

Edit* okay, reconsidering original answer. Lots of people are gonna end up dead either way. Time to decide which is more important to YOU. Family I guess, okay sticking with original answer. Oh, and "running away so they don't get to me" isn't a choice.
pgrmdave
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 03:16 PM) *
QUOTE (trunks_girl26 @ Apr 19 2006, 06:25 PM) *


Just because you disagree with what they believe and fail to understand where they're coming from

Are you telling me a terrorist has the right to kill incident people just because they believe their religion gives them the right to kill?


Actually, she didn't say that at all. If you're going to debate in any manner, please, no strawman arguments. You disagree with what they believe and most likely fail to understand where they are coming from - trunks_girl26 merely pointed out that just because you don't understand them doesn't mean that they(and please, define 'they') are 'stupid and backwards' or 'evil'.

QUOTE (devils_daughter)
If you lived in Bagdad, or Islam, or some other part of The Third World, and your dictator said to you "Be a suicide bomber, or I kill you can your family, " would you do it?Answer honestly.


Honestly? I don't know. I hope that I'd find a solution that would involve no death (fleeing, hiding, etc.). However, I also think that it is too foreign for me to understand really - the idea of living under a dictator, of being in a place where suicide bombers are common, where a person's rights are as strong as their weapons. I can't really imagine who I'd be if I lived somewhere like that.
elphaba2
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ Apr 19 2006, 04:14 PM) *
Question for those who want to answer: If you lived in Bagdad, or Islam, or some other part of The Third World, and your dictator said to you "Be a suicide bomber, or I kill you can your family, " would you do it?Answer honestly.

I'm going to get slapped with a big sign that says "PEDANT", but for Bob's sake, "Islam" is not a country. It's a religion. People who practice it are called Muslims.

And I'm not going to answer that question, for similar reasons to Dave's--I can't really put myself in a situation in which the choice is the kill lots of people. I don't know how I'd react to that!
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 03:16 PM) *
Really your comments were just as forthright.


forth·right

1. Direct and without evasion; straightforward: a forthright appraisal; forthright criticism.

eth·no·cen·trism

1. Belief in the superiority of one's own ethnic group.

I believe you're a bit confused as to the meanings of ethnocentric and forthright.

QUOTE
Are you telling me a terrorist has the right to kill incident people just because they believe their religion gives them the right to kill?


Please feel free to point out where I said that anyone has the right to do anything, because I certainly don't remember writing that.


QUOTE
Any person who uses religion as an excuse to kill others is sick; suicide bombing is an evil act. One such act took place in London last year. Were those suicide bombers justified by their belief in their religion. To kill innocent people, they were sick and backward in their belief.


1. They're sick through your culture's eyes (not to mention that that's a very ignorant statement, seeing as just about every religion ever established has used it to their means, and many prominant ones have used it to justify killing.

2. Unless you've actually lived where these suicide bombers have been created, then you're really in no position to say what 'they' have been through in order to turn 'them' into terrorists.

3. Guess what? I live in NJ, and during the twin towers attack, had my father been working in his other office, he would have been killed. I may hate what they have done, but I still can understand where they are coming from. So please, don't talk as if I've not seen what has been going on.

In case you're not aware, there's quite a difference between evil acts and evil people, so I suggest that you refrain from making blanket statements that make you seem ignorant on top of being without understanding.
The Chief
trunks_girl26 your case is shallow I know more about their thinking than you know. I am older and wiser than you; I suggest you read more on the subject. There is more to it a lot more, but I do give you credit.

[Mods have made their own suggestions to The Chief. Move along please, move along - Mata]
Felander
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 11:29 PM) *
trunks_girl26 your case is shallow I know more about their thinking than you know. I am older and wiser than you; I suggest you read more on the subject. There is more to it a lot more, but I do give you credit.

...

Ooo, you got taken to poon town there, Ange.

I think that is one of the worst rebuttals every in the history of the Issues forum.
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 06:29 PM) *
trunks_girl26 your case is shallow I know more about their thinking than you know. I am older and wiser than you; I suggest you read more on the subject. There is more to it a lot more, but I do give you credit.


First of all, I'm rather insulted by your obvious agism as well as your ethnocentrism.

Second of all, this is the Issues forum for a reason, I suggest you actually back up your claims (since you 'obviously know more than me'), or please kindly leave the debating forums.

Third of all, how dare you insinuate what I do and don't know about anything. I have presented an argument, and you've failed to produce a rebuttal.

Last of all, for as you say, an older and wiser person, your grammar is rather poor. I'd be ashamed of calling myself educated if I typed like that.
bryden42
QUOTE
Killing because of what someone believes in is wrong in every context..


beats being killed for what someone was considering! or maybe being killed for something someone was pretending to like!
Novander
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 11:29 PM) *
trunks_girl26 I am older and wiser than you

Okay, that's getting a little close to a personal attack. Older, maybe (can't be bothered with checking dates. I'll take your word for it. You seem like a trustworthy fellow) but having been on this forum for what, two whole days now? I don't think you're ready to be making statements about the wisdom of other forumites.

Yes, from my point of view the suicide bombers are stupid. But that's because I don't have faith in their God. I understand that they take comfort in their faith, and have been pushed to believe that comfort will continue after death if they die in 'service' of their religion.

I wouldn't call them evil, though. They honestly believe they're doing the right thing. So much so that they're willing to die for it. I'm also wondering how people definte 'evil'. As far as I can see, real evil can't exist without the presence of real good (ie. some sort of deity), so IMO calling them evil lends weight more to their arguement than ours. Anyway, I'm going to stop here before I digress too far into the realms of philosophy.

edit: funky new quick edit! I like.
Feyliya
You know, I was just thinking this morning, "Wow! Matazone seems so nice and quiet lately! All the new noobs are behaving, there hasn't been a flame war since I can remember, it's lovely!" rolleyes.gif

All I've got to say is, if you're going to debate in the Matazone Issues Forum, you'd better bring your "A" game and lots of proof, 'cause I don't think there's ever been a group of smarter, better informed debaters. At least not on the net.

/spam
The Chief
trunks_girl26 I am not here to get in an unproductive argument with you. For the second time I give you credit.

Matter Closed.
trunks_girl26
QUOTE (The Chief @ Apr 19 2006, 07:29 PM) *
trunks_girl26 I am not here to get in an unproductive argument with you. For the second time I give you credit.

Matter Closed.


And for the second time I'm letting you know that in this forum people have debates. I highly doubt that you know the meaning of that either, given your lack of providing some sort of argument beyond "I'm right and you're wrong and that's all there is to it."

I suggest you post in Issues only when you learn how to have a debate.

Matter closed.
Feyliya
Actually, I don't believe the matter will be closed until you have appologized to Ange. What you said was horribly rude.
Phyllis
QUOTE (Feyliya @ Apr 19 2006, 04:38 PM) *
Actually, I don't believe the matter will be closed until you have appologized to Ange. What you said was horribly rude.

Agreed. There's absolutely no reason to bring Ange's age into a discussion. Just because you may have lived longer (though I don't know about that...you don't have an age listed in your profile), it doesn't make you any wiser. Nor is it an effective method of debating. It's the adult (and I use that term loosely) equivalent of saying, "I win because...YOU SMELL!!!"
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