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Calantyr
Consider that you are of fighting age. For some reason war breaks out between your country and one or more others.

Under what conditions would you go to war? Would you at all? Would you have to be conscripted? If there is conscription in your country already, would you comply with orders? Would you flee to another country?


This thought has been banging around in my head for a short while now. If my country were acting in a fashion I thought evil, wrong, bloody stupid and our citizens let them go along with it... then no, I wouldn't help them. Some people may say I was acting like a coward or being short-sighted, I'd say I were standing by my principles.

I'm not a particularly nationalistic person. I don't do things for my country just because it's 'expected'. It's the reason I wouldn't willingly join the army.

If I did I would then be placed in the position where I would HAVE to do things I disagree with. On the news we have lots of stories about men and women in the armed forced who refuse to go to Iraq etc. because it's against their principles. Illegal war, etc.

I think they're idiots. By joining the army of their own free will they signed a contract where their lives are no longer their own. They do what they are told (within reason, no shooting prisoners please).

That is not something I can agree to.

Of course if hordes of evöl Swedes suddenly decided to invade the UK from out of the Blue I think I would gladly take up arms against them.

Anyway, discuss! Are there any other concientious objectors out there? smile.gif
Phyllis
Pretty appropriate subject. Did you know that May 15th is International Conscientious Objector's Day? Well, it's still May 15th where I live for about 3 more hours, anyway.

Anyway, to answer your question...no. I would never march off to war. Nor would I join any of the armed forces. I would most certainly be a conscientious objector in the event of a draft (if I were male. Under the current system it's kind of an irrelevant question since I am not). Even if my country was invaded, I would not pick up arms. I would not kill another person for any cause.

I disagree with you on the subject of Conscientious Objectors who are already in the military. If they just joined recently, then yes it is a bit silly to object. They know the current situation. But if it is a person who has been in the military long before the conflict in Iraq, and simply refuses to participate in a war that s/he feels is unjust...I don't think that is stupid. You can pledge service to your country, but still refuse to participate in a war that you feel is senseless.

When a person enters into the military, s/he does not pledge away his/her mind or morals. As much as I hate war in all its horror and pointlessness, it makes me feel slightly better that those who feel it is wrong are not simply blindly following orders anyway. A soldier has every right, in my opinion, to refuse to engage in behavior that s/he views as immoral. If they don't...then that creates the potential for a very frightening situation.
Usurper MrTeapot
I hate violence, I would do absolutely anything to avoid either myself fighting or someone else fighting. I marched in peace rallies against the war in Iraq and would do so again as soon as I see a poster go up about one. But that is us going to them.

If it was someone invading my home then I would do something. I'd still try to do something other than directly fight, something along the lines of the Dutch Resistance, but if it came down to it then I would. I doubt anyone would willingly let an unwanted person to take over their home.
Witless
Some people outside the UK have to join the military, it's law.

Take finland, males HAVE to join for a year out of their life, some countries say two years.
Some people join because it will allow them to get into college with more ease, and some people join because of pressure from the family.

There's a load of reasons why people join that go a ways past the ideal 'It seems like a great place to be'.
There's probably 1000 situations in life where you're not going to like everything about a situation you enter into. Just like marriage for example.. you can't say someone gives up their right to not like everything about a situation the moment they say 'I do'.

I don't really know everything you have to sign to join the military, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say at any point, "sign here to give up your right to stand up for your beliefs". I was pretty shocked by what the western military did in Iraq, I couldn't predict that's what the government was gonna do. I could at best.. 'suspect' it.
I'm pretty sure the soliders in the military couldn't either.

The military's not a normal situation, it's your life your laying on the line, and it's other people's lives you may often be taking. Having doubts when the stakes are your own and others lives is pretty serious thing to have.


Back on topic, no I wouldn't join the military or fight for war, and when people called me a coward, I'd carry on not caring. Quite simply I'd prefer to be bombed than fighting the 99% people that have nothing to do with the ideal I'm fighting against.
Even if the government could insure me that each and every person I harmed was someone personally responsible for the ideals I'd be fighting against, I still don't think "smack it until it works" is a good way to sort out anything (Windows XP being the exception.)

Everyone in war is a loser, most of all the civilian people on both sides. Since I am not much of a nationalist I can't even say I'd take much in the way of pride from being on the side that completed it's military objectives and I'd certainly not being doing too well if on the losing side.

If I were fighting in a war I would basically just turn into a emotional wreck, one that has sucessfully broken up about a million of my own personal boundries. And on a bigger than me level, wow, 10 years of partial pseudo stability until the next conflict. Well excuse me if I don't feel too impressed by that notion.

No I wouldn't fight, I'll sit here and get bombed in world war 3. At least I can die staying myself, and not die a dog of war on the frontline.
Sir Psycho Sexy
Would I march off to war? No

Would I defend my country? Yes, as long as I got to wear a beret.
vicrawr
As of right now, I probably couldn't get into the military if my life depended on it. Plus...c'mon, giving me a fully automatic weapon is not intelligent. But, if I could!

If I were picked in the Selective Service (read: draft), I'd carefully look over all my options. Depending on what I had to choose from, I'd go or stay. I won't say that I wouldn't participate at all, even if we were attacking and not being attacked.

However, if someone actually physically attacked the United States, troops and invasions and all that good stuff, then I could definitely say that, yes, I would join the service and march out to war, as long as it was here defending it.
{Gothic Angel}
No. Even if I was conscripted, I would fight tooth and nail not to join. The only reason I would use physical violence willingly is in self-defence. Even if another country attacked mine first, with no provocation at all, I still maintain that soldiers killing each other is going to do nothing to resolve the issue. Diplomacy and politics were invented for a reason, whatever anyone's personal opinion on how effective they are.
monkey_called_narth
Apparently there are alot of no war theroists here on the board. i personnaly would like to think of myself as one, but truth be told, there are conditions that deem war nessisary. the Nazi's being one of them. Facism is a system that cant be overthrown from within, and note that sadam is not a facist. so in cases of extream facism, i.e. nazi germany, saudia arabia (some of the worst human rights since the nazis), turkey(with concentration camps for the kurds), and tibet (with more concentration camps). i could support an _intervention_ in these countries, and note that just war has no bombing raids, and very few- if any casulaties.

I would never join the armed forces, a standing army is a form of violence created to keep divisions of class in line.
Cassidy
If my country was being invaded then yes....
joining the army to preempt an aggresor then probably not..
I am generally peacefull but if I had to defend my loved ones from being killed I am not sure how far I would go....
How strong are a persons belifes in non violence, if through your inaction your mother, father, sibling, or any loved one was killed how would you feel.
is an indivdualls beliefs worth somebody elses death..
Me personally, I totally respect those who would never harm another human being but I am not that strong. so if it came down to a choice between a someone I loved or compromising my non violent belives then I know what I would do...
But with the Army there are many non combat positions soldiers, in fact the majority of soldies are in the support units with only a small percentage in the line or teeth regiments, it may even be as high as 80% support.
Also in the past there have be concientious objectors who have served in the forces and won medals for incredible bravery under fire, stretcher bearers, medics and others, they were often killed as they were im the front line but refused a weapon...
Any way you look at it the choices are difficult...
Izzy
I'm not sure if I would march of to war right away, but I'd definatly consider it. I mean, there's good bennifts. A lot of the people in my family were in the army/navy, and I'd be kinda cool to carry down the 'tradition'. I wouldn't nesicarily want to be one of the people fighting, but maybe doing something on the computer, or in the navy, or a bomb pilot.

This should go under the 'I remember when...' topic but..
I remember when me and my cousin would put one camoflauge and run around in the words near his house with bb guns and paintball guns pretending to be in the army. It was alot of fun. Except for the few ocasions when we'd shoot each other bbs just to see what it felt like running around saying "I'm a human target!Catch me if you can!"

I'd definatly consider the army, even though I can't stand the Go-Army commericals...
Phyllis
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 18 2006, 02:19 PM) *
I'm not sure if I would march of to war right away, but I'd definatly consider it. I mean, there's good bennifts. A lot of the people in my family were in the army/navy, and I'd be kinda cool to carry down the 'tradition'. I wouldn't nesicarily want to be one of the people fighting, but maybe doing something on the computer, or in the navy, or a bomb pilot.

Benefits? What benefit is possibly worth getting killed and/or having to actually kill other people? There is nothing anyone could give me that would make me do that.

And...how is a "bomb pilot" not someone who is fighting? If you're dropping bombs on people...I'd classify that as fighting... huh.gif
vicrawr
QUOTE (candice @ May 18 2006, 07:20 PM) *
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 18 2006, 02:19 PM) *

I'm not sure if I would march of to war right away, but I'd definatly consider it. I mean, there's good bennifts. A lot of the people in my family were in the army/navy, and I'd be kinda cool to carry down the 'tradition'. I wouldn't nesicarily want to be one of the people fighting, but maybe doing something on the computer, or in the navy, or a bomb pilot.

Benefits? What benefit is possibly worth getting killed and/or having to actually kill other people? There is nothing anyone could give me that would make me do that.


Money!
Phyllis
QUOTE (IrishGuy @ May 18 2006, 05:21 PM) *
QUOTE (candice @ May 18 2006, 07:20 PM) *

Benefits? What benefit is possibly worth getting killed and/or having to actually kill other people? There is nothing anyone could give me that would make me do that.


Money!

I really don't think any amount of money is worth someone else's life.
vicrawr
QUOTE (candice @ May 18 2006, 08:51 PM) *
QUOTE (IrishGuy @ May 18 2006, 05:21 PM) *

QUOTE (candice @ May 18 2006, 07:20 PM) *

Benefits? What benefit is possibly worth getting killed and/or having to actually kill other people? There is nothing anyone could give me that would make me do that.


Money!

I really don't think any amount of money is worth someone else's life.


Agreed, however, when you have very little to none, the amount the military offers you looks very good.
Izzy
QUOTE (candice @ May 19 2006, 01:20 AM) *
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 18 2006, 02:19 PM) *

I'm not sure if I would march of to war right away, but I'd definatly consider it. I mean, there's good bennifts. A lot of the people in my family were in the army/navy, and I'd be kinda cool to carry down the 'tradition'. I wouldn't nesicarily want to be one of the people fighting, but maybe doing something on the computer, or in the navy, or a bomb pilot.

Benefits? What benefit is possibly worth getting killed and/or having to actually kill other people? There is nothing anyone could give me that would make me do that.
Benefits are the college education and, like Irish Guy said, you get paid. Even if money isn't worth taking someone's life, you need money to live.
QUOTE
And...how is a "bomb pilot" not someone who is fighting? If you're dropping bombs on people...I'd classify that as fighting... huh.gif

When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.
Witless
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 19 2006, 11:41 AM) *
When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.


Ah.. so as long as you can't see the ones you kill then it's 'out of sight, out of mind?'
Calantyr
QUOTE (Witless @ May 19 2006, 12:54 PM) *
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 19 2006, 11:41 AM) *

When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.


Ah.. so as long as you can't see the ones you kill then it's 'out of sight, out of mind?'


Hey Witless, our taxes pay for the war machine. We're killers too.

And Candice, you actually DO sign away your morals when you sign up. You agree to follow the orders of your superior officer whether it can mean your death or the death of others. If people could pick and choose what orders to follow then the entire military would fall to pieces. That's why if you ever refuse an order there is an inquiry, even if you were following the 'Rules of War' and not shooting civilians. There is still an inquiry into whether you were justified in disobeying.


I think theres a degree of proportion where taking up arms is justified. It depends on what the enemies agenda is. My nation could start the war through bloody pig-headedness, but I would fight if the enemies agenda was the complete irradication of my way of life or the persecution of friends and family (for example, Nazi's). I wouldn't fight if the enemy carved up the nation but treated everyone fairly and humanely. Why should I? We would have brought it on ourselves.

For example, say the entire chain of command were (for some bizzare reason) on a huge LSD bender and decided to launch all their nukes around the world. If a giant Coalition declared war on us and took over the country I would just shrug my shoulders. Fair enough. However if they wanted to exact vengeance on the population I would have a thing or two to say about it. The repurcussion has to be proportionate to the crime, otherwise resistance becomes an option.

And yeah, I'm arrogant enough to choose where I draw the line. wink.gif
pgrmdave
War is a last resort, but it must be a resort. There have been examples in history of unreasonable leaders who were determined to cause harm to others in some manner and who could not be stopped except by physical force, unfortunately, to those who fought for him. Because I can accept that war is a necessity in some cases, I cannot be arrogent nor cowardly enough to say that it should be okay for others to die, but I don't think that I should be put in harms way. If a war was just and necessary, and I felt that I would best serve the world's and my nation's interests by fighting in the armed forces, then I would sign up.
Izzy
QUOTE (Witless @ May 19 2006, 01:54 PM) *
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 19 2006, 11:41 AM) *

When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.


Ah.. so as long as you can't see the ones you kill then it's 'out of sight, out of mind?'

You'd have to see them to kill them.
I_am_the_best
I'd go off to war. I want to be in the military band - not a foot soldier. I've found a way in which the army will pay to get me through university, taking a lot of monetary strain off my parents. My horn teacher has talked to several of his 'army pals' who have tried to get me a secured place in the army however personally I am more inclined to go with the RAF because they play to a higher musical standard and are so much more proffessional. I don't care what the army is fighting for, whether I think it's wrong or right, I just want to be part of the band and get through university without anyone being too far in debt.
Phyllis
QUOTE (Calantyr @ May 19 2006, 08:45 AM) *
And Candice, you actually DO sign away your morals when you sign up. You agree to follow the orders of your superior officer whether it can mean your death or the death of others. If people could pick and choose what orders to follow then the entire military would fall to pieces. That's why if you ever refuse an order there is an inquiry, even if you were following the 'Rules of War' and not shooting civilians. There is still an inquiry into whether you were justified in disobeying.

But they do sometimes rule that the person was justified in disobeying a superior officer, do they not? I still think it becomes a very scary scenario when a person's morals don't enter into their decisions when they are serving in the armed forces. If by some horrible chance I had made a career out of being in the army, I would refuse to do things like torture prisoners or serve in a war that I felt was unjust. And I think I would be completely justified in doing so. Yes, people in the army DO sign up to kill others. Obviously they would not sign up for that if their morals would not allow it. But they do not sign up to commit war crimes. And if they feel something falls under that category, then by all means they should speak up and have the inquiry. Just because an inquiry happens, it doesn't mean that whoever judges such things will find that they were wrong in what they did. To say that they should just follow the orders, even when they feel that something horrible and unjust is happening is just foolish, in my opinion.

QUOTE (pgrmdave @ May 26 2006, 08:59 AM) *
I cannot be arrogent nor cowardly enough to say that it should be okay for others to die, but I don't think that I should be put in harms way.

I really do not think it's cowardly at all to not fight in a war. It is never cowardly to stand up for what you believe. I believe that killing is wrong, and I refuse to kill another human being. In situations like Hitler...I may well have trained as a nurse and offered help in that respect, if I felt there was no other way to stop what was happening other than war. But that's a really extreme case. In most cases...there is no way I would participate at all, even in that aspect.
Witless
QUOTE (Calantyr @ May 19 2006, 04:45 PM) *
QUOTE (Witless @ May 19 2006, 12:54 PM) *

QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 19 2006, 11:41 AM) *

When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.


Ah.. so as long as you can't see the ones you kill then it's 'out of sight, out of mind?'


Hey Witless, our taxes pay for the war machine. We're killers too.


Well, I pay my taxes to be allowed to live here. If someone chooses to use the money I gave them to kill people, I certainly wasn't involved in the process to let it be done. Just like someone that makes cuttlery in a cuttlery factory certainly isn't responsible for people being stabbed in the street.

What would worry more than people refusing to fight in iraq would be if not a single person in the military did. That would have scared me a lot if none did. I mean... where would we stop. Would we say it's stupid for soldiers to refuse to torture people if ordered to? Would we say they were foolish if someone ordered them to rape and pillage villages and they refused? Course we wouldn't, we'd (I hope) assume the person giving out the orders had gone insane, or at least lost his way.

I'd guess that's what people thought when they were told they were carpet bombing and shooting up a country for no reason.
Sir Psycho Sexy
QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ May 18 2006, 05:32 PM) *
and note that just war has no bombing raids, and very few- if any casulaties.


Is that a direct quote from the Big Fluffy Book of Happy War or are you paraphrasing?
Calantyr
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 28 2006, 11:36 AM) *
QUOTE (Witless @ May 19 2006, 01:54 PM) *

QUOTE (devils_daughter @ May 19 2006, 11:41 AM) *

When I said bomb pilot, I know it's fighting, but what I classify as fighting is the stuff you do on the ground. Like hands-on combat fighting.


Ah.. so as long as you can't see the ones you kill then it's 'out of sight, out of mind?'

You'd have to see them to kill them.


The terrorists who piloted the planes into the World Trade Centre couldn't see the people inside the building, are you saying they didn't kill them?

The people who dropped the nuclear bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima didn't kill anyone because they couldn't see them?

Saddam Hussein's troops using chemical weapons against the Kurds wern't killers because they didn't see them while they died?

It's a nice little mentality I guess. I could place time-delayed bombs all around London and I wouldn't be a killer when they detonate. I mean I wouldn't see the people die, would I?

QUOTE (candice @ May 28 2006, 12:59 PM) *
QUOTE (Calantyr @ May 19 2006, 08:45 AM) *

And Candice, you actually DO sign away your morals when you sign up. You agree to follow the orders of your superior officer whether it can mean your death or the death of others. If people could pick and choose what orders to follow then the entire military would fall to pieces. That's why if you ever refuse an order there is an inquiry, even if you were following the 'Rules of War' and not shooting civilians. There is still an inquiry into whether you were justified in disobeying.

But they do sometimes rule that the person was justified in disobeying a superior officer, do they not? I still think it becomes a very scary scenario when a person's morals don't enter into their decisions when they are serving in the armed forces. If by some horrible chance I had made a career out of being in the army, I would refuse to do things like torture prisoners or serve in a war that I felt was unjust. And I think I would be completely justified in doing so. Yes, people in the army DO sign up to kill others. Obviously they would not sign up for that if their morals would not allow it. But they do not sign up to commit war crimes. And if they feel something falls under that category, then by all means they should speak up and have the inquiry. Just because an inquiry happens, it doesn't mean that whoever judges such things will find that they were wrong in what they did. To say that they should just follow the orders, even when they feel that something horrible and unjust is happening is just foolish, in my opinion.



It's only justified if the orders went against the Rules of War and the current Rules of Engagement. If it does not contravene either of these then the soldier has no justification in disobeying. That is why I specificaly mentioned the shooting of prisoners earlier. Such things are considered War Crimes and are against these rules of law, so disobeying an order to carry them out is justified.

Different countries have different rules on soldiers opting out of a conflict alltogether though. In the UK soldiers can get a waver to take part in specific theatres of operation. This is reviewed by a comittee and is generally allowed on religious, moral, or political grounds. It can, however, be denied and the final say is in a second and *final* appeals comittee. If you are still denied, you have to go. There are no ifs and buts about it. However if you are still sent it's generally accepted that you are put in a non-combat role. Supplies, logistics, stuff like that.

In such an event the soldier is not 'disobeying'. They are simply following procedure, one that they agreed to follow when signing up.
Witless
It's human nature to be bothered by what we do. Saying someone that signs up to the military because at the time of sign up felt like it was a good idea, is a kin to saying, 'with the greatest of ease, all men have a morale, "on/off" switch.

Hard as it maybe to accept, some people's morale compass says, no means no, no matter what they may have said yesterday.
I'd hate for a world so black and white that it had no room for a person to say, "you know what, I was wrong to sign up for this crap, this is retarded".
What an awful, awful world that would be. I certainly hope I don't end up in many situations that require me to have to turn my back on something I thought was a great idea when I started. But, well, this is the real world, and sometimes things don't work like how you thought.

When you're talking about the military and taking life for what is in my opinion a rather rediculously petty reason, I think it's only right that a lot of people in the military said, "you know what, screw it, this isn't what I wanted at all". I cannot see how that makes any person an idiot. I question more the people that regretted getting into that situation, but carried on anyway despite. The guys on the front line that have seen some messed up stuff. I really hope for their sake they weren't having doubts and carried on with their duty anyhow. They don't get to take back what they done so they pretty much have to live with it for life.

History has proven that a lot of people have come away from doing that pretty screwed up mentally. I say if you start to regret and want out.. and it's life taking we're talking about. Then by all means, get out.

I said in an earlier post it's not a normal job. If you go to work in that environment you do things that result in people dying. Forever.. you know dead people, destroyed lives. Things that people on these forums here will probably never face. I can't describe enough my opinion of how nasty and dirty war is.

So I say again, if people regret decisions that put them in a place where they are going to be such a situation. I wouldn't for a second consider someone wanting out to be a stupid thing.
Calantyr
QUOTE (Witless @ May 29 2006, 04:00 AM) *
It's human nature to be bothered by what we do. Saying someone that signs up to the military because at the time of sign up felt like it was a good idea, is a kin to saying, 'with the greatest of ease, all men have a morale, "on/off" switch.

Hard as it maybe to accept, some people's morale compass says, no means no, no matter what they may have said yesterday.
I'd hate for a world so black and white that it had no room for a person to say, "you know what, I was wrong to sign up for this crap, this is retarded".
What an awful, awful world that would be. I certainly hope I don't end up in many situations that require me to have to turn my back on something I thought was a great idea when I started. But, well, this is the real world, and sometimes things don't work like how you thought.

When you're talking about the military and taking life for what is in my opinion a rather rediculously petty reason, I think it's only right that a lot of people in the military said, "you know what, screw it, this isn't what I wanted at all". I cannot see how that makes any person an idiot. I question more the people that regretted getting into that situation, but carried on anyway despite. The guys on the front line that have seen some messed up stuff. I really hope for their sake they weren't having doubts and carried on with their duty anyhow. They don't get to take back what they done so they pretty much have to live with it for life.

History has proven that a lot of people have come away from doing that pretty screwed up mentally. I say if you start to regret and want out.. and it's life taking we're talking about. Then by all means, get out.

I said in an earlier post it's not a normal job. If you go to work in that environment you do things that result in people dying. Forever.. you know dead people, destroyed lives. Things that people on these forums here will probably never face. I can't describe enough my opinion of how nasty and dirty war is.

So I say again, if people regret decisions that put them in a place where they are going to be such a situation. I wouldn't for a second consider someone wanting out to be a stupid thing.



Wanting to get out of the situation is NOT a stupid thing, and they are correct for wanting to if it is against their moral compass.

What is stupid is agreeing to a contract and taking an oath to be used as a weapon and then seemingly being surprised when you are expected to follow through. I can really only agree with it if the person was ignorant to what his duty would entail. When a person joins an armed force they agree to obey, kill when told, die when told, and to obey the rules of warfare. It's a very sobre occasion and the individual has to be made sure they know what this will entail, they become part of something bigger than just them and lives depend on them. If the rules are not followed and abhorrant stuff occurs, you can get the hell out though. To say thats okay and have peoples lives depend on you, then deciding to go back on your word.... that's not pretty.

In your words, "What an awful, awful world that would be" when no promises are worth anything. When no contract, agreement, or law can be believed. It would be a world of constant fear and suffering. But of course that is only if we take it to the extremes you suggest.

Like I said there are ways that you can avoid fighting if it is against your moral code. There is a proceedure for it. One you agreed to follow. You can even get yourself discharged. You don't have to continue with those immoral actions, there is a way out. It just seems stupid to put yourself in the position in the first place if you are unwilling to follow through.

That's why I wouldn't willingly join up. I know that I could very well be forced into the situation where I would be forced to choose between my duty and my conscience, and even the proceedures available would not be enough to save either. When you throw peoples lives into the equation it makes it even more impossible.
Witless
I'd agree if the army were a normal job, where the consequences of leaving were something like, screwed up paper work, or business' collapsing.

But the consequences of leaving an army during the time of war is a less efficient military killing machine. I reckon promises are worth breaking for that reason. Simple as.
pgrmdave
QUOTE
I really do not think it's cowardly at all to not fight in a war. It is never cowardly to stand up for what you believe. I believe that killing is wrong, and I refuse to kill another human being.


Perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't think that it's cowardly to not fight, rather, it would be cowardly of me to say that a war is just and right, but that only other people from my country should be harmed, I should remain safe. If I feel that a war is just, I should be willing to fight in it, if I feel it is unjust, I should be willing to stand up against it.
Calantyr
QUOTE (Witless @ May 29 2006, 12:15 PM) *
I'd agree if the army were a normal job, where the consequences of leaving were something like, screwed up paper work, or business' collapsing.

But the consequences of leaving an army during the time of war is a less efficient military killing machine. I reckon promises are worth breaking for that reason. Simple as.


I'd really like to be able to agree with you, having to argue my point is leaving a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. I just think the logic is sound.
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