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michael1384
With the release of The Da vinci Code there have been many more programmes about stuff like that. There have been programs on the nostic gospels and the truth behind the film. There has also been a great uproar from the church about it. Personally I think the church should be able to just say, "Throw what you like at us, we're sure we've got it right."

What do you think about all this?
monkey_called_narth
i personally think the devinchi code is stupid. i have a whole rant on myspace, and perhapes ill moe it here as well. my objections are all about the painting itself.

anyway, as an atheist i dont belive in god. this all seems to me like some strange conspiracy theory in order to make money. *shrugs*
michael1384
I have just looked at the tv guide and have seen about 4 programs about either the da vinci code or something else biblical on right now!
Witless
Well... my opinion is simple this. Unlike most faith's christianity changes a lot, both with time, and with location. Christians are different in different countries and they seem to change to fit what works with the times.

I don't really think of things as a conspiracy as such. It's more that... certain things weren't accepted because of taboos of certain time periods, so were just supressed a bit.

An example would be that during really conservative times, the clergy didn't want to acknowledge Christ having a sex life, so didn't want to portray him as a married and sexually active guy. So any references to such a thing would be not talked about.. and then eventually supressed and denied all together.

Another would be Mary's age. During the time period of Jesus' birth, 13 year olds being sexually active, being married and having children wasn't un heard of. But in times since then, it's become seen as very wrong. So it's another thing that is very rarely spoken of.
Calantyr
A lot of people are idiots. Probably most people. Even though the Da Vinci code was a work of fiction, is sold as fiction, and everyone has admitted that it is fiction... people want to believe.

It's a bit like Atlantis. The huge modern interest in Atlantis is only because someone wrote a work of fiction about it one hundred years or so. Theres such a romantic aura about it that people choose to believe in it even though theres not a scrap of evidence about it. Peoples desire for self-deception really is astounding.

Information about the Gnostic gospels has been around for as long as more canon (arf!) ones have. That's why the Churches had so many councils around the time Christianity was developed, they needed to work out which ones would be accepted and which ones wouldn't.

The thing is... none of this Gnostic works (if they are true) would really hurt the faith. All they can do is add more circumstantial evidence to the underlining story being true, but just that it is percieved slightly wrong. It's nothing that can bring down the Church, only generate more interrest and belief in it. In that vein, the Churches anger over it could be seen as a calculated move to generate more interest in the subject as to get more people into the faith.

I mean if you are heavily sceptical already, why would they bother you? It's just more stories and legends. It's only people who may be swayed into the faith in the first place who really give much of a damn.
monkey_called_narth
^im with him ^

actually it was custom to sell your daughter off to the richest man possible the moment she started her period becasue she could begin having babies.

i decided to move the little rant here... here goes.

My bother just entered the house after seing the De Vinci code, and he immidiatly exclaimed about how real it was. His reason? Becasue if you move the girl (mary m.) her head is resting on the shoulder of Jesus. Sure, if you could move the girl her head might be resting on the shoulder of "christ", but the point is that you cant fucking move the damn girl. There is no posible way for anyone to move the girl in the painting so that her head would be resting on "christ's" shoulder. How do i know this you might ask? Well, aside from the aesthetic problems that would cause in the painting, causing it to be heavy on that side. In other words, removing all forms of axial-asemetrical value to it. The painting in question is painted on a WALL of a monistary kitchen. It's on a WALL. It also painted in... yes thats right... its a freaking fresco. You cant possibly freaking move it... Without removing all the plaster. For those of you who do not know what a fresco is- a fresco is a painting of water collors on wet plaster. Anouther interesting fact is that they cut a door out of the painting. thats right, some smart little monk decided to cut a door out of De Vinci's last supper.



^ look its a door^

Some of you might claim that De vinci was an artistic geniuse and that if you could move her she would be leaning on the shoulder of christ... ok. I can admit that he was in fact a geniuse.



The pictures kinnda small, but after spending the last twenty minets of my time trying to figure out a way to place the chick next to "christ" without having the hand there... or making it look really really bad. I've found that there is no realistic way to move the chick without moving christ as well. so to this i have to say... couldn't be fucking done. Also note the Aesthetic rant above and how that since he's such an artistic geniouse, I dont see why he would do such a thing.



Just so you know, that wasnt ment to be a girl either.

I did however find that there was one person that does happen to be easily moved in the picture.



so clearly your christ is a freaking homosexual.

<edited to remove curssing... sorry>
Calantyr
QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ May 30 2006, 08:07 PM) *
Stuffsies!


Links no worky!

Your brothers argument seems a bit odd. It's effectively saying "If you change the physical evidence to fit our beliefs, then our beliefs seem true!"

That's a pretty dangerous road to go down.
Astarael
Placing your faith and beliefs somewhere because of a questionably-researched work of fiction is both dangerous and stupid. If you want to believe a variant of Dan Brown's ideas after exhaustive research of your own, fine. But blindly following something that has "FICTION" stamped right there on the spine is a silly way to determine your beliefs.
bryden42
QUOTE (Astarael @ Jun 1 2006, 04:49 PM) *
But blindly following something......... is a silly way to determine your beliefs.

ok so i am quoting you out of context, but isnt the above statement exactly what "Faith" is. Proof denies "Faith". you cannot have "Faith" in something that can be proven.

I was having a discussion with a friend the other day about the fact that Jedi had not been accepted by the government as a religion. He was saying that it was stupid that people had put Jedi down on the census form and that how could people have done that, My argument back (playing devils advocate) was that I can believe whatever I like if i choose to put jedi on my form and believe that I am a follower of a belief that the force exists who is to say that I am wrong, can you prove that I am wrong, no, no more than I can prove that jehovah does not exist.

I think that there is a little bit of fiction at the begining of every religion.
markslut
QUOTE (Astarael @ Jun 1 2006, 04:49 PM) *
Placing your faith and beliefs somewhere because of a questionably-researched work of fiction is both dangerous and stupid. If you want to believe a variant of Dan Brown's ideas after exhaustive research of your own, fine. But blindly following something that has "FICTION" stamped right there on the spine is a silly way to determine your beliefs.


Like Scientology - a religion for rich people about aliens created by a scifi authour?
michael1384
QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ May 30 2006, 08:07 PM) *
so clearly your christ is a freaking homosexual.

laugh.gif Interesting post. I can see it now.................I can't think of a good name for the film.
Libitha
When I first watched the da vinci code I thought maybe because the church would want to cover it up for lots of reasons and now the church still wouldnt except it because the story basically says they killed hundreds/thousands of people to hide the secert but the more i read and watch on tv the more i think it is just a money making thing. Thier evidence is something you see after you have been told. Like the painting monkey_called_narth was writing about you could move anyone for them to create a relationship with jesus.

soz I dont have anyone else I can rant to because everyone I know either havent see it or are very religious or just dont care.
QUOTE (monkey_called_narth @ May 30 2006, 08:07 PM) *
so clearly your christ is a freaking homosexual.



lol hmmmm just think what the church would say to that laugh.gif
Cookieflair
I just believe that God is a made up entity so us humans can feel better about ourselves. Because, come on everyone would like to think an omniscient force who could give us favour and perform miracles really existed. Religion is just a way of living life by the rules, not letting go.

Who actually did write the bible?

Oh and about the fresco last supper thing. I saw a program on it and the last supper took a long time to complete so was not painted on wet plaster.
Libitha
QUOTE (Cookieflair @ Jun 14 2006, 05:44 PM) *


Who actually did write the bible?




Well thats still being debated today but according to what I was taught at school the new testament is ment to be written some of the deciples(sorry can not spell) but I'm not sure about the old testament most people believe it was a god influencing a man.
Thats all I can remember. hope it helps unsure.gif
Cookieflair
QUOTE (Libitha @ Jun 14 2006, 11:29 PM) *
QUOTE (Cookieflair @ Jun 14 2006, 05:44 PM) *



Who actually did write the bible?




Well thats still being debated today but according to what I was taught at school the new testament is ment to be written some of the deciples(sorry can not spell) but I'm not sure about the old testament most people believe it was a god influencing a man.
Thats all I can remember. hope it helps unsure.gif


Oh ok thanks.
The bible was probably just a book that got written randomly or a way of life that was elaborated upon. I bet when it all became "popular" the church was like WoOooOo! I make it sound like some "fad" or something!


Witless
This post will start slightly off topic but end on topic (promise).

QUOTE
just believe that God is a made up entity so us humans can feel better about ourselves. Because, come on everyone would like to think an omniscient force who could give us favour and perform miracles really existed. Religion is just a way of living life by the rules, not letting go.


I have a theory on how religion started (in my opinion).
A lot of religions across the world rever the sun, the sky and the moon. The reason is that it doesn't take a science education to realise the sky feeds the ground. It feeds it with rain, it feeds it with heat (from the sun), and with light and darkness.

With humans desire to seek reason and intent behind everything that happens, it didn't take long before someone way back with intelligence decided that there must be concious thought behind why the rain chooses to rain when it does, and why the sun chooses to shine when it does. Before long people were asking the sky for things. Offering it things to provide them for what they needed make plants and food grow, drink, and eat. To stay warm when they needed, etc etc.

As with all cultural things and with humans moving around the world, religion slowly evolved as society did. In some areas it grew more complex and only held weak links with it's original form (though in some it still remains fairly similar to it's origins.. with making offerings to the sun and gods to provide for them).

This leads me nicely onto Christianity. Christianity has a quite fundamental difference from most other religions other than customs. It changes with geographical location extremely rapidly. Islam for examples has near identical traditions across the world. The only difference between people is interpretation. Christianity has differences with interpretation too. But on top of that traditions and culture of the religion are wildly different with location. I can guarentee you that a catholic community from the UK, from eastern europe and from the USA will all have some different traditions. Now add national differences on top of that. Then place upon that differences in interpretation, and you create some often startling differences of what is supposed to be the same sect of the same religion.

For me the conspiracy if you want to call it that is just people are noticing inconsistancy in their own religion since religion isn't static and changes with time. And with christianity being one of the most dynamic religions around people have started looking for 'other' reasons for things that aren't making sense in their heads.

I do believe there are some conspiracies in the church.. but in my mind those are merely because the Christian church was a lot more intwined with politics than it is today. So certain things that were deemed sensitive were "messed with" or hidden. But I don't really buy into all of it. Some things are conspracies may or may not be true.

But meh, religions never been static before.. in the future it will change again, and people will wonder whether they are told then is lies too when they look back and realise things we are being told now are different to the 'new truths'.
Star_of_Lei
QUOTE (Cookieflair @ Jun 14 2006, 05:44 PM) *


Who actually did write the bible?


I am betting he had a beard.

I wonder if it won like the booker prize back in the day? And what was the prize? Coz I sure as hell aint never seen no sticker saying: Winner of the booker prize AD 35. (35 because I think that the desciples should fully have gotten their asses into line and written their accounts in a year, then the next year would have been re-writes and stuff) And can you imagine the after awards party? Cor, they must have gotten down with the beat. Hmmm, I may need to go research this further.
Izzy
Ok, the thing is, even if Da Vinci did paint it so that Mary M. was resting on "jesus'" shoulder, it wouldn't make it true. He's just an artist. If a second grader paints a picture of a UFO abducting a talking pink bear with butterfly wings, and it for some reason becomes a masterpeice, that wouldn't make it true.

And another thing, I'm sure we've all heard of Harry Potter. It was written as fiction. Do you believe in wizards and witches? No. Well, if you put the same theory to the Da vinci Code and the bible, anyone with half a brain could figure out they are also just a bunch of made up stuff.

I think religions started so that people would behave, and do what they were supposed to do. If not, they would go to "hell", and burn or whatever it is. Just another way for Kings and churches and other people to have control of their contries and remain in power, without everyone running around killing each other, and stealing and stuff.
monkey_called_narth
well since we are getting thechnical. he painted it in a fresco... it was in wet plaster. thats what a fesco is, well bon fresco anyway. if it was painted on plaster itself it probibly wouldnt be in existance anymore. art history major.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my personal veiws on religion date back to pre history. "in the beggining", heh, you see that most of the tribes were nomadic. females were the leaders becasue they, well, had babies. the tribes were also hunters and gatherers. the vast majority of this is proven in the artwork consisting of hunts, and small dolls depicting female- never found male dolls.

once each culture develops animal husbandry and argiculture you find slow changes in the way the tribes are set up. note, these developents took hundreds of years in themselves. as they develop this technology you find that the tribes sart settling inn on defined place- the development of the idea of property, male dominance as it relates to the idea of property, and religion. in this little shpeel in only talking about religion so on to the next paragraph.

as these tribes develop the technology, you find that each tribe in istelf had a surplus. the tribes were producing more food then needed to get by on a daily basis. becuase of this surplus, some members of the tribes were able to not work all of the time. this "free time" gave these diffent members of the tribes the abilty to look at the stars, notice weather patterns, test diffrent plants for there medical usefullness, and come up with theorys. thus you hav ethe development of the first religion. these people then became the "shawmen", "medicen men", "whatever they hell you would like to call them" of the tribes. there knowlage of what was going on around them cause them to become invaluble to the tribe, people would begin to trade things i.e. food, from the knowlage they might gain from these people. this also is the creation of the first class system, and the raw beginings of a slave state.

christianity in itself was developed around 40 a.d. or atleast thats the earliest documentation of it. when you examine the other religions of that time, and in the area you find that christiantity is just this big combination of the three main religions of that time. i bet you can guess two of them, and the third i cant remimber the name of. its been a long time since my "religion and art 112" class, but the class was basicly the study of religions and culture, via art.

you also find that revlations is tottaly undertandable if you you replace all refreances to "god" and "religion" with "cesar nero" and "rome". there are also some other line you have to draw, but yall should definatly look into it.

basicly, christianity was created as a means of revolt against the christians roman masters.

---------------------------------------

im not taking the time to edit this, im just not in the mood currently. all miss spellings and typos... please jsut let them go.
Saratina
- That "girl" is actually the apostle John. If you look at other paintings of John by Da Vinci, he is portrayed as feminine, young, and beardless.

- To have Mary in the painting, Da Vinci would have had to exclude one of the disciples, as there are only thirteen people in the picture including Jesus. Why would he leave out John, "the disciple Jesus loved"?

- Even if Da Vinci did paint Mary in The Last Supper, how does that prove anything?

- The alleged missing books of the Bible are what scholars refer to as the "Gnostic Gospels". They are counterfeit books dreamed up by the Gnostics CENTURIES after the death of Christ, claiming to be written by Thomas, Judas, et cetera.

- A brief reading of the Gospel of Thomas reveals gross incongruency with Dan Brown's assertion that Jesus wanted to lift up Mary's holy divinity and whatnot, as this so-called gospel depicts Jesus discussing how He will "make [Mary] a male" so that she can be exalted.

- Opus Dei is a real branch of Catholicism. They are not a cult, and they are not secretive or criminals.

- The Priory of Sion did not exist until the 1940's (I think, I may be off by a few decades). Brown claims that it has existed since the days of Christ to protect the lineage of Jesus and Mary.

- Speaking of which, there is absolutely no historical evidence that would point to Jesus and Mary having been married or having offspring.

- If Christ had been married, it would be reasonable to assume that He would have said from the cross, "take care of my wife" instead of or along with "take care of my mother." Also, when Paul talks about marriage in his epistles, would he not have used Christ as an example if He had in fact been married?

- Brown claims that the Aramaic word for "companion," as taken from the Gospel of Thomas' reference to Mary, was synonymous with "spouse." That's great except that said gospel was not written in Aramaic.


I may add to this later; I find the entire story fascinating, as well as the fact that some sixty percent of Brits who read it believe that it is factual.
pgrmdave
QUOTE
some sixty percent of Brits who read it believe that it is factual.


Yay! It's not just Americans who are stupid and gullible!
Izzy
......
QUOTE (Dan Brown@ Special Illustrated Edition @ page= the page where it's before the "For Blythe..Again. More Than Ever.)
All characters of this book are fictitious, and resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, is completely coincidential.

1. Leonardo, da Vinci, 1452-1519 - Appreciation - Fiction.2. Art museum curators - Crimes against- Fiction. 3. Secret Societies - Fiction. 4.Cryptographers - Fiction. 5. Paris (France) - Fiction. 6. Grail - Fiction.

How do people beleive in something that has fiction written all over it???...


QUOTE (Saratina @ Jun 19 2006, 08:46 PM) *
- The Priory of Sion did not exist until the 1940's (I think, I may be off by a few decades). Brown claims that it has existed since the days of Christ to protect the lineage of Jesus and Mary.



QUOTE (Dan Brown @ Divci Code Special Edition page 1(?))
Fact: The Priory of Sion- a European secret society founded in 1099- is a real organization. In 1975, Paris's Bibliotheque Nationale discovered parchmentsknown as the Les Dossiers Secrets, identifying numerous members of the Priory of Sion, including Sir Isaac Newton, Botticelli, Victor Hugo, and Leonardo da Vinci.

I don't think the editors would have let Brown right that in his book if it weren't true, with "Fact:" written right in front of it.
pgrmdave
They aren't trying to edit it for factual errors, though. Most likely, they read it and assumed, just like you did, that Dan Brown did enough research that he's correct. I'm not saying whether or not he is, but that the types of editors who were working on his book were most likely not going to check his facts.

edit:
Here, I did a bit of research online and I came up with this:

QUOTE
One of those alleged facts is featured prominently at the beginning of "The Da Vinci Code." On a page headed "Fact," Dan Brown says that the Priory of Sion, which is central to the secret at the heart of his book, is a real organization. He says that at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris — the French National Library — you can find proof that it was founded in Jerusalem at the time of the Crusades. That proof is in some documents known as the Dossiers Secrets or Secret Files.

So 60 Minutes decided to check out those Secret Files. The Bibliothèque Nationale made exact copies for the 60 Minutes team to look at because they said the originals were too fragile to handle.

We soon found what we were looking for. One document gives the history of the Priory of Sion dating back to the 12th Century, and there's a list of Grand Masters that includes such illustrious names as Sir Isaac Newton and Leonardo Da Vinci. This information would be astounding — except for one thing.

"I do know what was going on in Jerusalem in the 12th Century, I do know. I spent 40 years working on it and what these people say — did not happen," says Jonathan Riley-Smith, the former professor of ecclesiastical history at Cambridge University and a leading authority on the Crusades.

French researchers have also questioned the authenticity of these secret files ever since they were deposited in the Bibliotheque Nationale in the 1960's. Their attention came to focus on a man named Pierre Plantard, who claimed to be the current Grand Master of the Priory of Sion. But evidence at the police headquarters in Paris tells a different story. Historian Claude Charlot, who is director of police archives, says there’s a file on Plantard, who died in 2000, showing that during World War II he was investigated by the secret services. So what was their conclusion?

"The investigation said, 'He is a young man whose mind — as we say in French — is cloudy. He is a fantasist; he is not a serious person,'" Charlot said, with the help of a translator.

One of Plantard's fantasies was to set up right-wing, anti-Semitic organizations, similar in style to medieval orders of chivalry. But in reality these organizations existed only on paper.

"I noticed that in one of the police reports it was noted that his organization 'French National Renewal' was described as a ‘phantom group.' That he claimed it had 3,000 members and the police found it had only four," Bradley remarked.

After the war, Plantard moved to the small French town of Annemasse. In 1953 he was given a six-month sentence for fraud — but three years later, he was again setting up a new organization. Under French law, it’s necessary to deposit the statutes of every new association with the authorities. That’s how a government official there was able to give us information about it. It was called "The Priory of Sion," named not for 12th-century Jerusalem, but for the local mountain close to where he lived. Ten years later and now back in Paris, Plantard gave the Priory of Sion a fictitious pedigree by drawing up that list of Grand Masters and depositing it in the Bibliotheque Nationale. Charlot says that apart from that list, no historian has found any evidence that the Priory of Sion existed before Plantard set up his version in 1956.


from http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/27/...009_page2.shtml

Now, who's more likely to check their facts better, the editors of a fiction book, or the people at CBS news?
Cookieflair
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ Jun 18 2006, 07:06 PM) *

I think religions started so that people would behave, and do what they were supposed to do. If not, they would go to "hell", and burn or whatever it is. Just another way for Kings and churches and other people to have control of their contries and remain in power, without everyone running around killing each other, and stealing and stuff.


Its all about the paranoia workings of the human mind.
kuraj
I found this web site with a trailer for a new movie on the Priory of Sion. The producers claim to actually be in contact with this ultra secret society. Clips from interviews are seen, and one has to wonder the implications if such a group does exist, since they are said to essentially be protectors of the bloodline of Jesus and Mary Magdalene.



The trailer can be found at www.bloodline-themovie.com



Any thoughts?
Calantyr
QUOTE (Saratina @ Jun 20 2006, 01:46 AM) *
I may add to this later; I find the entire story fascinating, as well as the fact that some sixty percent of Brits who read it believe that it is factual.


100% of people who take such surveys are idiots.

Seriously, you'd be hard-pressed to walk into a book store and find someone who believes this rot. It kinda helps that it's sold in the fiction section.
Astarael
Since someone mentioned it, I find Scientology to be almost as silly as revering Dan Brown's tripe. It was invented by L. Ron Hubbard (a science fiction writer with a drug problem) and taken as a whole it sounds like the plot of some sort of bad Godzilla movie that can't even get the age of the universe right.
I'm too foggy-headed to get philosophical about the roots of faith, but Dan Brown's book lines up with your argument nicely. If you believe his nonsense after reading the book, you believe because he's convinced you. That belief is based on (badly researched) evidence, so by your definition you can't have faith in it anyway.
Moosh
QUOTE (Astarael @ Jun 30 2006, 05:13 AM) *
It was invented by L. Ron Hubbard (a science fiction writer with a drug problem)


L. Ron Hubbard? Oops, I think I refered to him in my RS exam as Elron Hubbard.
hyperlittlefaleria
a lot of ppl were really phsyced about it at first just bcuz it had the mona lisa painting on it... and the church is boring
but i have no idea about the whole davinci shit
im only 8
-val
Cookieflair
QUOTE (hyperlittlefaleria @ Jun 30 2006, 07:03 PM) *
a lot of ppl were really phsyced about it at first just bcuz it had the mona lisa painting on it... and the church is boring
but i have no idea about the whole davinci shit
im only 8
-val


I cant believe your only 8. that is so cool.
hyperlittlefaleria
QUOTE (Cookieflair @ Jun 30 2006, 11:45 AM) *
QUOTE (hyperlittlefaleria @ Jun 30 2006, 07:03 PM) *

a lot of ppl were really phsyced about it at first just bcuz it had the mona lisa painting on it... and the church is boring
but i have no idea about the whole davinci shit
im only 8
-val


I cant believe your only 8. that is so cool.


well rite about now i would say, "believe it!" but its naruto's gay phrase so i'll jsut leave it alone
-VaL
PsychWardMike
Casual swearing while the rules forbid it? Calling things gay? I can believe 8.

Anyway as far as the book goes, I think that it's better to first realize the book is of questionable literary merit (I usually say that it's like summer action blockbuster... entertaining, but no depth) and then go on to say that the unwashed masses need to realize that it's fiction and nothing more.

But yes, the church should suck it up. They're no longer in a position to legislate the morality of the world - just their own followers. They need to be more secure in their fatih and stop trying to run the secular world.
Calantyr
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Jul 2 2006, 06:52 PM) *
Casual swearing while the rules forbid it? Calling things gay? I can believe 8.

Anyway as far as the book goes, I think that it's better to first realize the book is of questionable literary merit (I usually say that it's like summer action blockbuster... entertaining, but no depth) and then go on to say that the unwashed masses need to realize that it's fiction and nothing more.

But yes, the church should suck it up. They're no longer in a position to legislate the morality of the world - just their own followers. They need to be more secure in their fatih and stop trying to run the secular world.


Agree on all points...

Except for the last thing about stop trying to run the secular world. That's sorta their right. The Holy See maintains an internationaly recognised state, the Vatican Enclave in Rome. Therefore they are an organisation that stands firmly in two worlds, the spiritual and temporal. It's their right, and the right of every state, to act in accordance with their politics. And for the Holy See religion is their politics...

But they way they have gone about it seems rather childish. Then again maybe that's just layers of subterfuge concocted by Opus Dei.... beware the albino assassins!
Izzy
Does Opus Die only have recruitments and churches in France, or all over the world?
Calantyr
QUOTE (devils_daughter @ Jul 3 2006, 02:45 PM) *
Does Opus Die only have recruitments and churches in France, or all over the world?


All over the world. I think their headquarters are in Manhattan.
Mata
Not that they're a particularly mysterious sect, they're just a bit more medieval than the rest of the church.

If you want a wacky religion, try the Mormons. It's like looking at what Scientology will be like in 200 years time. Mormonism was started by a con-man who had a 'divine revelation' that led him to where The Book of Mormon had been hidden. This was an ancient text written on gold tablets. This would be quite convincing if he had let anyone else see them, but he didn't.

Actually, that's not quite accurate; he did show them to other people, only they had to pray really hard before they were allowed to see them. The book was only shown to a few people and one of them said that he couldn't see anything there. He was told to go away and pray harder. On returning he could suddenly see the book.

Joseph Smith, the con-man, didn't even show the book to his wife. The pages were apparently written in another language, and Smith was the only person who could translate them. He dictated the translation to his wife but here's the clever bit: he didn't need to look at the pages while doing it. He translated the whole thing without looking at it, then an angel came down and took the book away before anyone else could see it. His wife never saw it.

*cough fraud cough*
Ashbless
Still, all the Saints I've met are pretty nice normal people.
I picked up a copy of the book of Mormons somewhere but haven't had much interest in reading it yet. It generally lives on the bookshelf beside the bible and a small book of practical spellcasting. The bible's the only one I've looked at much and more to understand what my roomate's on about after he returns from bible study. Not too keen on bible study myself.
I do really like to be in the room when witnesses or mormons come to the door to preach at the friend who runs the bible study. You want to know your gospel if you show up on his door. He gets this delighted grin on his face and is more than happy about inviting them in for a discussion. Word has gotten around and he doesn't have many willing to try anymore. biggrin.gif
Witless
QUOTE (Mata @ Jul 18 2006, 01:26 PM) *
Mormonism was started by a con-man


Would I be smited by all the forumites if I were to say that the thought has often crossed my mind, that various con-men have been the founders of the various main (and some of the not so main) religions around today.

Or is that a thought that is going to earn me a lot of trouble?
PsychWardMike
Con men or not, though, most other religion starters weren't complete jackasses like Joseph Smith was.

Joseph Smith was called a prophet, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
LoLo
QUOTE (PsychWardMike @ Jul 18 2006, 08:28 AM) *
Con men or not, though, most other religion starters weren't complete jackasses like Joseph Smith was.

Joseph Smith was called a prophet, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb


I'm sure mormon people don't find their prophet a jackass, just like Christians don't find their prophet a jackass, or Islamic people their prophet a jackass etc. etc. etc.

Most stories of prophets are quite fantastical and unbelievable, but for whatever reason their followers follow them.

Also just to point out, most religious books seem to have been written by a claimed "divine revelation," I guess it could be said then that writers of most religious books are "con-men."
Astarael
*shrugs* Mormonism does sound odd, but I'm mainly struck by the "Emperor's New Clothes" description of the holy book.
bryden42
couldn't do mormonism, no cafeine and you are not allowed to eat till you are full you have to stop just prior or its considered gluttony! blink.gif
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